Thread: Hope Token Cooldown Broken or WAI?

During a raid last night we noticed that the Hope tokens Cooldowns have increased massively. Is this a change that was not noted in the release notes or a bug introduced with the new patch?

I also noticed during an SG run that if you popped a token before the Goruthil fight it didn't remove the dread he gives as it used to, had to wait until after the cowering to pop it at which point the whole group is down to at least half morale, some quite a bit more.

Originally Posted by Maerd

I also noticed during an SG run that if you popped a token before the Goruthil fight it didn't remove the dread he gives as it used to, had to wait until after the cowering to pop it at which point the whole group is down to at least half morale, some quite a bit more.

The same happened to me yesterday in the Gates of Carn Dum epic instance, the token didn't work but went on CD. I knew I was right when I decided not to part with my Bounder Shirrif cap.

Originally Posted by Celebrimborn

During a raid last night we noticed that the Hope tokens Cooldowns have increased massively. Is this a change that was not noted in the release notes or a bug introduced with the new patch?

Can't speak to them not working, as the one I've used so far worked fine, but yes, I've also seen cooldowns increased, from 15 to 30 minutes. Or at least some of them did.. someone in our GLFF had a +5 hope crit that was 40 min cd, 40 min duration. I have two in my pack that still say +5 hope, 15 min cd/duration. (Maybe they didn't grandfather in old ones??)

Originally Posted by Vilost

Can't speak to them not working, as the one I've used so far worked fine, but yes, I've also seen cooldowns increased, from 15 to 30 minutes. Or at least some of them did.. someone in our GLFF had a +5 hope crit that was 40 min cd, 40 min duration. I have two in my pack that still say +5 hope, 15 min cd/duration. (Maybe they didn't grandfather in old ones??)

The Hope Tokens now have matching Duration and Cooldowns.

Brilliant (+5 Hope): Duration: 15 Min; Cooldown: 15 Min
Sparkling (+5 Hope): Duration: 30 Min; Cooldown: 30 Min
Luminous (+5 Hope): Duration: 40 Min; Cooldown: 40 Min

Originally Posted by Rhino-Man

The Hope Tokens now have matching Duration and Cooldowns.

Brilliant (+5 Hope): Duration: 15 Min; Cooldown: 15 Min
Sparkling (+5 Hope): Duration: 30 Min; Cooldown: 30 Min
Luminous (+5 Hope): Duration: 40 Min; Cooldown: 40 Min

This better be a bug. I know as we work through new content we go through a lot of tokens. Why would Turbine make is harder for us to do new content after doing things to make it easier, like auto-target marking and resetting skill cooldowns after boss fight attempts? Makes no sense at all.

not really sure i understand the issue.

so what if the CD is the same as duration.

pop a toke and the cd starts.

when a toke runs out pop another..pretty simple.

and if everyone has tokes on them as they should, then there is no issue if there is a wipe.

so what am i missing that is so terrible and game-breaking?

Originally Posted by megaboy

not really sure i understand the issue.

so what if the CD is the same as duration.

pop a toke and the cd starts.

when a toke runs out pop another..pretty simple.

and if everyone has tokes on them as they should, then there is no issue if there is a wipe.

so what am i missing that is so terrible and game-breaking?

Say your working on last boss of OD tier 2 challenge this now means that if you pop 30 or 40 min tokens you get 6 attempts per 30 or 40 mins maximum because of cooldown timers. Add in if someone dies in the middle of the fight and they have to pop hope after being revived you then make it 2 or maybe 3 attempts per 30-40 min or even less. It makes no sense to change the cooldowns from 15 min to 30 or 40 min.

Originally Posted by Celebrimborn

Say your working on last boss of OD tier 2 challenge this now means that if you pop 30 or 40 min tokens you get 6 attempts per 30 or 40 mins maximum because of cooldown timers. Add in if someone dies in the middle of the fight and they have to pop hope after being revived you then make it 2 or maybe 3 attempts per 30-40 min or even less. It makes no sense to change the cooldowns from 15 min to 30 or 40 min.

OD?

are you saying this is a raid issue?

cause it limits how many times you can run an instance in 30-40 minutes?

Originally Posted by megaboy

OD?

are you saying this is a raid issue?

cause it limits how many times you can run an instance in 30-40 minutes?

OD has a new dynamic where all skill cool downs are reset on wipes. In theory as long as you meet the requirements for the cool down reset, you can keep using that fellowship heart (or other skill) as much as you want. At least until your gear breaks.

The only constraint is things like the cool downs on tokens, warding lore, battle lore, what have I forgotten...

As far as I know, OD is the only instance where this dynamic is used.

A more annoying place would be team versus Hope wiping Rog in the Rift. There are only three? instances with Hope wipes. 1.8.5, Mordirith fight in Carn Dum and Rog in Rift.

Originally Posted by opurt

This better be a bug. I know as we work through new content we go through a lot of tokens. Why would Turbine make is harder for us to do new content after doing things to make it easier, like auto-target marking and resetting skill cooldowns after boss fight attempts? Makes no sense at all.

I always found it odd there were no hope-equivalents to the store-exclusive HoT and PoT potions... Perhaps that is about to change.

Otherwise, it does put a crimp in learning some content (e.g., when you're trying to get something down and wipe a lot in the process) and in completing certain content such as the things Yula mentions. Why raise the frustration level for those situations?

So they lowered token cool-downs from 1 hour to 15 minutes so we wouldn't have to wait ridiculously long times between fight attempts. Now they raise the cool-down? This makes no sense. People are only going to want 15m hope tokens now.

Originally Posted by megaboy

OD?

are you saying this is a raid issue?

cause it limits how many times you can run an instance in 30-40 minutes?

While the buff lasts the length of the cooldown, the problem arises when a death occurs as the buff is cleared. Because of this, you are limited by the number of people in the group vs. the length of the cooldown.

In a 6-man group - you can pop a token 6x within the cooldown period.
Solo - you can pop a token once during that same period.

What will likely happen - more people will craft the 15 min/15 min for when content is new or there is a chance of death requiring more crafting resources.

This bodes ill for Weatherstock, where we use hope tokens to vote for our favorite bands...

--Harperella

Bloo response required, seems a bit messy.
If not a bug, please explain why - can i buy the usual CD tokens from teh store?

Very disappointing change, especially given that hope tokens are not applied raid wide and getting a member in your fellow set-up with hope after a rez is not always possible if everyone else is on CD after several deaths.

Please reconsider this for your raiding community.

this was not in patch notes at all, im hoping it was a bug with the coding they did for the tokens stacking to 20

This has to be a bug. Otherwise the better tokens actually become less desirable than the weaker ones. 15min duration/cooldown is far, far preferable to 40min duration/cooldown which makes no sense.

Originally Posted by megaboy

not really sure i understand the issue.

so what if the CD is the same as duration.

pop a toke and the cd starts.

when a toke runs out pop another..pretty simple.

and if everyone has tokes on them as they should, then there is no issue if there is a wipe.

so what am i missing that is so terrible and game-breaking?

What you're missing is that your token's cd won't reset if you get defeated. So, if you pop a 30 min token (in a raid or solo) and get defeated say 5 minutes later you still have to wait 25 min before popping another one.

In a raid it complicates matters a lot if you want to keep +5 hope for everyone. Hypothetical example: say you pop a 30 min token at the beginning of a Wing in OD. You lose one person in the 1st trash fight, that person then pops. You lose another one in another trash pulls, that person pops. You are at the boss with already half of a fellowship on hope CD. Now hope is refreshed at the beginning of the fight but someone is rezzed and needs a hope token during the fight. That leaves you with only 1 person who's not on CD in the event of a wipe.

As noted above, devs have tried to reduce the wait for cds in raid by having class skills reset at boss fights, changing hope tokens' cd goes against this trend. I would believe its a bug introduced with the stacking modification and I hope it gets fixed soon.

In the meantime ancient silver will be the new k-copper

Yeah, I'll be mining for +15 tokens only at this point. I'm not sure the instances with hope wipes would be doable if everyone was carrying +40 hope tokens.

Hate to sound harsh, but should we expect store exclusive hope tokens that have a shorter cooldown?

Originally Posted by Laokong

In the meantime ancient silver will be the new k-copper

*sobs* Why didn't I keep those extra stacks!

I didn't see it in the patch note (only the increase in stack size thank god!), and I bugged it in OD fear wing when I noticed it... But has anyone else noticed the ninja cooldown change on hope tokens? Their cool downs are the same as their durations, but before they were only 5 minutes... Well if you excuse me I'm off to mine ancient silver to make 15 minute +5 hope, since no fight that needs hope lasts 40 minutes...

Coming soon to the Turbine Store- Hope tokens with no cooldown! Only 795 tps a stack!

Wait and see

Originally Posted by gonewhaned

I didn't see it in the patch note (only the increase in stack size thank god!), and I bugged it in OD fear wing when I noticed it... But has anyone else noticed the ninja cooldown change on hope tokens? Their cool downs are the same as their durations, but before they were only 5 minutes... Well if you excuse me I'm off to mine ancient silver to make 15 minute +5 hope, since no fight that needs hope lasts 40 minutes...

Oh! I hadn't noticed. Thanks for pointing that out. I read your post while logged into the game and checked mine too. Yup! Hopefully that isn't wai and will be fixed....

Originally Posted by Ceifwien

Coming soon to the Turbine Store- Hope tokens with no cooldown! Only 795 tps a stack!

Wait and see

No, not hope tokens, but rather some other way to remove dread and rouse your spirit after death! Maybe even a tome of some sort.... They could call it a tome of revival! ... oh wait.... nm.

I hope this is a bug because it's really, REALLY, REALLY annoying.

There are several threads on this issue already, and I'd really like to see a comment from a blue name on it.

Originally Posted by hucklebarry

Hate to sound harsh, but should we expect store exclusive hope tokens that have a shorter cooldown?

You cynic you! Not quite cynical enough. Based on the potion paradigm, store tokens would presumably have independent cooldowns. And be resistant to hope wipes, yeah, that's the ticket

Anyway, this does sound more like a bug than a feature. I'd also had past issues where 40 minute token with 2 minutes left couldn't be overwritten by a 15 minute token, wonder if that one got repaired and broke this?

stupid change/bug. Now the top teir crafted item, when critted, is the worst in the game. While a lvl 40 non crit is the best atm lol.

Went out n got a ton of ancient silver last night n started crafting....u know it's borked when I purposely bought the cheap of junky jewerler's tools from the vendor just so I WOULDNT crit lol.

wtg turbine

Originally Posted by gonewhaned

Well if you excuse me I'm off to mine ancient silver to make 15 minute +5 hope, since no fight that needs hope lasts 40 minutes

I'll meet you there!

Yeah, this change is not necessary. They do things in Update 2 to make raiding easier, then do the opposite in Update 3. Turbine's left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing.

JW Barry in his developer diary said that cooldowns weren't fun and got in the way
So cooldowns reset after wipes in boss fights now... at least most of them.

So someone comes along and does this.
We're working on OD now, and we're having to wait around for token cooldowns?!
Learning the balrog is one big wait fest now.
Might as well go put all the cooldowns back in the game.

So now, the lower crafted Ancient Silver made hope tokens with the 15 minute cooldown are highly desirable.
And the price of Ancient Silver is through the roof, go have a look on the ah, it went from cheap to Petroleum overnight! It's a sad day when you have to go back to tier 5 crafted tokens just because of COOLDOWNS! And tier 6 crafted tokens become practically trash overnight? Go have a look and see symptomatic evidence of what you've done on the auction house.

Turbine you need to have your right hand talk to your left. And you need to make sure your people making these decisions actually UNDERSTAND the dynamics.

I put this bit of coding right up there with the quality assurance person that doesn't play this game enough to be able to spot INSTANTLY pony animation on a horse before you put it in the lotro store.

It's all very amateur, Unless Turbine is about to put short cooldown tokens in the store like someone mentioned above. Then it's brilliant and twisted, and it will cost you a lot of Goodwill in some customers. Do you think you can step by step tinker with the cooldowns, then wait a bit, let us forget what the cooldowns were, and then put something better in the the store.

We will not forget. There are too many of us here in Mordor that do not sleep.

I don't usually get angry, but after standing around for long stretches this week waiting on token cooldowns, or for tanks that died and have to sit around for token cooldowns, because of OD Balrog dread, I'm smokin hot.

Peace and love.

Why did JWBarry go to the trouble to take cooldowns out of boss fights for someone to go and do this to the tokens?

Why am I out in forochel mining for ancient silver?

Why am I now having to carry around a stack of *Sparkling Tokens and a stack of SoA Brilliant tokens?

Lame. Scwew you guys, I'm going to Denny's Baconalia. They put bacon in the sundaes and in the pancakes.

Good to hear no one else saw them say they were increasing it... Which means its just a bug, and hopefully we don't have to wait till Isen to get it adjusted. So keep /bugging it, and luckily for us only really DB is annoying when someone dies and needs a token mid fight lol

I'd love to see the official word on this that yes it's a bug. I don't think this was intended, because I too remember the speech about the class skill cooldowns for fights being undesirable and that's why they were done away with in the new raid after a wipe/reset. This is just as bad, because the place it's most likely to affect us is mid-fight. The cooldown resets only happen in OD at the boss fights, not the rest of middle earth, so if I die elsewhere my dread removal can only be used once without waiting the full cooldown period.

Can we get an answer as to WAI or /bug? In the meantime I do plan to /bug this.

It's probably a bug, but it really can't be that bad. You'd have to wipe 6 times in 40 minutes even if everyone in the raid had only 40 minute tokens. If that's happening, you're probably in way over your head anyway.

Compare this to SoA when token cooldown was 1 HOUR and the main raid boss did multiple token wipes--1 was even scripted--in each attempt at the encounter.

Those were the days!

Originally Posted by Frisco

If that's happening, you're probably in way over your head anyway.

Well either you're leet and never wipe, or you're a pansy and never attempt any hard content. (We'll let everyone else decide.) But some of us are not leet or pansies, but we do LIKE and ENJOY a challenge, and push ourselves as hard as we can. We don't complain that content is too hard, we find a way to beat it. And sometimes that includes wiping. A lot. And waiting around after a wipe does not increase our enjoyment fo this game.

So wait, 20 minutes after the first 5 people popped tokens, they still have a 40 minute cooldown?

That certainly sounds like a bug!

Ok, I assume it's just bad math...but even if that worst case scenario comes true, you wait, what, 10 minutes for a couple token cooldowns? If that? And that's assuming that everyone who died died in separate attacks, were not the people who popped to start, and were not essential enough to warrant a reset to try fresh.

Somehow we all got by with 1-hour cooldowns on tokens before...taking a bio break after 2 horrendous wipes in that scenario would probably be a good idea anyway.

Originally Posted by Frisco

Somehow we all got by with 1-hour cooldowns on tokens before....

If I want to sit around and do nothing, I'll stay at work, or watch some TV. But if I'm PLAYING a video game, I want to be PLAYING that game. Not staring blankly at my monitor.

And yeah, we did deal with it before, but Turbine finally agreed with us that sitting and doing nothing was boring and counter to enjoying the game, so they took away those cooldowns. And a month later they start adding them back. ###?!?!!?

I was very disappointed when someone pointed this out to me. I applauded Turbine for allowing skill resets inside the OD raid, which I considered to be a big step forward in making raiding less time consuming and more enjoyable. This however, seems to be a complete step backwards from that line of thought and I can't even begin to fathom why it was done.

Change the token cooldown back to where it was asap!

Originally Posted by Lupini

*sobs* Why didn't I keep those extra stacks!

Because they sell well.

Any bloooooooooooo pl0x?

I bug reported it as well, and will continue to encourage everyone else to do so. Even if it WAS an intentional change, hoping enough outcry will push it back.

We shall see. I also would love to hear an official response.