At rank 0, a fresh 65 freep is probably about halfway to their plateau power/skill-wise. They will hit that plateau after they have done some of the smaller things like gearing up, and getting their traits, and improve their LI's and such.
At rank 0, a fresh creep has not even started towards getting to their plateau. They are at the very bottom of the barrel. By rank 15 they will have reached their plateau, and I imagine that they will be an absolutely terrifying monster.
We're fighting over everything that happens in between there. I've seen a lot of new creeps lately, and hopefully(hopefully!) they will stick around. I've been playing on my weaver for a couple days now, and I love pvp even more than I did on my freep. I've been working on my maps, raiding with a really spectacular raid leader, and occasionally even rolling over some freep raids. It really has been great.
I still don't understand everyone's beef with dying. It happens. Yes, it's annoying to lose a fight, or get ganked...but sometimes you just have to get over it. ESPECIALLY when you are a creep. As a freep, dying is annoying because if you lost a fight that you never had a hope of winning, it is a lot more complicated to get your character higher up the chain. As a creep, you just have to hit the next rank.
At rank 0, a fresh 65 freep is probably about halfway to their plateau power/skill-wise. They will hit that plateau after they have done some of the smaller things like gearing up, and getting their traits, and improve their LI's and such.
At rank 0, a fresh creep has not even started towards getting to their plateau. They are at the very bottom of the barrel. By rank 15 they will have reached their plateau, and I imagine that they will be an absolutely terrifying monster.
We're fighting over everything that happens in between there. I've seen a lot of new creeps lately, and hopefully(hopefully!) they will stick around. I've been playing on my weaver for a couple days now, and I love pvp even more than I did on my freep. I've been working on my maps, raiding with a really spectacular raid leader, and occasionally even rolling over some freep raids. It really has been great.
I still don't understand everyone's beef with dying. It happens. Yes, it's annoying to lose a fight, or get ganked...but sometimes you just have to get over it. ESPECIALLY when you are a creep. As a freep, dying is annoying because if you lost a fight that you never had a hope of winning, it is a lot more complicated to get your character higher up the chain. As a creep, you just have to hit the next rank.
Rank 12 or 13 is when a creep reaches their plateau, the rest is really just badass skins and useless traits.
It's not just a matter of rank when it comes to winning or losing a battle, i know you didn't mean that, but back when i first started playing my warden in the moors i was losing to rank 3 wargs. Now i can beat three or four of them at once if they are trying to maul on me the whole time. It's just a matter of trial and error, and trying new things. Changing the way you think about things is not a hurtful exercise!
Glad you are having fun out there!
And yes, beef is good, but should not be as part of your main dietary consumption as most take it.
Dernière modification par Untg99 ; 28/04/2011 à 06h57.
If you are focused on not dying, you will be less aggressive (I have personally observed this.) in your raid leading. The most effective leaders on both sides are the ones that lead from the front.
Usually the freep front is a ball, so techincally everyone is in front. But I'm not gonna argue my leading skills, they probably suck atm, so won't argue there haha.
Envoyé par Acor
Honest men can disagree, and we will have to disagree here. In my personal experience target callesr do a better job when they no longer have to worry about staying alive. I have listened to raid leaders do just as good a job of calling tactics when they are dead as when they are alive. The bottom line is they bring enthusiasm and talent to the task, and they delegate. In observing you personally I have noticed you have a problem with this. You tend to micromanage, or try to. The result is the raid becomes too dependent on you, then when you are not there, or dead, they fall apart. Compare this to TDH when Ach dies, or Rain.
I'll agree here, much easier to call targets while dead. But usually if i'm dead, somethings going wrong lol. But again, were going back to my raid leading skills, of which I won't argue with cause i'm not confident in them atm.
Envoyé par Acor
This absolutely makes my point. You are thinking about YOUR rank and YOUR infamy. This is so characteristic of higher ranked Creeps it is almost stereotypical. I could not have made the point any better.
Yeah, except I have a time limit on my time on windy from now till Oct 28, for when I go to Fort Leonard Wood. So kinda wanna get this outta my way before I delegate my time to teaching everyone. (Also got the finals and such but thats easy) All my soloing is basing it on time, I want r11. I don't want to not get it when I have to leave. That is my reason behind it.
Envoyé par Acor
Your first part is a fair point. If you are always burdened with the leadership role I don't doubt you may get burned out. But I have seen more and more that you seem to play alone. If you want to make things better you need to step up sometimes and lead for the sake of the game quality you seem to prize. If you can fix something and you don't you share a greater fault than those who just can't.
Previous statement.
Envoyé par Acor
And you expect to get to know them by ignoring and/or ostracizing them? I contrast this with my experience as a noob Freep where several vet Freeps spent time showing me how to play my character in PvP and accelerating my learning curve from PvE to PvP. How much more difficult must it be for a new Creep who has never even acquired the PvE experience? And yet the vets seem to put no time into helping them, expecting them to get this knowledge through some sort of osmosis.
Well I have actually helped people, believe or not. So I'll just say this to anyone that wants to pvmp on creepside. http://www.theblackappendage.com/monstermanual <--------GO TO THAT LINK AND READ PLZ, will answer most of your questions.
Envoyé par Acor
No, I said I had PvPd with TDH since June, and that we had seen the numbers of Creeps, esp vet Creeps, dwindle as recently as last December.
Ok my mistake, but my point still stands. You have the leadership of someone who's pvp'd a lot, and then the teamwork of a raiding kin. Of course your gonna do good. We on creepside don't have that luxury. People come over to creepside all joy filled and stuff, but then they realize "Oh ????, this is harder than freepside." So then two things will happen, they stay, or go. (completely negelecting the negative effect of creepside) Which means that our creeps are continuing to be recycled, people leave, people come over. We don't have that core group anymore to fall back on. This could be due to numerous things, but as someone else pointed out in this thread, new content just came out, so the moors were bound to be ????. And on the dwindling of creeps, you have no idea why they left. Sure they left when you guys were on your way up. That gives you no right to say "Oh we totally forced them outta the moors!" Should just forget about it, like I said, I'll be making my way out of windy as of Oct, and only my kin knew about that, just shows that you can't speculate about a persons playstyle, why they leaving or w.e. unless you know them personally, like you said about Shack.
Envoyé par Acor
Another fair point, and well taken. But if the remaining vets all adopt your attitude(s) about getting infamy, ranking up, etc. this situation will only get worse. N.B. TDH did not cause this problem. The reluctance of senior Creeps to mentor their "seed corn" did. And until/unless you all start working together to make it better, it will only get worse.
Well, going toward the vet creeps comment, please please please! go to my post about me calling freeps ezmode and giving my reasons why. I don't think any of that is false, and would love to see ONE PERSON actually read it besides Arathain. The thing is vets have finally figured out that freeps were built to win in the moors, period. I have figured that out which is why I'm going to always laugh at freeps calling creeps OP from now on lol.
So yeah, I would like people to comment more on the truthful post that freeps are always going to hold all of the cards and such.
Trapped in a community of cells, commonly referred to as a body
Messages
132
Re: where are you high ranked creeps?
Envoyé par Alisre
Well, going toward the vet creeps comment, please please please! go to my post about me calling freeps ezmode and giving my reasons why. I don't think any of that is false, and would love to see ONE PERSON actually read it besides Arathain.
Have read that post, and huge kudos, Arga, was a fantastic post.
But while overall odds are stacked against creeps, there will also always be times when odds will change favour, may it simply be due to numbers out at a given time in the moors. Thing is, then complaints start about creeps only being able to succeed when the odds do change in such ways for them (or when they use warg pack tactics to force odds into their favour).
But well.. it IS about odds for most parts, and whoever holds the better ones at the time will win in the moors.
Winning or losing says little about someone, in my view, but how they handle either of it - that proves character and ability.
Have read that post, and huge kudos, Arga, was a fantastic post.
But while overall odds are stacked against creeps, there will also always be times when odds will change favour, may it simply be due to numbers out at a given time in the moors. Thing is, then complaints start about creeps only being able to succeed when the odds do change in such ways for them (or when they use warg pack tactics to force odds into their favour).
But well.. it IS about odds for most parts, and whoever holds the better ones at the time will win in the moors.
Winning or losing says little about someone, in my view, but how they handle either of it - that proves character and ability.
<3 Tiny and Constrictions
Yes it is true, that in certain circumstances, the odds do change. The only two factors that can change from what I said are the numbers, which was stated. But the other factor, which was not stated, is the ability of the side. If freeps suck and don't know how to play (coming from an even stance, as in the numbers are even.) They will lose because of their ability (although going along with the other factors, it will probably be an even exchange because of those factors). Same with creeps. I made that post so then people can see that what you expect of creeps, is to virtually out preform Freeps in everyway, essentially play perfectly, to stay on par with freeps.
Trapped in a community of cells, commonly referred to as a body
Messages
132
Re: where are you high ranked creeps?
Envoyé par Alisre
But the other factor, which was not stated, is the ability of the side. If freeps suck and don't know how to play (coming from an even stance, as in the numbers are even.) They will lose because of their ability (although going along with the other factors, it will probably be an even exchange because of those factors). Same with creeps.
*huggles Arga and smiles brightly* 150% agreement ^^
In all honesty, my greatest fun moments in the moors are when the odds ARE against us, and I end running through a whole freep raid after one target, and I know I will fall, but if I can nonetheless manage to bring the target down too (most times already dead, but I watch the poison or bleed tick away, then go WOOOOOOT when the target doesn't get a heal in time to be saved :P). Feels like an achievement then.
I often actually feel sorry for freeps, as I think they don't get those moments as much.
i cant believe have this freep/creep discussion with a straight face. creeps are designed to outnumber you for survival. just because some rank "insert generic rank scary icon" rofl pwns you its basically because youre not used to possible threats theyre not really superior in anyway.
if you wanted to waste the time n run down the lists of strengths then weaknesses indepth of both sides youd laugh at rank 12 creepside capabilities.
i spend most of my days in the moors going solo on freepside or duoing occasionally groups of 4 n that literally is enough most of the time even if larger creep groups (read 8 to 14) are out. rank doesnt apply at all. 11s die just as fast.
This is because there aren't big groups of high ranked creeps to fight on windfola, the average group rank is between 6 and 7 at best. You just don't get the groups of all r9+ roaming around together over here. Rank does make a huge difference to the capability of the creeps. Freeps have more tools, but ranked creeps still have more than enough tools to be effective.
Votan | Xeyila | Grisburnakh
Retired - Thanks for the fun and the fights
We could have been nerfed more Ryu (Not sure on how much more gimp they could make the BA but I'm sure Turbine could think of a way.) so shush!
Bleh Wrok, I haven't actually gotten solo with any freeps since the update, but i don't even feel like i could solo a hunter anymore....maybe if i blew literally every CD i have...but ???. lol in group combat blackarrows are essentially pointless now.
situationally at best votan. if you have even slightly a decent class match up youll roll through uruk heals etc just as easily.creep dps healing is just bad minus the reaver n they have alot of limitation in exchange for that. most of th ehigh ranked scenarios involve a group of very nice one percenter pvpers on creeps that theyve been on for years vs a mixed bag of goldtagging (read hlaf newbie/raidbaby) freeps. if said freeps are grouped have some experience with real fights itll be a rofl stomp.
and btw that applies to like any pvp game regardless of actual balance. i dont believe its counter argument to class capapbility.
situationally at best votan. if you have even slightly a decent class match up youll roll through uruk heals etc just as easily.creep dps healing is just bad minus the reaver n they have alot of limitation in exchange for that. most of th ehigh ranked scenarios involve a group of very nice one percenter pvpers on creeps that theyve been on for years vs a mixed bag of goldtagging (read hlaf newbie/raidbaby) freeps. if said freeps are grouped have some experience with real fights itll be a rofl stomp.
and btw that applies to like any pvp game regardless of actual balance. i dont believe its counter argument to class capapbility.
I'm getting mixed signals from these posts...
So creeps are hopeless no matter of rank, and dps traited creeps aren't effective, and freeps with experience can pwn creeps with experience blindfolded and using a fish as their main weapon?
no im saying the argument for the relative balance for the moors is always as follows, well i you have x number ofrank 9 creeps they can be effective. thats only ever true because of a mismatch in experience or classes because the rank 9 creeps are in a small elite group in this scenario and are normally very top end pvpers.
that in any pvp scenario willget you wins now n then. im just saying is even that wont work in the moors if the freep group is anywhere near the creeps group level of expereince n god forbid has a hoh cappy n a good mini.
n to be honest i think the arugment that a good group or rank 9s can be effective just underscores the intentional debalance of the moors. i really dont know why people argue over it when its there in your combat logs.
no im saying the argument for the relative balance for the moors is always as follows, well i you have x number ofrank 9 creeps they can be effective. thats only ever true because of a mismatch in experience or classes because the rank 9 creeps are in a small elite group in this scenario and are normally very top end pvpers.
that in any pvp scenario willget you wins now n then. im just saying is even that wont work in the moors if the freep group is anywhere near the creeps group level of expereince n god forbid has a hoh cappy n a good mini.
n to be honest i think the arugment that a good group or rank 9s can be effective just underscores the intentional debalance of the moors. i really dont know why people argue over it when its there in your combat logs.
So if a balanced freep and creep group with equivalent experience(and rank) face each other, you are saying freeps are going to win pretty much every time?
So if a balanced freep and creep group with equivalent experience(and rank) face each other, you are saying freeps are going to win pretty much every time?
That statement is pretty much correct. Freeps are made to fight larger groups, creeps are made to have more numbers and more deaths in order to succeed. Creep Dps is all single target aside from 2-3 reaver skills and I think 1 black arrow skill. Freep damage has both single target and AoEs, Loremasters and Champions primarily, but every class has some form of AoE the least of these being the Captain, Burglars, and Runekeepers. Freeps also have better healing in general, and also better CC.
So while Creeps may win the fight in the normal sense, the enemy is no longer on the field, they lose in terms of loss versus kills, which is how I always gauge my standards of success.
So basically if it were even numbers, class makeup, and experience the freeps should win. Its just how the game design is currently.
This is of course Assuming the experienced people do not mess up and this is a straight up fight with no searching or flanking involved, those variables have helped me win in situations where I should have lost :P.
Dernière modification par elros9999 ; 28/04/2011 à 11h39.
So if a balanced freep and creep group with equivalent experience(and rank) face each other, you are saying freeps are going to win pretty much every time?
That statement is pretty much correct. Freeps are made to fight larger groups, creeps are made to have more numbers and more deaths in order to succeed. Creep Dps is all single target aside from 2-3 reaver skills and I think 1 black arrow skill. Freep damage has both single target and AoEs, Loremasters and Champions primarily, but every class has some form of AoE the least of these being the Captain, Burglars, and Runekeepers. Freeps also have better healing in general, and also better CC.
So while Creeps may win the fight in the normal sense, the enemy is no longer on the field, they lose in terms of loss versus kills, which is how I always gauge my standards of success.
So basically if it were even numbers, class makeup, and experience the freeps should win. Its just how the game design is currently.
This is of course Assuming the experienced people do not mess up and this is a straight up fight with no searching or flanking involved, those variables have helped me win in situations where I should have lost :P.
Right, i understand how it works. Just my 1am scrambled egg-brains struggled to depict what he was trying to say. D:
Athilius (Champ)
You also raided the Watcher and Rift with Mercs Guild when Wukash and I were the leaders.
So in other words, PvP in this game sux and will never be good (balanced) until they make mirrored classes with zone limits?
WERD!
Your name is vaguely familiar. And who could ever forget Wukash?! Isn't he the 50dkp guy on UTube? Were you a contemporary of Benwah? During the time frame I am thinking of I don't believe I even had a RK, or if I did he was very low level. Ben arranged an alliance between The Oaths and the Mercs that eventually led to some Oaths joining the Mercs after book 7 when the Oaths left the game almost en masse in disgust. Is this roughly the right time frame?
Killing a Boogan somm'ers, 'cause they remind me of Bogarts.
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2 807
Re: where are you high ranked creeps?
Envoyé par Acor
Your name is vaguely familiar. And who could ever forget Wukash?! Isn't he the 50dkp guy on UTube? Were you a contemporary of Benwah? During the time frame I am thinking of I don't believe I even had a RK, or if I did he was very low level. Ben arranged an alliance between The Oaths and the Mercs that eventually led to some Oaths joining the Mercs after book 7 when the Oaths left the game almost en masse in disgust. Is this roughly the right time frame?
I have no idea where you got that second part.
Acor
I remember a Wukash. Our kin still has this running joke of "Who keeps hitting yellow?!?"
This was early in the game and at the time Wukash must not have understood the FMs. As a kin, we tended to hit yellow on the large mobs when they above half and red when they were below half. Anything thing else no one really cared. It was a hit what you needed kinda thing.
Wukash joined our group once. He would be the first to hit red. Most would hit red, but every now and them some one would hit a yellow. We would hear him ask over voice chat "Who keeps hitting yellow?" This went on during the whole night. Our kin was thinking he just didn't understand what the Yellow FM did, but weren't concerned enough to say anything. Plus we were getting a kick out of the "Who keeps hitting Yellow?!?"
A few night later Wukash joined another group we were with. Except this time Wukash was on a "Who keeps hitting Red" kick. We were all thinking, wow some one must have told him what yellow does.
Ever since then, anytime someone hits an odd color we all say "Who keeps hitting Yellow?" no matter the color actually hit.
****Bogarts! We hates Bogarts!****
Best Mod quote EVER = "Closing the thread, as the OP has quit the forums." - Patience
I just don't think that people are giving creeps their due credit. I have seen creep raids absolutely dominate freeps when we have slightly more, or even equal numbers because we either used a tactic that threw them off guard, or because we had really good organization in general. Just last night, Grawbaza pulled a raid together and we held our own for quite awhile against some members of TDH (Acor and Gandolfien were there as well, if you need proof that creeps aren't totally helpless). I also saw Rainithir, and Troja, and a whole bunch of other higher ranked freeps. They had more numbers, higher ranks, and we still held our own. We lost in the end, but it was still a fun time.
I also like the atmosphere on the creepside better. People say that there's a lot of anger over here...but I don't see it.
Dernière modification par Minelavaa ; 28/04/2011 à 15h27.
I just don't think that people are giving creeps their due credit. I have seen creep raids absolutely dominate freeps when we have slightly more, or even equal numbers because we either used a tactic that threw them off guard, or because we had really good organization in general. Just last night, Grawbaza pulled a raid together and we held our own for quite awhile against some members of TDH (Acor and Gandolfien were there as well, if you need proof that creeps aren't totally helpless). I also saw Rainithir, and Troja, and a whole bunch of other higher ranked freeps. They had more numbers, higher ranks, and we still held our own. We lost in the end, but it was still a fun time.
I also like the atmosphere on the creepside better. People say that there's a lot of anger over here...but I don't see it.
Just cause TDH was there, doesn't mean they were organized. Oh,and what do you consider a high rank, just curious.
Yes, creepside is pretty fun. The worst thing thats happened over there for me was when i got a nasty tell from a greenie who i killed at HH :P other then that, its been fun
Treefnakh r6 warg Neverfear r7 WL, Treefraas r4 BA
I just don't think that people are giving creeps their due credit. I have seen creep raids absolutely dominate freeps when we have slightly more, or even equal numbers because we either used a tactic that threw them off guard, or because we had really good organization in general. Just last night, Grawbaza pulled a raid together and we held our own for quite awhile against some members of TDH (Acor and Gandolfien were there as well, if you need proof that creeps aren't totally helpless). I also saw Rainithir, and Troja, and a whole bunch of other higher ranked freeps. They had more numbers, higher ranks, and we still held our own. We lost in the end, but it was still a fun time.
I also like the atmosphere on the creepside better. People say that there's a lot of anger over here...but I don't see it.
Its been awesome mostly because its not easy mode. Just want to say thanks to the peeps that have switched with me for the challenge
Tribe informed me that "my legacy" was living on and I thought I'd drop in and say what's up. I quit LotRO for the longest time mainly due to the fact that PvP was dead (while most of my time was wasted wandering around the ettenmoors for hours in search of a freep). Although I must say that there are few improvements, the main improvement I'm searching for is a new area and less down time (from a PvP perspective). To Acor, yeah man my lady and I are good and I am getting married soon where we will continue to indulge in many videogames in our lifetime. I want to return, but for now the only thing bringing me back is server maintenance on another game every Tuesday morning. I miss you guys too, maybe you should mail my inbox your vent info so I can drop in and say what's up (because I'm still a pretty avid gamer).
I've typed more than I myself would care to read.
-Peace out girl scouts
Shackdaddy
P.S. I did not forget about you too Ath, hope you guys are still gaming hard and that the first major PvP update is good
Dernière modification par lixender ; 28/04/2011 à 20h20.
Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn!
Oh, and don't forget to Rest in Peace...
Point is, creeps complaining about being underpowered need to consider that only after the time someone has spent getting to lvl 65 is put in, should they be as "good" as a lvl 65. The argument works the other way as well. I'd bet any r9 creep on this server could beat any new freep in the moors. As it should be. Does ranking suck early on for creeps? Hell yeah. But the rewards for putting the time into it are well worth it. Just don't expect to be soloing experienced freeps for a while (with exceptions of course).
Just for the sake of healthy argument, if the freep knows what they are doing (ie they understand their classes role, along with it's strengths and weaknesses, and has a wound pot) beating my r9 ba shouldn't be that much of a stretch. I mean an rk could faceroll their keyboard and win, a burg should beat me every time, i don't even need to mention guards and wardens, or champs for that matter, I haven't 1v1'd any cappies since this update, but i think their muster courage heal could out heal my current dps. LM can wind lore their way to victory, hunter if they haven't pvp'd i could probably kill them, but i don't think. Minnies drop bombs.
and even at r9, i don't "expect" to solo experienced freeps. i just laugh when i win, and i don't think zomg i'm awesome, i just think zomg, they are terrible. But that's the beauty of playing a black arrow, you can separate the really terrible players from the generally competent ones.
Dernière modification par Greyowyn ; 29/04/2011 à 00h05.
Motif: edit: hi shacklez! i miss you tons. just fyi.
OOC Webfoot: 'the women in general have been stronger players as a group'
Eleetist Juicebag
TvT Terminated.
WHOOT sHACK! I am glad to hear things are working out so well for you and your lady Please give a big hug to her from Sael and I. Right after you do that get her a lotro account of her own! Seriously, all our best and we do hope to see you back in Middle Earth soon. I hear it is a great place for a honeymoon <vbg>!
Just cause TDH was there, doesn't mean they were organized. Oh,and what do you consider a high rank, just curious.
Yes, creepside is pretty fun. The worst thing thats happened over there for me was when i got a nasty tell from a greenie who i killed at HH :P other then that, its been fun
Though you never got me at HH, I should send you a tell everytime i see you online to complaint about something...
If it isn't about FlameThrower, Grenade and Rocket Launcher, you're playing the wrong classes, race and game..
even nash has some good points, the vets simply arent here (well most of them). i wouldnt consider any of the r6 or 7 creeps here vets, no disrespect to those guys, but we lost alot.
Just picked this out.
I dunno if i'm simply defending myself here, but theres a ton of people who dont stick to one toon, but who have been around since SoA.
I have 4 rank 7's and 2(3?) rank 6's, most of which are freeps. Perhaps you are referring to dedicated creepside vets?
acor is under the impression that the vet creeps left because they apparently talked too much trash, made ez infamy then when the freep raids started rollin the vets couldnt handle the humiliation and left. i dunno maybe he's referring to warpath, but the rest of us are talking about days long before them.
Warpath was formed in summer '10 by about 20 core members, 19 of which had been playing the game mere weeks/days. It grew to about 80 members within a month and all could be considered noobs. The whole point was to fight the freeps head on (or flank) regardless of numbers. I was tired of the staring contests. Infamy and renown were raging for 3 months. The vets did not like this shift in power and yes ur right they talked too much trash towards us and 90% of our members just said f-this and pretty much stopped creeping.
So anyways yea, there could be many more ppls (aggressive ones too) in the moors these days, but thank all the supervets(who have bailed since they cant stand up to the freeps anymore) for chasing away most of the fresh meat.
As to freeps > creeps, its pretty clear, however with some tactics, determination, and the proper classes (not wargs) creeps can even the odds much more effectively.
Cheezies and pron for everyone! 8D
Dernière modification par realmregulator ; 01/05/2011 à 02h20.
As to freeps > creeps, its pretty clear, however with some tactics, determination, and the proper classes (not wargs) creeps can even the odds much more effectively.
Cheezies and pron for everyone! 8D
Not wargs? You make me sadface
"Invader's blood marches through my veins like radioactive rubber pants! The pants command me, do not ignore my veins!"-Zim
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****Bogarts! We hates Bogarts!****
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If it isn't about FlameThrower, Grenade and Rocket Launcher, you're playing the wrong classes, race and game..
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"Invader's blood marches through my veins like radioactive rubber pants! The pants command me, do not ignore my veins!"-Zim
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