Thread: Dev Diary Feedback: Update 2: Ost Dunhoth Raid Dev Diary

Today Joe “jwbarry” Barry discusses the new raid coming in Update 2. Read more about Ost Dunhoth and join post your comments here!

oeh, epic drops

going to play rk again and ninja the cloak :P

I've talked at length about this raid so I'll just echo one universal comment. If the loot isn't there, its all for nothing.

Three years later people still talk about Jewelled bell, Wig-Feld, ect. For the next couple years, people are going to be talking about this raid and THIS SWORD!!

This is the single best piece of loot in the game ever. Champs, Hunters, Burgs are going to go crazy for this thing.



So is this new? Is this in the loot table we have on BR now? Or has the loot table changed in a local build and we've just not seen it yet?

*Pls add morale to the cloak*
*Best tank neck in the game*

Gotta say, I love how you guys defused the "all the loot is useless!" complaints. Those 3 pieces alone are great reasons to run the raid, even if you don't want the raid set.

The skill reset is a great, great idea. So much more fun than taking a 15-minute break after every wipe. Also, removing randomness (*cough*Durchestcrits*cough*) is good.

One question: Why the anti-CC measures? I thought most of the complaints with recent content has been that it devalues CC and alternative methods of attacking problems, because stacking AoE DPS is so much more efficient? I was hoping for different threat and damage mechanics to discourage DPS-fests on trash, rather than anti-CC measures. But then, I'm still hoping a general tanking/threat overhaul will come with a Guardian/Warden update, so I can forgive you for not going there just now. But still, why the anti-CC? Just to prevent (devalue?) chain mezzing? As someone with a Burg alt, Anger is kinda discouraging...

With morale, the cloak would be overpowered i guess - Morale stacking isn't the way to go anymore i think, if i see the sets/items that drop, and why should it be, if you don't have aggro, you won't have too much incoming damage

It's a must-have on my mincy now

I guess it isn't anti-CC, but more pro-CC, if they have to be CC-ed because of what they do, now you need to have more CC with you and people have to be focussed on it more instead of: Player A, you do all the CC, all the others, just DPS/heal/tank

"There are three new systemic upgrades we're trying out in this raid – Difficulty Tiers, Automatic Raid Markings, and Class Skill Cooldown Resets."

Tier 2 mechanics look interesting, automatic marking will be wonderful, and thank you so much for the class skill cooldown reset (glares at FH). Oh I bet I can take -rally cooldown off my raiding dagger now for something else!

I can't wait to start working through all this! My raid leader is not going to be happy that someone else will have her moon icon though...

Oh Em Gee!! You forgot to say "::SPOILER ALERT::"
Now the entire game is spoiled.
*angry customer who hasn't ran the books in Enedwaith yet because he is too busy fighting freeps in the Ettenmoors*

::EDIT::
Wow who designed that sword? This is the most epic clicky item ever seen since Forgotten Treasury. Next best clicky I would say comes from those Everswim quests.

This brings happy thoughts; maybe this game can turn a new leaf *tears of joy*

Not a big fan of instances where everything is "timed". Don't like the "You swung your sword 3/10ths of a second too late, therefore your entire raid wiped because of it." That's not a challenge to me. Once you've completed the raid for the first time, it boils down to nothing but mashing the right buttons at the right time after that. Again, not a challenge, that's called a "grind".

A challenge is when the fight is different every time.

Not sure if anyone remembers Space Ace or Dragons Lair, but that's what these raids are turning in to. Just watch for the light, and move your keyboard/game controller in that direction and you'll finish the raid. 3/10ths of a second late, and you're dead.

P.S. I've been hit...by the Infanto Ray!

Yeah, considering he mentioned that the trash fights will have an inherent strategy for success built into them, I imagine Anger and Bloodlust will play an important part in some of those.

Question concerning the raid locks: Are we only going to be able to run this once a week? I don't remember what the cooldown on BG is but that seems kinda long.

So Anger is a one-time CC protection?

Hmm, so I only have to use LotRD first and then BF second.. doesn't change much. But at least CC is important again.


The cloak is the one that was supposed to let the tactical classes drop their jars? It has ZERO morale and ZERO power. I'd rather take the 200 morale from Saelchol than this one.

Originally Posted by grinko.at

So Anger is a one-time CC protection?

Hmm, so I only have to use LotRD first and then BF second.. doesn't change much. But at least CC is important again.


The cloak is the one that was supposed to let the tactical classes drop their jars? It has ZERO morale and ZERO power. I'd rather take the 200 morale from Saelchol than this one.

No, Anger reappears. I think the cooldown is 50 seconds, but dont quote me on that.

Originally Posted by Elderban

Not a big fan of instances where everything is "timed". Don't like the "You swung your sword 3/10ths of a second too late, therefore your entire raid wiped because of it." That's not a challenge to me. Once you've completed the raid for the first time, it boils down to nothing but mashing the right buttons at the right time after that. Again, not a challenge, that's called a "grind".

A challenge is when the fight is different every time.

Not sure if anyone remembers Space Ace or Dragons Lair, but that's what these raids are turning in to. Just watch for the light, and move your keyboard/game controller in that direction and you'll finish the raid. 3/10ths of a second late, and you're dead.

P.S. I've been hit...by the Infanto Ray!

I don't think the focus was so much on perfection to that level, but rather that the encounter is judged by your performance, raid awareness, and mechanics knowledge - as opposed to a wipe mostly if not entirely dictated by the RNG. The randomness of what you're fighting, or even when a mob casts a random spell is a good thing, as it keeps players on their toes. However when there is little or nothing a raid can do to prevent a wipe, because the boss decides to randomly one-shot a healer, that is simply unfair.

Originally Posted by Elderban

A challenge is when the fight is different every time.

This is what I've been saying since day one. Scripts need to be random in order to keep a raid fresh. "Whoa I've never seen that happen before" on your 10th run in conjunction with good loot drops will make players want to run it however often they can.

Even if these changes aren't the best in our opinions, I am glad the developers are trying bigger and better things every time they release content.
New mechanics >>> same old, same old.

I love the class cooldown resets. It was horrible wiping on a raid and having used all our rezzes, fellowship's heart, Last Stand and so forth. We'd have to sit around for 20-30 minutes waiting for them to reset or attempt the boss while handicapped. Absolutely brilliant idea to reset these on wipes, etc.

Everything else sounds good too, and I like the loot. Can't wait to give OD a go.

-Bel

Looks great, I want that necklace for my warden!

So we decided to NOT make yet another all-in dps fest raid where the sole point of the encounter is to do as much damage as possible in as little time as possible so you don't die. Instead a raid actually has to work as a coordinated group.

Hallelujah Turbine and welcome back to SoA. Where have you been?! All of us SoA players have been patiently waiting for your return for ... oh I dunno... two years? I'm hoping against all hope that this new raid will be something akin to the Rift's Tharlauch or Barad Gularan's Udunion mechanics.

And what's this, automatic raid markings you say? Did I just read that correctly? What? What? You and I my friend, yes you and I, we've just become best buds.

It all sounds too good to be true.

Cloak is nice, throw ~100 morale on it then its epic. losing 200+ morale to pick up 6% crit is a tough choise. Rare items should not give epic items a run for thier money.

That's some nice looking toys there. I think that will motivate everyone to beat up on the new raid for at least as long as we've been in BG. Here's hoping they drop with more frequency than the Unwelcome Mat. Not much more, but I'd like to see a couple of each of those drop before I die of old age.

Nice going folks. If the rest of the drops have even a smattering of interesting upgrades you'll have a winner.

LOL at the cloak and the necklace, my mini and champ have far far better crafted items. I mean LOL. The necklace needs some agility and vit, otherwise the crafted mirk neck or barter mirk neck beat it hands down. The cloak needs 204 morale, otherwise saelchol from WP is better rofl. I mean seriously, what tactical class is lacking fate heh. 6% tac crit mult is nice but not worth losing 200 morale, esp considering how much aoe damage there is in OD.

The sword does look good though. Well done on that. Just please revisit the "epic" neck and cloak. I am STILL laughing.

Originally Posted by Dutchie86

With morale, the cloak would be overpowered i guess - Morale stacking isn't the way to go anymore i think, if i see the sets/items that drop, and why should it be, if you don't have aggro, you won't have too much incoming damage

It's a must-have on my mincy now

You want morale on your cloak for OD. You def want to a decent amount of morale for OD, I would say 5k is the minimum you should have unbuffed (tier 2) for tactical classes. There is a ton of aoe damage that cannot always be prevented. You will have a lot of incoming damage even if you arent tanking, which makes the cloak of hWin more like the cloak of phail.

Originally Posted by ANewMachine

One question: Why the anti-CC measures? I thought most of the complaints with recent content has been that it devalues CC and alternative methods of attacking problems, because stacking AoE DPS is so much more efficient? I was hoping for different threat and damage mechanics to discourage DPS-fests on trash, rather than anti-CC measures. But then, I'm still hoping a general tanking/threat overhaul will come with a Guardian/Warden update, so I can forgive you for not going there just now. But still, why the anti-CC? Just to prevent (devalue?) chain mezzing? As someone with a Burg alt, Anger is kinda discouraging...

The raid is not anti cc at all. Rather anger forces you to have lots of CC (on tier 2). You will need lots of cc and I def like the changes to the hunter cc trait line as that can be invaluable for trash. On tier 2 you cant really just aoe everything down because of the massive damage, at least initially.

Originally Posted by swordmonkey

The raid is not anti cc at all. Rather anger forces you to have lots of CC (on tier 2). You will need lots of cc and I def like the changes to the hunter cc trait line as that can be invaluable for trash. On tier 2 you cant really just aoe everything down because of the massive damage, at least initially.

Good to hear. Still, it does tone down the usefulness of Riddle, because one-shot CC with no backup is disfavored, as compared to more spammable, multi-target, redundant CC options.

But then, my burg isn't raid-ready, and may well never be, so it's not really my issue.

That sword is awesome..

Only thing that could make it better is some icpr, haha

Am I the only one who noticed something glaringly wrong here:

Originally Posted by Joe “jwbarry” Barry

Who exactly is Gortheron?

Gortheron is both the leader and the most powerful member of the Gaunt-lords. The Gaunt-lords are the creations of Sauron, built as twisted mockeries of the wizards of Middle-earth. As Ivar the Bloodhand is the analogue to Radagast the Brown, Gortheron is the opposing force to Gandalf the Grey.

Mr. Barry, have you read Tolkien's works? Gandalf the Grey was NOT the most powerful or the leader of the wizards, that distinction was held by Sauruman the White. Now it could be argued that Gandalf became more powerful after he came back from his fight with the Balrog, but that would not of been the case around the time the Gaunt-lords were created.

I hate to be one of those who cry about things and I usually take things as they come and try my best, but here goes my rant (My First Post BTW)--- What if you aren't one of those great players or happen to be able to hook up with the same ppl who learn over and over again, so they know what they are doing in the new RAID! And worst of all the ppl that want to do this RAID only want to hook up with ppl that are best players because they will rage log and disconnect from the RAID once they see the group they are with aren't the great or elite player like they are! (Watcher is the best example, thus far). It happens all the time! I do not consider myself an elite player or even above average for that matter, and yet it seems that this RAID instance is aimed at those type of players! So where doe that leave me?...not able to complete the game because noone will want to finish the instance with me or other players of my ilk. I just want to have fun and yes, complete the tasks and quests that are in the game, and I do my best. This is a game, not work! But it seems that my future in PLAYING this game is getting dimmer. In all your clapping yourselves on the back you forgot about the normal players who may never get to finish because of what seems to me to be an Elitest type of gameplay...I am already frustrated with some of the early Instances ad RAIDs that are difficult and get players upset with us who don't do the right thing at the right time. I love LoTRO MMO, it is my first and only online game that I play as a matter of fact! Yet it seems that I am going to hit a dead end even before the story line is complete. I want to PLAY (not work), have fun, be immersed in a fantasy game that I can escape into and complete the storyline, but you seem to be making it alot more like work and making it more difficult than it should be.

There I have said my piece and I hope that my jump to a conclusion is wrong. However, I am not holding my breath and I am anticipating the worst.

./bow were not worthy ./bow were not worthy

this looks like more fun then i can handle lol

tards be warned...

Originally Posted by swordmonkey

LOL at the cloak and the necklace, my mini and champ have far far better crafted items. I mean LOL. The necklace needs some agility and vit, otherwise the crafted mirk neck or barter mirk neck beat it hands down.

The sword does look good though. Well done on that. Just please revisit the "epic" neck and cloak. I am STILL laughing.

Its a tanking neck..so your laughing that your dps class has a better dps neck?
That neck has the most Might on any neck in the game, most incoming heal on any neck in the game, most raw morale on any neck in the entire game and has a bit of evade for giggles.

I know on my tank I'm capped might/vit, so I can drop what I have now for this, gain base morale because I can then change out another item from might to vit.

Its far from laughable. Its the best tanking neck in the game.

Your champ should find something better, but my guard, my warden, my 'tanking' champ wont find anything better.

And that is the reason they made this raid in a T1 and T2 version; T1 easier then BG normal mode, T2 near BG HM and T2 HM even harder (or all a little less hard)

So yeah, you probably can't complete the whole raid on T2 challenge mode (nor will I) but you can complete the raid on T1, so see all bosses/fights and experience the end of the raid

Originally Posted by SilverHug

There I have said my piece and I hope that my jump to a conclusion is wrong. However, I am not holding my breath and I am anticipating the worst.

It is wrong. Tier I is very pug friendly. Very very pug friendly. Pugs should be running tier I from day one.

The first thing that caught my eye was this statement: "The taste of victory was sweet because I earned it. I was better at the game than I was before; I had won."
Some aspects of the game seem to be made easier with each big update. The LI's for one and more specifically their runes. While I believe getting an LI worth keeping before was too difficult, it definitely made getting it that much more satisfactory.

As for the drops shown to us, they do look great. Especially the sword. As for the other two; well let me start of by saying my main is a cappy; I might use that cape if I was running HoH but then again, it has no health or power. Huge downsides to it. As for the pendant, it is impressive! However, after running through so many other dungeons and instances, my might is already near 700. I'm not sure about anyone else but when I look at replacing an item I am currently using, I want one that is basically increased stats from the one I currently have. I don't want to completely change all the jewelery I am wearing. (though I do tend to keep all the good stuff I get anyway)

I like the class skill resets. It is nice to have challenges to bring out all our abilities. Can we possibly get more solo challenges too? more like death from below in Mirkwood? The first time I killed that troll I was ecstactic and I had to do it again to make sure it wasn't a fluke. How about giving the people who don't group up a series of hard quests like that with their own set of rewards. I tend to fellow a lot myself but I know there are lots who don't.

Originally Posted by SilverHug

I hate to be one of those who cry about things and I usually take things as they come and try my best, but here goes my rant (My First Post BTW)--- What if you aren't one of those great players or happen to be able to hook up with the same ppl who learn over and over again, so they know what they are doing in the new RAID! And worst of all the ppl that want to do this RAID only want to hook up with ppl that are best players because they will rage log and disconnect from the RAID once they see the group they are with aren't the great or elite player like they are! (Watcher is the best example, thus far). It happens all the time! I do not consider myself an elite player or even above average for that matter, and yet it seems that this RAID instance is aimed at those type of players! So where doe that leave me?...not able to complete the game because noone will want to finish the instance with me or other players of my ilk. I just want to have fun and yes, complete the tasks and quests that are in the game, and I do my best. This is a game, not work! But it seems that my future in PLAYING this game is getting dimmer. In all your clapping yourselves on the back you forgot about the normal players who may never get to finish because of what seems to me to be an Elitest type of gameplay...I am already frustrated with some of the early Instances ad RAIDs that are difficult and get players upset with us who don't do the right thing at the right time. I love LoTRO MMO, it is my first and only online game that I play as a matter of fact! Yet it seems that I am going to hit a dead end even before the story line is complete. I want to PLAY (not work), have fun, be immersed in a fantasy game that I can escape into and complete the storyline, but you seem to be making it alot more like work and making it more difficult than it should be.

There I have said my piece and I hope that my jump to a conclusion is wrong. However, I am not holding my breath and I am anticipating the worst.

I think the idea is to have Tier 1 be for the more casual players to experience the full raid while Tier 2 is for the raiders who really want a challenge. From what I have heard Tier 1 is pretty easy and not really harder than the watcher or DN if you are 65.

Even so, if you just wait a while till strategies have been figured out and get experience with the first tier in the meantime you might find yourself up to the challenge.

I wish i could raid again, this sound terribly fun and serious !

May i ask how much T1 raid ask in time consuming ? (4, 6, 10 hours ?)

Originally Posted by Grampsaz

Its a tanking neck..so your laughing that your dps class has a better dps neck?
That neck has the most Might on any neck in the game, most incoming heal on any neck in the game, most raw morale on any neck in the entire game and has a bit of evade for giggles.

I know on my tank I'm capped might/vit, so I can drop what I have now for this, gain base morale because I can then change out another item from might to vit.

Its far from laughable. Its the best tanking neck in the game.

Your champ should find something better, but my guard, my warden, my 'tanking' champ wont find anything better.

I tank all the time on my champ, and I would never wear that. I should clarify that I do think it can be an ok necklace, its just not an epic necklace. There is not reason to have that much might without spreading some stats to agility or vit. Yes my champ could switch other jewelry to make it work, but its not worth it for 25 extra morale when I will lose morale switching the other jewelry. Take one look at the crafted mirk neck and tell me with a straight face its not as good as this piece.

Your going to have to make tradeoffs to slot it (as you admitted), instead of being able to slot it, knowing its the best tanking neck in the game. And is your gaurd capped on agility? Would it not be usefull to have say 20 agility on this neck and drop 20 might? The sword I would want on champ hands down, as there is only a slight tradeoff in morale from mirist for a huge increase in damage.

There is no way you can argue that the cloak isnt fail though

Don't be a fanboi just because the raid is so awesome, which it is. We still need to stick it to them to give us epic loots. The sword is a step in the right direction, the cloak is a step back, and the neck is meh. Thank goodness the mini armor set is good...

Originally Posted by Marguerita

I wish i could raid again, this sound terribly fun and serious !

May i ask how much T1 raid ask in time consuming ? (4, 6, 10 hours ?)

Target time for a full run, presuming you kinda know what you're doing and don't wipe, is 3 hours total, so 30 minutes per boss section.

I appreciate the openness with which something noteworthy from another game was mentioned as such, and detailed and adopted. I'm very happy that Turbine is apparently committed to creating challenging raids again (c.f. the new Helegrod) that reward deliberate tactics and reduce random number generator aggravation.

The conveniences of automatic raid marking and cooldown resets are also appreciated. When these innovations come out, they will have surpassed AOE looting.

The article's breadcrumbs to keep the loot munchkins reading was also cute.

Super stoked for the new content, sounds rad.

I gotta give one cautious criticism though.... y'all are starting to present things in a very anti-immersion manner. Might wanna start filtering some of these Dev Diaries through Berpheron. Seriously just a little more care would go a VERY long way in keeping the community energized for the world they're members of.

EDIT: not that I don't appreciate how forthcoming y'all are with the discussions of mechanics. That's nigh unprecedentend in the industry and also does a great job of keeping the community connected. I just want to caution for balance and tact!

Originally Posted by Grampsaz

Its a tanking neck..so your laughing that your dps class has a better dps neck?
That neck has the most Might on any neck in the game, most incoming heal on any neck in the game, most raw morale on any neck in the entire game and has a bit of evade for giggles.

Actually that is not true about the Incoming Healing, Mirhigil has over 1200.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Item:...%28Level_61%29

Originally Posted by MikeA

Actually that is not true about the Incoming Healing, Mirhigil has over 1200.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Item:...%28Level_61%29

Geezus..never even seen that one before lol..Why so much on a low lv neck?

"Further challenges sit above Tier 2 difficulty. These are the tasks that are asked of the players on the highest level of LOTRO. You’ll be asked to do it faster, better and harder than anyone else. To beat the challenges, perfection is expected of you."

I love it! WooHoo!! That Dev Diary got me psyched up! I can't wait for the new Raid! In fact, I'm copying a toon over to BR and hitting it this weekend. LOL!

I just have one question. Since perfection is required, does this mean the "perfect group makeup" will be required? I only ask because it would be really great if this were not the case and we could rely on the secondary abilities of some classes. For instance, a Hunter traited ToF for CC instead of a LM. Just wondering...

Must have Cloak of Hwin (Cloak of Win?! lol)!!

Auto-Markings - Our Raid Leader is going to love this.

Cooldown Reset - Me Likey! Challenge is good.

JWBarry: I love your approach and premises behind structuring this new Raid. Sounds like it may turn out to be the best yet! Vent will be a must (as if it isn't already).

I do hope that the rewards are worth it. That's the only thing that was really a bummer about BG. Bring it on!!

Great read and good to know your thought process that goes on when developing. I think a lot of us have sat back in a raid and thought... WHY THE HELL DID THEY ADD THIS and 9/10 the answer we knew was just time sink and give something to do before reaching a boss.

I'm having fun with this raid, but I must admit I think the most fun I ever had raiding was Rift and working on those fights. I love the new mechanics and challenges we now face but something about that time in the game and the epic fight that was disease Balrog made Rift a very enjoyable raid. I'm hoping that at the end of this raid I'm left feeling at least something close to that.

Originally Posted by Overtone

I just have one question. Since perfection is required, does this mean the "perfect group makeup" will be required? I only ask because it would be really great if this were not the case and we could rely on the secondary abilities of some classes. For instance, a Hunter traited ToF for CC instead of a LM. Just wondering...

I would say that some classes and makeup are going to be important, but like all the other raids, once you learn a fight and get better at it you will be able to change class makeup to suit your own needs. I could add more about each fight and class requirements to make them "easier" but I won't spoil your learning fun you will have!

Originally Posted by FieldMedic

Am I the only one who noticed something glaringly wrong here:



Mr. Barry, have you read Tolkien's works? Gandalf the Grey was NOT the most powerful or the leader of the wizards, that distinction was held by Sauruman the White. Now it could be argued that Gandalf became more powerful after he came back from his fight with the Balrog, but that would not of been the case around the time the Gaunt-lords were created.

Several times actually.

When we were coming up with the storyline for the raid, MadeOfLions and I actually spent a good deal of time talking about this exact point. We came to the conclusion that Gandalf was the more powerful because of the difference in their characters and how they responded to different situations. Saruman was tempted with the promise of the ring and the idea of its power, and he fell. Gandalf was tempted with the actual ring and he resisted. Saruman stands behind lies, deceit and an army. Gandalf tells his friends to flee while he battles an evil he doesn't think he can defeat.

When judging your enemies, the ones who have the strength of conviction to stand and fight, no matter the odds, or the outlook, or any temptations are the far more powerful and dangerous opponents, even if they are ranks lower than the ones leading. This is something Sauron would definitely know.

Thus, we decided that through actions, and judging the actual character, Gandalf was the superior of all the wizards.