if they would stand behind me, i'd probably even give that dummy, the warrior, a try again.
Maybe we're just underestimating the effort that Turbine put into skirmish soldiers, and they took thousands of hours of actual gameplay into account when determining the AI ...
i.e.
warriors ~ champs, so we'll make them rush in and aggro as much as they can
archers ~ hunters, so we'll make them hide at the back in safety
etc.
Lucky there are no burg soldiers!
Duvi Vastin: "But whenever we take feedback on most game systems, such as character builds, economics, or especially anything to do with PvP, then we are forced to read very carefully between the lines of any and all player feedback, as it is all inevitably skewed by self-investment, self-interest, and a deeply subjective viewpoint that increases in direct proportion to how long or successfully a player has occupied a particular role."
Skirmish soldiers are "pets" for non-pet-using classes. If I wanted to spend my time micromanaging a pet, I'd run a pet using class. Perhaps you need to rethink what type of soldier you're using.
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
'Attack That One' to start off the usually set piece sub-encounters would be nice to be able to do more than once per minute (more if you pay your nickels and dimes for TP to lower it)
'Stay with me' is less needed than before when the dim behavior scripting had your lackey run out in front suicidally.
Maybe we're just underestimating the effort that Turbine put into skirmish soldiers, and they took thousands of hours of actual gameplay into account when determining the AI ...
i.e.
warriors ~ champs, so we'll make them rush in and aggro as much as they can
archers ~ hunters, so we'll make them hide at the back in safety
etc.
I agree. Its the whole reason why I went with a herbalist who does nothing but heal, for this very reason.
I'd also like control over the idiotic NPC's that you fight along side of. Especially in the Bruinen Skirmish, that one idiot npc always runs up to the two orcs standing in the middle for no reason, just so he can get you killed. Its totally stupid. And I'm sure Turbine did it on purpose.
Yes they are still doing that. (except it seems that that NPC gets killed and the skirmish is lost taking most of the SP with them ---- " Sorry Mr Elrond Half-Elf your son was too stupid and now he is dead and the Orcs are coming up the road to burn this place to the ground now" ) Makes me half think that they are doing it on purpose (except after seeing all the other problems)
One of my aggravations with Skirmish Soldiers is that we have to slot our Call Soldier and Direct Soldier buttons in our Skill Bars. These abilities are only ever useful in Skirms, but I don't want to have to dig through my list of skills every time I do a skirm to find them again.
When you enter a Skirm, you get a Soldier button right in the middle of your screen which lets you Call your soldier. I would like to see the Soldier buttons all appear when you start a Skirmish, and disappear when you can no longer control your Soldier.
In terms of actually controlling the Soldier, I think what I want to see could be reduced to Three buttons.
"Charge!" button (perhaps a little lance and pennon): Specifically directs your soldier to attack the selected target; toggles an Aggressive mode, where your soldier will seek out the nearest appropriate target when the current target is dead. Can still be directed to attack a specific target.
"Rally!" button (Bugle): Calls your soldier to where you are, and acts as a toggle to keep the soldier nearby. The soldier will still attack target which are in range (for melee types, this would include a short run).
"Formation" button (Two pairs of boots, one in front of the other): Orders your soldier to follow right behind you, and use nothing but passive abilities.
If your soldier has been defeated, and you are out of combat, clicking any of these buttons will call it back into service.
Maybe it's a while since I did the tutorial, but the impression I got was that your solider is inexperienced and a volunteer, to my mind it makes more sense that we should have more control over them not as little as we do. We use our experience to direct them in battle so they'll learn and get better, unlike what I often end up doing on my burglar, turning tails and using HIPS thus leaving them to their sorry fate after they pulled the entire courtyard in Tuckborough. It wouldn't even take much to improve it, a lower cooldown on 'direct soldier' would be a good start and anything else would be a bonus.
As for the sons of Elrond, I would like if they had a lower aggro radius so you could leave them out of the battle like the other NPCs in skirmishes, or make them both ranged. I really don't get the purpose of the two defilers either, they only get aggroed when the melee one goes around the barricade the wrong way.
As for the sons of Elrond, I would like if they had a lower aggro radius so you could leave them out of the battle like the other NPCs in skirmishes, or make them both ranged. I really don't get the purpose of the two defilers either, they only get aggroed when the melee one goes around the barricade the wrong way.
The two defilers are the "trigger" for the (useless) archers on the east bank. When the defilers are there, the archers 'cannot shoot through the rain'. When the defilers aren't there, the archers target a couple of areas and do trivial amounts of damage.
The problem is that, if Elrohir gets close enough, he will agro on the defilers and go after them...regardless of whatever else is going on.
The difficulty with the defilers is that they heal themselves and each other. If you can stun/mez/fear one of them (the one Elrohir isn't fighting) and knock the other one down quickly, you can dispose of them far more easily. In any case, you've got to actually help Elrohir or he'll get killed by the defilers.
I've recently rolled a lore-master as my fourth alt. I've only had minor problems with soldier AI on my other alts but playing a skirmish as a lore-master is very frustrating.
I dare say that more than a third of the time I spend in combat in a skirmish, my soldier is standing around doing nothing. I love that pets and soldiers stop shooting when I use blinding flash or any other crowd control skills, but this seems to confuse their AI in a profound way. The soldier just stops attacking altogether, even though there are other mobs around that are not CC'd. As a result of this, my "direct soldier" skill is constantly on cooldown, and still my soldier manages to ruin entire skirmishes on a regular basis. Running skirmishes with my lore-master has become a massively frustrating endeavour.
The soldiers are simply not working the way they should. There are two ways of fixing this in my view, either fix the flaws in the AI, or remove/drastically lower the cooldown on the direct soldier skill.
People are saying that removing the cooldown on the direct soldier skill will effectively turn soldiers into pets. I disagree. We have full control over pets and their skills, when and how they use them etc.
The store-bought reduction to the cooldown is not a solution. I will not spend my hard earned points in order to play a skirmish the way they are intended to be played, i.e. with a soldier that actually fulfills his given role.
For those of you rejecting this idea: how is a change to the cooldown on direct soldier a negative impact on your gameplay? If you don't want to direct your soldier that often, then don't. The way things are now impacts my gameplay in a very negative way, and I'd like to think more lore-master players have experienced these flaws in the soldier AI.
However, what I really want to see is the AI fixed.
Think about the posts in this thread... Person A wants "just one or two" additional controls. Person B wants "just one or two" additional controls, but they're *different* controls. Person C wants yet a third set of "just one or two" additional controls. And so on and so on... To satisfy the differing choices...you wind up with FULL control set...a set of pet controls. And that's just what those running non-pet classes do NOT want.
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
Want extra skills for your Soldier? Why not make the extra skills purchasable with Skirmish Points (and/or turbine points). Have a separate 2 slot skill bar and choose what skills you want in there. Want a Stop/Go command? Earn the points - train it at the skirmish trainer - slot it instead of an unwanted skill. Could have many different skills from Behaviour: Aggressive (on/off) attacks all mobs it sees. Defensive (on/off) a stand and hold the mobs mode. Cowardly (on/off) Runs away from mobs etc, to Skills: Stay/Go (on/off). Attack My Target (button). To Me, etc. and so on.
A player could then customise their Soldier exactly how they want - People who hate pets can just leave it or make even more intependent. Whilst Micro-managers get to choose what thier Soldier can do.
Heck, you could even make it so you can buy extra skill slots (upto say 4?) from Turbine or even earned via Skirmish points.
Worried about balance? Guys with more slots vs Guys with just 2 - Penalise a percentage loss in skirmish points for each new skill slot (For example).
Just chucking ideas about - but this would be a good solution to many of the problems and (irrespective of your opinion on the Store - ambivalent about it myself) a potential earner for Turbine. Win, Win. and no more stupid Soldiers.
Want extra skills for your Soldier? Why not make the extra skills purchasable with Skirmish Points (and/or turbine points). Have a separate 2 slot skill bar and choose what skills you want in there. Want a Stop/Go command? Earn the points - train it at the skirmish trainer - slot it instead of an unwanted skill. Could have many different skills from Behaviour: Aggressive (on/off) attacks all mobs it sees. Defensive (on/off) a stand and hold the mobs mode. Cowardly (on/off) Runs away from mobs etc, to Skills: Stay/Go (on/off). Attack My Target (button). To Me, etc. and so on.
A player could then customise their Soldier exactly how they want - People who hate pets can just leave it or make even more intependent. Whilst Micro-managers get to choose what thier Soldier can do.
Heck, you could even make it so you can buy extra skill slots (upto say 4?) from Turbine or even earned via Skirmish points.
Worried about balance? Guys with more slots vs Guys with just 2 - Penalise a percentage loss in skirmish points for each new skill slot (For example).
Just chucking ideas about - but this would be a good solution to many of the problems and (irrespective of your opinion on the Store - ambivalent about it myself) a potential earner for Turbine. Win, Win. and no more stupid Soldiers.
I would not be against paying TP for a PERMANENT skill bar for a skirmish soldier, similar to the captain or LM's pets.
personally, I'd like to equip my soldier with weapons and armour, to give them a bit more of a personalized look and more in the way of stats (damage type, for example)... but that's just playing on my interest in making the soldier less 'generic-looking' and better equipped...
but on topic, I don't mind more controls for the soldier... however, I haven't even touched the command buttons in any battle... could be that my archer, bannerguard, and sage don't need much directing, since my mains are traited to deal damage, and only require support...
For those of you rejecting this idea: how is a change to the cooldown on direct soldier a negative impact on your gameplay? If you don't want to direct your soldier that often, then don't. The way things are now impacts my gameplay in a very negative way.
ABSOLUTELY
I fail to see how Turbine giving the OPTION to those who care about it is seen as a negative. More options in an MMO is a good thing.
Dont like it?
Think its a bad idea?
DONT USE IT.
Regarding a store-bought "direct-soldier" cooldown reduction or removal,
as I suggested in my own thread a while back, if it was a purchaseable, permanent per-character passive trait, I would spend a good amount of points on it in a heartbeat.
I will not spend a solitary point on the ridiculous temporary cooldown reducers they have in the store now. Laughably useless. I would be very surprised to hear that anyone had ever bought one. (though to each their own I guess)
"And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this earth; and many of the children of Illuvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen"
My two cents (along with fervent prayers that someone from Turbine was actually paying attention... as unlikely as that might be).
Just got killed for the umpteenth time in a skirmish because my healer (who I've used skirmish marks to make all his traits higher than my level) just stands on beside me looking around while I get killed. No healing. Each time I target myself and click the direct soldier button it tells me that "I" am an invalid target.
How can I be an invalid target, when I'm the only one in the skirmish and the only reason I have a healer is to heal me???
So here's that fervent prayer... how about the soldiers go where we want them to (and not draw aggro) and the healer ally ACTUALLY heal instead of daydreaming in the middle of a battle.
My two cents (along with fervent prayers that someone from Turbine was actually paying attention... as unlikely as that might be).
Just got killed for the umpteenth time in a skirmish because my healer (who I've used skirmish marks to make all his traits higher than my level) just stands on beside me looking around while I get killed. No healing. Each time I target myself and click the direct soldier button it tells me that "I" am an invalid target.
How can I be an invalid target, when I'm the only one in the skirmish and the only reason I have a healer is to heal me???
So here's that fervent prayer... how about the soldiers go where we want them to (and not draw aggro) and the healer ally ACTUALLY heal instead of daydreaming in the middle of a battle.
For the Herbalist, when you give the attack command with the mob selected, THAT tells the Herbalist to heal YOU.
Like all soldiers, there are a couple of types of Lieutenant that soldiers won't "attack", or in the case of a Herbalist, they won't heal unless commanded to.
In all cases, I want my herbalist to stay as far behind as possible.
My wee hobbit runs in guns blazin'...
...
My wee hobbit dies miserably
...
I cry
Also, it might be a little too o.p. in some eyes but I might be nice to tell a herbalist who to heal or if you need more power vs. morale. Wili is very good at getting himself killed at the end of the 21st skirm so having dedicated healers plus a herbalist or two could make a nice difference.
For the Herbalist, when you give the attack command with the mob selected, THAT tells the Herbalist to heal YOU.
Like all soldiers, there are a couple of types of Lieutenant that soldiers won't "attack", or in the case of a Herbalist, they won't heal unless commanded to.
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
not sure why you think this. Obviously I've tried it both ways (many times) before posting.
I am hitting the command will I'm hitting the enemy... he stands there.
I target myself and hit the command... he stands there.
Bottom line, when I'm in any battle I don't stop hitting the enemy until they (or I'm) dead... Just think the healer (since he only has the one target... me) shouldn't stop healing me until the battles over (in other words, NEVER just stand there looking around), otherwise what's he's purpose?
I would surgest a skirish soilder positional relationship controlable raydar.
IE your soloing a skirish on a mini you place your soilder ahead of you to activate fights and get first agro.
but in a raid or fellowship this can lead to accidental pulls and unintentional chain pulls as your soilder out of conbat races ahead of you unexpectantly.
so the raydar would allow you to place him either behind you or to you side, this would hopefully over come some of the bad aspects of solders.
maybe allow a solider pluging in which we can control this
Does skirmish soldier need AI improvements, definetely!
When I play a squoshie, I need a protector to "alledgedly" gain and hold aggroe for me, at least in paper that is what they are supposed to do.
After having my protector summoned, and see how he operates, I renamed him to "Moron"
It seems "moron" likes to follow me, from way behind, after all the squoshie with out armor and resistance should get the aggroe first, we would not want the protector soldier to be endangered after all.
Then after I got the aggroe, since "Moron" was taking a smoke break, and I need to give him time to eat his doughnut, oh my how inconsiderate of me to expect him to come and get the aggroe off me, before finishing his break!
Then when I am down to a fourth of my hits, Moron finally realizes, oh look, my boss is getting her rear handed to her, I should try to help her. Lets go attack some other mob nowhere near to those attacking her!
Frankly, on the past few skirmishes, I no longer bother to summon the worthless piece of trash.
The AI needs fixing so it may become practical, what we have with the protector is a great lie towards its functionlaity. I frankly wish it would behave like my beast for the Loremaster, it attacks what I attack, now that would go al ong ways in being useful.
On the side of the Herbalist, she seems to do ok, but seems to have little interest in ever healing me when something else could be healed, maybe I should have the other players pay her instead...
I'd like to have some control - as in, simple Move / Don't Move style toggle. As there's no such thing, any soldiers that deal damage tend to cause a fuss every now and then by pulling more mobs into the fight. It seems that most annoying ones are the melee soldiers, as they are obviously designed to stay "ahead" of you, this is especially true for Protectors.
I have a workaround though; Herbalists. They are glad to stay behind me 99% of the time instead mindless running and aggroing of everything. I don't use any other soldiers on any of my characters these days. Even my minstrel uses a herbalist, with it's main role being a power battery.
My burglar's herbalist works nicely as well. I aggro some mobs, quite a few of them end up attacking the herbalist after she starts healing me. However, that's not an issue. She will heal himself while I swiftly stab all the mobs into their backs. Basically, that soldier is "tanking" for me in solo skirms... I was actually quite surprised at how good she is in that role. :P
I won't be looking at other types until there's some sort of AI improvements or a toggle for "stay here". Or perhaps "Do not go more than 5 meters away from me in any circumstances" toggle. That would allow him to follow, while staying very close, avoiding trouble.
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