Thread: An Update: On Upcoming Changes to Hunters

Fine. Then give us a line that does ranged aoe and a line that does ranged single target. Or a line that has kiting dps and a line for stationary. *These* I can live with. They match what the class is built to do well. A melee line is a line that encourages us to do something that the class does badly, especially in comparison to the numerous other classes that do melee well. That line is very unlikely to be usable which means it narrows our flexibility and reduces the experience of playing the class. I don't see why this is complicated.

There is a small chance that hunter melee skills and traits are rethought enough that hunters can actually make a distinctive and productive melee contribution that other classes can't--this I *might* be able to get behind (but I'd probably still rather play a champ).

The role of the hunter is ranged dps. Secondarily CC. Just like all the classes FL listed, we have a primary role that we excel at and others we don't. No one asks a loremaster to come along for tactical dps and if loremasters had to depend on that to get in groups they'd be out of luck. That line is a soloing line. Just like our bowmaster line is. Just like Guardian overpower, warden dps, etc. The same could be said of basically every class. To argue they all have 3 different functions while we have two is misleading, to say the least. The problem with the proposal is that is sounds like it will make hunters less good at their primary function. If so, this is definitely a step backwards.

The portion of the hunter community that fails to understand this or obscure it behind simplistic comparisons makes me sick (not really, just trying to get in the hyperbolic spirit of those among us who are prospecting on the bright side).

ZC --

Perhaps we should wait on any Hunter changes this soon to a major revamp. Give things a bit more time to settle (and for the new relics to come out, which will change builds again). Can we revisit these Hunter changes in another 3 months?

If you were to change anything, change Strength of the Earth to Morale every second instead of ICMR like it is now.

Personally, I wouldn't even change that. Don't change a thing until another few months have gone by, and more gameplay testing has been done. Things aren't perfect now I'll agree, but we also haven't been able to do enough poking and prodding to see what should be tweaked. And tweaks are what are needed, not another wholesale revamp.

Please.

Originally Posted by ZombieJesus

Guys, I think this is a rare opportunity to voice our issues with the hunter class in a thread the dev is clearly reading. While I agree with the general consensus that the proposed changes to our trait lines would be a poor move (sorry ZC, what you're suggesting would be far too drastic a play style change) to simply say 'don't change us, we're fine' seems somewhat short sighted. I would encourage you to list even your small grievances with the class and hope they will be addressed.

Here are some of my own:

SoTe's Morale regen: both the 3 peice Huntsman line bonus, and the Major meele legacy. These are now essentially worthless due to the very short duration of the ability, these need to be replaced or changed.

Focus/Induction Crit legacies: These need to be a single legacy, the math has been done on them and the increase to overall DPS is far too low to justify them being 2 separate legacies.

Beneath Notice/Beneath Care: This ability needs to have a direct aggro dump component to it and to have the trait Stealthy Shot changed to something entirely else. It's probably our worst trait currently.

Heart of the Bard: This trait needs to be changed due to the now much lower CD of HS.

Trapper of Foes Line: I understand the rationale of the reduced DPS for CC, however what Turbine seems to have failed to understand is that none of the traits in this line directly increase our DPS, meaning to trait deep in ToF we're giving up both our DPS traits and the bonuses of the other 2 lines. This is MORE than enough of a hit to DPS, there should be NO direct penalty to ranged DPS from speccing this line. I'd also like to see the root moved from Pen. Shot, as this one of our highest DPS moves. As well, the 2 piece bonus of this line should likely be updated, I'm all for higher power regen, but it's a pretty small amount.

Endurance Stance: I simply do not go into this stance anymore. I am able to maintain my aggro and power in Precision too easily to even consider it. I'd like to see the current bonuses from it stay the same, but have something extra added to make it more enticing. Perhaps some sort of bonus to CC skills (duration, resist chance, etc). This would fit in line with the 3 trait lines and 3 stances, one for each.

Heightened Senses and Camouflage: I don't feel we should have traits/skills whose only real use by players is for the Moors. Heightened Senses should probably be inherent to Hunters, stop making us change this one trait every time we leave/enter the Moors. Same with Camouflage, there's very few PVE uses for this. I'd like to see bonus damage to shots fired from Camouflage, this would give it some great use in pulling/starts of fights, and give it synergy with skills such as Heartseeker and Swift Bow

Scourging Blow and Unlegacied Agile Rejoiner: I think these need to be changed to something else, I can't possibly justify working these into my rotation over say another QS or Pen shot. We're not a meele class and I don't want us to be. I use Blindside for the focus, low cut for the slow, and SS for the defense buff, the damage component never even factors into my brain.

Strong Draw: What hunter WOULDN'T trait this? And there in lies the problem, this is such an essential trait, every last hunter is gonna get it, and as such we now only have 6 class trait slots instead of 7. Make the bonus of this inherent.

Overall I think the idea of the 3 lines is great, Burst DPS, Sustained DPS, CC, and hope they stay that way. I think the issues with people not speccing ToF is both that we have to sacrifice too much to spec it and that there's not a huge amount of scenarios in the game where CC is direly needed. There's not often 6 mans desperately seeking CC, but if this role was in demand then people would certain be willing to seek and accept ToF Hunters as well as LMs and Burgs.

Great post! I agree, particularly about the TOF line. I'd love to use it more, but the penalty is way too high considering you're giving up the bonuses you'd getting traiting the other lines then getting a penalty on top of it.
I liked the last update, but I would like to be able to use the TOF line some.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

I have a bit of an update on Blogs, shamelessly copied from Orion.

Some of you may have noticed that Kelsen put up a bundle of blogs two days ago http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/ on his my.lotro.com page and Orion talked about them in a Champion thread. As you can see by that little snippet of information, we are going to attempt to do blogs for upcoming class changes. That being said, I am hoping to post the first iteration of my proposed changes to the Hunter up soon.

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

I've got a better idea. Restore Strength of the Earth so it fully replenishes our power again.

EDIT: ...and leave the rest of our "stuff" alone.

And, thanks for editing my post Celestrata. You must be joking. Really. You removed my implied cussing, which I entered using ampersands and dollar signs? Really?

Off-topic, this morning I went shopping @ the store and spent $1.00. (<----Celestrata, please censor this too!)

Editing the above posted list of traitlines for better accuracy/fairer treatment. Top is fairer treatment, bottom is lumping.

LM: 1 for DPS, 1 for pets, 1 for CC
RK: 1 for sustained DPS, 1 for burst DPS, 1 for HoTs
Ch: 1 for AoE, 1 for ST, one useless one
Gu: 1 for threat, 1 for DPS, 1 for mitigating damage
Wa: 1 for heals, 1 for threat, 1 fpr DPS
Mi: 1 for heals, 1 for DPS and one useless one
Ca: 1 for buffs, 1 for heals, 1 useless one
HNT: 1 for Ranged burst DPS w/ threat, 1 for sustained ranged DPS w/less threat, CC (mostly useless but functional)

OR,

LM: 1 for tactical DPS, 1 for CC , one useless one
RK: 2 for tactical DPS, 1 for HoTs
Ch: 1 for AoE, 1 for ST, one useless one
Gu: 2 for tanking, 1 for DPS
Wa: 2 for tanking, 1 fpr DPS
Mi: 1 for heals, 1 for DPS and one useless one
Ca: 1 for buffs, 1 for heals, 1 useless one
HNT: 2 for ranged DPS, CC (mostly useless but functional)

Why am I not surprised that most of the posts here are people screaming "NO NO NO NO" at the top of their lungs without giving 10 seconds of actual thought to the situation? How about this - go to your corner, sit down, and be quite while the adults are talking? Some of us actually have a measurable reading comprehension and would like to have a civil discourse to come up with possible ideas and/or suggestion without having to filter through 4 pages of people who are in a state of panic over as-yet-unknown changes.

For me, I like the idea of a Bow & Blade warrior. Maybe I'm old-school, but I enjoyed the Luclin/ POP days of Everquest when rangers had the option to focus on ranged combat or melee combat, or even do some of both. It was comforting knowing that I could switch between ranged damage or melee damage depending on which was the best option for a particular fight. I was even happy when one of the WoW developers mentioned that one of their concepts for improving hunter survivability in PvP there was to increase the classes melee damage enough to make simply hugging the hunter not the automatic best option for non-melee classes.

Of course I'm also one of the "blasphemous" hunters who dares to finish of a monster that gets into melee range with melee skills (and has some extra melee damage ranks on his LI) instead of simply freaking out and spending more time getting range than it would take to finish said monster off with melee. So to me the option of being able to take down the unseen add that joined the fight without having to run around gaining distance and the attention of a whole bunch more monsters is actually attractive.

Heck it MIGHT even get me out to try the moors once or twice. Personally I find the game of "shoot, burn cooldowns to get away, shoot again" that you annoyances call "hunter PvP" stale and boring. Having the option to decide if I want to try to finish off a 2/3 dead melee class who closed the range with melee or to try to get back to range with the attendant options might just make me want to dabble in MMORPG PvP agai. Tha is something I haven't done since the very early days of WoW (as in before any server could field a full raid of level-capped characters).

and that's the other thing i don't get...

how does melee buff = ranged nerf? how? how?

right now, if a mob closes into melee with us, it reduces our ranged DPS... how? melee auto-attacks do less damage than ranges auto attacks, inductions get interrupted, hunter gets CC'd... and melee attacks do spit for damage... so typically a hunter will CC or kite, which further reduces DPS due to movement. you may like that style of play... i do not. i prefer to stand toe-to-toe, as do enough others that turbine has realized that melee skills need to be buffed.

for 4 years people on these forums have complained that melee skills are not worth using. ZC just said they are going to fix that. read the official hunter class description. it says hunters are BOTH good archers and good MELEE. the melee part has obviously not been approved by the community. a bow and blade line could buff melee to what it's supposed to be WITHOUT nerfing ranged damage output.

everybody agrees that we hunters have ONE good ranged DPS line... fine... combine the two ranged DPS lines into one. (face it bowmaster still sucks) and make another line for those in the community which want 5 useless skill made into something that's actually useful.

i can't believe people are against a class buff. you can't use a melee skill at the same time as a ranged skill... if all they do is ADD a 4 HM bonus to add +100% melee damage, and remove the S:S req from BM, how is that a nerf in any way?

yes update2 was a great update for hunters. it made 2 useless traitlines less useless. and made our capstones actually worth traiting. but it didn't fix hunters completely... we still have 5 useless melee skills. the utility benefits from skills that should be available for DPS.

nobody is asking that hunters are turned into champs. just that melee skills are useful in combination with ranged skills so that our DPS doesn't go down when we are in melee.

and that 3/4 ToF is useful... right now ToF is only useful going all in for the chain mez capstone

ZC said this:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

You all get super melee buffs that allow you to go toe-to-toe in the moors, combined huntman and bowmaster lines, and no narrowing of flexibility of ranged dps from the above.

On the changes, you are wishcasting. Where does it say you will be able to go toe-to-toe in the moors? Where does it say that focus and induction will be combined with no net nerf to either? One thing he did say is that CC is going to take a hit. Nothing in what ZC has said (so far) says what you say it says. You want to imagine that he has promised a pot of enhancements at the end of a developer's rainbow. Reading comprehension ftw.

Moreover, it was posted asking for input. ZC did not ask to only have input from people who agree with what he has proposed, despite your efforts to police the forum for him.

On the discourse, two people on this page have been insulting to the community they disagree with which is supposedly either childish or making them sick. Not surprisingly they are the same people celebrating their own reasonableness and maturity. Self-awareness ftw.

Originally Posted by EvilTreerat

Why am I not surprised that most of the posts here are people screaming "NO NO NO NO" at the top of their lungs without giving 10 seconds of actual thought to the situation? How about this - go to your corner, sit down, and be quite while the adults are talking? Some of us actually have a measurable reading comprehension and would like to have a civil discourse to come up with possible ideas and/or suggestion without having to filter through 4 pages of people who are in a state of panic over as-yet-unknown changes.

By adult, do you mean condescending?

It's okay to voice disapproval over potential "improvements" that could damage the hunter class mechanics. Or would you prefer LOTRO goes live with something terrible, and we can all yell and scream on the go live date? Maybe they'll fix it then. Maybe they'll fix it in a faster time frame than the many months it took to fix the LI lottery system and radiance gating.

I'll go sit in my corner and be "quite" now.

first... i was responding in kind to all the stuart little posts...

second... i don't give a spit about the moors, and none of my comments supporting the buff of melee skills have anything to do with the moors. seriously... i'm rank 4... that should tell you how little i care for the moors.

third... i haven't celebrated any maturity or reasonableness at all... i only celebrate bacon and the end of wars

fourth... read my disclaimer signature... you should know by now that my brashness is totally faked for entertainment only... you've read the hunter forums long enough to know i've been here from march 07...

fifth... exactly... ZC only mention less CC... nowhere did he mention lower ranged DPS... and yet so many people act like "bow and blade" means ranged DPS nerf... explain to me how "bow and blade" means ranged DPS nerf? especially when melee is part of the class advertisement; part of the class description.

sixth... a lot more than 2 people have been disrespectful in this thread. "this page" can mean anywhere from 10 posts to 100 posts, depending on what each user set the browser to display.

seventh... i ran out of bacon this weekend while my account was stolen right out from under me. thankfully, Turbined banned it before anything could be taken from it. only reason i mention this, is that i couldn't post in this thread for several days because of the situation, and so it festered within me about all the stuart little posts.

eighth... there have been several very long threads hotly debating whether hunters should have decent melee capabilities... and the only conclusion derived: is that there are enough people that say that hunter melee skills are useless, and enough people that point out that melee is clearly in the hunter class description, that hunter melee needs to be buffed into usefulness. again, nobody is asking for hunters to melee like a champion. just that hunter melee skills aren't useless.

ninth... i'm sick anyway, not because of the forums, but because i'm actually sick... and i'm not asking for sympathy... just simply that everyone quits screaming so loudly about "if you want to melee, go roll a champ." (i will also update my previous post to remove the word sick)

tenth... [edit:] and nowhere did i represent that my examples of possible changes were in any way implied by ZC's post

eleventh... i've now counted to ten, and have such calmed down.

Forgotten Legend:

OK, I conflated you with EvilTreeRat unfairly. True enough.

But still. You note that lotro has always thought of the hunter as a good melee warrior such that they even advertise it in the class description. You seem to think that this means that the devs will finally take it seriously because ZC wants to commit some undetermined part of a traitline to it. To which I will simply respond that the devs have for years mistakenly thought they created a melee/bow class when all along you and most of the other people who have been playing since 2007 have known full well that they had done nothing of the sort. I built my hunter based on this forum. The forum is correct. The developers are not.

In other words, for 4 years the devs have not understood the class they created. Update 2 basically acknowledges the truth of the situation. Finally. So, ZC comes along and says that he is going to actually make the hunter class that was originally advertised even though the devs have never demonstrated their ability to do that with the result that the class has had useless skills, useless traits and badly designed trait lines. You choose to assume two things. 1.) that ZC will solve the problem that no other developer has. OK, maybe. I'd like to see more details and if there were a line on this in Vegas I'm pretty sure there would be longshot odds on ZC. I'll stick with the smart money (along with plenty of others who have responded). 2.) you assume that the changes will result in a net benefit in the combined bowmaster line. Maybe, but I seriously doubt it. 1+2=wishcasting. Sure, it's more optimistic, but it's no more reasonable than people who think a combined ranged dps line is likely to gimp one or the other build or that committing a trait line to melee (the 6th best melee in the game! Hooray!) is a waste of a line that reduces flexibility. ZC's last update demonstrates a good understanding of the class, but that doesn't mean the developers like it or know how to implement their ideas correctly. This is probably part of why he asked for feedback in the first place.

What you have is an opinion (which on the surface looks like a commentary on the "Stuart Littles"--no doubt a reasonable and justified characterization). You support this opinion with things like your comparison of class traitlines (which should be stickied in every class forum as a standing troll post). Based on what we have to work with (next to nothing) there is no more reason to be optimistic than pessimistic (perhaps less?). You are hopeful (Forgotten Legend says: "i can't believe people are against a class buff" (wth?!?)). I congratulate you on your optimism and I sincerely hope you get well soon.

first i will give a suggestion then start yelling

on the topic of aminations (i believe someone on page four mentioned it) i would like to see a shorter animation on purge pioson which in combat takes a fair bit of time away from pew pewing and between fights it can take a while to heal a fellowship. also i would like to see our sneek skill (the one u can move in while using) last something like twenty seconds or at least a legacy that would allow it

now alot of u have posted very long posts that SAY THE SAME THING if u dont read other posts and just skip all the other ones at least make urs short as in when u type u dont need to scroll or smaller

now i maybe wrong but i thought bowmaster was supposed to be bighiter and huntsman dps, not both dps

I'll wait and see, but I can't this being good at present. A true bow and sword expert? I like the geater use of traps idea, and better DPS idea ranged..but I believe hunters were only able to "defend themselves in melee in need" was the quote from the hunter class video/description.

If you are planning to leave us less than max ranged DPS and make us less than max melee and max CC as well then I'll be very unhappy. I don't melee much, nor do I want to. I play ranged because with a 256ms latency in NZ the "you must face target" gets extremely annoying.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

I remember the good job you did back on the RK subforum, ZC. Here's hoping to have a good discussion here about Hunters!

I have to start with the same general concern voiced many times in this thread: we just absorbed a wide-ranging shuffle of trait lines, so it is surprising to see this again.

Specific thoughts:
1. If BM and S:S are split, what happens to the threat/power tradeoffs for increased damage?
2. By "Bow and Blade" you mean Bow and Weapon, right? My hobbit has been working on bringing up a new 2A club; I hope I'm not going to be sorry.
3. If the changes allow us to do certain roles (spike damage, sustained DPS, CC) better, then that is great. If they nerf the peak performance in any role, that will be bad.


.

Originally Posted by Lithium777

the cap stone will remove the induction off ports and make them usable in combat, it will also not give the people in range a choice if they can come. Trapper of Friends.

That gives me an idea.... ToF traitline would allow Desperate Flight to work as an AoE for your whole group to escape!

Originally Posted by GSO86

That gives me an idea.... ToF traitline would allow Desperate Flight to work as an AoE for your whole group to escape!

And that gives me an idea for a new skill (maybe the hunter forced emote):

Desperate Cowardice:
CD: 1 hour
Target: 1 Fellowship member
Effect: Sends the target to the nearest rez circle.

/sh D2 <Can I have it?> <Reward:> 3k

Originally Posted by SaintBass

I don't know where you are getting 19:1 fierce opposition... I've seen some skepticism, patience and a few adamant objections... but I am not seeing the clear consensus against such changes when a quick search would show that these ideas have come primarily from this forum and its users.

Wow, SaintBass, then you missed it badly, heh.

I went back and tallied up all the responses right up to the point Bastiat1 said "19 to 1". I included his own post in opposition, of course, as he would naturally count himself. I did not count posts that didn't include some fairly clear viewpoint. I did not double-count people who made multiple posts. It came out 21 to 3, with 6 others in a "wait and see" mode. So 19 to 1 isn't too far off...the opposition, PARTICULARLY the opposition to shifting hunters more toward melee combat, is pretty darn strong.

Yes, yes, I know that 21:3 reduces to 7:1 which is very different from 19:1, but it's still 21 people saying 'yuck' while very few are saying 'awesome'. Bastiat's _sense_ wasn't far off at all. And 7:1 is still a landslide of opposition.

Here's how I tallied them up:

Sounds Wrong: (21) Lithium777, Finrandiras, d3sperad0, Galahadur, Cherep, Cubi, lwk1138, Lothran, harkamsu, Daynab, CWood, Tamiya, Aliendha, ZombieJesus, ScrappyTheGreat, Tinluen, anwar, Feybobiam, drexele, Hirandiel, Bastiat1

I'm Excited: (3) SoccerMike, SaintBass, cold_realms

Wait and See: (6) Yosoff, NameAlreadyTaken, Murtallica, Lycaunoss, Macroscian, FyreBrand.


@ZC: I actually believe most of those in all three categories I tried to shove them in are actually willing to wait and see to some extent, but we're a somewhat battered and bruised lot from all the sharp turns the Turbine bus has made in the past with this (and other) classes, and so we're a bit skittish. With some really nice suggestions (and a few crackpot ideas) in the thread of ways we REALLY think you could improve the class, there's definitely room to do something here. Just hoping it does not include anything to do with shifting the class within melee range of the enemy, even if just in one of our 3 trait lines. Best to you!

Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend

first... everyone complains about how our melee skills aren't worth spit... and complain about how our DPS suffers in melee range of an opponent... THEN complains when ZC tells us that melee is going to be buffed!

I don't think that many people complain that our melee skills are weak (in terms of DPS value). People point it out, noting that you're better off using bow skills even at melee range, but I think it's much more often a statement of fact, than a complaint. I have no problem w/ the fact that our melee skills are only good for their buffs or debuffs.

And to one of your later points, it's possible that we could get a boost to melee without our ranged options suffering, but you have to admit there's plenty of precedence for the +1 here, -1 (or even -2) there style of "buffing".

That said, despite the fact that I posted my suspicion that the OP may have been a tardy April Fools joke, I don't see much point in complaining or worrying about possible upcoming changes till we actually know what those changes are going to be. We've got 7 pages of - mostly - people freaking out about the vaguest of specs for possible upcoming changes. I think there's several other people that need to follow the Baconairre's lead and count to 10 and calm down.

Originally Posted by Lothran

Sounds Wrong
I'm Excited
Wait and See

With the mild way you stated it, I'd put myself in group 1, tho with a strong leaning toward group 3.

EDIT: Put me down as 'dubious' in Halvr's list.

Originally Posted by Lothran

Wow, SaintBass, then you missed it badly, heh.

*stuff*

Depends on how you look at it, I guess.

For example: How many of those would qualify as actual opposition? For myself, I think making any change is an asinine idea at this point (Turbine has enough class-balance issues without completely overhauling classes once every three months -and- "If it ain't broke, don't fix it") and I think it's going to cause a huge stink on the forums (ZOMG UR TAKEING MY DAMIGE!!!1~!@!#~@~!@), but I'd hardly say I'm opposed to the change itself.

Went through and made my own list, in four categories. Same as you, I skipped duplicates (I did try to consider all a person's posts rather than just one) and facetious posts (my own and the dual-wielding-dwarf-runekeepers sub-conversation, for example). Here's how I broke it down:

Interested
NAT
SoccerMike
SB
cold_realms
FyreBrand

Neutral
Yosoff
Big_Scooter
Murtallica
D3-Rook
drexle
Lycaunoss

Dubious
Lithium777
Finrandiras
Cherep
lwk1138
Lothran
Tamiya
Aliendha
ZombieJesus
Ozthorn
ScrappyTheGreat
anwar

Opposed
d3sperad0
Galahadur
Cubi
harkamsu
Daynab
Tinluen
Feybobiam
Hirandiel
bastiat1

That's 9:22 that are actually opposed to the changes, or roughly 1:7. Even if you count the ones that are dubious as being opposed, it'd still only be 20:11, or 2:1. That's a far cry from 19:1.

Originally Posted by Lothran

Wow, SaintBass, then you missed it badly, heh.

{SNIP}

Yes, yes, I know that 21:3 reduces to 7:1 which is very different from 19:1, but it's still 21 people saying 'yuck' while very few are saying 'awesome'. Bastiat's _sense_ wasn't far off at all. And 7:1 is still a landslide of opposition.

Here's how I tallied them up:

Sounds Wrong: (21) Lithium777, Finrandiras, d3sperad0, Galahadur, Cherep, Cubi, lwk1138, Lothran, harkamsu, Daynab, CWood, Tamiya, Aliendha, ZombieJesus, ScrappyTheGreat, Tinluen, anwar, Feybobiam, drexele, Hirandiel, Bastiat1

I'm Excited: (3) SoccerMike, SaintBass, cold_realms

Wait and See: (6) Yosoff, NameAlreadyTaken, Murtallica, Lycaunoss, Macroscian, FyreBrand.


@ZC: I actually believe most of those in all three categories I tried to shove them in are actually willing to wait and see to some extent, but we're a somewhat battered and bruised lot from all the sharp turns the Turbine bus has made in the past with this (and other) classes, and so we're a bit skittish. With some really nice suggestions (and a few crackpot ideas) in the thread of ways we REALLY think you could improve the class, there's definitely room to do something here. Just hoping it does not include anything to do with shifting the class within melee range of the enemy, even if just in one of our 3 trait lines. Best to you!

That was my point. I don't disagree that there is opposition or even assert that its unfounded, but it doesn't do anyone any favors to misrepresent things... like a few non-hunters saying that "rifle is fine" (link NSFW-Language). I am excited to see what is in store, but that does not mean that I will support it. I was actually endorsing a much more "wait and see" approach... and my excitement mostly stems from the class getting some consistent Dev attention.

I've been playing since before release, and was an avid Beta Tester for the game. There, i've now thrown my completely worthless credentials down. ((Because everyone knows how long it took for them to fix Fleetness with all of us crying about it.))

Do- Not - Change - Hunters - Again. Let me see if I have this straight. You're telling me, that what you want to do is completely destroy our secondary (Even if it is minor) role as CC, make Bowmaster the trait line everyone uses (Even though horrible Hunters only know Bowmaster anyways) and minimalize the heightened steady DPS of Huntsman in order to make them (Possibly?) more solo friendly.

I still don't agree with the raid changes to Purge Poison, because honestly in four years of play I could give less than a ???? about Raid roles. As far as i'm concerned raiding is still broken. We're forced to trait out of Agility, for Vitality and Resistances, just to alleviate the work the Healers have to perform. So we're still not focusing on what we should be focusing on, which is dealing damage and helping the Burg's and Lore-Masters keep encounters manageable.

Trapper of Foes is like that trait line folks with a foreward thinking mind wanted, but we never had a dev bold enough to tell the LM's and Burgs to share the play ground with. It could STILL be an amazing CC Line. Turn Explosive Arrow into Explosive Arrows, creating a 3 target AoE daze that is sustainable if you're 5 Traits in. (Adjustable with Legacies.) Keep the AoE Purge Poison, (I may find a use for it... someday. Other than using it to remove Poisons in School and Library.) Add a Fear such as what the War Cry Gambit on Wardens possess' at the moment in for animal's.

Huntsman should remain as it is, with perhaps a change in how Strength of Earth works. I've still never found the Morale regen to be useful, especially now that the channel is about worthless. Make it a Heal Over Time Pulse instead of an ICMR. It isn't that tough to balance it without creating a longer cool down. This could help in a lot of situations, (Maybe even ranged tanking situations for raiders.) Especially if you throw it on the Resolute Aim protection for Inductions if you're traited 4+.

Bowmaster should still levy heavy penalties. Keep it tied to Strength Stance. That's why the Stance was backed up, with being a part of the line. Just like the other two are.

If Huntsman and Trapper of Foes are ruined to force players to use Bowmaster, I will be hanging up my Hunter after 4 years of an up and down relationship to focus on my Warden. Being forced to be a mindless face rolling Bowmaster player isn't my idea of a challenging or fun class.

Originally Posted by CWood

Depends on how you look at it, I guess.

[snip]

Interested
[snip - total 5]

Neutral
[snip - total 6]

Dubious
[snip - total 11]

Opposed
[snip - total 9]

That's 9:22 that are actually opposed to the changes, or roughly 1:7. Even if you count the ones that are dubious as being opposed, it'd still only be 20:11, or 2:1. That's a far cry from 19:1.

Yah, it absolutely does depend on how you count it. For instance, you weakened the negative reaction by dividing it into two groups, dubious and opposed ... then you strengthened the favorable response by including neutrals (it is not true here that 'not opposed therefore equals in favor'). So, even with your categorization, it really comes out at 11+9 against 5, or 20:5 --> 4:1 unfavorable. Still widespread disfavor among those who took a position.

Let's face it, ZC threw out VERY little information...just three short phrases. Most of us would truly put ourselves in the "wait and see" group because of the total lack of detail. But ZC didn't throw these 3 phrases out to get zero feedback...he was looking for responses. As I thought through this, I considered an analogous conversation, like this:

ZC: blue
Us: wait and see
ZC: deep blue
Us: wait and see
ZC: deep metallic blue
Us: wait and see
ZC: deep metallic blue with fins
Us: wait and see
ZC: deep metallic blue with fins, chrome bumpers and wheel well trim
Us: NO NO NO, we don't like blue, we wanted red, we hate chrome, and fins are so 1953!
ZC: *frazzle razzle*

Even if he's giving very little info, ZC is looking for a response. So, responses make sense. So far, the forum community response to the idea of more melee is strongly blech.

I said alot more than blech, but it would be the appropriate translation.

Thank you for letting us know whats going on, ZC.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.

Finally

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.

First i was like: "Woahohoho.. dont touch my loved Huntsmenline and morph it to a Melee-Hybrid-Whatever."
Then i startet to think about this idea and i realised that this change could be be what i always wanted for this class.

Huntsmen, for example, as a range tanking line is an awesome idea.
But only if Bowmaster Hunters got the choice of being a slow, high hitting damgedealer oder a swift, not as high hitting one (maybe through crossbow and bow, then theres a significant differnce between this 2 weapons).

I know that i could do more damage in Bowmaster but i simply don't use it because its to slow for my demands.
And that bugs me. I can't claim the highest possible DPS (Bowmaster) and get this swift felling (Huntsmen) at the same time.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

If im honest this confused me. Trapper of Foes brings barely CC to the Table.
I hoped that Bards Arrow finally becomes a normal Skill.
Because the Minstrel, as a no CC class, got a better Bards Arrow as we do.

But i'm curious what you've planed for our class.
You have truly earned my trust through the last Hunterupdate.
Can't wait for more information on that topic.

I am all for a Bow and Blade Warrior. I have always thought it was silly to be shooting my bow at something that is 2 feet away. If they can give Hunters 3 solid options for playing styles I don't see why anyone would complain. Unless they want to control how other people play their class for some odd reason.

Originally Posted by Lothran

@ZC: I actually believe most of those in all three categories I tried to shove them in are actually willing to wait and see to some extent, but we're a somewhat battered and bruised lot from all the sharp turns the Turbine bus has made in the past with this (and other) classes, and so we're a bit skittish. With some really nice suggestions (and a few crackpot ideas) in the thread of ways we REALLY think you could improve the class, there's definitely room to do something here. Just hoping it does not include anything to do with shifting the class within melee range of the enemy, even if just in one of our 3 trait lines. Best to you!

this basically sums it up... I'm not in opposition to improvements or changes... I'm in opposition to doing it again and again and again in so short a time period. Though I am not a fan of the melee/ranged hybrid idea for this class... that's something a class like the Ranger should be if they ever decide to add more classes, and is something I would like alot... just not for the Hunter.

to be honest... the phrase "bow and blade" makes me think of melee/ranged combos... and some of the update2 changes add to that thoughline:

heart of the bard: combo with bard arrow bleed.
alternate OD set bonus: HS or SB remove induction for next barbed arrow

and then there is the pre-update 2 stuff:

swift stroke + agile rejoinder combo
barbed arrow + scourging blow combo

if the "bow and blade" combos were more potent, they could work... if there were more combos, it could work... if more melee skills added focus, it could work... if a melee combo skill was a focus attack, it could work. if melee skills do more damage so i don't have to lose DPS just because i'm in melee, it could work.

toss me in the "wait and see" bordering on "interested" camp...

yes, i'm optimistic... partly because of update2...

and i am one who really wants bowmaster divorced from S:S... we should be free to choose a stance based on the stances' inherent benefits/drawbacks... not based on how deep down a traitline we invest... because NOT investing deep down the OTHER traitlines makes the OTHER stances useless...

and i also think that bowmaster is not worth retraiting capstone for solo content because huntsman provides just as many kills almost as quickly... but that's just me i suppose. /shrug

Just a random lunch-time idea: what if Scourging Blow could have different additional effects (traited) when consuming the BA bleed, based on the current active stance?

Strength: Roots the target for 4s (useful for PVP and leveling I guess)
Precision: Gives 1 focus, or maybe applies a self-buff for... 8s that reduces focus cost by 1
Endurance: Further reduces aggro by xyz amount and/ or returns xyz amount of power

Could be a new trait called "Barbed Scourge" ~
It could replace a current HM trait, so that each trait line has a "Barbed something" trait in line, just for symmetry. Or it could even be the new HM legendary trait.

So long as I never hear the phrase -hunter tanking- ever again, I really could care less how the class is changed.

I've seen some good points being made by people who don't mind us going hybrid ranged/melee. I understand that making skills that have been mostly useless since .. (well since the start) should be changed so they get use except for some parry buff. I don't really see the need in changing our traitlines so that they may become useful. If our melee skills would be seriously buffed on the damage side I don't really see how that would make us too strong.

The main problem I have with melee is that there are only a few situations that I want to be in melee (esp. in raids). When I hear ranged/melee traitline I hear solo/pvp play. I enjoy raiding the most out of the time I spend in lotro and in OD hunters can't really take the damage that bosses do when standing around them. So my main fear is that I will loose a traitline I love using in raids.

I've said it in my previous post and Ill say it again. If ToF line would be buffed on "everything else" I think this is a perfect opportunity to buff melee and not ranged. Instead of giving us better/good dps I think this traitline should give some nice utility on our melee skills. Let the hunters debuff some mobs or buff fellow players with melee skills. Fighting other mobs in the vincinity of our chain stunned mobs adds a risk that if they get broken free we may be taking some hits. We are forced to NOT stay max ranged of our CC'd mobs if we want to melee others. I think this can make gameplay more interesting when traiting ToF.

The argument that while other classes traitlines differ a lot on ways of dps and our blue and red don't is incorrect and I don't mind that S:S is linked to the red traitline. I like that the red traitline is our barbarian playstyle. We don't care who we piss off and don't mind our power consumption and this fits strength stance perfectly. In this stance we get way more agro problems so maybe it would be more logical to add some better melee skills to this line since they will be close to us anyway (but no real need for it tbh).

The blue traitline (and it may not have been intended like this when the game got released but MMOs evolved dont they :P) is the hunter that stays back, doesn't want to draw extra attention on himself. He picks off his targets quietly and with precision. I think ZC should build upon the speed, threat and possibly on moving while dps'ing in this traitline. I'm not talking about letting us kite but letting us do our skills while moving at -50% speed (-50% speed would only apply if we were doing a skill ofc) would be fun (think poison OD and many other fights require us to move around a bit the whole time).

ZC should not change the blue traitline because it was intended to have some melee when they started with LOTRO. Hunters have been on a bad raiding spot since we got nerfed with Moria and with the last updated this has been improved a bit. I'll wait and see what ZC has for ideas but don't nerf our raiding capabilities again..

since we're on the idea of class revision:

how about new passive skills over 50?

~increased cap for crit chance... (or B/P/E for defensive classes)
~buffs for stances through passive skills...
~reduced inductions through passive skills... (i think this one particularly should be considered, as we have much more experience wielding our bows, so should be able to fire off arrows more quickly than when we were novices)
~reduced focus costs...
~increased melee/ranged offense (or healing for certain classes) rating through passive skills...
~incoming healing rating
~in combat power/morale regen

just brainstorming here... but the passives of course would be class specific, with maybe a few generic ones for all classes (like the offense/healing rating)

Whatever you do, please make sure that a hunter can compete with other damage dealers.

With the upcoming changes for Champs and the past changes for Burgs (not to forget about RKs either), it is time to step damage up a few notches...!

Originally Posted by Skofield

Whatever you do, please make sure that a hunter can compete with other damage dealers.

With the upcoming changes for Champs and the past changes for Burgs (not to forget about RKs either), it is time to step damage up a few notches...!

This sums it up. I do NOT want to become a hybrid range/melee/utility. Fail wardens can do that. I want to have 1 role, ranged DPS, and I want my class to live up to its 'nuker' description.

Guess I gotta reserve judgment until I see the actual changes, but I have to say, I'm worried. Hunters are in a better place now than they've EVER been in the history of the game. Red & blue lines are both great for different things. Strength & Precision are balanced perfectly. There are more good traits than there are slots (a good problem). There are multiple ways to trait. We have more useful skills in the rotation now that Barbed Arrow was improved, Blood Arrow added, and Merciful Shot & Heartseeker both rendered viable as part of a regular DPS rotation if appropriately traited.

I'm not usually one to be afraid of changes, but this has me worried. Improvement is welcomed, but endless tinkering for the sake of endless tinkering is a slippery slope.

Originally Posted by Aestis25

Guess I gotta reserve judgment until I see the actual changes, but I have to say, I'm worried. Hunters are in a better place now than they've EVER been in the history of the game. Red & blue lines are both great for different things. Strength & Precision are balanced perfectly. There are more good traits than there are slots (a good problem). There are multiple ways to trait. We have more useful skills in the rotation now that Barbed Arrow was improved, Blood Arrow added, and Merciful Shot & Heartseeker both rendered viable as part of a regular DPS rotation if appropriately traited.

I'm not usually one to be afraid of changes, but this has me worried. Improvement is welcomed, but endless tinkering for the sake of endless tinkering is a slippery slope.

+1

./10char

::cracks knuckles::

First off, to the "but we just got updated!" people. Rumblings in other class forums may have begun to tip you off that more then just the Hunter is getting some work. We haven't made global announcements yet, but I think it may be fairly clear where this is going. Also, it will be some months before anything I've teased here hits game.

Next, I want to give a big thankyou to the whole Hunter community here. The debate and discussion has been very helpful! I very much wanted to just throw some chum in the water and see what happened. While I didn't know exactly what to expect, I'm glad for what I did get.

So, keeping in mind that we are still not out of the planning phase for the changes, here is a little more about where my head is at.

Bowmaster: My main goal is to remove the strong tie to Strength Stance. This does not mean nerfs, only that the buffs Bowmaster bestows onto S:S will apply regardless of stance. This change indicates a general shift in the stance design on the class. All stance altering traits and set bonuses will be repurposed and their buffs will be redistributed. My intention is to allow Hunters of all traitlines the ability to change stance based on circumstances. As part of this, I'll be changing the stances around to ensure each of them is better at what they do well. Besides that the Bowmaster will be very close to what it is now.

Huntsman: While I knew that bringing up melee would pique peoples curiosity, I admit to being taken aback by how much negativity it generated. Legolas quickly dispatching enemies at range and in melee is the archtype the class was built on and one that many still identify with. A monthly update was not enough time to make the kind that would bring the Huntsman up to a Legolas standard, but an expansion is. Before I say anymore, yes, I understand that Hunters do not use melee much. I believe that this is more because that there is little reason or benefit, not because it isn't exciting to switch between melee and ranged combat during a fight. However, it seems I did my job too well in the last update, many are rather fond of the state the Huntsman is in and do not want it changed. Such feedback has effected me, and I'm backing off from making the Huntsman a melee/ranged hybrid. Instead, minor edits like Bowmaster will be made, mainly removing traits that effect specific stances.
That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

Trapper of Foes: "But you just made it awesome, don't nerf it!" Don't worry, I'm not changing Trapper to nerf it. When the last update hit, a lot of feedback on the line was focused on the damage reduction still being unappreciated, and penshot still not being what people hoped for. I intend on changing both of those. Further, the realities of endgame are that CC is often negated by boss mechanics, making a class that CC's focus on support through debuffs, buffs or restoration. The trapper will trade some of his straight CC for more generally applicable support abilities. Lastly, I'm going to try to add new trap mechanics in that make the Trapper more about traps!

I think that's the important stuff. I'm going to be out for two weeks after this, so don't expect any more info any time soon. Please do continue discussing things, talking about what you want and don't want, and focus on examples, not hyperbole

GL, HF!

I still think it is silly to be firing off bow shots at melee range. Especially ones that have a long induction time. You would be helpless to fend off attacks while doing this sort of thing. That's why Legolas switched to melee weapons in the first place.

I would not advise changing your original thoughts due to some vocal folks on the forum. That is a bad precedent.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Huntsman: ...
That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

hmm, that might actually make melee useful... adding focus and +ranged dmg. could be interesting with Resolute Aim and Needful Haste to help with inductions

interesting

We should have a stance that allows us to hit hard from range. This should be the stance that hunters would use at most times. We are primarily a ranged class. When in this stance we should receive a damage bonus to ranged skills and be able to compete against other damage dealers. We are primarily a damage dealing class.

Another stance should be a melee stance. It would improve our melee damage. Once we are forced into melee combat, we would gain a benefit from switching to this stance, i.e. once in melee range, this stance should be the one that is most efficient. Overall the damage output should be lower than what we deal while using the "ranged" stance, so hunters would have an incentive to stay at range.

The last stance should be a hybrid stance. It would deal slightly less damage than the "ranged" stance, but slightly more than the "melee" stance.

If hunters have the choice, they should always stay at range. This is what we are. If for some reason we are force into melee combat, then switching to a more appropriate stance would be the best option. Then of course there would be encounters where our opponents would go in and out of melee range. For these encounters the hybrid stance should be most efficient.

And as you already had in mind, untie the stances from the traitlines. They should not have anything to do with it. I believe the traitlines are almost where they should be. We need one that deals damage in a "slow" manner (longer inductions, higher damage per skill), one that gives you more flexibility (shorter inductions, lower damage per skill) and one that lets us CC and support group play (remove poison). And please do remove the focus loss penalty for movement.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

My main goal is to remove the strong tie to Strength Stance. This does not mean nerfs, only that the buffs Bowmaster bestows onto S:S will apply regardless of stance. This change indicates a general shift in the stance design on the class. All stance altering traits and set bonuses will be repurposed and their buffs will be redistributed. My intention is to allow Hunters of all traitlines the ability to change stance based on circumstances. As part of this, I'll be changing the stances around to ensure each of them is better at what they do well.

Will be interesting to see what you have planned for Precision Stance in this regard, since currently most of it's value is in the buffs it gets from Huntsman traits.