I'm not seeing anything close to a "wholesale" rip-off of someone else's IP or ideas. I am seeing well-developed proposals and concepts for modifications to a system that has been around in MMOs in general for a very, very long time. The fact that some of these things are similar is the nature of the beast, not necessarily due to ripping anyone's ideas off.
What we experience all around us weaves its way into everything we do. The OP has played a lot of LotRO. Maybe he has played other MMOs, maybe not. Some features he likes, some he does not like, some he thinks would be better if they were made this way or that way. Just like anyone else.
Sometimes when people are all thinking about the same thing, they come up with solutions that are very, very similar to each other's. They do not have to know anything about the other creator. They do not even need to know this person exists. They are both working towards a "perfect" solution. There are bound to be similarities.
For Ota, the most remarkable thing was not that his design won but how similar his design was to the Soviets'. They, too, had submitted a figure of a man running out a door. He was amazed that two design teams, working independently, would develop such similar concepts, and the coincidence convinced him of the essential rightness of the running man. He came to believe he had designed not just Yukio Ota's exit sign, not just a Japanese exit sign, but a fundamentally human exit sign, one that speaks to some primal cognitive notion of escape.
Also, the similarity to WH is small at best. It's also similar ro PWI. It's also similar to WoW. They all have some things the same, because they're good ideas. They all have some things different, because they're different games. I did not see a wholesale copy. There are hundreds of MMOs out there. The odds of two of them having remarkably similar ideas is inevitable. The odds of a fan making a big QQ because it's a "rip-off" is inevitable.
Personally, it's not similar enough to warrant a "QQ rip-off" attack, but if we did remove some of the "rip-off" it would lose some awesome. There's a reason a lot of MMOs use a similar guild system: It works.
But like the guy who pretty much drew maps and figured out level ranges for all of Middle Earth, I suspect Turbine has zero interest in listening and/or using any of it, even though it would probably help the game.
Well I am more than happy to talk to the devs from Warhammer about this, they themselves will be able to see that I have never had an account with them. You were asked by many posters here to supply proof that I stole these ideas yet you can't. Why? Because your claims are nothing but a personal attack on me which I should really take further for defamation.
I have explained my reasons for this design and I see no reason for someone to think them inpossible. As many have already stated, most MMOs have almost identical systems in one way or another, and this is no different.
As for me replying to your messages, the more you accuse and continue to harass me the more I feel I need to defend myself.
Based on the feedback and suggestions so far I have made a couple of changes to the blessing system in the original post..
As some pointed out the banner system was too focussed on busy kins that do a lot of instances, so I added a personal blessing system as well so the kin can decide which route they want to take. The banners will remain for groups who need a little help in combat. The personal blessings will be traited and will offer alternative benefits for out of combat, such as increased run speed, XP, map CDs etc.
The revised blessing window:
Revised trait window:
New blessing display in trait window:
and finally the blessings:
This information is better described on the first page..
Based on the feedback and suggestions so far I have made a couple of changes to the blessing system in the original post..
As some pointed out the banner system was too focussed on busy kins that do a lot of instances, so I added a personal blessing system as well so the kin can decide which route they want to take. The banners will remain for groups who need a little help in combat. The personal blessings will be traited and will offer alternative benefits for out of combat, such as increased run speed, XP, map CDs etc.
Glad you took my traiting advice. Like the BLESSINGS name. And of course, your graphics really bring the ideas to life.
Kudos.
I hope Turbine is listening. I hope they hire a few new developers, and set one specifically on a kinship revamp.
I like everything that does not exist in-game yet. Things that are obtainable already (destiny points/store, through crafting) might be more problematic, does it stack, will it effect economy. I also doubt that Turbine will like to put those in when they are selling it?
Will non-kinshipmembers feel nerfed if it's too powerful?
Crafting-crit, will it effect the crafted tools? Is it needed? What is the typical crit chance at end game with the best tool and mastery components?
Craft-speed, great idea, I can't think of anything negative.
Mount Speed, I though I read it was capped... so unless that's old news might not work. Not that I won't like to have it! I can imagine this as being perceived too powerful and see the uproar.
Faction Rep, this is where I can see it the most, maybe reduced destiny costs (not talking about monster play, don't know enough about that), another rebate for vendor costs, perhaps even a skirmish discount? Not too powerful but still enough incentive.
My 2 copper, can't totally concentrate on it right now, hope it makes sense.
Rouven* – official representative** of the silentU majorityUU for 130 years¸
I can see that a lot of work has been put into this proposal, and I applaud your effort to get more meaningful kinship content.
However, I think we can learn a few things by looking at how Turbine approached expanding guild (kin) functionality in DDO.
Most importantly, nothing was permanent. You had to continuously put work into the guild in order to keep guild level up. This is a powerful mechanism to keep people engaged (or continuously grinding for the more cynical) and also keeps from having the age of the kin being one of the primary determinants of level. The granting of buffs was also temporary in that you needed to buy 'items' to get the buffs, and they had limited durations (7 - 30 days). Turbine also made money off the items in that they were buyable with both in-game currency and TP. Finally, the buffs themselves had limited duration - that worked reasonably well in DDO, where adventuring was all out of a central hub, but might not translate well to LOTRO, where travel distances can get significant (although the inclusion of multi-map capability, combined with kin ports and port cooldown enhancements would substantially reduce that effect.)
I think the proposal here has a lot of merit, but I think Turbine is more likely to build something along DDO lines - with temporary buffs, store integration, and some sort of decay to keep people engaged in building up their kins.
I'd like to see you explore the "debuff as buff" thing a bit more, especially for kinships where players wanting to group, but not have the content get blown away by an overleveled member. I'd like to see something like "Sets Maximum Level for All Fellowship Members to X." How that's implemented, I don't know. We've been over that in other threads. Do they bar skills? Reverse Inspired Greatness? Who knows. But it would be a huge reason for me to look at Kinships more favourably than I do now (which is, in general, that it is not a feature I really care about). Not any Kinship, mind you, but more the concept of Kinships in general.
Player Scaling controls or other means of evening out groups with members of widely disparate levels would prompt me to even consider starting and running my own Kinship.
I'd like to see you explore the "debuff as buff" thing a bit more, especially for kinships where players wanting to group, but not have the content get blown away by an overleveled member. I'd like to see something like "Sets Maximum Level for All Fellowship Members to X." How that's implemented, I don't know. We've been over that in other threads. Do they bar skills? Reverse Inspired Greatness? Who knows. But it would be a huge reason for me to look at Kinships more favourably than I do now (which is, in general, that it is not a feature I really care about). Not any Kinship, mind you, but more the concept of Kinships in general.
Player Scaling controls or other means of evening out groups with members of widely disparate levels would prompt me to even consider starting and running my own Kinship.
Are you thinking of a mentoring system like Everquest II had? Never played it myself but heard about it. People in Aion asked for something like that.
Rouven* – official representative** of the silentU majorityUU for 130 years¸
Crafting-crit, will it effect the crafted tools? Is it needed? What is the typical crit chance at end game with the best tool and mastery components?
It's not really needed to be honest.. But it is something that might help some people out. The way I considered this was that most of the craftable items that are used more frequently can be crafted with a 100% crit rate through guilds anyway. So a slight increase in crit rate for non guild recipes shouldn't make much difference.
Originally Posted by Rouven
Craft-speed, great idea, I can't think of anything negative.
Thank you, this one would be great.. One thing that really irritates me with crafting is how long it takes to execute a recipe. It's not so bad when you're crafting a few things, but when you have a lot I just wish it would go faster.
Originally Posted by Rouven
Mount Speed, I though I read it was capped... so unless that's old news might not work. Not that I won't like to have it! I can imagine this as being perceived too powerful and see the uproar.
I'm not sure about this one to be honest, it would be nice, but it would probably cause some problems.. Though they could always add something similar to the store.
Originally Posted by Rouven
Faction Rep, this is where I can see it the most, maybe reduced destiny costs (not talking about monster play, don't know enough about that), another rebate for vendor costs, perhaps even a skirmish discount? Not too powerful but still enough incentive.
I think players would like these ideas you mentioned.
Originally Posted by Sardonyx
I can see that a lot of work has been put into this proposal, and I applaud your effort to get more meaningful kinship content.
However, I think we can learn a few things by looking at how Turbine approached expanding guild (kin) functionality in DDO.
Most importantly, nothing was permanent. You had to continuously put work into the guild in order to keep guild level up. This is a powerful mechanism to keep people engaged (or continuously grinding for the more cynical) and also keeps from having the age of the kin being one of the primary determinants of level. The granting of buffs was also temporary in that you needed to buy 'items' to get the buffs, and they had limited durations (7 - 30 days). Turbine also made money off the items in that they were buyable with both in-game currency and TP. Finally, the buffs themselves had limited duration - that worked reasonably well in DDO, where adventuring was all out of a central hub, but might not translate well to LOTRO, where travel distances can get significant (although the inclusion of multi-map capability, combined with kin ports and port cooldown enhancements would substantially reduce that effect.)
I think the proposal here has a lot of merit, but I think Turbine is more likely to build something along DDO lines - with temporary buffs, store integration, and some sort of decay to keep people engaged in building up their kins.
I've never played DDO if I'm honest so I'm not sure how the kin system works there.. However I do find it encouraging to here that they revamped the kin system. To be honest, even if they follow that route I think people would be happier.
Originally Posted by dubsyubsy
I'd like to see you explore the "debuff as buff" thing a bit more, especially for kinships where players wanting to group, but not have the content get blown away by an overleveled member. I'd like to see something like "Sets Maximum Level for All Fellowship Members to X." How that's implemented, I don't know. We've been over that in other threads. Do they bar skills? Reverse Inspired Greatness? Who knows. But it would be a huge reason for me to look at Kinships more favourably than I do now (which is, in general, that it is not a feature I really care about). Not any Kinship, mind you, but more the concept of Kinships in general.
Player Scaling controls or other means of evening out groups with members of widely disparate levels would prompt me to even consider starting and running my own Kinship.
This would be a good idea, but I think that would probably come under something else. Perhaps they could design a set of group instances that are similar to session plays where everyone enters at the same level? I think this would probably be more achievable?
Changed the ranks window a bit to allow for customisation of the rank name, and the title that the character will display if they select it. This was based on feedback given in this thread to allow players to devise their own kin themes. Also thought a button to disable certain ranks might be handy for kins that don't need or want the extra ranks.
Actually he should submit the Warhammer Online Devs resume since the whole thing is almost an exact copy of their system.
I don't believe that one bit, given your idea is almost an exact replica of their system. There is no way you could have come that exact to theirs randomly. And its not just one part of it, but almost ALL of what you've posted. That much similarity is not even close to random. From the standards to the admin screen. Shame on you claiming it as your own.
Changed the ranks window a bit to allow for customisation of the rank name, and the title that the character will display if they select it. This was based on feedback given in this thread to allow players to devise their own kin themes. Also thought a button to disable certain ranks might be handy for kins that don't need or want the extra ranks.
Just noticed this - should successor be within the ranks? I imagine a successor being a chief officer in this example and all it does is promote him to leader once he resigns.
I really like the individual permissions for the chests.
Rouven* – official representative** of the silentU majorityUU for 130 years¸
This would be a good idea, but I think that would probably come under something else. Perhaps they could design a set of group instances that are similar to session plays where everyone enters at the same level? I think this would probably be more achievable?
Session play is all well and good, but since it lacks that element of "this is my character," having that be the only way people can group with friends of different levels without being totally unbalanced would be a failure. Sometimes you want that level 65 along in GA, you just want to finish the quests, you've been LFF for two weeks with no bites, etc. But other times (for me, most all the time), you want a group that is near enough your level to have it be an actual challenge to go through the content without wiping over and over.
why the hell havent they done this yet? my god i wish i could filter options and give certain permissions on a person by person basis, this all fo this should be taken up turbine should hire you and make you there kinship desighn god, there doin a ?????? job with it as it is, wonder where teh monkey in the suit is on this one?
I discussed this yesterday with my kinship leader (I am the co-leader /successor) and we both agreed that this is an excellent suggestion, and that we would really like to see this put live.
I was talking with one of the devs at the Turbine PAX party last week. He confirmed that they are developing some significant stuff for kinships. That's all I got; no details or time-frame, but hopefully it's coming!
I was talking with one of the devs at the Turbine PAX party last week. He confirmed that they are developing some significant stuff for kinships. That's all I got; no details or time-frame, but hopefully it's coming!
I do hope you are right
Got some more stuff towards this I've been working on which I will post later tonight or tomorrow.
I was talking with one of the devs at the Turbine PAX party last week. He confirmed that they are developing some significant stuff for kinships. That's all I got; no details or time-frame, but hopefully it's coming!
Nice to know, thanks for sharing!
Rouven* – official representative** of the silentU majorityUU for 130 years¸
In these threads there are three things being asked for that I haven't included up until now.. Those are 1) an alliance system; 2) kinship cosmetics; and 3) an in-game calendar.
Alliance:
Here you can create an alliance with up to three participating kinships. To set up an alliance one kin leader will need to invite a second kin leader, this originating kin leader will then become alliance leader and will be the only one who can invite a third kin, as well as disband the alliance. However all kins are able to leave the alliance any time they chose.
The kins will also have access to a shared 'official' alliance channel rather than needing to use a custom made channel that anyone could access.
Leaders can also nominate up to three alliance officers who will also be able to set the messages on the notice board as well as create shared events on the calendar.
Calendar:
This will allow kins without a forum to plan events in advance and coordinate sign ups. If the kin is in an alliance the alliance officers will be able to select when creating a new event if they want it to be shared. If the event is shared it is automatically added to the other kins calendar so they too can sign up.
Players can view who has signed up so far by clicking a raid and then the view button.
Cosmetics:
Here ranks with the appropriate permissions will be able to create a guild outfit. This outfit will be available from a new button added to the character cosmetics window.
Kins will be able to create different looks for each rank in the kin, if they chose they can also have each rank the same by setting a look first for one rank and then copying it to the others.
I also put a wardrobe in, this would be a great way for players to share a cosmetic to those with the permissions to set the outfit. Also for kin deeds that have cosmetic rewards they can be added to the wardrobe without needing to go to a specific player.
Deeds:
Whilst the quests will offer medallions to rank up blessings, deeds will offer titles and cosmetics for the kin to use.
Though some numbers will seem high, each person in a group will add one per advancement, meaning a raid of 12 players would advance a deed +12, one for each person.
big thumbs up plus rep!
Great work very impressive and love the idea Hopefully it will get implemented DEVS PLEASE TAKE NOTE Kins really need this!
well done!
Hey ho to the bottle i go, to heal my heart and drown my woe.....
Morvathir 65 Guardian (Rank 7), Morcallor 65 Craptain (Rank 0.5), other toons unworthy of mention. Slavetothebum R4 Reaver, Bummagic R2, other toons unworthy of mention cause they have not done the rite of initiation.
You have taken the cosmetic feature farther than what I was thinking, very nice.
And you added one "Add more space" button for authenticity
I think the calendar is so cool, we should all have one - complete/updated with the information of the "forum calendar". Could add an "alarm" feature to it.
Imagine reading the alarm message with that typical smooth robot voice: "Rouven, Raid in 15 minutes, please repair you stuff, look at you. And please stack up on your food. Thank you."
Or perhaps more the Tom-style: "Hey dol Rouven dol, ring a dong raid dol. Don't forget your sword my heartsy!"
Rouven* – official representative** of the silentU majorityUU for 130 years¸
great ideas great effort and great grahpics but one question/suggestion(lol rhyme) will officers and leader be able to make deeds, quests and cosmetics to reward those who help the kin? for example the leader or officers could set the type of deed/quest (exploration, do epic # of times, kill these # of times, collect this for kinny bank) and the reward would depend on the scope of the thing(kill 5 caveclaws means - 300 tokens, kill 5 balrogs means + 250 tokens)
and for cosmetics officer choose most artistic to be the kins herald and he makes a kin logo and other drawing that drag and drop onto all cosmetics also can use already made in-game drawings if a kinny donates(ex. if kinnies gather 5 flames of deep in bank herald can use that design and combine it) also you could choose coulors
and last more versatile ranks is perfect like raid marshall who has unique ability to schedle raid and herald who make armour and cosmetics, and crafter who (you can guess)
lore-masters are like wolves, alone we're pretty great but in a pack...
This is amazing!
Turbine would be wise to hire a crack team of Devs to work on some of these ideas ASAP.
Some of them seem to be a bit OP (certain Blessings and Banner Buffs for instance), but overall, this fantastic.
The only difficulty I can see in this is that there will be fewer PUG runs, but it can be tweaked.
Great job on this.
When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade - make life take the lemons back! Get mad!Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm going to to get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!
You've managed to show pics & ideas in a short span of time than Turbine could do in 2 years!! Bravo!!
Reminds me of Wow's system, but their guild system (as they are called) is so far more advanced than Lotro's.
Why?
They have in place that for anything you kill, you get money and depending on how much and the level, a small portion goes towards the Guild's money account - which in turn you can repair your gear for next to nothing & it does not come OUT OF YOUR personal toon account.
Everything you suggest is already a part of Wow and it does work and very, very smoothly. The kins here on Lotro basically have nothing to offer other than help, making mats, etc. Seriously, why need a kin house? How often do people really use it? Ditch the houses & create a Kin vault (again, look at WoW) and use that for storage for items that kin members can take with certain permissions in place depending on your kin level.
I like your idea's, but have to say, WoW definately has a better system in place.
exactly Eve online is alot like this as well. while im a fan of many mmo's and while other mmo's are other mmo's i see no reason why they couldent induct a kin wallet, with multiple divisions involved, a setup for automatic bill payments like kinhouse.
I would also like to see the ability to give certain roles on a per officer basis, with teh option to default a role untill updated. I think that a kinleader, should and would benifet from allowing his succesor to take care of officer promotions if needed. or to have a group of kinsmen who have teh ability to recruit.
Who cares how the additions get used, all im saying is, what the hell turbine? it works in your other games, you must have the ability to implement it. yet you still focus on trivial problems, and as prrof with the new update, end up causing more problems. Focus Focus Focus. LOTRO is by far one of teh most beautiful MMORPGS i have ever seen, but Turbine has yet to allow players the controll that they deserve. if they were to open up controll of certain aspects and allow players to improvise and create there own use for them. then this game would be so much more player friendly.
Probably the most polished and well put together suggestion I've seen in any game I've played - many bonus points. You have taken all of the good guild funtionality of games such as WAR, DAOC, EQ2 and RIFT and combined them here in a manner which is well organised and customised to be appropriate to LOTRO. Great job - Turbine should adopt this suggestion with all of the well put together UI elements asap.
An addition I'd make would be Kin storage space which can be accessed via the normal bankers. Some kins may not want to get a kin house because, lets face it, LOTRO housing needs a major revamp to make it more attractive. So instead of having to pay out gold and hunt for an empty house just to get the storage chests perhaps kins can alternately buy storage space via the standard bank. For those with a kin house this could also be an extension of the kin chests to provide both extra space plus remote access to the chests.
Also good would be if the 'blessings' could include things other than combat or stat related things. e.g increased chance to crit during crafting.
Last edited by Derkallah; Mar 24 2011 at 04:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by Galuhad
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