Thread: Dev Diary Feedback: Update 2: The Battle for Moria: 2.5.5

Today Jonathan “Berephon” Rudder discusses the revamp of the Volume II Epic Story. Read more in his latest developer diary and join the post your comments here!

Next up, make the Angmar battle instances and the Battle of Lothlorien instance into skirmishes too (yes I know he mentioned them, doesn't mean I can't ask again)

The Iron Garrison is, in fact, doomed to fail in the end.

Interesting! Are we going to see this someday?

Great dev diary, and awesome job on the revamp of these battle instances. Please, please, please convert the Angmar Battles and the Battle of Lothlórien!

When I read about the Iron garrison being on the brink of failure, it made feel kind of sad. I'd imagined, the iron garrison would simply keep fighting until about two years after the end of the war of the ring they could declare final victory over the orcs of moria and full control of khaza-dûm.

So, like, everything players did in Volume II Books 1-8 was all for nothing? ^^

And are we going to see any of the process of being defeated by the orcs (who then must have a new leader to replace mazog) ingame?

PS: I support the idea of making battle of lorien and angmar battlegrounds into skirmishes as well, they are great fun to play right now already but would rock as skirmishes.

My thoughts on this have already been posted all over the place but I'll say it again, I enjoy these quite a bit as skirmishes and I really like the Dwarf encounter that I failed.

(No, there is no current plan to convert the Angmar Battles or the Battle of Lothlórien at this time.)

hahaha, I wonder where that came from...

There will be a new Moria Campaign Token, but the rewards themselves will be familiar to those who have run the Sage of Moria quests.

Ah, not in the Bullroarer build so I had no idea about these.

One thing I did not see in the Diary, that I'm sure is mentioned on the Bullroarer forums, is that these give daily rep.

Basically, the barter list from the Sage of Moria is being added to the Skirmish vendors with the Moria Campaign Token.

Someone remind me, what are the rewards currently on the Moria Sage that are being talked about?

Originally Posted by Tharondir

So, like, everything players did in Volume II Books 1-8 was all for nothing? ^^

We did protect Lothlorien from an assault by the Orcs of Moria (if only by weakening their forces a bit) and stymied Gorothul's efforts to conjure up the Nameless terror we defeat in 2.6.8 and again in 2.8.6. In so doing, we not only helped save Lorien (imagine the mess we would be in if Lorien had fallen), but also enabled the Elves to launch their sallies against Dol Goldur. This, in turn, helped divert the attention of the Lt of DG and Sauron from the much smaller band that was heading south at that same time.

You're welcome Frodo.

I had a chance to play through a couple of these on Bullroarer. Even before the V2 revamp had been announced, I was thinking these would make great skirmishes. I am glad Turbine took the time to work on getting these right.

Aside from a couple bumps (what does one do when an orc goes anti-exploit while attacking a barrier?) I really enjoyed playing through these. Then again, I also like the Gondamon skirmish and some in my kin think it is too much running around. (The dwarf skirmishes really like to keep you on your toes. )

If we aren't currently doing skirmishes (I have only done the intro to skirmishes) therefore haven't built up a soldier or any skirmish skills for our character, are we hosed as far as being able to complete these pieces of the Book 2 epic?

Originally Posted by BentoIce

If we aren't currently doing skirmishes (I have only done the intro to skirmishes) therefore haven't built up a soldier or any skirmish skills for our character, are we hosed as far as being able to complete these pieces of the Book 2 epic?

I'm not on Bullroarer but I'll throw out two tidbits:

1. With most skirmishes now, assuming you do them at tier 1 and at-level, most people could probably complete them pretty easily without any soldier at all. Since Berephon made clear that for the quest you can do them at-level, even as a lvl 55, I would think that you would be all set.

2. If you are really worried about it, I would suggest doing a few skirmishes right now and get a soldier built up just a bit. The way skirmish soldiers & soldier skills work is that the early levels take a minimum of skirmish marks (especially as a higher level player) so if you run just a couple easy solo skirmishes you will easily have enough skirm marks to have a halfway-decently developed soldier. If you are unsure what class to pick, you really can't go wrong with an herbalist as extra healing & power are nice for anyone. I know as a lvl 65 player, running one solo skirmish on easiest (Tier 1) difficulty will net somewhere around 250-300 skirmish marks. Do that 2-3 times, which will take you an hour or maybe 90 minutes tops, and you have yourself a reasonably built up herbalist (or whatever soldier class you choose). And there is really no need to build up the skirmish skills for yourself personally; they are a bit of nice icing on the cake but in the big picture not a huge deal at all.

Originally Posted by Thornglen

Aside from a couple bumps (what does one do when an orc goes anti-exploit while attacking a barrier?)

I had that happen once the other day in 21st at the Eastern Barricade. I'm not sure if he fixed himself or it was my setting a trap on top of him that did it, but after about a minute or less he was fixed and then quickly killed.

Originally Posted by BentoIce

If we aren't currently doing skirmishes (I have only done the intro to skirmishes) therefore haven't built up a soldier or any skirmish skills for our character, are we hosed as far as being able to complete these pieces of the Book 2 epic?

If you are doing these on solo with a low level skirmish soldier, you will probably have some difficulty. (Well, I certainly would, anyway. I'm sure there are many who are better players than I am, though. )

That said, I have taken high level characters who had never gotten the skirmish soldier before and within a week or so of dungeons, low level skirmishes, etc, had everything set to take on-level challenges. It will be good to have the soldier ready in any case, since the Mirkwood part of the epic already uses skirmishes and I'd imagine the trend will continue as it makes the future Books more easily scaled.

I have currently completed the 21st hall and Way of Smiths instances on live. I ran the Deep Way skirm on BR, at the lowest possible level (just to test). It was much, much easier.

The only warning I would give is that the space is a bit tight, and that could cause issues on the encounters. In some areas, it is very easy to accidentally AOE the encounter MoBs.

Other than that, I enjoyed the skirm and wil try the other two as soon as possible.

BTW, if you’ve completed some of 2.5.5 prior to the update, you won’t have to run those instances again. However, you will have to speak with The quest giver at the Chamber of the Crossroads and pick up the quests again. You can do this after running the instances.

So if we have done smiths and 21st hall but not deepway we won't need to repeat that one but can if we want to?

Originally Posted by ScionofAngmar

We did protect Lothlorien from an assault by the Orcs of Moria (if only by weakening their forces a bit) and stymied Gorothul's efforts to conjure up the Nameless terror we defeat in 2.6.8 and again in 2.8.6. In so doing, we not only helped save Lorien (imagine the mess we would be in if Lorien had fallen), but also enabled the Elves to launch their sallies against Dol Goldur. This, in turn, helped divert the attention of the Lt of DG and Sauron from the much smaller band that was heading south at that same time.

You're welcome Frodo.

Furthermore, Mazog mentions when we first capture him that Moria soon won't be fit for ruling, hinting that the nameless might take over the place completely (which we manage to stop). Even if the current expedition will fail, our efforts to vanquish the nameless and the Mistress, could be what allows the next expedition, lead by Durin himself, to succeed.

I'm very excited for this change. The current selection of skirmished have been getting stale and I've always enjoyed these instances.

Despite what Berephon said, I want Angmar and Lorien Battle skirmishes! Please put them on your radar!

BTW, what is the token for?

Great work! I also agree that Battle of Lorien and the Angmar instances would be great skirms whenever you can fit it in!

I only have one thing to say.

Originally Posted by Berephon

(No, there is no current plan to convert the Angmar Battles or the Battle of Lothlórien at this time.)

You make me very, very, -Very- sad, Berephon. After all the time that various people have spent campaigning for those battle instances to be converted, and now a pass converting some battle instances over... this makes me so sad I can't really put adequate words to it.

-Niara

I choose to believe that while the Iron Garrison fails it doesn't end badly for them.

All the nasty things we killed off together, ultimately left the evils of moria substantially weakened. After the War with Sauron was over, high and mighty noble family dwarves showed up knocking at the door to come claim their ancestral privileges.

So Bori and Oinky and Pinky sat down one evening and decided that they'd rather just go home to the Iron mountains, with a vast assortment of found wealth, and leave the now Namesless Horrorless mostly orc free halls for their soft noble cousins come to claim the spoils after the fighting was over. And on the way out they faked their deaths.

Bori and Broiler and Boinky all end their days back at Thorins in the pub, wearing fine dwarf robes drinking the best ales, and telling tall tales to anyone that will listen of just how often they had to step in and save me from terrible terrible things.

And if you don't believe me, the you can GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET out, cause clearly you're racist and fundamentally hate dwarves because of how Aule made them. Wrong he made them, yes, I admit, but they can't help it.

Thanks for the dev diary on these. I had a chance to run Deep Way on BR and thought it was a lot of fun. I too had a mob anti-exploit on a barrier. After sitting there staring at each other for about 2 minutes while I was trying to write up a bug report, the orc decided to target and attack me.

I definitely like that this will make the instances more accessible to everyone. I was fortunate enough to get through them on my main when Moria launched. My first alt, however, took over a week of spamming GLFF and pleading with Kin members. Then I was only getting a group that only needed or had time for 1 of the 3 instances. Getting the 3rd instances completed was quite exhausting. I never even attempted to get groups for my other alts.

I too would like to support the idea of eventually making Angmar and Lorien battle instances into skirmishes. I've not even ran the Lorien instance even once. I always welcome more variety to make grinding SM less repetitive.

I always just figured the Iron Garrison expedition was defeated by economics, not orcs. It simply isn't sustainable for such a small number of dwarves to fully control Khazad-dum at this time, not without losing money, and dwarves *hate* to lose money. So they voluntarily pull out.

A couple of years later, Sauron is vanquished, Gondor is growing in strength and the North Kingdom is being "recivilized," could be a different story and worth another try.

Originally Posted by Mandella

I always just figured the Iron Garrison expedition was defeated by economics, not orcs. It simply isn't sustainable for such a small number of dwarves to fully control Khazad-dum at this time, not without losing money, and dwarves *hate* to lose money. So they voluntarily pull out.

A couple of years later, Sauron is vanquished, Gondor is growing in strength and the North Kingdom is being "recivilized," could be a different story and worth another try.

Interesting thought. My first thought was that, if they survive, maybe they left Moria because they were called back to Erebor (as that is where the Iron Garrison originally came from) as reinforcements for the upcoming battles that will take place there.

Or, alternatively, I just don't want to think of them all dying horribly after everything they, and I, have been through. It is tough enough having to ride south with the Grey Company, knowing that so many of them will die before we get to Rohan, and that Halbarad won't survive the battle at the Fields of Pelennor.

Originally Posted by garetjax8

So if we have done smiths and 21st hall but not deepway we won't need to repeat that one but can if we want to?

No. But you will have to go back to the quest giver, talk to him, and pick up the quests again. You should get immediate credit for anything you've already done.

I was in your exact situation when I copied my main to Bullroarer. I then ran the Deep Way skirm successfully. Once I spoke with bregur, everything disappeared from my quest tracker, but when I spoke with the guy in the Chamber of Crossroads, I got credit for all three and was able to move on to II.6.

Looking forward to these..hooray for fun AND doable.

Definitely looking forward to this, even though I've finished the Vol 2 epic already. Battle of the 21st Hall may be my favorite instance in the entire game, so getting a soloable, scalable version of it so I can run it whenever I like makes me happy. I'm very glad you decided to keep all the retreats intact, because that was really what made it fun (The wonderful feeling of doom that comes over you at the end, remembering the Ori session play and the Fellowship's experience is a highlight of the game).

I do hope you'll consider converting the Angmar and Lorien battles into skirmishes. The skirmish system badly needs more skirmishes to stay fresh, and these are a natural fit. I assume it's less work to convert a battle into a skirmish than to create a new skirmish, even if all you're saving is the creative effort to come up with a skirmish scenario and gimmick.

While the change of Book II to solo option and the addition of 3 new repeatable skirmishes is great by itself, one thing caught my attention:

The Iron Garrison is, in fact, doomed to fail in the end.

Wow, that definitely puts a new perspective on the things. I was under assumption that since you let those Dwarves in the mines days after Fellowship have passes and allowed them to stay there for weeks (as indicated by several NPC in quest bestowal dialogue), this will be rather permanent. I now have concerns for the ultimate fate of many of those Dwaves... Well, at least they seem to have cleared most major threats and control both west and east gates. Maybe when Lothlorien is attacked in full, they'll be forced to abandon mines and go help the Elves defend it, who knows.

Thank you!

Moria was only successfully recolonized by Durin the Last sometime in the 4th age. The 4th age only started after Frodo and the rest of the ring bearers left middle earth. Thus it was at a very minumum 2 years after the end of the war. Probably about 70-100 as Durin was most likely born in the 4th age, and he needed a few decades to mature and gather his peoples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Arda#3020-21

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durin_VII#Durin_VII

I join the rising chorus to say, "We want the Angmar and Lorien battles to be made into skirmishes!"

Really surprising that more has not been done with the skirmish system since its introduction.

Looking forward to running 2.5.5 as a skirmish. Might be a fun alternative raid night idea, now that there's a 12-man skirmy.

I like the "gentle adjustments" outlined in the Dev Diary as well.

I'd vote for a Lorien and Angmar skirmish conversion. Would be fun to relive those adventures too.

Originally Posted by BentoIce

If we aren't currently doing skirmishes (I have only done the intro to skirmishes) therefore haven't built up a soldier or any skirmish skills for our character, are we hosed as far as being able to complete these pieces of the Book 2 epic?

There is one thing that will help those without trained soldiers: the banners. The banners aren't really needed in the solo setting so they can add quite a boost to someone with an under-trained soldier.

While it's nice to finally get some new skirmishes after a year and a half, what's not so good is that they have been story gated.

I don't get what the deal is with all the gating in this game - is it so terrible to let people do whatever they want?

And yes, the Moria epic is now supposed to be soloable, but that was true for Book 1, which wasn't the case for me. So I really doubt I'll be able to do the quests to even get to these skirmishes, just like was the case with the Mirkwood 65 skirmishes

Originally Posted by trancejeremy

I don't get what the deal is with all the gating in this game - is it so terrible to let people do whatever they want?

In many cases, it's better for the GM to force the players to do something they hadn't intended, because the GM knows it will be better than what "local maximum" the player can conceive.

Happens all the time in paper and pencil.

Yay for this !

I wonder if there would be iron garrison rep awarded for this skirmish, as it it is for other factions when completing skirmishes in those zones ? It could be an enjoyable way to gain some.

While I can understand why the Iron Garrison, could not be completely successful in clearing Moria before Durin the last's expedition would be 'lore breaking' the comes from one of the least detailed parts of the lore.

There are several possibilities, and at least one implies partial success for the Iron Garrison.

The gates of Minas Tirith where to be rebuilt with Mithril after the war, no fixed date is given but it had to be soon enough to be written into the Red Book by someone who might have cared about such a thing. Sam most likely. We already know there are no great storage of Mithril anywhere in Arda so its likely that Mithril came from Moria.

Now I can imagine the Iron Garrison holding out for many years, perhaps mostly on the western side (less infested parts) of Moria staring up sufficient Mithril mineing to forge new gates to Minas Tirith, to but not able to push the Goblins out completely until re-enforced some years later by Durin. In the manor that Dain Ironfoot came to help Thorin in the battle of 5 armies, and ended up as ruler of the Lonely Mountain. Durin becomes the new ruler of Moria and gets the full credit in the thumbnail history that gets recorded later.