Thread: My thoughts on relic scrolls.

Originally Posted by Gandie2

So here I am with these 4 toons and their 8 level 40 cap LI's with rocken t6, and t7, relics, and bam. First re-forge after this update my relics don't come out. I'm like what did I do screw up. Did I forget to check the box to have the relics removed.

Ignoring the semi-foolish nature of having T6+ relics in you first LIs (which should have been decon'd as soon as you hit lvl 51) the real part of this post that I find distasteful is asking if we are blind or stupid not being able to understand that he basically has to buy these scrolls when it is was the OP's own fault he is in this position. You say you play 2 accounts for a long time, have lots of high level characters, I see you have 200+ forum posts so you do come here and interact. How is it you didn't read any of the hundreds of posts about this topic or even one of the very publicized Dev diaries, patch notes and SO MANY other OFFICIAL sources of info on this topic before the update came out. And when your relics were ALL automatically unslotted, no red flags came up in your mind? They only reset things on LIs when there have been major changes. They even removed previously un-removable crafted relics.

Anyway, I want to feel bad for you but I just can't. That we had this whole new system out there and you couldn't even spend an hour to look into it, see what the new options were (which many are significantly better than old T6 relics) and do a little research drains me of any compassion I might have had.

Sometimes in life you have to learn things 'the hard way'. Consider this an example of that. I guess we aren't the only 'blind' ones on this issue.

Originally Posted by Munuc

Second, I feel much less excited about playing alts nowadays. I've always loved playing alts. I have 7 level 65s. But the grind required to get decent relics for them -- and then facing the prospect of having those relics lost when I get a new LI -- is sickening. If a system is making me dread playing alts because of the grind required ... then ultimately that has to be bad for the game.

I was thinking this myself. I made 9 chars on Windfola. I have only 3 so far that have LI, but if I had to keep paying to keep relics...I'd go broke. So, it won't be happening. What does this mean? I'm not going to use top level relics at all until max cap for LI is reached. The crafted ones, no big deal, I can get those easily. But the relic grind is going to force me to avoid using them simply so I don't go broke playing a game that should cost less than 15$ a month to play straight out. I know Turbines stated intention was that they want relics to be use and toss. But obviously, people don't treat them like that, and putting into play a mechanic that is diametrically opposed to how people treat them.....I'm really not going to enjoy having to grind them out over and over again.

Instances are one thing, there are visual effects to enjoy, stuff to loot, people to play with. Relic grinding is a negative experience. Spending coin vs earning it. Losing relics with each combine, with no guarantee of getting a crit. Scads of time spent earning skirmish marks or running repeats for relics to decon, attempting to get shards (a relic within a relic system, adding more grind, bleh). Too much like work to me. I'll just avoid it and not use them until I have a LI I'm keeping. Being able to swap out legacies works only in so far as your LI has the major or minor legacy placeholders to swap into, otherwise, you are still going to be grinding them out to get one with the right number of majors and minors. The new system only LOOKS like it has less grind, if you just look on the surface.

The only problem I see with the new system is player psychology, whereby some people feel compelled to get "the best" stuff (relics, or anything really) even though a lower tier of items provides most of the same benefits at far less time spent.

However, this is always an issue. Earlier the complaint was different - the system was too random and so on. Well they fixed that so you can work towards the exact legacies and relics you want, so the complaints have evolved to reflect something new to cry about.

I think if you hate it that much, opt out: use crafted weapons, use LIs but don't slot any relics, or slot lower tier relics that you don't have to kill yourself grinding for. I forgot to add relics back to items on one of my chars once, after one of those times significant changes were made so Turbine unslotted all relics and refunded points, and didn't notice for a few hours. Having the ultimate relic collection just isn't that critical.

First off, it's not "real money" unless you choose to spend real money. You can get turbine points in other ways, and the vast majority of subscribers will have more than enough points for the few scrolls they'll get. It seems very unlikely that you'll be deconning your favorite weapons over and over (and I hope you don't put your favorite relics on legendaries that you'll decon soon).

Second, you missed a choice. Instead of only "pay money" or "quit the game", it is perfectly viable to just not get these scrolls at all.

Originally Posted by Beldacar

Except that:

A. According to tests run on Bullroarer before this went live, it is NOT faster or easier to acquire a high-tier relic. The new super duper extra special singular unique hyper relics take essentially the same amount of effort as the old Tier 7 and Tier 8 relics.

B. According to many players, myself included, the new top-end relics are significantly inferior to the old top-end relics for many classes (Champions, Rune-Keepers, Guardians, for starters).

C. If you have irreplaceable Tier 7, Tier 8, and Tier 9 relics, it is highly likely you'll want to keep them. In order to continue enjoying the same gameplay experience you have enjoyed up until now, you will in fact be "required" to purchase Scrolls of Removal.

Or course, you could just do what I did and cancel your accounts. Because you're not "required" to keep playing ... or paying.

I think that is ultimately the issue at hand, I think the biggest issue was that Turbine left the old relics behind which can't be preproduced with the existing relic system.

They should have dismantled all relics and given people enough currency to compensate for the loss and let people re-build the relics within the current system's capability. As you have said, now that you have something better than the current system can produce it feels more of a requirement to keep removing the relics than construct new ones.

I am not sure about the math done on bullroarer, if you are correct it would be a significant difference to what they have claimed in the dev diary and I hope it would be tweaked if that is the case.

But I find the extreme raging to be a little bizarre, it is not like the content is that cutting edge that some minor variances in gear is going to be the difference between success or failure. Compared to most mmos the lotro higher-end content is fairly easy.

People just rage because they see a change where they had something which is now lost or different and it just shatters their barely adequate psychological state. When you take a step back and think about it though, even if you just let go of the old relics and slotted in inferior ones later on, will it have that massive an impact to your gameplay? Will you go from champ to chump?

I think people just need a little bit of perspective.

Originally Posted by AlatarielCarnesir

The only problem I see with the new system is player psychology, whereby some people feel compelled to get "the best" stuff (relics, or anything really) even though a lower tier of items provides most of the same benefits at far less time spent.

You may enjoy driving your Ford, but I prefer my Lexus. Your car may provide most of the same benefits as mine (getting from point A to point B) but it does't mean that I shouldn't have the opportunity to own something I consider to be better.

Originally Posted by Zvim666

I think that is ultimately the issue at hand, I think the biggest issue was that Turbine left the old relics behind which can't be preproduced with the existing relic system.

They should have dismantled all relics and given people enough currency to compensate for the loss and let people re-build the relics within the current system's capability. As you have said, now that you have something better than the current system can produce it feels more of a requirement to keep removing the relics than construct new ones.

I am not sure about the math done on bullroarer, if you are correct it would be a significant difference to what they have claimed in the dev diary and I hope it would be tweaked if that is the case.

But I find the extreme raging to be a little bizarre, it is not like the content is that cutting edge that some minor variances in gear is going to be the difference between success or failure. Compared to most mmos the lotro higher-end content is fairly easy.

People just rage because they see a change where they had something which is now lost or different and it just shatters their barely adequate psychological state. When you take a step back and think about it though, even if you just let go of the old relics and slotted in inferior ones later on, will it have that massive an impact to your gameplay? Will you go from champ to chump?

I think people just need a little bit of perspective.

I've asked the question before, and I'll ask it again.. How is it any of your business what relics I choose to slot? Why should my work and achievements be thrown aside to appease the bruised egos of those who didn't put in the time or effort to get them? We're not PVPing, so what I have has ZERO impact on you and your game. There's only one reason for others to want to destroy that which we have... jealousy. Making other players weaker does NOT even the playing fields in a PvE game.

Some of the new relics really are better and have made their way into my current builds, but most are nothing but a slightly buffed version of the previous lower tier. Add +2 might and 30 melee/ranged/tactical offense for the next higher tier. That's not customization at all, in my opinion.

Ah finally a thread about Turbine removing an 'in game' common function and making it a store only item.

For the people who have replied to the OP that his/her thread was too long for you to read I'll put my main point up front.

I agree with the OP. Taking the existing ways of removing relics from LI's out of the game and sticking a store only scroll in there place is way wrong.

So many of you are saying this scroll is just an added convenience. Hogwash, As pointed out by the OP,

Originally Posted by Gandie2

.... If they, 'Turbine' had done this; that is leave the old relic recovery on re-forge and on decon 'at max level' in the game and simply added a scroll in the store that would remove relics at other times, then the scrolls would have truly been what many are claiming them to be now. An added convenience, that was an option to buy. Instead they chose to remove the old 'in game' methods of relic recovery and replace them with a store only scroll. This my friend is not simply an added convenience. ....

to this I say, Exactly.

This is what this thread is about. The removal of an every day in game function that we have all used countless times, and making it a store bought only function.

To this I say no way Jose.

I made a post about this a number of days ago. It went POOF! It was called 'The goose that laid the golden egg'. Two days later I made another post asking where it went but that went poof as well. Got the impression it was a taboo subject so kind of surprised to see this post here.

For some the debate seems to center on the idea that no one will wish to un-slot their relics anymore. So I will weigh in on this subject in a moment. But first, why should this matter to the main thrust of this debate. To me the main idea is the removal of an in game function and replacing it with a store bought only item. I also have to agree with the OP when he/she said,

Originally Posted by Gandie2

I repeat. Turbine did not put that scroll in the store because they expect no one to buy them.

I saw someone in a reply saying that Turbine feels they have made acquiring relics so easy that they expect everyone to just toss them without a thought. If this was so why put the scroll in the store?

Why go through the trouble of re coding the re-forge window so when people re-forged they no longer got their relics back? and yes, this was a purposeful piece of coding that was an unnecessary change to effect the other changes to the relic system.

Turbine put the scroll in the store to sell it and they removed getting relics back on re-forge to help make the scroll a big seller.

I know I promised to address the fallacy that relics are now so easy to grind as to be worthless, and I do intend to. But I'm going to close out this post now as I have something I need to do and I may not get back to it. So if I get the time I'll make a second post addressing some of the other thoughts in this thread.

To the OP. Good post. I borrowed heavily from your terminology you said just what I was thinking.

Originally Posted by LadyVix

You may enjoy driving your Ford, but I prefer my Lexus. Your car may provide most of the same benefits as mine (getting from point A to point B) but it does't mean that I shouldn't have the opportunity to own something I consider to be better.

A better analogy would be a today's Ford and a vintage Cadillac. If you want to keep your Cadillac in shape you need pay extra because they are no longer being produced

This is how I think we got to this stage. This is a hypothetical of what I think happened at a meeting.

Manager: So I ask all you why the VIP's are not spending TP.
Worker: Because they don't like what they see in the store and they are banking them for the xpac.
Manager: We can't have that now, everybody must be using the store.
Manager: Find something that the VIP do on a regular basis.
Worker: Our data points at they decon LI's for relics.
Manager: OK since they do that were going to make the following changes, and force them to use the store. Make an LI scroll to keep your relics. Report to me later to see if this works. We want everybody spending TP.

And that is how we got that change. Pure and simple, its called the milk button.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

A better analogy would be a today's Ford and a vintage Cadillac. If you want to keep your Cadillac in shape you need pay extra because they are no longer being produced

I like this analogy. I must have a soft spot for vintage automobiles....

I've seen some comments about how Turbine is taking our older relics away from us. They're not. Even after you've slotted them, you can continue using them in that LI for as long as you want. And if you never destroy that LI, regardless of whether you use it, then those relics will never be lost to you.

What we can no longer do is freely move them from one LI to another. I can see the justification for no longer having that mechanic in the game with the changes to the relic system. I am grateful that Turbine did give me the option to keep my top-end relics in the form of the relic removal scroll. I plan on using it when I need to.

Yes, it's Store-only, but I consider the Store as part of the game now. That ship has sailed, and I don't worry about the fiction of convenience vs. advantage. It is what it is. As a Lifer, I get 500 TP each month, and the scroll, which I expect to use perhaps once every six months or so, only costs 2/5 of my points for a month.

If it helps, consider viewing the Store as another barter interface in the game, with TP as barter tokens. Subscribers and lifers get 500 of these tokens each month, while everyone can earn TP tokens by completing deeds, etc. Yes, you can also buy these tokens directly, but that doesn't particularly bother me. Some people have time, some people have money, and everyone has a mix of both.

If being able to buy TP "barter tokens" directly bothers you (and I speaking generically), then you have to decide how much it bothers you. Can you get over it and continue playing? Continue playing but ignore the fact the Store exists? Or does it bother you enough to leave the game? Your choice.

Originally Posted by erictlewis

This is how I think we got to this stage. This is a hypothetical of what I think happened at a meeting.

Manager: So I ask all you why the VIP's are not spending TP.
Worker: Because they don't like what they see in the store and they are banking them for the xpac.
Manager: We can't have that now, everybody must be using the store.
Manager: Find something that the VIP do on a regular basis.
Worker: Our data points at they decon LI's for relics.
Manager: OK since they do that were going to make the following changes, and force them to use the store. Make an LI scroll to keep your relics. Report to me later to see if this works. We want everybody spending TP.

And that is how we got that change. Pure and simple, its called the milk button.

Except, of course, most of us who "decon LI's for relics", didn't slot relics in those LIs. We only slot relics in LIs we expected to keep for a substantial period of time. In my case, I've had the same Level 65 class item since the second week of Mirkwood, and my second age Level 65 weapon LI almost as long as when those recipes went in.

If this is a milk button, this particular cow is only going to get milked twice a year, on average. Sorry, but I don't buy your hypothetical.

I am sure that Turbine wants us to buy TPs and spend TPs. And I will be happy to do so, provided that there are things in the Store that I want to spend them on. Comparatively speaking, the relic removal scroll, which is a measly 195 TP, is small potatoes.

Originally Posted by AlatarielCarnesir

The only problem I see with the new system is player psychology, whereby some people feel compelled to get "the best" stuff (relics, or anything really) even though a lower tier of items provides most of the same benefits at far less time spent.

However, this is always an issue. Earlier the complaint was different - the system was too random and so on. Well they fixed that so you can work towards the exact legacies and relics you want, so the complaints have evolved to reflect something new to cry about.

I think if you hate it that much, opt out: use crafted weapons, use LIs but don't slot any relics, or slot lower tier relics that you don't have to kill yourself grinding for. I forgot to add relics back to items on one of my chars once, after one of those times significant changes were made so Turbine unslotted all relics and refunded points, and didn't notice for a few hours. Having the ultimate relic collection just isn't that critical.

Character progression is a huge part of traditional MMORPGs. When you've already got the best armor, the best skills, the best jewelry, and the best weapons, what else is there to do other than tweak the details? Those details may not make a huge amount difference individually, but every little bit adds up.

Originally Posted by Lohi

First off, it's not "real money" unless you choose to spend real money. You can get turbine points in other ways, and the vast majority of subscribers will have more than enough points for the few scrolls they'll get. It seems very unlikely that you'll be deconning your favorite weapons over and over (and I hope you don't put your favorite relics on legendaries that you'll decon soon).

Second, you missed a choice. Instead of only "pay money" or "quit the game", it is perfectly viable to just not get these scrolls at all.

Eventually it turns into "real money." If you were planning on saving up TP for the next expansion, but instead those TP get sucked into salvaging relics from your "legendary" items, that means you'll have to spend "real money" on the expansion. To put it another way, if it didn't involve "real money," Turbine wouldn't expend so much effort on the Store, would they?

As for your "vast majority" ... well, I'd say the "vast majority" of players with T7, T8, and T9 relics will be purchasing Scrolls of Removal from the Store. Possibly as few as four a year (2 LIs x 2 upgrades / year), possibly as many as ten (5 LIs x 2 upgrades / year), per level-capped character. That's between $8 and $20 per year per maxed character. If you have lots of high-level alts, that can add up quite quickly, don't you think? At the very least it will make a serious dent in the TP you're saving up for the next expansion.

And yes, you have the option to simply not buy Scrolls of Removal. But that means changing your playstyle, possibly significantly, over what appears to be a blatant money grab by Turbine. Why would any rational consumer put up with that? It's the rough equivalent of a cell phone company suddenly deciding that they're going to start charging extra for "long distance" calls. Sure, you could cut back on your long distance calling. But wouldn't it make more sense to move to a different cell phone provider instead?

Originally Posted by Zvim666

I think that is ultimately the issue at hand, I think the biggest issue was that Turbine left the old relics behind which can't be preproduced with the existing relic system.

They should have dismantled all relics and given people enough currency to compensate for the loss and let people re-build the relics within the current system's capability. As you have said, now that you have something better than the current system can produce it feels more of a requirement to keep removing the relics than construct new ones.

I am not sure about the math done on bullroarer, if you are correct it would be a significant difference to what they have claimed in the dev diary and I hope it would be tweaked if that is the case.

But I find the extreme raging to be a little bizarre, it is not like the content is that cutting edge that some minor variances in gear is going to be the difference between success or failure. Compared to most mmos the lotro higher-end content is fairly easy.

People just rage because they see a change where they had something which is now lost or different and it just shatters their barely adequate psychological state. When you take a step back and think about it though, even if you just let go of the old relics and slotted in inferior ones later on, will it have that massive an impact to your gameplay? Will you go from champ to chump?

I think people just need a little bit of perspective.

My "rage" stems from the fact that I supported Turbine through months of content drought, and argued in favor of their plan to add a cash shop, on the basis of their statements that the cash shop would offer "convenience, not advantage." It is clear that either Turbine lied or Turbine simply has a very different view of "convenience" than I do. I let stat tomes slide, because they're at least theoretically available in the game. I let the super healing potions slide, because I just don't think too many players are going to waste money on the things. But the slippery slope has gotten steeper and steeper.

And frankly, I don't like it when companies mislead me. It makes me not want to give them money. It makes me want to warn all my friends not to give them money. It makes me want to tell random strangers on the Internet not to give them money.

I trusted Turbine to keep their promise. They didn't. They no longer deserve my money. I am being kind enough to tell them what they have done to no longer deserve my money. If enough players feel the way I do, maybe Turbine will learn something and reverse their direction. If the cash generated from those who are willing to accept Turbine's bad behavior is sufficient to make up for the loss of my subscription dollars, then this isn't a game I'll want to play much longer anyway ;^)

Originally Posted by Reniannen

A better analogy would be a today's Ford and a vintage Cadillac. If you want to keep your Cadillac in shape you need pay extra because they are no longer being produced

An even better analogy would be a vintage Cadillac, and your mechanic has taken a part out on purpose, to force you to pay money to "fix" the problem.

Originally Posted by tharkun3

Ah finally a thread about Turbine removing an 'in game' common function and making it a store only item.

For the people who have replied to the OP that his/her thread was too long for you to read I'll put my main point up front.

I agree with the OP. Taking the existing ways of removing relics from LI's out of the game and sticking a store only scroll in there place is way wrong.

So many of you are saying this scroll is just an added convenience. Hogwash, As pointed out by the OP,



to this I say, Exactly.

This is what this thread is about. The removal of an every day in game function that we have all used countless times, and making it a store bought only function.

To this I say no way Jose.

I made a post about this a number of days ago. It went POOF! It was called 'The goose that laid the golden egg'. Two days later I made another post asking where it went but that went poof as well. Got the impression it was a taboo subject so kind of surprised to see this post here.

It got renamed and possibly merged with one or more related threads. Here it is. http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-on-the-update

And yes, it is very much against the rules to comment on forum moderation. I'm sure you wouldn't want to receive a PM telling you that you've received an infraction, complete with a cut-and-paste of the relevant forum rule. That might make you sad. Or angry ;^)

For some the debate seems to center on the idea that no one will wish to un-slot their relics anymore. So I will weigh in on this subject in a moment. But first, why should this matter to the main thrust of this debate. To me the main idea is the removal of an in game function and replacing it with a store bought only item. I also have to agree with the OP when he/she said,

I saw someone in a reply saying that Turbine feels they have made acquiring relics so easy that they expect everyone to just toss them without a thought. If this was so why put the scroll in the store?

Why go through the trouble of re coding the re-forge window so when people re-forged they no longer got their relics back? and yes, this was a purposeful piece of coding that was an unnecessary change to effect the other changes to the relic system.

Turbine put the scroll in the store to sell it and they removed getting relics back on re-forge to help make the scroll a big seller.

I know I promised to address the fallacy that relics are now so easy to grind as to be worthless, and I do intend to. But I'm going to close out this post now as I have something I need to do and I may not get back to it. So if I get the time I'll make a second post addressing some of the other thoughts in this thread.

To the OP. Good post. I borrowed heavily from your terminology you said just what I was thinking.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

A better analogy would be a today's Ford and a vintage Cadillac. If you want to keep your Cadillac in shape you need pay extra because they are no longer being produced

The analogy is so flawed as to be complete BS. A Vintage Caddy is a huge gas sucker, doesn't get the mileage a new Caddy would get, doesn't have the same safety features...it's like saying a 50 year old car is better than a new one (ignore the much safer all steel construction for this purpose). Maybe that's how the game works with regard to 1st,2nd,3rd age items, but that's generally NOT how the real world works. New high tier relics aren't as good as old max tier ones, so to keep the old ones you must pay for it, when you used to NOT pay for it.

It's a blatant cash grab and nothing more. I hope no one buys into this. Not only that, but apparently Turbine has aimed this right at long time players (lifers and VIPs alike), since for the most part the f2p people don't have anywhere close to the LI setups that the long term subs would have. 6 months isn't enough time IMO for f2p people to have a stable full of 65's with maxed LI and great relics, and that should be obvious to people. (***Try to remember that the incoming expansion will increase the LI levels, thereby making it necessary for all max levels characters to regrind LI, meaning they MUST purchase scrolls for each LI on the character (maybe 3 or more for some classes) and per character (maybe 5 or more). 15 x 195 = 2925, which is almost half the yearly stipend of TP Turbine generously awards people who pay them money up front for sub fees, and that's the low end of it. Want to bet the expansion is going to cost at least the equivalent of a years points or more?)

If it was convenience, then there would exist something in game that would do the same thing, only it would be more difficult to achieve. That is the definition of convenience in an MMO with a store. It doesn't matter what Turbine says in that regard, you can't paint a pile of excrement gold and say it IS gold. I can't believe they are attempting to justify the change with a store scroll and using the change as a reason to make the change (we want players to treat them as use and throw). Maybe they might be able to make this claim if it were at all possible to achieve a similarly powered max relic in the current system compared to the old one, but it's not, so they can't. They can't even claim there is less grind, since the required shards needed for melding to get the better relics in this system require as much grind, or more, as the old one. I will also say that it was likely bandied about that they just remove all higher tier relics, but they likely reasoned correctly that it would just inflame the long term player base in a way they could not repair.

If players allow this to remain without arguing heavily against it, you are giving them license to do more of this, and they WILL do it. That they can choose to do it anyway regardless of what players think only suggests they are not concerned at all about the players. If you like spending more money than a sub fee to play the game, by all means do so. If you like having game functions absorbed into a store, and removed from the game, then more power to you.

Me, I would have preferred to have just a sub fee, and then got all these nice things as a part of the sub fee (including the ability to remove relics on reforge, since in the absence of a store, that is EXACTLY what would be happening. Maybe if VIP's got relic removal for free but f2p players had to pay it would make sense, but....). I don't understand how anyone could argue against that logic, but they do. I guess that day is never going to come back. This makes me feel like a stupid idiot for paying a lifetime fee after Moria came out, cause I'll never see the return on that investment. Basically what I did was pay for all the current quest packs (minus SoM), char slots, and gold cap, in one large cash purchase. And I probably did it for a lot more money than a f2p player would now have to, even deducting for the time between my purchase and the time they went f2p. Including adding SoM and shared storage. Well played, Turbine.

Originally Posted by probitas

The analogy is so flawed as to be complete BS. A Vintage Caddy is a huge gas sucker, doesn't get the mileage a new Caddy would get, doesn't have the same safety features...it's like saying a 50 year old car is better than a new one (ignore the much safer all steel construction for this purpose). Maybe that's how the game works with regard to 1st,2nd,3rd age items, but that's generally NOT how the real world works. New high tier relics aren't as good as old max tier ones, so to keep the old ones you must pay for it, when you used to NOT pay for it.

It's a blatant cash grab and nothing more. I hope no one buys into this. Not only that, but apparently Turbine has aimed this right at long time players (lifers and VIPs alike), since for the most part the f2p people don't have anywhere close to the LI setups that the long term subs would have. 6 months isn't enough time IMO for f2p people to have a stable full of 65's with maxed LI and great relics, and that should be obvious to people.

If it was convenience, then there would exist something in game that would do the same thing, only it would be more difficult to achieve. That is the definition of convenience in an MMO with a store. It doesn't matter what Turbine says in that regard, you can't paint a pile of excrement gold and say it IS gold. I can't believe they are attempting to justify the change with a store scroll and using the change as a reason to make the change (we want players to treat them as use and throw). Maybe they might be able to make this claim if it were at all possible to achieve a similarly powered max relic in the current system compared to the old one, but it's not, so they can't. They can't even claim there is less grind, since the required shards needed for melding to get the better relics in this system require as much grind, or more, as the old one. I will also say that it was likely bandied about that they just remove all higher tier relics, but they likely reasoned correctly that it would just inflame the long term player base in a way they could not repair.

If players allow this to remain without arguing heavily against it, you are giving them license to do more of this, and they WILL do it. That they can choose to do it anyway regardless of what players think only suggests they are not concerned at all about the players. If you like spending more money than a sub fee to play the game, by all means do so. If you like having game functions absorbed into a store, and removed from the game, then more power to you.

Me, I would have preferred to have just a sub fee, and then got all these nice things as a part of the sub fee (including the ability to remove relics on reforge, since in the absence of a store, that is EXACTLY what would be happening). I don't understand how anyone could argue against that logic, but they do. I guess that day is never going to come back. This makes me feel like a stupid idiot for paying a lifetime fee after Moria came out, cause I'll never see the return on that investment. Basically what I did was pay for all the current quest packs (minus SoM), char slots, and gold cap, in one large cash purchase. And I probably did it for a lot more money than a f2p player would now have to. Including adding SoM and shared storage. Well played, Turbine.

Can I haz ur stuff?

Originally Posted by Munuc

I'd be happy if the only way to get relics back was deconstructing at max level. There would still be problems, but at least when the time comes to replace LIs, we wouldn't need to re-grind all the relics. If we're faced with the prospect of grinding 6 replacement extraordinary relics later this year, that's 18 tier 6 relics (which equates to about 13,000 tier 1s; maybe 35,000 skirmish marks if you got them all that way). That is a big ask. And in a way it breaks a fundamental rule of MMO development to not take stuff away from players. Forcing us to re-acquire things we spent hours and hours getting seems really stupid, frankly.

I think this might backfire on Turbine in a couple of ways too.

Firstly, apart from a few stat tomes, I am much less likely to buy anything else from the Turbine store now. I want to save my monthly points just to get relic removal scrolls to avoid that huge grind when the expansion arrives. A system that makes people LESS likely to buy from the store seems like a bad one to me.

Second, I feel much less excited about playing alts nowadays. I've always loved playing alts. I have 7 level 65s. But the grind required to get decent relics for them -- and then facing the prospect of having those relics lost when I get a new LI -- is sickening. If a system is making me dread playing alts because of the grind required ... then ultimately that has to be bad for the game.

I could have lived with this. I hate people who tell me this update isn't bad because Relics are so easy to replace. Yes the new ones are easy, They are Also JUNK plain and simple JUNK!. My T9 I lost was Epic. I will never get them back now. So don't tell me there easy to replace. I left LotRO after doing all Loth and toke time off till about a month and a half ago. So I didn't have a ton on T7-T9 like the other Lifers have. Needless to say I worked hard to get mine. There was no Skrim Relic vendor. I can't help The made there a game so Noob friendly that they broke there own system. If it wasn't for my Need to see Rohan and The White wizards Tower. I will prolly call it quits again. There was a few nice things add when they went F2P. More quest for my Alt's. I can add more Alt's, Which my 7 slot already had High level Toons. So it was nice to add a 8th and soon 9th toon. Long story short, They need to fix this. Make it Max level or even like scrolls. 31+. I had all my 60 LI Maxed so had to break them down for new 61+ LI. So my relics are gone for good. I still got a couple T7 I would like to keep,but guess that is not happening. I spent my Tp load on expansion 7 day mounts on my new toon and vault stuff. Guess I should have read that I need to save all my Tp for Scroll's to get back stuff I worked months on getting.

Originally Posted by Beldacar

My "rage" stems from the fact that I supported Turbine through months of content drought, and argued in favor of their plan to add a cash shop, on the basis of their statements that the cash shop would offer "convenience, not advantage." It is clear that either Turbine lied or Turbine simply has a very different view of "convenience" than I do. I let stat tomes slide, because they're at least theoretically available in the game. I let the super healing potions slide, because I just don't think too many players are going to waste money on the things. But the slippery slope has gotten steeper and steeper.

And frankly, I don't like it when companies mislead me. It makes me not want to give them money. It makes me want to warn all my friends not to give them money. It makes me want to tell random strangers on the Internet not to give them money.

I trusted Turbine to keep their promise. They didn't. They no longer deserve my money. I am being kind enough to tell them what they have done to no longer deserve my money. If enough players feel the way I do, maybe Turbine will learn something and reverse their direction. If the cash generated from those who are willing to accept Turbine's bad behavior is sufficient to make up for the loss of my subscription dollars, then this isn't a game I'll want to play much longer anyway ;^)

That is it in a Nut shell. What is so bad about this update is. They made a awful system to force old school players to pay them more then the sub and Lifers who was to get never pay for anything again other then expansion packs. Pay them more. They really put it to everyone and a few Fanboi's and F2P people who are use to pay stick up for them. It is crazy if u don't see the bad relic system for what it is. I don't think they was looking at the big picture when they made MoM. They made the mines to big. People want to explore and live there fantasy in LotR and they gave us a mine. It made me and thousands of other fill like there was no point in going on. We would never set our eye's on The White City or The gates of Mordor. They need to make it half the size and added Loth and Mirk. Made us fill like we was getting some where. That is for another Thread. Just saying LI wasn't looking at the long picture. If they would have waited till maybe Return of the King for them. They opened the flood gate and to close it on people who worked hard to get them built the way they like them is just bad form.

Originally Posted by Deathstrom

I could have lived with this. I hate people who tell me this update isn't bad because Relics are so easy to replace. Yes the new ones are easy, They are Also JUNK plain and simple JUNK!. My T9 I lost was Epic. I will never get them back now. So don't tell me there easy to replace. I left LotRO after doing all Loth and toke time off till about a month and a half ago. So I didn't have a ton on T7-T9 like the other Lifers have. Needless to say I worked hard to get mine. There was no Skrim Relic vendor. I can't help The made there a game so Noob friendly that they broke there own system. If it wasn't for my Need to see Rohan and The White wizards Tower. I will prolly call it quits again. There was a few nice things add when they went F2P. More quest for my Alt's. I can add more Alt's, Which my 7 slot already had High level Toons. So it was nice to add a 8th and soon 9th toon. Long story short, They need to fix this. Make it Max level or even like scrolls. 31+. I had all my 60 LI Maxed so had to break them down for new 61+ LI. So my relics are gone for good. I still got a couple T7 I would like to keep,but guess that is not happening. I spent my Tp load on expansion 7 day mounts on my new toon and vault stuff. Guess I should have read that I need to save all my Tp for Scroll's to get back stuff I worked months on getting.

How exactly did you lose them again? Just because they were renamed T6 doesnt mean they were taken from you. Did you reslot them into LI's after the update and then decon them?

Thread just got buried in the Legendary section of gameplay.....let's all toast it farewell.

Originally Posted by Scirocco

Except, of course, most of us who "decon LI's for relics", didn't slot relics in those LIs. We only slot relics in LIs we expected to keep for a substantial period of time. In my case, I've had the same Level 65 class item since the second week of Mirkwood, and my second age Level 65 weapon LI almost as long as when those recipes went in.

If this is a milk button, this particular cow is only going to get milked twice a year, on average. Sorry, but I don't buy your hypothetical.

I am sure that Turbine wants us to buy TPs and spend TPs. And I will be happy to do so, provided that there are things in the Store that I want to spend them on. Comparatively speaking, the relic removal scroll, which is a measly 195 TP, is small potatoes.

195 Tp is small potato. So u think LotRO is good enough to Charge u 20 Sub 2 times a year. I know what your answer is. They give u 500 Tp so u are still only paying 15. Yeah guess what I was use my 500 for fun little things. So now when I want my Relics. Which I already had and worked hard to get back. I got to say screw my little things and use my free Tp on Decons or pay 20 that month. Which lotRO is fun and has a Great Story,but it isn't The end all MMO ever. If they had real PvP and OPvP. Then it might be worth it,but it doesn't and never will.

Originally Posted by Alexmook

How exactly did you lose them again? Just because they were renamed T6 doesnt mean they were taken from you. Did you reslot them into LI's after the update and then decon them?

Yes and I know it is my Fault for being lazy. I should have read the Update notes. I really just didn't see this one coming.So I put it in my New 63 LI's until I could decon and get my 65. Now of course my Other 60 2nd age's i had for OP. I will lose them too. I just reslotted all my relics. Hell When I 1st came back after 7 month leave I had to reslot everything. I just Thought k no biggie reslot everything.I'm a Guard OP should have gave that away. ;-P. Tank belt and weapon/ OP 1H/2H weapon and belt. So I use relics in all my LI's.

The update was supposed to unslot all relics free. Only when you reslot would you then need the store scroll to get them back. Your alts that you have not checked should have all relics safely in the relic storage area, wherever that it.

Originally Posted by erictlewis

Manager: Find something that the VIP do on a regular basis.
Worker: Our data points at they decon LI's for relics.

Well, we regularly dcon LIs to obtain new relics. However it is relatively rare to decon an LI that you slotted relics on that you want to keep. This most often occurs when upgrading to a higher level LI, so it's something that happens when leveling up, long before most get the T7-T9 relics anyway.

If they wanted to tax us TP on stuff we do regularly, then this wasn't the best way to do it. Instead they'd make us use TP instead of traveling rations :-)

Originally Posted by LadyVix

You may enjoy driving your Ford, but I prefer my Lexus. Your car may provide most of the same benefits as mine (getting from point A to point B) but it does't mean that I shouldn't have the opportunity to own something I consider to be better.

This analogy is a bit off as others have pointed out, but in any case, that's great you choose a Lexus vs my Ford. But then you don't get to gripe about my low price and cheaper insurance, since you chose the fancier car with its various advantages. Conversely, I don't get to whine about how I demand a Lexus at the price of a Ford.

Originally Posted by Beldacar

Character progression is a huge part of traditional MMORPGs. When you've already got the best armor, the best skills, the best jewelry, and the best weapons, what else is there to do other than tweak the details? Those details may not make a huge amount difference individually, but every little bit adds up.

Exactly... so why should relics be PERMANENTLY earned? As in, grind them once and unslot/reapply forever? Everything else gets replaced when the level cap goes up: armor, jewelry, weapons, class items, but the kvetching is all about relics? It used to be much worse as far as randomness and building the LIs for your character... Turbine designed away much of the randomness and in exchange, we gave up the permarelic.

I wish the design of the LI system let both systems co-exist, but let you only pick one of them to play by. I'd absolutely go for the current LI system, where I get to choose which relics to create, and pick legacies to extract and move, but don't get my relics back on a max level decon (unless I fork over 200 or whatever TP). Meanwhile, all you people that want your relics back also get the other previous features: no legacy extraction, and the luck/grind involved creating maxed relics that you want to use. Combine 5 tier 7's, cross your fingers. Combine 5 tier 8's, cross your fingers, repeat. I see why slot machines are the most profitable and popular games in Vegas, because that mentality is alive and well here too - many players apparently prefer pulling the lever for everything LI related?!

I don't get the whining about this, because in the future even the current best relics will be superceded when the level cap is increased. In effect, since all your gear gets tossed out and reaquired when there is a level cap increase, including the LI itself, we lost very little except the massive randomness inherent in the earlier system. From my viewpoint, this is an all around WIN, the tradeoff is worth it. How many max LIs with maxed out relics are you people deconning anyway? What must be happening is observation bias - right now, people have forgotten about the months they spent rolling over and over for LIs with their desired legacies, and only see the relic issue due to the new ones available. Maybe people will snap out of it when the level cap goes up in the future and the other benefits move to the forefront.

Is the whining really about relic unslot scrolls being store-purchasable only? If they let you grind thousands of skirmish marks to get one, would the tears dry up?

And unless my memory is playing tricks with me, I'm 99% certain the ORIGINAL LI system that shipped with Moria ate your relics on a max level decon. I remember threads about people unslotting their relics at the last reforge, because they didn't want to apply and eventually lose them. Heck I remember doing that. Turbine then changed the system to return the relics one last time. I searched the patch notes and couldn't find this explicitly mentioned, all I found was a Moria patch that said they added a reminder that relics are returned when deconning a max level LI.

Originally Posted by AlatarielCarnesir

This analogy is a bit off as others have pointed out, but in any case, that's great you choose a Lexus vs my Ford. But then you don't get to gripe about my low price and cheaper insurance, since you chose the fancier car with its various advantages. Conversely, I don't get to whine about how I demand a Lexus at the price of a Ford.

Exactly... so why should relics be PERMANENTLY earned? As in, grind them once and unslot/reapply forever? Everything else gets replaced when the level cap goes up: armor, jewelry, weapons, class items, but the kvetching is all about relics? It used to be much worse as far as randomness and building the LIs for your character... Turbine designed away much of the randomness and in exchange, we gave up the permarelic.

They should be permanently earned because A. that's how the system has been up until this point (and it's a bit late now to change a fundamental aspect of the system, as opposed to the niggling details like source of legacies and number of legacies) and B. they were one of the few things in the game that were permanently earned (along with Traits and character level). "Legendary" items still aren't permanent items that "grow with you," though they are a huge improvement over the previous implementations.

I wish the design of the LI system let both systems co-exist, but let you only pick one of them to play by. I'd absolutely go for the current LI system, where I get to choose which relics to create, and pick legacies to extract and move, but don't get my relics back on a max level decon (unless I fork over 200 or whatever TP). Meanwhile, all you people that want your relics back also get the other previous features: no legacy extraction, and the luck/grind involved creating maxed relics that you want to use. Combine 5 tier 7's, cross your fingers. Combine 5 tier 8's, cross your fingers, repeat. I see why slot machines are the most profitable and popular games in Vegas, because that mentality is alive and well here too - many players apparently prefer pulling the lever for everything LI related?!

Why do people want to treat relics and legacies as if they were inextricably intertwined and dependent upon one another? They were totally independent facets of the "legendary" item system. A change to one does not necessarily require, or even imply, a change to the other. The legacies you have on your items have absolutely no impact on the relics and vice versa. And all of a sudden we're supposed to believe that having more control over our legacies and relics means we have to settle for nerfed relics that can't be recovered (except through an extra-game mechanic like the store)? Nonsense.

There is absolutely no good reason why they couldn't reduce the randomness of number of legacies, reduce the randomness of which legacies, reduce the randomness of which relics, and continue with recovering relics upon reforge and/or deconstruction at max level. None.

I don't get the whining about this, because in the future even the current best relics will be superceded when the level cap is increased. In effect, since all your gear gets tossed out and reaquired when there is a level cap increase, including the LI itself, we lost very little except the massive randomness inherent in the earlier system. From my viewpoint, this is an all around WIN, the tradeoff is worth it. How many max LIs with maxed out relics are you people deconning anyway? What must be happening is observation bias - right now, people have forgotten about the months they spent rolling over and over for LIs with their desired legacies, and only see the relic issue due to the new ones available. Maybe people will snap out of it when the level cap goes up in the future and the other benefits move to the forefront.

Is the whining really about relic unslot scrolls being store-purchasable only? If they let you grind thousands of skirmish marks to get one, would the tears dry up?

No tears have been shed. But my faith in Turbine would be marginally restored if they put Scrolls of Removal on a skirmish vendor, yes. Call it a "matter of principle." They promised the store would only provide "convenience, not advantage." I'm sorry, but I don't consider functionality that existed in the game suddenly became a "convenience."

And unless my memory is playing tricks with me, I'm 99% certain the ORIGINAL LI system that shipped with Moria ate your relics on a max level decon. I remember threads about people unslotting their relics at the last reforge, because they didn't want to apply and eventually lose them. Heck I remember doing that. Turbine then changed the system to return the relics one last time. I searched the patch notes and couldn't find this explicitly mentioned, all I found was a Moria patch that said they added a reminder that relics are returned when deconning a max level LI.

And it didn't occur to you that they changed this for a very good reason? Maybe because players were, in fact, unslotting relics so as to not lose them? And the devs realized that this was unfair to the players, who had spent many hours acquiring those relics?

Originally Posted by Beldacar

There is absolutely no good reason why they couldn't reduce the randomness of number of legacies, reduce the randomness of which legacies, reduce the randomness of which relics, and continue with recovering relics upon reforge and/or deconstruction at max level. None.

No, they could do that, and they could also just hand you a custom maxed out everything weapon with no work on your part except pushing a button. I take it you want the best of both systems: picking the relics you want to create, extracting and moving legacies, and getting relics back on a max level decon for free (scrolls available via skirmish marks)?

Originally Posted by Beldacar

No tears have been shed. But my faith in Turbine would be marginally restored if they put Scrolls of Removal on a skirmish vendor, yes. Call it a "matter of principle." They promised the store would only provide "convenience, not advantage." I'm sorry, but I don't consider functionality that existed in the game suddenly became a "convenience."

Well it wouldn't bother me if they made the unslots scrolls available in game somehow, via some large number of skirmish marks.

Originally Posted by Beldacar

And it didn't occur to you that they changed this for a very good reason? Maybe because players were, in fact, unslotting relics so as to not lose them? And the devs realized that this was unfair to the players, who had spent many hours acquiring those relics?

And didn't it occur to you that they changed it AGAIN FOR A VERY GOOD REASON? What about all the unfairness in the luck and randomness of even getting desired legacies on an LI? What about all that time spent identifying, leveling, and throwing away dozens and dozens of LIs just to get one that started OK and didn't pick up garbage through 3 reforges? Those hours are OK to throw away but the ones spent getting relics aren't, those hours are somehow different and extra precious?

Originally Posted by AlatarielCarnesir

No, they could do that, and they could also just hand you a custom maxed out everything weapon with no work on your part except pushing a button. I take it you want the best of both systems: picking the relics you want to create, extracting and moving legacies, and getting relics back on a max level decon for free (scrolls available via skirmish marks)?



Well it wouldn't bother me if they made the unslots scrolls available in game somehow, via some large number of skirmish marks.



And didn't it occur to you that they changed it AGAIN FOR A VERY GOOD REASON? What about all the unfairness in the luck and randomness of even getting desired legacies on an LI? What about all that time spent identifying, leveling, and throwing away dozens and dozens of LIs just to get one that started OK and didn't pick up garbage through 3 reforges? Those hours are OK to throw away but the ones spent getting relics aren't, those hours are somehow different and extra precious?

Yes. And the new "very good reason" is to drive business to the store. Which is a "very good reason" for them, but a "very bad reason" for me ;^)

And yes, it's OK to discard all the hours spent grinding for "legendary" items, because that's the way the system was designed and players knew that going in. If they chose to waste hours grinding for the "perfect" "legendary" item, that was their choice. Conversely, relics were not designed to be disposable. Players also knew that when choosing to engage in that particular grind.

Whether or not a particular item/upgrade is disposable is a core principle of a system. It is unwise to change a core principle in this fashion. Making relics disposable is not much different than making Virtues disposable. Sure, once you cap Melee Defense, you probably no longer need to slot the Zeal Virtue. But would you want it simply removed from your character panel after all the effort that went into maximizing it?

People are just too used to the old grind and don't really get how the new system works, so they are spazzing out about relics that used to be hard to get.

It is very fast and easy to get relics now, shards are easy to get, and you can get a decent amount from refining a crafted rune.

We now have less need to slot relics more then once, due to the changes in the LI's themselves which will mean less churn in LIs. You only need relics in LIs you are going to actually use, and most of the time you will probably make that determination as you as you ID it, and you probably won't ever change that LI unless you can move up from a Third Age to a Second Age or a First Age.

This is why they made it so you don't get the relics back, and so that you can use them for other things as well, because after a bit you are going to be swimming in them.

I will agree that putting the Relic Removal Scroll in the Store in addition to these changes is a money grab, but for a limited set of demo-graphics, the lazy, the stupid, the impatient, and the time constrained. As the great P.T. Barnum once said, there is a sucker born every minute.

Originally Posted by Reximus

People are just too used to the old grind and don't really get how the new system works, so they are spazzing out about relics that used to be hard to get.

It is very fast and easy to get relics now, shards are easy to get, and you can get a decent amount from refining a crafted rune.

We now have less need to slot relics more then once, due to the changes in the LI's themselves which will mean less churn in LIs. You only need relics in LIs you are going to actually use, and most of the time you will probably make that determination as you as you ID it, and you probably won't ever change that LI unless you can move up from a Third Age to a Second Age or a First Age.

This is why they made it so you don't get the relics back, and so that you can use them for other things as well, because after a bit you are going to be swimming in them.

I will agree that putting the Relic Removal Scroll in the Store in addition to these changes is a money grab, but for a limited set of demo-graphics, the lazy, the stupid, the impatient, and the time constrained. As the great P.T. Barnum once said, there is a sucker born every minute.

You left out one demographic there: players who already have the old T7 to T9 relics and are not willing to lose them. I fail to see how those players will, by default, fall into one of your insulting categories. But that's OK, insulting people who disagree with you is a fine way of accomplishing your objectives. I highly recommend you hone that strategy to a fine art. It will serve you well in life. You know, once you grow up, go out into the real world, get a job, etc.

It really is heart-warming to see today's youth developing long-term social interaction strategies....