Thread: Introductions and Design Intent

Greetings,

I wanted to formally introduce myself to the community in the hopes of opening a meaningful dialogue as we continue to enhance and improve Monster Play.

In the foreseeable future, I will be working alongside Orion on PvMP updates. We feel that your feedback is important, particularly when it is supported by data. I know that as players, especially PvPers, we are deeply invested in the game and when things change (or break, as they are prone to do) we feel slighted and want our frustrations to be heard. When commenting on the forums, I encourage you to support your feedback with data with which we can create actionable goals.

Additionally, I thought it might be useful to provide you with a sort of “PvMP Manifesto” that encompasses the high level goals we’re trying to accomplish with our updates. Some of these objectives may be vague, and certainly lack the “hows” and “whens”, but the specifics of these goals will be fleshed out over time.

Revitalization
Improve the underlying systems in ways that enhance the experience of PvMP, providing more reasons for new and existing players to continue to participate in the system.

• Reduce/Remove restrictions that detract from the experience
  • Example: Book 3 revisions to Creep play.
• Reward Structure
  • PvMP exclusive rewards
  • Enhanced PvMP Advancement
  • Rewards for zone control
• Encourage play during off-peak hours

Balance
The never ending struggle of Creep vs Freep; Fun vs Fair.

• Skill/Rotation audits
  • Purpose, Potency, and Cooldowns
  • Revise existing instead of adding new
• Melee vs Ranged
  • Closing distance without completely negating ranged attackers.

Unification of Purpose
Since launch the reasons for Creeps and Freeps to participate in PvMP have not been aligned. This has lead to differing levels of interest between the factions. Unification of PvMP goals will help build desire and create a sense of purpose.

• Examination of the purpose of Rank for both Creeps and Freeps.
• An audit of the reasons/rewards for zone control.

To reiterate, the above goals are focal points for discussion and analysis. As we delve into development, formalized plans of action will be created. I will endeavor to more consistently share design ideas with the community throughout the development process so that you can provide input.


-JP

The moors will never achieve "balance." As long as someone dies, there is always something to complain about. Are there certain aspects of both sides that need tweaking? Of course, but even if it is tweaked to perfection*, someone will always have something to say about it.

Every update this game has there is something that will piss others off.

*as if

Originally Posted by Dinara

Do you work for Turbine?
The reason I ask is because you don't have the usual "Blue" name and this seems to be your first post.

His forum account hiccuped. He should be correctly showing as a Turbine employee now and all of Kelsan's posts should show up in the dev tracker from here on out.

There you go, now it looks more official.

Welcome Kelsan, just seeing that someone is paying attention goes a long way to improve attitudes. Best of luck!

Looks blue to me. Nice to see some direction and attention being given to pvmp.

Please just keep in mind that buffing creeps is much more viable for balancing than nerfing freeps.

And if anything is done related to maps for creeps, please don't screw those who put in the effort to collect all their maps.

This is outstanding news! Welcome to the team. As you can see I invest a huge amount of time in PvMP myself, but I have become a realist. I think what needs to be added to your goals is a caveat, an overarching statement that lets players know that the game truly revolves around PvE and that changes to PvMP need to be done in such a way that PvE is never affected.

Help players understand that most changes to PvMP will always be reactionary-based on what has been changing in PvE. For example, the last update included new 1st age weapons, a bit more jewelry that helps players max even more stats - so changes to PvMP should allow for creep buffing, maybe more skills, etc. Balance will always be key but each of us as players needs to realize that this is a PvE game first, and that we can't expect change overnight.

Okay, that said... I will suggest this: Would love to see the warg class changed to a Goblin (all skills remain the same) and the warg now becomes a mount that Monster Players can get at a higher level (or something to that effect).

Welcome, and I look forward to all the future updates you guys have planned for us... PvMP needs some sort of update, especially those that are strictly content, such as a new zone or game play mechanic like a capture the flag game or king of the hill game.

I hope you're ready for the job though... as someone mentioned above, some players will always cry and there will always be complaints.

One thing that i have always wanted to see is Freep Skills that are attained through Rank that are only usable in pvmp land.

I always liked the idea of creeps getting skills for ranking, but i was very sad that freeps would get nothing from ranking.

The pvmp armor set is a step in the right direction as the set bonus gives some interesting effects for pvmp players. However I would like turbine to take it further and make skills that are restricted to monster play that are also based on rank.

I think this would encourage many free players to have fun in the moors.

A few example ideas for consideration.

Perhaps a modification to the Captain war banner, when the captain reaches the rank of 10 he realizes that war is more harsh then any imagined and made for himself a new war banner with improved functionality more apropriate for moors combat. This could be a crafted item only usable in the moors.

For lore masters perhaps they could get a new pet that can only be summoned in the moors, or an extra melee attack thats only usable in the moors.

I think for creep side it would be fun for them to have a new class type they are certainly due for it.

Also would it be hard to make some "race" instances where the freeps can form a group and the creeps can form a group racing through the content to the boss battle, if the creeps get there first they get the first shot at killing the boss and if they fail the freeps get to go next because they would be sitting outside the boss arena watching. If they got there at the same time they would have to fight for it.

The concept of "PvP" scares some (most?) people because of its unfortunate connotations from previous games.

To get me into the Moors, I would need to know about some sort of rewards that I could take back into PvE. I know there's an armor set, but its bonuses are most worthwhile in PvMP situations. As it stands right now, everyone in my server says it's impossible to go out there until you hit 65, that you need to be perfectly equipped, and that if you don't know what you're doing, you hinder all of the Free People. That doesn't seem like a very healthy aspect of a game to me, but maybe that's what you have in mind.

Just adding my input from my point-of-view.

Thank you for listening,

Request 1
Please adjust monster play via the monsters. Don't touch freeps which will always have pve implications. If adjustments need to be made, make them on creepside

Request 2
Make the new Isengard pvp zone a completely new onramp to pvp. We're not in Angmar any more. It's time to prove ourselves to our new masters in Orthanc. Create a separate ranking system, with new ranks, new skills, new rewards for Isengard. Let everyone keep what they earned in Angmar's service, but lets have a new onramp so we can get some new blood interested in pvp. I'm tired of kinmates saying... whats the point, I'll never catch up, and passing on joining my moors fun.

Thank you and good luck!

#1 reason I quit playing LOTRO:

Originally Posted by Kelsan

Melee vs Ranged

• Closing distance without completely negating ranged attackers.

#2 reason I quit playing LOTRO:

Originally Posted by Kelsan

the purpose of Rank for both Creeps and Freeps.

Exciting stuff, Kelsan.

Here are a couple additional things I hope you consider while doing the revamp.
1- Find ways to encourage more solo/small group play.
2 - Eliminate the need to PVE in the Moors for PVP gear.

Ever thought about adding instanced PvP? Conquest, Deathmatch, Capture the [insert random LOTR lore item here], 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc.???

These types of play styles may not be as "original" as the Moors is, but they are certainly tried and true by many of the most successful titles in the gaming industry.

Welcome to the team!

I, for one, appreciate the fact that someone is going to have an open ear towards PvMP in general going forward in addition to Orion. It's a big job but one I hope bears fruit for all those involved. Currently, the zone is very stagnant after four years. Some much needed attention is very much welcomed and appreciated.

I have no requests, save one. Please disregard the poster that says we should start all over. No thanks. For once, it would be nice to see a game that actually rewards it's long time players instead of giving them the shaft, ie SWG. I just hope that game is Lotro.

/Cheers!

If only i can find a way to buy VIP at a store, because i cant pay online.. then ill know what this is talking about

Originally Posted by Kelsan

• Reduce/Remove restrictions that detract from the experience

How about reducing the "time limit" that one can jump on one's creep after playing freepside? I get that it's probably there so people won't jump back and forth at will, but when I get on my freep at, say 8pm, it's depressing to think I won't be able to hop creepside later that night. I think 30 or even 15 minutes would serve the purpose of preventing "jumpers," at least taking them out of action long enough for the fight to potentially switch in the other direction.

Originally Posted by GEARS1980

Request 1
Please adjust monster play via the monsters. Don't touch freeps which will always have pve implications. If adjustments need to be made, make them on creepside

I agree with this proposed approach. Freeps need progression. That's what drives MMO's. Disabling skills or holding back that progression is not the best approach in the long term. I'm fully in favor of giving freeps reasons to PvMP, including gear.

But that also means creep side needs to be buffed fairly frequently to keep up. The original vision of vast hordes of creeps versus a smaller number of freeps has not come to pass, and freeps have more group synergy than creeps do. So the creeps need to be kept competitive, both individually and, especially, in groups. Infamy needs to mildly reward, not punish, grouping, in order to maintain some balance. Higher-rank creeps need progression, too, which often seems forgotten.

There will always be imbalances (unless you remove PvE freep characters from PvMP and just let players session play PvMP-only freep characters with fixed skills and progressions that rank with Renown, just as Monster characters progress via Infamy). I think few players expect perfect balance, especially when numbers on each side are rarely equivalent. But actively reviewing and striving for balance, at least when numbers are roughly equal, means a lot to players.

Originally Posted by Domineaux

Please just keep in mind that buffing creeps is much more viable for balancing than nerfing freeps..

This ^^^

and this too...

Originally Posted by Yosoff

1- Find ways to encourage more solo/small group play.
2 - Eliminate the need to PVE in the Moors for PVP gear.

Welcome and best of luck!

For the record (if it was even me that the previous poster was referring to), I was not suggesting you guys just drop the moors and start all over on a new PvP system. Personally, I like the moors very much. I think it's a unique and fun concept and it should definitely remain in this game and continue to evolve.

What I was suggesting, is to create some new additions to the game that adds a little variety to the PVP play-style. Lets face it... the moors is just not going to be everyone's cup of tea. It's time to start thinking outside the box and create some new content that is geared to please the masses.

Welcome and I hope you have a thick skin... PVP is a very touchy topic.

I am not an expert on PVP or 1v1 or anything else but I do like to play on the Moors. Here are some observations - ymmv.

1. A L40 Freep is gonna be slugmash on the moors
2. A L65 Freep who has never been out there is gonna be slugmash on the moors
3. A L65 Creep who has never been creepside is gonna be freepfood on the moors
4. Groups Creep/Freep are hard to come by if you are a noob
5. Language (offensive and derogatory) is common and not all that appropriate for <L18 (audio channel or ventrilo systems)
6. DualBoxing, Spying, Switching Sides, all common, all acceptable and very annoying. Hard to show up at a keep with out the otherside waiting for you.
7. Rez Circle Ghanking common, we all do it and we all hate it.
8. Freep Insignias cannot be used mounted and are useless in combat. (OOC only to activate)
9. Freep Moors gear useless in general.
10. Creep skills traits etc not easy to understand or get.
11. Delving Stones cannot be had solo. (same with Freep side).
12. ZergFest is really unpleasant and causes mass logouts (eg Creep EC Zerg is most common on Nimrodel but we can Freep Zerg OC too)

I could probably come up with some more annoyances... but you'll hear more I'm sure.

Originally Posted by Irin19

Okay, that said... I will suggest this: Would love to see the warg class changed to a Goblin (all skills remain the same) and the warg now becomes a mount that Monster Players can get at a higher level (or something to that effect).

I think that if they did this, they would have every warg-turned-goblin on their tail. THE number one reason I started PvMP was to play a warg. Not a stealth class. I didn't care that it was a stealth class...it's a freakin' warg! We are by far the coolest (or tied with the spider) class out there!

That being said, there is a need for mounts, the warg speed bonuses could be drastically increased but kick off in combat, and the other classes could ride wolves. Just a suggestion.

But I will tell you, kind Kelsan, what the number one thing is that turns people off in the moors. When you are a new creep, and you would like to rank up, but you keep getting zerged. Raid v 1 is very unfortunate and can cause people to put away Monster Play and never do it again. May I suggest an adaptation of Skirmishes, almost a controlled duel, if you will. Solo, duo, 3-man, 6-man, raid. It would allow a great deal more flexibility. I would jump on the chance with all of my characters to do the solo versions. I want to try my skill 1v1 with creeps with all my 65s, and on freeps with my warg. Make it a really, really good way to earn skirmish marks. People will want to do it on their freeps that way.

A big problem with the current system in the Moors is that you reward people for PvE in the moors. When the update went live, and for that matter the three weeks preceding it, the freeps were only farming Tyrants. Nothing else. I couldn't get them to fight me on my warg. Very disappointing. They were required to PvE for the PvP rewards. A very flawed system.

Make deeds for player kills required for armor and items. Forget loot, you have started moving away from that anyway. Everything gated by deeds on freepside lends an extra excitement on what deed may be unlocked next. Think about it. If you had 180 kills for that tier and you got your gloves at 200, you would want to go out and kill 20 creeps (or maybe *gasp* do a few 1v1 skirmishes). Not go grind another Tyrant. That is PvP! These would be great if they were additional to the current deeds (the ones for the titles).

Just a few thoughts on the serious problems and a couple of suggestions on how to fix them.

Namárië,
Geldarion

Welcome! That is exciting to hear and I don't kid myself in thinking you guys have an easy task ahead of you.

I am curious in terms of balance, do you mean balance with equal numbers? Because I have seen it repeated many times on these forums that creeps are supposed to be weaker because they have more numbers. So will you be striving for "real" (whatever that might be, probably unattainable) balance or do you count on a number advantage?

Balancing 1v1s is pretty much impossible, of course. But group and raid balance is something worth going for, and definitely not what we have now.

I might have creep goggles on (disclaiming that freely), but currently the scales are tipped just a tad too far towards freep side. (In damage output, healing output, CC and class interaction).

Creeps need more tools to play around with. Equipping, traiting and even playing a creep is boring and simplistic compared to freeps.

One example: while I understand Turbine's decision to change the fire dot for BA's because it made the class very one-dimensional, they didn't give them anything in return. It left BA's to be an even lamer version of a ranged class compared to hunters. It's not even funny when you compare the skill-set of these two classes.

I echo requests for real rewards for ranking up. Mainly for freeps, but also for creeps. A lot of creeps just re-roll a different class after rank 6,7 or 8 because it just doesn't seem to be worth the effort chasing higher ranks. I know my warg has been stuck at 8 for over a year now. Rank 9 just doesn't seem very exciting.

I do like the open PvP area that LotRO provides, I also would like a system for controlled 2v2, 3v3 or 6v6 fights. But that might not be possible without severely hurting the original (and pretty unique) PvP in this game. Also, balance would be even more important and is just hard to do with 2 factions sporting different classes. So I'd say stick to what you have with this open PvP and improve on it (a lot).

Grinding PvE content in PvP land to get gear is lame. I think you know that. So while there might have to be some PvE content to get PvP rolling, rewards for PvP should come from PvPing in my opinion.

I am curious what you guys will come up with regarding encouragement of off-peak action.

Good luck with this undertaking, and please keep us involved if you can stand it. In the sea of the usual forum chatter, there are a lot of people here who can provide great input.

Welcome to the forums, new lightning rod for player wishes and complaints!

I dont really PvMP so this isnt meant to be totally serious, but Ive played a lot of WoWarcraft and WarhammerO(still my favorite PvP MMO).

It would be kinda cool to take some of the current Skirmishes and allow Creeps to run them, like instead of Freeps defending the Prancing Pony from some waves of AI let it be defended against a team of attacking Creeps(equal teams). Or have PvE versions of them for Creeps to run(reverse skirmishes lol).

But dont take that idea too seriously! It would greatly decrease the attraction of the large PvMP areas like the Moors, and would only really be effective if its cross-server. Just throwin it out there.

Edit: I totally didnt read Rewrando5's post. But Im in agreement :P

Possibly make the Moors multi-server altogether? Most people playing Creeps on Arkenstone for example seem to have their Freeps on other servers anyway, so when they come trolling in GLFF the feeling of friendly competition against fellows on your server just isnt there.

Originally Posted by Tarrnation

Ever thought about adding instanced PvP? Conquest, Deathmatch, Capture the [insert random LOTR lore item here], 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc.???

These types of play styles may not be as "original" as the Moors is, but they are certainly tried and true by many of the most successful titles in the gaming industry.

I said it before, and I'll say it again...PvMP Skirmishes. Well, not exactly, but similar. We have all of these PvE instance spaces for different things, wether it be repeatable skirmishes or instances, or worse, one time instances that a player never sees again. Rip out the NPCs, and let us go 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc...as suggested above. Add leader boards so that kins and tribes can show their ePeen. Set up some sort of PvMP Skirmish join system where you can join a random group (Pug), have freep fellowship go against a random creep fellow, and a scheduling system so a specific group of freeps can go up agains a specific group of creeps.


I also like the idea put out that there needs some sort of PvMP Freep skills for Rank.

I'll throw some of my thoughts into the mix - may they be "eaten" or discarded as you see fit. I also wish to say that I'm not out to offend or come across as rude in my post, but I do realize that my lack of understanding and experience with various classes of freep/creep may cause some of my "perceptions" to come across presented as facts. This is not meant to be the case, but as such, my biases will most certainly effect the outcome of the language of my post.

BTW I love to write, so my apologies if this rambles on...

1. At the end of the day, PvMP should be fun. I have seen and heard enough ppl chat in this game to know that there are a number of servers out there whose PvMP zone is lacking inhabitants for large portions of the day, or for large periods of time. It's also my understanding that much of this might stem from a perception that PvMP is not fun "anymore". We're here, investing our lives in a game - it should be entertaining and fun, and something that we come away from happy to have spent our time there. I totally understand that LOTRO is not for everyone, and also realize PvMP is not for everyone either - but its sad to see high ranked fr/cr leaving for other servers, or leaving the game because they no longer find it fun. I also know that we all need to understand the difference between temporary frustration (eg. I died because I was stupid, or someone else was better than me, or I didn't make rank X when I wanted to), and long-term frustration (eg. how exploits are negatively affecting PvMP, or how tasks/goals become mundane, or how NPCs become hindering shields or delayers of battles because of how they are used or hidden in, or how inexperienced players are just farmed with no repercussions, etc.). The process we go through now in this "Design Intent" should be focused on putting the FUN back into PvMP (imho).

2. Fair vs. Intent & Tactics - I'm going to go hard nosed on this one a bit, and say one of those statements that I'll likely regret later. LOTRO PVE has been designed (primarily) as a solo battle of one "hero" against many mobs. Freeps are intentionally able to buff/build/level/max their stats because for the majority of the mainstream part of LOTRO we're having to take on multiple enemy mobs while running solo. I believe that PvMP is likely to play out no differently. Single creeps should NOT expect to go 1v1 against a freep. Creep power comes from NUMBERS (eg. Sauron sending tens of thousands against Helms Deep's hundreds of defenders). The challenge I see out in PvMP play, is either single creeps complaining they're not tough enough to solo, or fully maxed out L65 freeps who get pwned by single creeps that are clearly overpowered from what I feel is "designed intent" of LOTRO at large. Again, imho, I feel if you are a creep below rank 7 (half way thru the max 15 levels), it should be nearly impossible for you to solo a L65 player (unless they're froob fitted in some pitiful manner). Rank 7+ creeps should gain powers and abilities that slowly allow them to stand on their own against the best freeps. A max level creep should be able to stand toe-to-toe against any class of L65 freep (read as "max XP level") in ANY stat/equipment mix, and have a 50/50 chance at beating them. I don't believe we should be designing PvMP to encourage "solo" activities by creeps. It's "MULTI PLAYER" - and the more you buff creeps to be able to solo, the less likely you're going to get creeps working together in NUMBERS against freeps. (Again, I know - lots of generalities but I hope to clarify more below).

3. Froobs vs. Veterans - Two Areas. I've seen this swing both ways - freeps being farmed at GV that are L40-55; and greenie creeps walking out of Grams for their first real quests. I've heard lots of chatter and griping on this one from both sides - level 40 froobs that think "they belong in PvMP because the gate is open" who then complain at getting ganked 20 feet off the GV stairs; to green creeps that log on once, get pwned by a raid of veteran freeps camping Grams, and decide never to log into monster play again. It's a problem - this needs to be fixed, and the likelyhood of closing PvMP to L60+ only is slim to none. So instead, with the launch of Isengard, I recommend a new PvMP area be opened for freeps of level 60+, *OR* freeps who have earned Rank 5.

Leave the Moors to be for L40-60 freeps and Rank 6 and lower (F2P is fine by me here). Enforce it at the front gate of GV, so that a freep that is Rank 5 or Level 60 gets a "warning/invitation" that they should report to the commander of the "new" PvMP area. When that freep hits L65 *OR* Rank 7 - have GV closed to them permanently - have it port them to the "new" PvMP area instead. They can always rank up another alt if they love the Moors, but part of the problem I see out there is the significant skill/experience differences in the zone that just end up being farming opportunities. The same thing should occur on creepside. Rank 5 creeps start to get the "invitation" and a Rank 7 creep is locked out of the Moors too. (I'm picking Rank 5 because I don't want it to be something that takes "months" for enough players to get to).

Make the "New" PvMP area be for L60+ freeps and Rank 5+ freeps/creeps (and VIP only?). Don't get me started on what this area should be like - but it had better be WAY different in design, look & feel, tactics, size, goals/keeps/etc. so as to be a huge draw for VIP and high-ranked freeps/creeps. Make it be a place we WANT to end up - a reason to level through the Moors - a reward for getting to the higher ranks. It should NOT be the same-old-same-old as the Moors (even after being re-engineered better). It needs to have it's own flavour, feel, character... Rohan maybe? Isengard? I leave that to the Tolkien experts to debate.

4. Fix "exploits" but design scenery with strategic intent for both sides. One of my most annoying issues with the current Moors is the number of scenery-designed (whether intentional or not) exploits that ruin gameplay and cause lots of QQ and pouty-pouty. No castle designer or outpost designer would EVER think of creating something right outside their front door that makes it possible for the enemy to hide out of line-of-sight from the battlements/platforms (eg. the stupid rocks around EC; banner/flag poles outside keep entrances, the upper TA room wall glitch, etc.). A keep/outpost is ALWAYS designed as a defensive position that has clear sight lines in all directions - at least in its immediate vicinity of the front door.

For any areas immediately around entrances of outposts and keeps (both outer and inner entrances), scenery vertical surfaces should be "flat and seamless" (eg. allow no "hiding" within glitched cracks and poorly constructed object boundaries). I'm all game for the addition of "barricades" or rocks or debris scattered about the 30-200 meter area surrounding entrances that assist in the assaulting side's "cover", but not ridiculous ones that exist in some places today. Again, imho, assaulting an outpost or keep should be dangerous and deadly - if you don't bring numbers, you're going to die horribly - it's the whole point an outpost or keep is designed, to withstand a larger attacking force.

5. Be intentional with your "climbable/reachable" scenery locations. If a rock or tree or ledge or fallen tree is able to be jumped onto, then intentionally design it to be that way, and be open about it. There are TONS of existing and (imho) legitimate vantage points built into the scenery of the Moors that both creeps and freeps QQ about when they're used (eg. the bridge pillars, the upper walls at TR/Lugz, etc.).

Scenery SHOULD be interactive - but as I mentioned in #4 above, certain entrances and "tyrant rooms" should be free from anything preventing line-of-sight for either defenders or attackers. Additionally, every intentionally built "vantage point" must be physically reachable by both creeps and freeps of all classes WITHOUT mounts, so as to allow for even those vantage points to be challenged by melee classes (eg. there might be an awesome spot to stand and rain down arrows from, but you gotta be watching your back because the enemy can still climb up and reach you there).

6. Increase the number of NPC "assistors" like Goldie and the Tyrant. I think that every major "landmark" that can be taken (eg. bridges, outposts, keeps, future "capture" points), should have an NPC quest nearby that allows the attacking side to "get NPC help" to make a serious run at overtaking every capturable or defensible position. I would also encourage some of these to NOT just be based on the current "tokens" - mix it up a bit, maybe a Darkwolf NPC to assist capturing EC demands 10 Norbog hides to feed his pack while he's away.

Having this sort of NPC assistance more readily available, would (hopefully) reduce the amount of time that either side tries to just "hide inside the NPCs" for hours on end. I would encourage something like a 30minute or 60minute cooldown on the quests as well - so as to not let them be "spammed", but to encourage possible constant battles and engagements frequently. PvMP will excel and be more enjoyable when the battle is encouraged to keep moving/changing.

7. Automate more "calls to arms" into the PVE general population. The whole point is to encourage more PvMP turn out, so anything that will help build momentum that has grown on one side or the other would possibly get more people out there. Maybe anytime a "keep tyrant" looses 10K health (eg. not just shot once and dragged out of the room for a second), a message into the general "PVE channel" *AND* into the PvMP Regional channel gets announced just like the Spring Festival shrew stomp is: "Lugz Tyrant under seige by Freep forces!" Or something like that... I'm not the one you pick to write your announcements, btw. I know some ppl will not like this because it removes the "sneakyness" of taking some landmarks - but (imho) again I return to the fact that we're talking about MULTI PLAYER areas. Areas that we're trying to encourage a turnout for, not hide in and just do PVE activities.

Maybe make them a questable "announcement" call to arms quest. When a tyrant drops to 10K, a quest opens up somewhere "near but not in the room" allowing the defending side to run a quick quest (eg. reinforcement style - get from here to point "B" and call for help) without dying, and if they hand in the quest THEN the public annoucement goes out. That way the defending side would "have to be aware" in order to call for help.

...well that's what I've managed to get out of my head this afternoon before I return to work.

Again, no disrespect meant to either side - just trying to add ideas into the creative pool out there in the hopes that the outcome is something really fantastic all around.

I'd love to see an abililty to create a private instance where people can 1v1 without infamy or renown gains. Right now, these "1v1ers" try and dual in the landscape and get all bent out of shape when their fights are interrupted.

Simple solution is to let a creep/freep challenge an opposing faction to a dual, bring up a dual confirmation pop-up, add a 10s travel induction, and let them do whatever they want in that private instance to refine their skills. Also be nice to add option to ignore "dual requests from opposing factions."

It's nice to see a channel being opened for communication RE: the coming expansion.

I look forward to the discussions.

Here are a list of my concerns:

1. As a casual player since graduating college and getting married, my "progression" as a creep player has pretty much ceased.

It took me over a year and 3 months to rank from 10 to 11 (which netted me 0 useful skills and a very awesome new skin). Under the current system, my progression is likely ended for the remainder of my time in middle earth. The next rank by my present speed will be about two years (longer if we decide to have hatchlings IRL). The only reason then for me to play, is fun. I've essentially had to just forget about ever expanding my skill set; there are very fun toys at rank 12 and 13 that I will likely never get to use.

This is frustrating to me, as I will never ever get the chance to "complete" my character. I have no problem "earning" my skills and putting in the work, but the time requirement has gone beyond grind to "never going to happen".

There has to be a progression model that doesn't require giving up my life (which I actually enjoy quite a bit) in order to expand my character's abilities. Two years is simply too long to have to go without any character growth.

2. The rollout of the "new and improved hatchling" was a disaster.

Many of us tested this pretty hardcore on Bullroarer, and found lots of problems and bugs. We got no feedback, the bug made it onto live where it continues to screw over plenty of players, and the hatchling is... well meh.

The very existence of this thread is a huge step in the right direction on that front, and I am happy to know in the future who to turn to with my feedback and questions. There are a lot of us monsterplayers who are very dedicated testers for this game, both on the preview server and bullroarer. We are willing to pay you for the chance to test new content and help get it working right. PLEASE don't overlook us. I can't tell you how demoralizing it was to see the "going live" announcement to update 3 without so much as a word or post noting the problems we had discovered in the update six weeks before it hit the servers.

Thanks for introducing yourself and wading into these forums.

Good luck, and try not to let the flame wars/arguments/general tone of these forums get to you/get you down.
It's just a sign of how dedicated a playerbase you have, and how much they care about this small aspect of a great game.

-Stickeez

The main reason I don't PvP at all in LotRO is the fact that raid vs raid PvP is too chaotic and not fun to me. When I want PvP, I log out of LotRO and log in to STO and join 5v5 and 10v10 PvP instances. I enjoy that scale far more because I can play with a small group of friends and the teamwork feels more tangible and my individual contributions to the group are more readily visible. If LotRO had instanced PvP, I wouldn't keep logging out of LotRO every time I want PvP. I don't think I'm the only one. PvE designers for LotRO realized that giant raids of 20+ people aren't fun and started making 3- 6- and 12- person content because it's more fun for a lot of people. Please apply this principle to PvP, too.

vt needs to be on a 2 in cooldown please

but in all seriousness, the moors are very unbalanced at the moment, not sure if you WANT the freeps to be totally stronger, or if by nerfing the ba you wanted everyone to just roll reavers. i hope you see the balance issues and address them sooner rather than later. also i think the ba needs a true damage type not just 90% common dmaage skiills.

Skill/Rotation audits

Purpose, Potency, and Cooldowns
Revise existing instead of adding new

One Idea I had posted a while back that is really the best way to revise existing traits, in my opinion is this;

The same way Moria revamped freep trait lines to go in 3 different paths, ours can be done this way. But instead of giving passive buffs that work off of the trait sets, we get an incombat actual Corruption that appears on our character in combat. This will require the freeps to pay attention and try to remove corruptions off of us, and we can trait specifically to activate different ones, providing creeps with different ways to achieve the role our respective class was designed to fill. For example, a BA who traits in a red line would get a corruption that changes the damage type of his skills, and increases damage output, where as traiting yellow(or a different colour) would give him -attack duration and +attack speed, etc.

I think this would bring a new dynamic to creepside and pvp in general, while giving us creeps an existing trait overhaul.

The only thing I want to see disappear (somehow) is to take the number out of the equation. Lotro PvP is solely based on which side has more people online, 95% of the time, who ever has more, simply wins. I'm located on one of "The Big Three", and all I know is that I gave up PvPing almost a year ago now because going out there when its 70 vs 20, simply is no fun, regardless which side your on.

[QUOTE=Alowynpacia;5325288]

2. Fair vs. Intent & Tactics - I'm going to go hard nosed on this one a bit, and say one of those statements that I'll likely regret later. LOTRO PVE has been designed (primarily) as a solo battle of one "hero" against many mobs. Freeps are intentionally able to buff/build/level/max their stats because for the majority of the mainstream part of LOTRO we're having to take on multiple enemy mobs while running solo. I believe that PvMP is likely to play out no differently. Single creeps should NOT expect to go 1v1 against a freep. Creep power comes from NUMBERS (eg. Sauron sending tens of thousands against Helms Deep's hundreds of defenders). The challenge I see out in PvMP play, is either single creeps complaining they're not tough enough to solo, or fully maxed out L65 freeps who get pwned by single creeps that are clearly overpowered from what I feel is "designed intent" of LOTRO at large. Again, imho, I feel if you are a creep below rank 7 (half way thru the max 15 levels), it should be nearly impossible for you to solo a L65 player (unless they're froob fitted in some pitiful manner). Rank 7+ creeps should gain powers and abilities that slowly allow them to stand on their own against the best freeps. A max level creep should be able to stand toe-to-toe against any class of L65 freep (read as "max XP level") in ANY stat/equipment mix, and have a 50/50 chance at beating them. I don't believe we should be designing PvMP to encourage "solo" activities by creeps. It's "MULTI PLAYER" - and the more you buff creeps to be able to solo, the less likely you're going to get creeps working together in NUMBERS against freeps. (Again, I know - lots of generalities but I hope to clarify more below).

3. Froobs vs. Veterans - Two Areas. I've seen this swing both ways - freeps being farmed at GV that are L40-55; and greenie creeps walking out of Grams for their first real quests. I've heard lots of chatter and griping on this one from both sides - level 40 froobs that think "they belong in PvMP because the gate is open" who then complain at getting ganked 20 feet off the GV stairs; to green creeps that log on once, get pwned by a raid of veteran freeps camping Grams, and decide never to log into monster play again. It's a problem - this needs to be fixed, and the likelyhood of closing PvMP to L60+ only is slim to none. So instead, with the launch of Isengard, I recommend a new PvMP area be opened for freeps of level 60+, *OR* freeps who have earned Rank 5.

Leave the Moors to be for L40-60 freeps and Rank 6 and lower (F2P is fine by me here). Enforce it at the front gate of GV, so that a freep that is Rank 5 or Level 60 gets a "warning/invitation" that they should report to the commander of the "new" PvMP area. When that freep hits L65 *OR* Rank 7 - have GV closed to them permanently - have it port them to the "new" PvMP area instead. They can always rank up another alt if they love the Moors, but part of the problem I see out there is the significant skill/experience differences in the zone that just end up being farming opportunities. The same thing should occur on creepside. Rank 5 creeps start to get the "invitation" and a Rank 7 creep is locked out of the Moors too. (I'm picking Rank 5 because I don't want it to be something that takes "months" for enough players to get to).

Make the "New" PvMP area be for L60+ freeps and Rank 5+ freeps/creeps (and VIP only?). Don't get me started on what this area should be like - but it had better be WAY different in design, look & feel, tactics, size, goals/keeps/etc. so as to be a huge draw for VIP and high-ranked freeps/creeps. Make it be a place we WANT to end up - a reason to level through the Moors - a reward for getting to the higher ranks. It should NOT be the same-old-same-old as the Moors (even after being re-engineered better). It needs to have it's own flavour, feel, character... Rohan maybe? Isengard? I leave that to the Tolkien experts to debate.

4. Fix "exploits" but design scenery with strategic intent for both sides. One of my most annoying issues with the current Moors is the number of scenery-designed (whether intentional or not) exploits that ruin gameplay and cause lots of QQ and pouty-pouty. No castle designer or outpost designer would EVER think of creating something right outside their front door that makes it possible for the enemy to hide out of line-of-sight from the battlements/platforms (eg. the stupid rocks around EC; banner/flag poles outside keep entrances, the upper TA room wall glitch, etc.). A keep/outpost is ALWAYS designed as a defensive position that has clear sight lines in all directions - at least in its immediate vicinity of the front door.

5. Be intentional with your "climbable/reachable" scenery locations. If a rock or tree or ledge or fallen tree is able to be jumped onto, then intentionally design it to be that way, and be open about it. There are TONS of existing and (imho) legitimate vantage points built into the scenery of the Moors that both creeps and freeps QQ about when they're used (eg. the bridge pillars, the upper walls at TR/Lugz, etc.).

7. Automate more "calls to arms" into the PVE general population. The whole point is to encourage more PvMP turn out, so anything that will help build momentum that has grown on one side or the other would possibly get more people out there. Maybe anytime a "keep tyrant" looses 10K health (eg. not just shot once and dragged out of the room for a second), a message into the general "PVE channel" *AND* into the PvMP Regional channel gets announced just like the Spring Festival shrew stomp is: "Lugz Tyrant under seige by Freep forces!" Or something like that... I'm not the one you pick to write your announcements, btw. I know some ppl will not like this because it removes the "sneakyness" of taking some landmarks - but (imho) again I return to the fact that we're talking about MULTI PLAYER areas. Areas that we're trying to encourage a turnout for, not hide in and just do PVE activities.

QUOTE]

I completely agree with what i have quoted above. There needs to be a pvp map for lower ranks, and one for higher ranks so people have fair competition. I also agree that the higher ranked map should be VIP only, or Turbine points. There also should be a test people have to pass to get to the new map? Like fighting 3 elite mobs? ( just a random number), because i dont want someone who has leeched to get to r6 and start in the high ranked pvp zone.

I'll second what oogabooga said - I don't know about other servers but on Brandywine, it seems that Creeps constantly outnumber the Freeps. Sure, there are lulls when the Freeps manage to swipe most of the keeps on the map but these are quickly retaken again in rather short order afterwards. Speaking for myself, I'd like to see population caps added for both sides to control the numbers - then balance up the abilities of both sides in a manner that would provide a fair fight for all. Maybe I've just spent too many years playing World Of Warcraft (where PvP zones have limits on participant numbers).....but going to the Moors right now isn't a terribly enticing prospect (for me at least) when the sides are constantly numerically unbalanced.

Oh, and one other things I have never understood - why is the 'entry level' for Freeps at Level 40? Considering that all Creeps start at Level 65, am I to assume that a Level 40 Freep has abilities/gear to somehow compensate? Walking into the Moors at 40 strikes me as nothing more than pure suicide....

Sounds good unless this is all going to be focused 100% on adding every thing to the lotro store for purchase instead of playing.

Store items that are bad:

- Selling the Crude and poor maps
More instant movement across the map will add more unbalance to the ettenmoors. People should still have to earn these. It helps to maintain some balance of travel across the map.

- Selling creep skills with out the rank restrictions
This is not convenience

- Selling OP creep Health and Power potions
This is not convenience

-Selling Rank modifiers (+10% renown/infamy gain for __ duration)
This will ruin all accomplishments ranking has. it will be reduced to nothing more then grinding through the PVMP gating system.

Also Yes I know why you added +10% renown to the new PVMP sets, and the + 10% infamy to DP buffs. You already plan on adding it. You already have the earn through in-game equivalent in to try and justify adding in the new Tomes this fall. Please do not do it Turbine.

-Selling OP Cure potions (The ones that cure multiple poisons, wounds, fears, and diseases.)
If you do not have an earn through in-game version people can earn. This will greatly affect the usefulness of several different classes. It is not a convenience item.

-Selling traits/trait slots for monster players
Please do not sell trait slots they are one of the very few advancements monster players get. It is not convenience. Also please do not sell rank 2 corruptions. At least make them earn the rank 2 ones in-game and not sell both.

-Appearance cosmetics
If you want to add new ones fine but please leave the current ones requiring there current ranks.

-Tracking Talismans without the current class restrictions
We do not need all creeps with the ability to track every one. It will negatively affect the game balance.

Good store system to sell:

-Shared storage crate for monster players
It would function for all of your creeps to share the same crate. It would have 20 slots available for free for subscribers, and purchasable for F2P-premium players. It would have extra compartments available for VIP, F2P, and Premium players to buy.

Creeps need a storage place, and a way to trade there items between there alts without the need to rely on others with the trade system. This system would take care of both of those issues. The 20 slots free for subscribers would be a nice token of appreciation for us having to go with out for so long.

Also can't wait for the new region to play in. Please do not end up having this just be level 70 ettenmoors with all of the store trimmings added. The executive producer clearly said:

Expanded Monster Play – LOTRO’s monster play system will get a major revamp including opening up the feature to all players, changes to monster player skills and advancement and a brand new region for players to battle for or against the forces of evil.

http://www.lotro.com/news/pressreleases/910

Don't forget to add a way to earn TP through monster play for those who have already completed the very limited amount of deeds available out there. Roll an alt is not an option for some due to already having them done on them also.

Welcome! I am looking forward to having a more focus on PvMP play. There are a few things I ask of you ...

1. Do your own reserach ...

People will tell you things are wrong because it suits their purposes. And yes, there are things wrong. Instead of taking someone's word or using a majority vote, play the game ... and play it in the real world. Make your creep characters on Brandywine (probably the most active and populated server). Level the character to rank 5 without any special "developer" help. Do it the way we do. And then you will have a valid opinion about the issue.

Even if the issue is a freep issue, see it from the creep perspective. If you are told that Runekeepers are not powerful enough, play against them and see.

2. Decide what type of PvMP game you want to have ...

There are many directions you can take the PvMP portion of LOTRO. Decide which one it will be. Personally I believe you have the makings of the best Raid vs Raid game available, and that you could offer it as a separate fee based game.

If you are looking for PvP, then make small zones with limited players ... or make an arena system/area for 1v1, 2v2, etc. If you are looking for larger, balanced groups, then follow the example of Guild Wars and have specific group vs group instances where teams compete.

And if you want Raid vs Raid then make raids the most attractive option. Gold tagging is one of the worst problems in the game. Gold taggers (people who follow the raid and cream the points) currently can make much more infamy/renown by using the raid as a shield and taking advantage of the algorithm that gives more points to a solo player (even though they are actually using the raid).

3. Fix the existing bugs before adding more features ...

The "Warleader Bug" has existed longer than the game has been public. It was discovered back in Beta testing and ignored. I appreciate that this may be a difficult bug to track and fix. In the interim put in place a simple mechanism to fix the problem. All you need do is to put a character in Gramsfoot who "resets" the creep character. This not a solution but instead a work-around.

The most recent updates caused /follow to no longer work while the character is running. This is a very useful and important feature in PvMP. Fix it quickly and show us that you mean business.

My wife and I have been involved with LOTRO since Beta I. We have seen the game get better and better. My wife prefers PvMP. So, 15 months ago we began playing PvMP on creep side only. We are not whines and not children. We just want you to make this a good game again.

Thank you for listening ...

Welcome, and welcome back, Orion! It's been too long.

My only suggestion regarding balance is don't listen to us until we've beta'd what you've done. Then please listen carefully.

1) Please give us incentive to scale our groups based on our opposition. In other words, add tapping penalties to combat solo zerg mobs.

2) Provide incentives for leadership; either titles or increased infamy/renown by a slight margin, or some other way to entice leaders to lead when there needs to be one.

3) Take NPCs off stab and wtab. Thin them out in OC and EC and removes those camp's walls.

4) Remove outposts and leave the delving open at all times; thin out the npcs down there. Its a whole nother pvp map that no one pvp's in. Add DP rewards via quest for creeps to replace the DP rewards in outposts.

5) Give us back hotspots.

6) Remove the flag rooms from keeps. They only allow map outs. Prevent drop pulls and add slows to the npc's abilities to prevent keep zergs.

7) Give creeps and freeps mail and vault access in Grams and GV

8) Give us crafting access in the moors. Expert fields and library in HH. Forges at the dwarf camp near Isen. A work bench in EC. And give them a slightly higher percent chance to crit than anywhere else in the world.

9) Periodically adjust the DP rewards for An, Golloval and Goldhead and ad a DP reward for the named Dwarf at the Dwarf camp.

10) If the freeps own the 5 keeps plus the two relics, TA spawns Relic and Forge masters with a higher percent chance to grant a pool A legacy on reforge.

Hey there, and welcome. Just a thought,

How about some kind of PvmP event every now and then? The moors can be a blast when both sides agree to form raids and fight in specific areas, away from the same old EC/TA lawn sort of deal. However, this doesn't happen often. If Turbine could somehow assist in the creating of these events, perhaps through instanced pvmp as previously suggested.... It would be worth a shot. If not that, let the creeps roll through an instanced Lothlorien or Rivendell or something every Halloween :P. Both freeps and creeps allowed to capture certain points like in skirmishes with little npc involvement. When once person drops out of the instance, another is allowed to enter to keep it going, similar to session play slots.

Originally Posted by Tarrnation

Ever thought about adding instanced PvP? Conquest, Deathmatch, Capture the [insert random LOTR lore item here], 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc.???

These types of play styles may not be as "original" as the Moors is, but they are certainly tried and true by many of the most successful titles in the gaming industry.

This was posted earlier. I think these are all great ideas, but if they are implemented be SURE not to let them become the focus of PvMP. Especially the 1v1, 2v2, etc. While they are fun, if that is the focus of PvMP in LotRO, it will scare off most if not all new players. I've never liked games like that, where the big thing to do is battle people who are better than you, until you can spend the hours, days, weeks of constant playing to beat that one kid on the top who plays for 15 hours every day.

Other than that, I've done some thinking about what would make the moors more enjoyable, and I've come to the conclusion that, for me at least, it needs to be more keep based than point based. What I mean by this is that there should be some obvious benefits to holding however many keeps. Skirmishes between Freeps and Creeps should be fought over these, and not so much just because here is the best place to turtle up and sit it out.

Example: Holding TA could give an infamy/renown bonus. (I think point bonuses would motivate more than more combat oriented rewards, such as boosted attack.)

The big requirement for these changes to be implemented would be a very good balance. If one side always has the power to hold all the keeps, it won't be any fun for the other side.

Originally Posted by Alowynpacia

1. At the end of the day, PvMP should be fun.

...

3. Froobs vs. Veterans - Two Areas. I've seen this swing both ways - freeps being farmed at GV that are L40-55; and greenie creeps walking out of Grams for their first real quests. I've heard lots of chatter and griping on this one from both sides - level 40 froobs that think "they belong in PvMP because the gate is open" who then complain at getting ganked 20 feet off the GV stairs; to green creeps that log on once, get pwned by a raid of veteran freeps camping Grams, and decide never to log into monster play again. It's a problem - this needs to be fixed, and the likelyhood of closing PvMP to L60+ only is slim to none. So instead, with the launch of Isengard, I recommend a new PvMP area be opened for freeps of level 60+, *OR* freeps who have earned Rank 5.

...

I agree wholeheartedly with this. The day I signed up for VIP, I saw that nice shiny Monster Play button and decided to give it a try. Rolled a Blackarrow, since my main was already a Hunter. Killed a few slugs, killed a few wolves, killed a couple hobbits...and then got CRUSHED in about 15 seconds by a level 65 LM with a Bog Guardian. Gee, that was fun. I ain't been back.

Also, I know it's impossible to stop, but boy, it sure would be nice to limit the epeening in GLFF. Very little more annoying than people chest-bumping over PvMP when you're trying to get some actual PvE questing done. Guess that's par for the course when the L65s get bored because they've already run the existing content over 9000 times. So, paradoxically, perhaps one of the best things that could happen to PvMP is more end-game PvE content to keep the Moors from lapsing into nothing more than an "I've got nothing better to do" zone.