Thread: Introductions and Design Intent

Originally Posted by TUX426

Why am I in the minority? Because you say I am? I disagree.

You observe people who give up when they're outnumbered, not because of "zerging" but because it takes more effort to overcome numbers. Being outnumbered is when PvP is the BEST (imo) because that is when YOU control it. You decide when and where the fights will take place and zerging is what allows the fighting to continue.

PvP is about the fight and I'll take the 3 hour long zerg fests that result in NOTHING happening, other than the fight, over taking a keep or outpost any day.

I have no idea what server you play on, but my statement that you are in the minority is based on what I have heard in OOC, read on the forums and heard from my tribe members. I have known people who have just quit the game because of the unbalance in numbers.

I also fail to see how you see zerging as being something you control. Unless you are saying that you are zergging, then of course, you are in control. You're in control with your overwhelming odds.

I would rather see the days when LOTRO was in its infancy when there was two raids on either side battling it out. The fights were epic back then and exciting. Yet, to try to fend for yourself with 3 to one or greater odds is not fun at all.

Originally Posted by pinkfae

I also fail to see how you see zerging as being something you control. Unless you are saying that you are zergging, then of course, you are in control. You're in control with your overwhelming odds.

I would rather see the days when LOTRO was in its infancy when there was two raids on either side battling it out. The fights were epic back then and exciting. Yet, to try to fend for yourself with 3 to one or greater odds is not fun at all.

I don't get your 1st comment because I never said zerging gives you any control. If I'm the one doing the zerging, I'm the one dying, which means I'm outnumbered. I'll zerg and run back to the fight 100x's over if it's a good fun fight and there's a chance we can do something (capture something or kill), otherwise I use the "zerg" to run to another area to fight.

And...I'm fairly new to lotro, so you have me on the whole "way back when" thing. But lotro is kinda cool in that, switching sides isn't that hard. Maybe the players should take more responsibility in evening up the fights than they do.

I have never done MP (not a subscriber). But from reading the comments it seems lack of integration and sufficient rewards are the biggest problems (aside from balance issues). What if one could play their creep in LOTRO proper upon achieving rank 10 (which I've gathered is the highest)? The idea of "real" PvP is appealing...

Originally Posted by pinkfae

........I would rather see the days when LOTRO was in its infancy when there was two raids on either side battling it out. The fights were epic back then and exciting. Yet, to try to fend for yourself with 3 to one or greater odds is not fun at all.

I wasn't in the moors at the beginning but started in book 9 and at least on Brandywine we didn't raid on the creep side except to do Ost while the freeps always raided when they had the numbers for it. So I'm not sure what infancy you are talking about when raiding only became the norm after moria when raid infamy shot up.

But as a full time creep I only enjoy the moors when we are outnumbered because when it's more even or we outnumber the freeps these super exciting raid wars are only fun for the folks in the raids and only when they are fighting and not running willy nilly around trying to avoid losing. I would much rather fight over a keep or some other control point that 'slug' it out raid on raid. But that's just me.

Originally Posted by TUX426

I don't get your 1st comment because I never said zerging gives you any control. If I'm the one doing the zerging, I'm the one dying, which means I'm outnumbered. I'll zerg and run back to the fight 100x's over if it's a good fun fight and there's a chance we can do something (capture something or kill), otherwise I use the "zerg" to run to another area to fight.

And...I'm fairly new to lotro, so you have me on the whole "way back when" thing. But lotro is kinda cool in that, switching sides isn't that hard. Maybe the players should take more responsibility in evening up the fights than they do.

I understand you now. I actually see zergging as the other way around. The zerg, to me, is the side with the most people. Yet, not just the most people, the side with numbers that are overwhelming.

I don't mind if people like to zerg or like to be zergged. After all, it is just a game and people will find different things within the game entertaining. Yet, I would like to see an alternative to the 'Moors for those that don't like to take part in the zerg, either side.

By the way, I dislike people that say "I've been here longer then you, so I know more." If I came across that way, I apologize. In fact, I think those who are new to the game bring in some of the best ideas when leading raids, just for the fact the veterans will do the same tricks over and over again.

Originally Posted by Crispian

I have never done MP (not a subscriber). But from reading the comments it seems lack of integration and sufficient rewards are the biggest problems (aside from balance issues). What if one could play their creep in LOTRO proper upon achieving rank 10 (which I've gathered is the highest)? The idea of "real" PvP is appealing...

It's rank 15 but for most that is not attainable so those pretty skills you'd like to try you will most likely never see. In my opinion it was a error in design from the beginning but understandable beings pvp was thrown in at the last minute.

The pvp is fun though but hardly ever balanced as that is really just a myth that pvp'rs in all games complain about and in lotro it's not really something you will ever see considering the difference in skill types. Numbers balance can be a big problem when folks flood to the winning side (currently only possible when going creep to freep or by logging in as a creep first to check the battle numbers). This is also a design error in my opinion.

Rewards though are the key and since the free person side really has no reward for ranking other than pvp armor and gets no benefit to their skills is badly needed and has been requested for years. I've posted many times suggesting ideas to benefit the pvp world of lotro just like so many others and mostly our requests have gone unanswered. Hopefully, that is going to change.

Originally Posted by MummyLord

I wasn't in the moors at the beginning but started in book 9 and at least on Brandywine we didn't raid on the creep side except to do Ost while the freeps always raided when they had the numbers for it. So I'm not sure what infancy you are talking about when raiding only became the norm after moria when raid infamy shot up.

Actually on Landroval, raiding creep side died out about the time of Moria. At the beginning of LOTRO when all creeps out there were green and/or under rank three it was very hard to fight against freeps that had more skills then you did. Once the creeps got more powerful they started to solo more. There has always been small groups and at least one open raid freep side since I've been playing out in the 'Moors.

What I was trying to say was that back when in late 2007 there was 48 vs. 48 out in the 'Moors. Most of them were grouped up together, but not all of them. I was just saying that I loved the large numbers that were, for the most part, balanced in numbers.

Originally Posted by pinkfae

Actually on Landroval, raiding creep side died out about the time of Moria. At the beginning of LOTRO when all creeps out there were green and/or under rank three it was very hard to fight against freeps that had more skills then you did. Once the creeps got more powerful they started to solo more. There has always been small groups and at least one open raid freep side since I've been playing out in the 'Moors.

What I was trying to say was that back when in late 2007 there was 48 vs. 48 out in the 'Moors. Most of them were grouped up together, but not all of them. I was just saying that I loved the large numbers that were, for the most part, balanced in numbers.

Well book 9 was going in july 07 when I started and creeps didn't raid because the infamy was so low so soloing or grouping was the norm on BW until Moria and the hunter scourge when the best infamy came from raiding and freep power was overwhelming. It seems odd thats your server went against the best infamy and the huge freep power increase but if you say it was so then what can I say other than that seems odd.

Originally Posted by MithrilSoul

... the biggest factor holding me back from PvPing is, quite frankly, it's not worth my time..... [Turbine should offer] meaningful rewards that come from PvP and that are proportionate in their "value" to what it would take to get those rewards in the PvE game world. ...meaningful benefits and rewards for even relatively minimal time spent. ....I'm saying give rewards that are commensurate to the types of rewards people can get spending their time in the PvE world...

This is a very interesting point, MithrilSoul. MMO's are truly about progression, character advancement. That drives so many, leaving only, presumably, a minority who play the PvMP portion of the game just for the fun of it (though I have done this myself and can relate). I know my own approach is to max out all of my characters in PvE (or at least get to the point of diminishing returns) then spend my time PvMP until new PvE content is released.

There is progression on the creep side, but after the first 5 or so ranks it slows down, and by rank 9 or 10 it is ridiculously slow, and there are so few new skills/traits/benefits to creeps at higher ranks that it barely seems worth pursuing. There is also little progression on the freep side for the reasons you and others have mentioned (freeps get nearly zero benefit from achieving the next rank, or at best an incremental piece of armor, a cosmetic cloak, or a mount that looks like one that's easy to get PvE).

I agree that both sides should be given rewards, and progression, that seem commensurate with the time spent. Perhaps an incentive would be to provide rewards that are Bind to Account (personally i wish the new Medallions were this way). But imagine if you could earn skirmish marks and tokens that are bound to your account by playing either a Monster or Freep in the PvMP world, via a PvMP skirmish system, playing against other players. Creeps would also need to receive value and progression for these same items, perhaps by bartering for potions, stones, and etc. Creep players could then choose to use the rewards for their creep or for their freep characters. Maybe even a PvMP barter token that can provide similar armor to Hele or Annum over a similar period of time (though these would probably need to be Bind on Acquire).

This might bring more players into the PvMP experience. It would, IMO, just need to be done in such a way that it doesn't choke off the open-world PvMP experience we have today, which I think is worth retaining. I guess that means that open-world PvMP would somehow need to offer similar rewards for the time spent, just as open-world PvE offers benefits commensurate with the skirmish system.

I agree with the different zones for different lvls. It's no fun for a lvl 40 to go out there with their 1500-3k morale, depending on class and setup, against a reaver, mine is r4, with 6800 morale and can kill them in 2 skills.

It is also no fun for a green... sorry... siggy now.... to come out of grams and be stun locked by a burg at the slugs while he is dead in 5 seconds.

I say leave the Moors for lvl 40-55? and let the creeps start out as such too. Creeps gain lvls as they rank then can move to the Isen map at lvl 55-65 and say r5? for creeps. Something like that may work as well.

And everyone needs to remember that it is different on all servers. Windy barely ever gets a full 24 vs 24 so keep that in mind when you are on, let's just say E and don't see how someone on Nimrodel can say it is tough to rank or that zerging is bad.

Thank you for taking the time to look at PvMP. You've got your work cut out for you, but it's nice to know that Turbine is taking an interest in it.

Here are a few things that I, personally, would like to see:

1) Open the Turbine Store for Monster Players. There's a market out there for you.

2) DRASTICALLY reduce the pve content in pvmp zones. We pvp for a reason. At the very least, let us pve without the danger of being ganked.

3) PvMP skirmishes!

4) Give us incentives to keep ranking after the first few ranks. My BA -- my highest-ranked creep -- has been at Rank 5 since Christmas because it was just too much of a grind after that.

5) Incentives for freeps to pvmp. (But for goodness sake, make sure they're properly balanced -- the latest gear, while worthwhile, has shifted the balance WAY too far in the freeps' favour.)

6) PLEASE, PLEASE!!! Compensate BAs for the latest nerf!!!!

7) FIX BUGS. We're tired of putting up with rollbacks and dysfunctional skills.

The warleader bug AND rollbacks have been fixed since the latest patch.

Originally Posted by myfreezr2

1) Open the Turbine Store for Monster Players. There's a market out there for you.

No worries on that this is why they are making changes to PVMP, and what this thread is about. The Lotro store is coming to PVMP this fall and it will offer an alternative progression path through the PVMP system with the purchase of all kinds of different goods.

Here's my idea...

Get rid of Ranks. Convert everything to levels. Level 50-60 for the Ettenmoors. Level 60-70 for the new zone. Vet creep players "Ranks" could be converted to levels, so, as an example, say if a creep player is Rank 12, that means they are level 62 (50+12). If they are Rank 15, then they are level 65 when they start out (just like the PvE players will be).

New creep players will start out in the Ettenmoors at 50 to keep the playing field level and to make sure that there are creeps out there for the 50+ freep players to go up against.

A creep player would have to be Rank 10 (Level 60) or greater to get into the new zone. This will gate the new area so it isn't overrun by a bunch of creeps that are "automatically" leveled to 70, and they won't have to sit around and wait for freeps to get to the same level.

Make the rewards based on level for both sides, like they are in the PvE world. Same goes for skills.

Freep players have the choice of leveling in the PvE world or the PvMP world (or both).

I think this will both satisfy the people who want PvP in the game and, with the Ettenmoors and the new zone being just another optional leveling area, will keep everything within the lore.

The freep pvp armor should not be gotten through delving pve. Pvp armor should be earned just like creeps earn their new skills. The delving really needs to be taken out or turned into an underground keep kind of battle where places can be taken and fought over. The whole idea of delving was badly implemented. Freep pvp armor/rewards should be either bartered for with dp (which would make sense since our kills give us dp along with taking keeps) or tokens of valour. Of course rank requirements would stay the same but pvp armor isnt pvp armor. its pve armor gotten in a pvp zone.

Originally Posted by Elyske

The warleader bug AND rollbacks have been fixed since the latest patch.

All right then. My bad

Welcome to the meat grinder known as "discussion" forums! Good luck to ya lol

Here is the same idea I've been suggesting since day 1 - Collision Detection. Here's a cut/paste from a post I made just a few days before this one popped up:

1) PvMP - Enemy-Only Collision Detection. I love the 'moors, but get tired of orcs running through my torso to chew on my healers. I'm a Guardian, if you want my mini ya gotta get PAST me, not through me. Enemy collision detection would mean that people would have to actually think about where to stand and why instead of the boring and generic zerg ball. Formations would begin to appear, tanks would work together to protect their groups, bottlenecks would be defended. Want to get into TR lobby? Kill me first instead of spreading your atoms out to phase past me, kill the squishies, then coming back to get me last. Isn't that how it's supposed to work? It would benefit both sides immensely, not just Freeps. Make the battles last longer to where tactics and strategies can actually be used instead of speed-flipping TA for the thousandth time in a week.

While there would be a million details that would need to be worked out, the idea is what I present. There could be exemptions - stealthers have a chance to slip by, trait for getting past easier, etc etc, but thats details that can't be figured out until the base problem is solved.

There ya go again for the 312th time lol. Fix the foundation before building castles.

Originally Posted by ArkhonZ

Welcome to the meat grinder known as "discussion" forums! Good luck to ya lol

Here is the same idea I've been suggesting since day 1 - Collision Detection. Here's a cut/paste from a post I made just a few days before this one popped up:

1) PvMP - Enemy-Only Collision Detection. I love the 'moors, but get tired of orcs running through my torso to chew on my healers. I'm a Guardian, if you want my mini ya gotta get PAST me, not through me. Enemy collision detection would mean that people would have to actually think about where to stand and why instead of the boring and generic zerg ball. Formations would begin to appear, tanks would work together to protect their groups, bottlenecks would be defended. Want to get into TR lobby? Kill me first instead of spreading your atoms out to phase past me, kill the squishies, then coming back to get me last. Isn't that how it's supposed to work? It would benefit both sides immensely, not just Freeps. Make the battles last longer to where tactics and strategies can actually be used instead of speed-flipping TA for the thousandth time in a week.

While there would be a million details that would need to be worked out, the idea is what I present. There could be exemptions - stealthers have a chance to slip by, trait for getting past easier, etc etc, but thats details that can't be figured out until the base problem is solved.

There ya go again for the 312th time lol. Fix the foundation before building castles.

This would be pretty dang cool. Have like different formations, archers behind heavies, the bannerguards (cpts and WLs) lead the charge and in front. That would give a whole new aspect of fighting.

As much as I approve of this idea, there's 100% no way to do it

Originally Posted by ArkhonZ

Here is the same idea I've been suggesting since day 1 - Collision Detection. Here's a cut/paste from a post I made just a few days before this one popped up...

I agree with this as well. You can have an entire hall filled with freeps, and all a Reaver has to do is pop "Charge" and run through everyone, avoiding CC's and traps along the way. Same goes for a Spider...they run through, lay down some web, and all of the freeps are stuck, but the spider runs right on by...

Collision detection was a good idea in 2007 or 2008. When Age of Conan showed up, people learnt that collision detection can be abused in a lot of ways. I agree that it is an interesting concept, but it is nothing than can be added to a game engine without opening lots of loopholes and problems.

Originally Posted by DorianFalkenmond

Collision detection was a good idea in 2007 or 2008. When Age of Conan showed up, people learnt that collision detection can be abused in a lot of ways. I agree that it is an interesting concept, but it is nothing than can be added to a game engine without opening lots of loopholes and problems.

Quite the reverse happened in counterstrike CS:Source. For eons the game was a collision only game which mean you could not pass someone who blocked a doorway or other small areas you could however jump over him given he had the space above him to allow it.

Then some time during 2008 an anti collision mod was released to CS:S and I hated it, not only could you move through your opponent you could dance inside of his location and make it very very difficult to track the person. even worse you could charge your enemy and go through them turn around and kill them all from behind before they could react. The implications of no collision detection in a First person shooter were horrible, all of the problems we currently have in this game showed up in cs x2.

I have seen collision detection turned on in mmo's and it's not as bad as you would imagine. All it means is that you can't stand inside of your enemies. Because in most games they would only turn it on for the opposing side, but if you you turned it on for the entire game I would imagine it would cause many issues. One thing i can think of right off the bat is the Instance spawn locations, they is only 1 spawn point. If collision detection was on it would kill whoever got there first.

Also the anti exploit system seems specifically designed to prevent a collision based system if a wall of guardians stood in the way of an npc it would probably just go into exploit mode when it targets the healer behind the wall. In some games they fixed this by allowing the monster to attack the nearest person within range while rooted. So whoever the monster is closest to on the wall he would attack until the player he is interested in is in range.

I like your use of the word "analysis". I think that has been lacking in Turbine's implementation of things (but we don't really know that or what their real goals are, other than profit). Make small adjustments and test. Do this frequently, and don't change too many things at once.

The most important aspects of playing in the moors that I would like to see a change are:

Sportsmanlike behavior: Be kind and welcoming to new players. Don't whine when you die in a PvP zone, even if you got zerged. Expect the enemy to use every technique and skill at their disposal to win, and stay alive. Don't whine or criticize when they do.

Fix the bugs. This is super important. More important than new features. (For instance: It's crazy that the weaver's hatchling runs so much slower and that this wasn't fixed in the patch. This kind of thing drives me nuts.)

Stop treating the creeps like bad orphans. Vaults and mailboxes just like every other character in Lotro.

I don't care if the freeps are more powerful individually than creeps, just so long as you state that as a design goal.

The game would be more fun to me if there were loot/equipment for creeps.

I wish there were a strategic element to zone control. Lots of different ways to affect zones and ways to undermine the enemy's control.

Capturing the relics is fun. Let's have some more games like that to play.


AND MY BIGGEST WISH that would be the MOST FUN: let the creeps out of the moors. Let them run Ivar in session play in his instance. Let them play the Red Reaver (N of Bree) in session play. That would be fun and it would make the game more varied for everyone. (having everything be the same all the time is a big detraction from this game). I would love it if some of the Orcs in Mirkwood were actually players. That would make being there feel more dangerous, suspenseful and infinitely more entertaining.

PvE is boring and the Moors are broken. Please help.


Oh! And Welcome to Turbine and the forums! Hope you enjoy your work!

Originally Posted by Moosildur

Oh! And Welcome to Turbine and the forums! Hope you enjoy your work!

He is not new to lotro-turbine look at his Join Date June 2008

Sorry, second post.

Random events.

A few years ago I was on Creepside on Elendilmir when a GM said in OOC that something interesting was happening on the shores of the Hoardale. The search was on and we found three or four GM's on both Creep and Freep characters near STAB. We interacted with them, tried to kill them (didn't work!) and watched in awe as they did cool tricks like run around at crazy speeds, shoot into the air like a rocket ship leaving a burning patch on the ground and spawn NPC's to fight us.

That was one of the most memorable occasions during my years with LOTRO and just like I'm doing now, I still talk about it.

More please.

sorry my second post.

i only play ba/warlearer/reaver.

Blackarrow is far to weak, they used to be viable because they were tougher then a hunter, that is not the case now.

1. fire dot needs to be on a 10-15 second cooldown. freeps can simply pot out of the dot and the pot cooldown is on a 30 second cooldown. 90%of the time the fire dot id removed before 2 ticks of damage.
2. if you dont want to have the fire dont be the main skill of the ba, increase the damage of all his attacks.
and reduce the cooldown of each attack accordingly.
3. make his traps useable incombat. you seems to have an issue of balance at the very core of your game. log on your creep, and spar your friend on his freep. no dots, and stop at 1/2 moral. see who gets out of combat 1st. major issue with the foundation of pvmp gameplay!!!!

warleader, our tank and main support class.

1. warleader needs a cc skill, either make intimidating shout root, stun, or fear the target.
2. warleader needs more melee attacks, 2 melee attacks and 2 shouts just wont cut it anymore.
3. remove cost over time on the warleader auras.
4. mobilize needs to buff run speed, not only our of combat run-speed(see #3 of ba section)

reaver, our main dps class, the ba has been ousted.
1. more skills at low ranks
2.dev strike 30s cooldown not traited, and 15s traited
3 improved power regen incombat and out
4. charge lasts 12 seconds
5.hamstring does damage along with slowing.

Can we have Arena kind of thing?
Like any freep (or group of them) can mark them as available and enter that Arena and a similar creep (or group of them) who marked themselves can be chosen and they face each other. Do not give control to users for selecting opponents or opponent group; let the game decide it randomnly. This encourages people that solo to see the side of PvMP. I can see the reason for some people not coming for moors because they run solo and always find a group which kills them. Part of them overcame it and started running in groups and some of them just quit.

That is just my opinion; Being a champ, melee and soloing around for most time I find it difficult to find/engage a solo creep. I have had few nice solo fights. But just suggesting to improve that a bit more.

Originally Posted by Kelsan

Greetings,

I wanted to formally introduce myself to the community in the hopes of opening a meaningful dialogue as we continue to enhance and improve Monster Play.

Hey there, I'm glad to hear that, though within the last 2 week pvmp was total bs-ry. But don't worry it is not the whole system that is to blame.

In the foreseeable future, I will be working alongside Orion (yay, wb Orion) on PvMP updates. We feel that your feedback is important, particularly when it is supported by data. (Well i prefer to shovel some clouds..) I know that as players, especially PvPers, we are deeply invested in the game and when things change (or break, as they are prone to do) we feel slighted and want our frustrations to be heard. When commenting on the forums, I encourage you to support your feedback with data with which we can create actionable goals.

Additionally, I thought it might be useful to provide you with a sort of “PvMP Manifesto” that encompasses the high level goals we’re trying to accomplish with our updates. Some of these objectives may be vague, and certainly lack the “hows” and “whens”, but the specifics of these goals will be fleshed out over time.

Revitalization
Improve the underlying systems in ways that enhance the experience of PvMP, providing more reasons for new and existing players to continue to participate in the system.

• Reduce/Remove restrictions that detract from the experience
  • Example: Book 3 revisions to Creep play.

Well some update of this patch aren't that great.. It looked more like "we did changes just to show that we care but doesn't deliver much".

• Reward Structure
  • PvMP exclusive rewards (the rewards are important and a system to get them as well - I suggested a few time a system that work like the skirmish system, though you get the token by killing the other player, not npcs)
  • Enhanced PvMP Advancement (Divide the 15 ranks into 3 tiers of power)
  • Rewards for zone control (hmm i might like the idea, but don't forget to give a push to the underdog side as well)
• Encourage play during off-peak hours (Well if the opponent drop the item needed - instead of npcs - this will solve the encourage play during off-peak hours issue, the people will fight instead at starring at each other...)

I would also add
-Give a way to healer to get some inf/ren from healing because it might be harder as an healer to rank up since the job is mostly healing the meatshield
-Reduce the number of npcs


I'm not suggesting arena (even if i enjoyed some arena-ish game lately) because of the actual balance issue between Aoe vs Range vs Snare vs Stealth vs ...


Balance
The never ending struggle of Creep vs Freep; Fun vs Fair.

• Skill/Rotation audits
  • Purpose, Potency, and Cooldowns
  • Revise existing instead of adding new
• Melee vs Ranged
  • Closing distance without completely negating ranged attackers.

Range : This is the main Issue in my opinion (most classes has ranged attack or ranged options/tools) I would not matter if there would be also a Line of Sight issue but there is. Range breaker has to be done (and/or fixed). There are some open field battle but there is nothing more frustrating to see a homing "arrow" curving to a target where this one cut los with a wall. Also if the current wall/tree would work better people would rely less on stealth...

Stealth : I put Stealth as a second issue (for both side no worry). i hope you'll look into it, most people falsly believe this bring healthy pvp.. The big issue is it is a powerful tools but there is not draw back to it. Then you put heavy ranged fight and you remove reason to people to play other classes then ranged(range) or stealther (melee).

As far as i remember, the reason of pvmp was to balance one side (monster) to prevent to balance the freeps for pve/pvp dilemna. I'm sure you know your job but I would suggest you look into the freep classes to revamp/rework some of the creep classes skills. Also, some skills are just over the top and can be modified for pvp only (like df by example).

And if balance is really and issue and you have problem about it, I strongly suggest to read this thread, its old but got no bad review .. yet ::

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...on.&highlight=

Unification of Purpose
Since launch the reasons for Creeps and Freeps to participate in PvMP have not been aligned. This has lead to differing levels of interest between the factions. Unification of PvMP goals will help build desire and create a sense of purpose.

• Examination of the purpose of Rank for both Creeps and Freeps.

Well I guess i can answer that -> Freeps, Rank = access to better pvp-centric gear. Creep, Rank = power. Some of my thoughts has been scattered around the forum and unfortunatly i can't find them...

• An audit of the reasons/rewards for zone control.

Well, since pvmp is RvR you should look into what Mythic have done, the best pvp is Mythic's way. Attacking the keeps is for special token for the gear (and maybe monster skills and extra infamy/renown). About zone control.. What about something like <freep zone> < contested zone > < Creep zone> When you control middle zone you open the other faction zone where you can fight for zome extra token/quests for your side related stuff (gear/skills/whatever).

To reiterate, the above goals are focal points for discussion and analysis. As we delve into development, formalized plans of action will be created. I will endeavor to more consistently share design ideas with the community throughout the development process so that you can provide input.

I'll look into this. If you read this I stay cloudy cause I hate to give ideas for free.. I know how ideas worth..


-JP

Friday early morning wafflyings..

Originally Posted by Elderban

Here's my idea...

Get rid of Ranks. Convert everything to levels. Level 50-60 for the Ettenmoors. Level 60-70 for the new zone. Vet creep players "Ranks" could be converted to levels, so, as an example, say if a creep player is Rank 12, that means they are level 62 (50+12). If they are Rank 15, then they are level 65 when they start out (just like the PvE players will be).

New creep players will start out in the Ettenmoors at 50 to keep the playing field level and to make sure that there are creeps out there for the 50+ freep players to go up against.

A creep player would have to be Rank 10 (Level 60) or greater to get into the new zone. This will gate the new area so it isn't overrun by a bunch of creeps that are "automatically" leveled to 70, and they won't have to sit around and wait for freeps to get to the same level.

Make the rewards based on level for both sides, like they are in the PvE world. Same goes for skills.

Freep players have the choice of leveling in the PvE world or the PvMP world (or both).

I think this will both satisfy the people who want PvP in the game and, with the Ettenmoors and the new zone being just another optional leveling area, will keep everything within the lore.

Turrible Ideas Juss Plain Turrible Says Sir Charles

I think there are some large scale fundamental issues that need to be addressed and they have already been touched upon in this thread.

For one thing the ranking system is a complete joke. Achieving rank 15 on either freep or creep is the single longest grind in the game and yet the rewards for attaining that rank are at best meagre and at worst down right insulting. By rank 15 a freep will have gained access to a PvP armour set (note they only gain the ability to wear that set, not the set itself, which is a completely separate grind), a title, a cloak designed for level 50 players and two horses. Creeps will have gained a new skill, a new appearance, and a title. All in all a very poor showing chaps.

Indeed once one reaches rank 10 or so the grind to higher levels seems to accelerate at an almost logarithmic pace, which means that despite being two thirds of the way towards rank 15 in terms of the actual number of ranks a rank 10 player is in fact less than a quarter of the way to rank 15 in terms of the overall grind.

So what do we have? A tremendous grind with very little to show for it at the end. Not sounding too peachy is it? Indeed it is not!

What is needed is a much more fluid progression where players don't have to measure the time until their next rank in years and where the reward at each step of the way is genuinely rewarding and something to look forward to. I am not for a moment suggesting the progression be dumbed down, but it does need to flow more smoothly and there does need to be a comensurate reward at the end of it for all the time and gameplay that has been poured into attaining those high ranks.

As a point of reference, seeing as you wanted data, I have played LOTRO since beta and in four years of playing no other creep apart from my warg for an average of around 4-5 days a week, usually just a few hours at a time, I calculated that I would attain rank 15 shortly before my 84th birthday in 2065.

A few idea's and suggestions from Europe here:


Give renown/infamy for healing

The healer will get a percentish of the renown/infamy based on how much he healed his ally, and how much damage his ally did to the enemy. Renown/infamy will only be given after the enemy died.

This will encourage more healing, therefore less ranged damage (minstrel/rk) and melee's will get more support.

Limit raids to max 12 players

This will reduce the zergs.

Remove RAT

When targeted by the RAT, you have no chance for survival. That's no fun.

Make stealth a powerdrain

Both for wargs and burglars (PvMP only). Stealth is extremely powerfull and with no drawbacks, wargs and burglars have no reason to not always be in stealth.

Make it a (small) powerdrain only when moving, when standing still your power will regenerate.

PvMP armour:

- acquired trough PvP'ing (for example, cost: destiny points)
- a full new set for every rank
- set bonuses only active in PvMP (so PvE'ers won't be jealous and the armour will still be useful in PvE, but not the best).

Enable cosmetics in PvMP

I care about how I look.

Specialization for creep classes

For example: Reaver - single target dps, aoe dps or tank. Warleader - healing, buffing or dps/tank. etc.

I think one of the biggest balance flaws with the pvmp was the way each side progressed. Freeps can pve their way to a very powerful character with not too long of a time investment. Creeps, especially the older ones like myself, did not have this option. So clearly creeps need lots of love and incentive to keep taking the beating that they inevitably do early on. I think the starter revamp in the last patch was a step in the right direction. I also think there needs to be a trainer that specifically tells each rank 0 MP character that is created they are a weak maggot and will not be able to take on a Freep by themselves till they are much higher ranks. This will definitely help new creeps out by not feeling so underpowered because they will know that is part of the design of pvmp zone.

Somebody posted to not allow more then 12 man raids and I think part of that is great idea. I think 24 man raids should be allowed for specific hard objectives ie taking a well defended keep, but that infamy/renoun rewards should peak at 12 players (half raid size). Ultimately the best infamy/renoun rewards need to be in the form of 1-6 players. Those fights are more dynamic and create much more involvement from all playstyles and classes. A group of 24 players killing 1 lone freep/creep should never earn more then 6-7 base renoun/infamy.

I think a rank revamp should be implemented on ranks 7-15 for both sides because they are much too grindy for the average player to progress their character.

I am hoping the new pvmp zone is vip only and has an entirely new mechanic instead of ranking. Monster play side, i think it would be really nice if you could create an entirely new character based on your infamy pool, (the entire amount of infamy earned on your account). This way you can leave the current ettenmoors essentially a ftp purchaseable zone and all players could partake in it and those that want to subscribe can play in the new zone and have completely new classes, mechanics and play styles introduced. For examply MP pve content, crafting, skirmishes and epic storlines. Monster player skirmishes and quests that offered a bit of infamy would be a good idea as well, especially quests that involve killing free people characters.

Originally Posted by Understander

Make stealth a powerdrain

Both for wargs and burglars (PvMP only). Stealth is extremely powerfull and with no drawbacks, wargs and burglars have no reason to not always be in stealth.

Make it a (small) powerdrain only when moving, when standing still your power will regenerate.

This ^ I think is a good idea, but not a new idea. It has been implemented in several games in several ways but I think the power drain way is the most effective. It forms a reason for haste in the warg/burgs mind that if they are too slow they may run out of power and be spotted while if they stay positioned they could stay stealthed indefinitely. There is almost no method available to make stealth less then overpowered without completely nerfing it into oblivion, but this particular way of handling it has always been the perfect touch to a big problem.

The truth is "stealth class's" Have an inordinate advantage over every other class just simply because the rules say you should not see them. Yet wargs and burgs can walk around in full daylight, out in the open, and even jump up and down. Without some form of situational awareness built into the game to curb there stealth abilities all your left with is the power drain tether. This makes the wargs and burgs have a limited range on there stealth while moving and forces them to stop(hide) when needed to regain there stealth powers.

First off, Kelsan and Orion, good luck! Hope you have thick skin or if you don't are masochitic at heart cause regarless of what you do I expect that you will take some abuse. As you can already see in the thread, there are two vocal sides to what is percieved as wrong in the moors. Any change that will make some people happy will make others angry. I am sure it sounds discouraging but what ever you decide to do stick to your guns cause I am sure the player pop will adjust and make the best of what you decide to do.

My two cents on what can be changed/added to improve the moors experience will follow in a bit, however I want to comment on some of the other posts and my own overall moors experience. WARNING!! wall o text but I think it's worth the read.

There are is a very vocal minority of epeeners who only care about rating. Take what they say about changes with a grain of salt. These epeeners (not so affectionatly known as star huggers) IMO are the worst issue with the moors. They are the ones abusing the exploits/bugs and is one of the reasons why Zerging exists. I have seen whole raids ignore other players just to try to down one specific person. These same individuals are the ones who also most abuse class imbalances which can make the moors unenjoyable.

Those who hate the zerg have to face facts. Its going to happen when progression is tied to infamy/reknown. Also when numbers are imbalanced alot of fights are concidered a zerg (even if not intended) just cause a large group encounters a smaller group. Creeps need the infamy to rank up and when it can take 100's of thousands of infamy points to rank every little one counts. Given the current map with too many places to run to for perceived safety there are lots of opportunity for the zerg to occur. Do I love or hate the zerg? I am indifferent, its just a fact of life. Besides its easy enough to avoid it. Don't run to EC or OC or into a keep thinking it will keep you safe. Staying mobile is what keeps you safe. The minute you stand still you can expect the other side to find you.

Rez camping also has a negative connotation. IMO there is no such thing. If you get jumped more than once coming out of a rez its your fault. There are lots of directions you can head out of rez and there is nothing that says you should be able to take the most direct route back to the fight safely.

PVE in a PVP zone. Many are calling for the removal of this yet alot of those are asking for instanced PVP or PVMP skirms. If you do it, fine, however, no infamy/reknown should be given out in these. Rank farming will become rampant as there will be nobody to monitor who/what goes in these. Also a fundamental change will have to be made on how players aquire consumables or barter items.

There is currently a number of players on both sides wanting more 1v1 or small group action. Lets be honest, it's because they have a advantage due to high rank or class imbalance that can be abused to make massive amouts of infamy/reknown. They say its cause they want to test themselves, fine. Make it so you can spar creep vs freep in a seperate instance but once again no infamy/reknown should be given out.

So my suggestions would be:
Getting rid of the visible stars was a good step but not far enough. Get rid of the rating system altogether. There is no impact if you die in the moors. Stand and fight, running just means you die tired or you were being selfish and let others die when you could have been helping them.

If you are going to have a zone like the delving in the new area, then make it so you can't log out in there. Current system is being abused on both sides for farming mats and if control flips while you are in there you should be forced out within a certain amount of time.

I am not in favour of one grand arena, so there needs to be real objectives to controlling areas. Either map wide or a timed buff for being in an area when an objective was completed. For example a timed infamy/reknown buff if you were in a keep when it was flipped. Make it significant (say 10%) as well as a map wide incrementing buff for each area controlled (damage buff, infamy buff, etc). Make controlling and taking these worth while objectives instead of just getting a rez point and some dp.

Access to the new area. Freep within 5 lvl's of cap only and a creep can only be there if they have a freep toon within 5 lvls of the cap.

Ensure exploitable areas (where players cannot be attacked) don't exist or if they are found very quickly fixed. Bans for repeat offenders instead of bans for people calling them out.

Damage types for creeps. The majority of creep attacks are common damage. This should change to mirror freeps where for the most part the only common damage is the auto attack. This change alone would go a long way to balancing things.

One good idea has been mentioned that I would like to second and I would suggest is the easiest way to balance things up is corruptions. There is a whole mechanic from the PVE side that isn't utilized in the moors at all. Neither the creeps themselves or the creep NPCs have corruptions. Corruptions can be of any of the regular type. Outgoing damage increase, incoming damage decrease, hots (power or morale), movement speed, etc are all possibilities. Creeps could have the choice of which one they want to use at any given time and of course Freeps could remove them as they do on mobs on PVE side.

New creep experience vs vet accomplishments and rewards. The book 3 update went along way to improving the new creep experience. New creeps have much more survivability and didn't impact the percieved accomplishments of the vets. The next step would be to adjust the rank progression. My idea for this is to promote everyone to their next rank and then use a new infamy/reknown table going forward (keeping the data for the old accumulated infamy/reknown for posterity) which has a siginifantly reduced point requirements. Balancing classes/creeps of higher rank is much easier. Lets be honest, with a couple of months work you can build a fully geared out lvl 65 toon. The amount of effort should be the same to build a very high rank creep. There have been those who have mentioned how hard it is to find groups or that the experienced players always go solo. Well, nothing is going to change that. How did you learn things on the PVE side, probably you asked a bunch of questions in GLFF or you joined a kin? Same thing over on creep side. Bring your kin mates over and work and learn together, new creep players need to unite and work together. If you are new and running solo, expect pain. Like the PVE maps it takes time to learn the safe spots or the danger spots. Also takes time to learn what are worthwhile quests to do and which ones aren't.

Class balance. This will be next to impossible. All classes will match up poorly in some cases and the only way to prevent that is to make all the classes the same (which is not good either). IMO it is better to balance group mechanics than solo. Numbers on each side have an impact as well but since we don't want to see numbers being limited to balance fights we will have to depend on tatics/terrain and ensure the players abilities match up to make fights more even. If the suggestions above (faster rank progression, damage types, corruptions ) are implemented there will be less need for tinkering with existing freep/creep skills. However......

For the most part I feel freeps are ok where they are at either solo or in a group however some skills are OP which I will comment on.
LM - Stun Immunity. This is the single most overpowered skill in the moors with no creep equivalent. A single LM can keep SI on a whole fellowship the whole time thus preventing any sort of effective CC by the creepside ( I play an LM as a main so I know how OP it is). Yes creeps have a brand but that is on a very long CD and is more than likely shorter than an LM SI. Its time to block its use in the moors or put the brand on a drastically shorter CD or only make it so that it only removes an existing CC effect (like the Warleader Snap out of it).

Burg's find footing, ready and able, and safe fall. Safe Fall is the worst as it is allowing Burgs to bug out keeps by running through and jumping out the top (especially important if controlling areas in the new zone has value). Yes creeps do this too but not without the broken legs preventing a safe getaway. Find footing and ready and able just don't have a creep equivalent. Give the wargs something similar so they can be just as effective as burgs and just prevent safe fall from working in the moors.

Cappy in harms way/last stand combo is an overpowered damage sponge that has no equivalent on the creepside. To make it fair it should be broken with a stun ( or break just with an FM) to the cappy who has it running (just like a stun will break a guards shield wall or pledge).

Champ's continous blood rage. Not as much an issue in large group vs group, however in a small group the immunity to stuns, slows, and high resistances make for a bit of an unfair advantage. Some would say the reaver charge is like this however I would disagree. It's not usable in combat and doesn't have the resist bonus. I have no issue if in the moors the champ sprint works like the reaver charge.

Guard/Wardens are a big damage sponges and should be hard to kill (which they are). However it is probably too hard given most creep skills are common damage (see above about creep damage types) and the their common mits are the highest. So I wouldn't change anything there however to give guards/wardens more utility in the moors, our force taunts need to have some effect on creeps. My suggestion would be that creeps subjected to a force taunt have their target switched to the guard forcing the creep to reaquire their original target. It shouldn't force the creep to keep targeting the guard.

Minny, lyric of the hammerhand should have a timer in the moors (like the Warleader bubble) but reduce the CD. It would take over 15K worth of damage to kill a minny with hammerhand on even if they didn't use pots or heals. Between Anthem of the Wizards and Hammerhand it is just about impossible to kill a minny 1v1. And if they are in a group with an LM

Hunter while at a disadvanage 1v1 are fine where they are at in groups but even there they can hold their own if played right and can start at ranged. Improve up close abilities and it overpowers them in groups. Leave them alone

RK is the tough class to deal with. While very squishy, they have vastly superior firepower on the move coupled with slows to used to kite. Very effective one on one and in groups. Given sufficent protection with people around them they are deadly. Not sure there is anything that you could change for moors play to balance them. Get a couple of creeps in their face and normally they are a dead stone carver in a hurry so I guess I wouldn't touch them.

So its not assumed I am pro creep and anti freep I will comment on creep classes and why I think they need to be buffed or left alone but not nerfed. Besides any frequent player in the moors knows that until a creep gets to R5 at least they can't compete with any freep class.

Warleader
-Big group heal at rank 9 is fine as it is. Freeps have a ton more healing potential than creeps and any nerf to creep healing will be detrimental to balance.
-Combat Rez. Yes its aoe and on a fairly short CD but it is the creep sides only incombat Rez. Is more than balanced by the minny/cappy rezs. Not counting the RK one as it has to be planned in advance and can easily be wasted.
-Banners, these should be placeable in combat like the cappy ones and with no CD.

Defiler (the creep version of the healing RK)
Yes the hots can be OP in a 1v1 but our DPS stinks and power is a very signficant limiting factor. Defilers shouldn't be touched execpt to give them an incombat similar to the RK one where it has to be planned in advance and to allow them to contribute to CJ's from Range (huge oversite IMO when they changed it for Minnies and LM's)

Weaver
Well besides fixing the issues with the last changes (cursed baby) a well ranked spider is one of our strongest most balanced classes. A R6 spider can fair quite well in a 1v1 with most classes (except an LM with SI or a champ with CBR).

Reaver
Our lovable cannon fodder who at low ranks is horribly inferior to any freep. I think they need some sort of ranged attack (hell guards, champs have bows and wardens javelin)at a lower rank to give them some sort of chance against kiting classes. At higher ranks they become beasts but still not OP. Have seen many a R9+ reaver fall to RK's, Minnies and LM's.

Warg
Other than balancing them against the burglar skills (need some sort of ready and able or find footing equivalent) are good where they are and can be very effective in a group once they hit R4.

Lastly the Poor old BA. Probably needs to be modled closer to the Hunter. Woefully inadequate against any melee class and most ranged classes with the exception of the hunter. The only recourse for a BA if a melee class gets in their face is to hope to stun or slow and run away. Even the evade skill isn't that great cause one stun and you are done. Closely modling the hunter melee skills would go a long way to balancing this class. However there is one BA skill that is way OP... The stealth detection is nuts. I wish a burg good luck trying to sneak into the back of a creep raid where the defilers are if there are some BA's around.

Well, if you made it this far, thanks for reading. Just my own 2 cents (well maybe more than that). Let me know what you think.

Originally Posted by aad0italian

The moors will never achieve "balance." As long as someone dies, there is always something to complain about. Are there certain aspects of both sides that need tweaking? Of course, but even if it is tweaked to perfection*, someone will always have something to say about it.

Every update this game has there is something that will piss others off.

*as if

and you can never achieve infinity in mathematics, but it is still a useful concept.

I want to bring up some points that others have not touched upon.

Before I Tried Monster Play
Before I tried monster play, I thought what a great idea being able to play a monster. I thought playing from a monster's perspective would completely different than your typical hobbit, dwarf, elf, or human experience. I anticipated really cool monster skills, great new settings, monster lore, and new and unique interactions with other monsters. The fact that you can do everything from a monster's perspective brings so much potential in terms of new and fresh ways of doing things.

After Trying Monster Play
Boy was I disappointed, when I tried monster play. There was nothing different at all - it was just like playing any other character - but in a monster facade. All the NPCs had the same basic roles, the setting was like any other, the interactions were all the same, no interesting lore, same quest grinding, ho hum skills, and on and on. Everything was pretty much like playing any other character. I didn't feel like I was a monster at all. The skills especially did not feel any different than my normal character. What I really wanted was to feel like a monster, and have a new experience from the monster perspective.

Recommendation
Put some monster in monster play. Make it a totally different experience than your normal character. Make is so cool, new, and fun that everyone will want to play a monster for the unique experience. Create new skills that really make you feel like a monster. You have an open canvas to create something truly unique from a monster's perspective. Don't settle to do everything exactly the same as with a freep character.

OTHER THOUGHTS:

Levels
In other games, PvP starts as early as level 10. I don't see why we have to wait basically until level 65 in order to engage in PvP.

Games
Other games have different PvP match types such as capture the flag, capture resources, keep and hold a resource, defeat the general, etc. It would be nice to have more of these types of matches in PvMP.

8 pages and only a 2 blue names and the OP only once at the intro. Tap tap tap...is this thing on?

Originally Posted by NYSEguy1970

8 pages and only a 2 blue names and the OP only once at the intro. Tap tap tap...is this thing on?

Aye, I too was hoping for more Blue name input I miss the days of the lord of the rings forums back when the developers actually "Chatted" with the people about topics. Now days there so tight lipped, afraid to give away big secrets. Plus it would be very helpful if the devs would just say no when we go off on a tangent about a topic that has no chance of ever making it into the game. It would save time, however i am sure they could say it much more tactfully then just no.

Yes hearing some more from a blue name, even if it were just to say a particular avenue of thought was a complete no go, would be beneficial. I'm rather hoping we get one of those feedback threads they sometimes put up for us to provide direct input on the PvMP situation.

WARG'S PERSPECTIVE

I'd like to start off by agreeing with the OP about the problem with ranged vs. melee.

The advantages of range are many:
1: Mulitple Ranged classes can target a single opponent instantly, often without even moving.
2: Ranged classes can keep attacking the target with no need to retarget, often without moving.
3: Ranged classes can attack/goldtag from the relative safety of NPCs or from unreachable locations.
4: Ranged classes have less threat perception. (Shall I attack the melee in the middle of our raid or the ranged class standing in NPCs on the hill? Hmm...)

There isn't a problem with ranged classes having advantages, after all, warg stealth is an advantage. The problem comes in when ranged is closed - supposedly, the closing of range (a hazzardous affair) should put the ranged class into the melee class' wheelhouse but thanks to stuns (some AoE), spammable slows, roots and so forth - all with on the move nukes - the ranged classes are far from vulnerable in the event range is closed.

While the melee class is utterly helpless from range the ranged classes are far from helpless when ranged is closed.
Again, at range the melee classes have NOTHING in the way of attacks but when range is closed the ranged classes have plenty of options to re-establish range and essentially gray bar a melee class. As a melee class I'm always slowed, stunned, rooted and so forth - that stuff is spammable.

That all said, I don't think a warg is helpless.
I think the developers should keep monster classes in distinct roles and if the warg is a melee fighter (harrassment, not tank) we need some very minor tweaks.

SMALL CHANGES
1: Increase Base Stealth
I know people will howl at this but the fact is a warg cannot harm you while stealthed. Period. I want increased base stealth so that I can get to the hunter pew pewing from the 3rd floor of a keep. Too often I end up playing with hypersensitive NPCs when I could be having an encounter with another player. Again, I won't be able to attack him without NPCs joining in but at least let me get to him. That address the range issue withou a very minor tweak.

Also this will impact all the new +stealth dectection gear. Why that is considered a good idea is beyond me. The creeps have 1 stealth class (compared to several freep stealthers and Share the Fun). I'm getting spotted from 20 meters out - seriously, in the ranged vs. melee conversation is ranged stealth detection the right answer? Clearly not. The Warg has one strong point and that is stealth. I want it back.

2: Increased Stealth Detection
At rank 10 the +4 to Stealth Detection/-4 to Stealth should be modified to be +4 to Stealth Detection/+2 to Stealth. The only real impact is to again allow Wargs to be the Lords of Stealth while allowing us to find burglars. The consensus is that Burglars > Wargs (Burglars have more stuns, escapes, heals, etc) so why on earth the recent changes would make Burglars the stelath gods is beyond me. Again, undo the +stealth detection nonsense through this buff - if I find a burglar he has plenty of options for escape, so let me fight 'em already.

3: Increase Power Drain
Power drain against the main problem (ranged tactical nukers) is meaningless. Ironically enough, power drain works best against other melee classes. (D'oh) The problem is two fold: Ranged tactical have lots of power and the drain is too slow AND they kill so fast that a DoT isn't a factor. This could be fixed in any one of several ways:

a. Make power drain stackable.
OR
b. Make it do an initlal 500 with a longer and better power bleed.
OR
c. Make it a leeching skill
OR
d. Make it so that it can be applied from range without breaking stealth (like burglars Reveal Weakness)

Hand out heavy armor that helps the Freep melee classes with power management so they don't get owned by this while allowing the Rune Keepers, Lore Masters and Minstrels to suffer a bit.

CONCLUSION
I think the melee vs. ranged tactical nukers balance is grossly in favor of the ranged tactical nuker. That said, I've not asked for ranged skills, more DPS, or even additional escapes. I've asked for increased stealth so I can close range in the first place and I've asked that we have a single meaningful power debuff when dealing with the ranged nukers. All the nukes, stuns, slows, and roots are still in place and all the kiting is still possible. I'm just asking for warg skills that allow me to do my job - harrassing the Freeps.

well i was wondering, in the rise of isengard how about making a NEW class for the MP like undead (wights barrow undeads) so if you can try make a new class, like that then please so (if you want)