Thread: just really little questions again

I had a few random questions that might have been answered before but I don't remember exactly, I'm sorry.

the first is, why can't the elves and men go to the same place after they leave middle earth, does Tolkien say exactly maybe in the Simillarian it says? I just didn't understand why Elves go to Valinor and only Elves and they don't get to be with Men, Hobbits or Dwarves.

Second is my birthday is in March and I have books to ask for My Tolkien collection is all the LOTRs and the Simillarian. I'm def asking for The Hobbit. What else should be top picks to ask for, would you recommend? when I was in barns and nobles I saw a lot of Tolkien.

Also question has anyone heard that there's going to be a new book based on Tolkien? It's going to be called Mirkwood by the Tolkien Estate. (I read that on facebook) Is that a good biography do you think or would you recommend another one if there is 1?

My last question is Sauron was he the same as the ringwraiths at this point, but just unable to move and instead of black he was fire (the eye)?
I got to the part in RotK when the Ring is destroyed. Wow. That happened faster than I thought in the writing, I thought it was going to be about 10 pages telling it but then it was so fast Frodo says plain he's keeping it, Sam gets hit, Gollum bites the finger, then he falls backward into Mt Doom. I wasn't disappointed though..I wish I could read it over like new again lol I never read any story like this before that I loved this much.

Thank you Tolkien fans.

Why do only Elves go to Aman? As stated in The Silmarillion, it is their Fate. Unlike Men, they are bound to this world. (Aman was once part of Arda, the world.) As you read The Lord of the Rings there are many allusions to the Elves' sea lust. The sea lust drives them to go to Eldamar ('Elvenhome'). Remember Galadriel's warning to Legolas delivered by Gandalf after his return from death?

Legolas Greenleaf long under tree
In joy thou hast lived. Beware the Sea!
If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore,
Thy heart then shall rest in the forest no more.

Before the destruction of the Two Trees the Valar called the Elves to go to Aman. The Vanyar, the Noldor, and many of the Teleri made the journey across the sea. After the destruction of the Two Trees many of the Noldor returned to Middle-earth. Over the millenia following the creation of the Sun and the Moon many Elves sailed West. In the end they will all dwell in Aman (with perhaps the exception of those who have committed atrocities, such as Fëanor, who may remain in the Halls of Waiting indefinitely), whether they Sail the Straight Road or whether they are slain or 'fade' during their physical lives in Middle-earth.

Sauron is quite different from a Ringwraith. Sauron was a Maia. The Maiar are exhalted beings, angels if you like. Some--like Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast--have adopted physical bodies while they live in Middle-earth. Sauron put much of his power into the One Ring. When it was destroyed he lacked sufficient power to take form as he had previously when his physical bodies had been destroyed, i.e., with the downfall of Númenor and his defeat at the Battle of Dagorlad. He was in a state of limbo, and would presumably one day be cast into the Void as had Morgoth.

The Ringwraiths were once Men, but have been corrupted to a state of undeath by the Rings of Power that they wore. With the destruction of the One Ring presumably the spirits of the Ringwraiths would go to the Halls of Waiting to await judgment. What would that judgment be? Given Gandalf's declaration to the Lord of the Nazgûl at the gates of Minas Tirith, perhaps the Fate of all of the followers of Morgoth and Sauron was to be cast into the Void: "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!"

Elves and Men were endowed by their creator Illuvatar (or Eru) with profoundly different natures. The elves are bound up within Arda (the world) until the end of its existence. Elves do not age, although they may be slain. If an Elf dies, his or her spirit travels to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor (which as Badgerbrock points out is nevertheless still part of the universe of Arda). The spirit tarries there for some period of time (longer or shorter no one really knows why) until it is eventually reincarnated within the world of Arda as an Elf. The critical element here is that the Elves' spirits never leave Arda for so long as Arda exists. A major consequence of this is that the Elves tend to become weary of the long ages of the world even though they have the apparent "gift" of immortality from Illuvatar.

Men, on the other hand, live a short period of time and then die of old age (if they are not sooner slain). Once they die, their spirits leave the bounds of Arda, none know whence. That is their "gift" from Illuvatar. Because the unknown is scary, many view this not as a gift but as a "doom" and one of the central themes of the stories of the 2nd and 3rd Ages is the way in which Men rail against their fate.

In his Letters, Tolkien actually says that in his mind, more than anything else, the Silmarillion and LotR books are about death and what comes after, and how different peoples deal with those issues.

Oldbadgerbrock and Vilnas gave excellent answers as they always do. I just wanted to add a few points.

Originally Posted by bethanna

why can't the elves and men go to the same place after they leave middle earth, does Tolkien say exactly maybe in the Simillarian it says? I just didn't understand why Elves go to Valinor and only Elves and they don't get to be with Men, Hobbits or Dwarves.

I think what you're really asking here is why did Ilúvatar decree different fates for Elves and Men. For me, the answer is: to allow the introduction of free will into the history of Arda. The Elves and Valar and Maiar, as you know, are all bound to the fate of Arda as long as it exists, and they are also constrained by the Music of Ainur. Men received the Gift of Ilúvatar, and along with the mortality that this entailed, they were unbound from fate of Arda and were able to choose their fate while alive without being constrained by the Music of the Ainur, "which is as fate to all things else". The net effect is that they are able to exercise true free will. The decisions (some bad, some good) made by Men in the history of Middle-earth, all culminate in the complex series of events that make up the history of the First, Second, and Third Ages and result in the great eucatastrophes ("good catastrophes") in the tales (like Eärendil's arrival in Valinor, Aragorn's arrival at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and the destruction of the Ring). Even though these eucatastrophes are events that happen in response to evil times and situations, they are still beautiful things to have happened, and Middle-earth's history would be the poorer if they hadn't happened.

Originally Posted by bethanna

I'm def asking for The Hobbit. What else should be top picks to ask for, would you recommend?...Also question has anyone heard that there's going to be a new book based on Tolkien? It's going to be called Mirkwood by the Tolkien Estate. (I read that on facebook) Is that a good biography do you think or would you recommend another one if there is 1?

I think you might like Tales from the Perilous Realm. It's a collection of short stories including "Roverandom" (about a dog who is enchanted by a sea-wizard), "Farmer Giles of Ham" (who fights a dragon), "Smith of Wooten Major" (about a cook who travels to the Realm of Faërie), "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" (a collection of poems about Tom's adventures) and more.

I would recommend avoiding the Mirkwood book you mentioned. It's actually not a biography but a novel that uses Tolkien as a character in what seems to be kind of a distasteful way. The Tolkien estate is actually trying to block the book's publication.

My last question is Sauron was he the same as the ringwraiths at this point, but just unable to move and instead of black he was fire (the eye)?

In the Lord of the Rings, Sauron is actually not a giant flaming eyeball as seen in the movies, though in the book his Eye is often invoked metaphorically to describe the attention of his will. Rather he is in a physical form, but remains within the Dark Tower throughout the action of the story, a black and shadowy physical presence brooding at the pinnacle of Barad-Dûr, his metaphorical Eye always bent on the Ring (I think that's way creepier than a giant flaming eyeball suspended between rabbit ears). Remember that Gollum actually saw him during his captivity, and describes the four fingers on his black hand (from when Isildur cut off the Ring) -- compare with Frodo at the end of the story.

Hope this helps!

Men were not allowed to step foot in Valinor. They were forbidden to do so. This was a main part of the second age and the story of Numenor. Sauron was able to convince the men of Numenor that immortality was being withheld from them by the Valar and the only way to get it was to seize control of Valinor and worship Morgoth. The truth was that their mortality was a gift from Iluvitar, but they viewed it as a curse.

As for Tolkien books I would recommend, I would get the Children of Hurin and look at Unfinished Tales. Their both good reads for LotR fans and UT gives some insight into some good topics you might want to know more about, such as the Istari and the history of Galadriel and Celeborn.

Sounds like that Mirkwood book is one to avoid, I don't like the sound of it from what Lafeeverte says.

As far as the condition of Sauron vs. the Nazgul, Lafeeverte covers that pretty well. Having watched the movie first (which you did, if I remember correctly) you tend to picture things the way they are in the movie, and form less of your own opinions (it is nice to see how others interpret and picture things sometimes, but its difficult to form your own images when you see others first). There isn't any definitive evidence in the book to show that Sauron actually looked like a giant flaming eye on the top of Barad-dur, thats just Jackson's interpretation and way of making it work in the movie. The symbol of the eye is referred to in the book, on the shields of battalions of orcs, etc.

The Nazgul no longer had physical form, they were invisible to everyone except those elves that saw the Two Trees before they were destroyed and those who put on the One Ring. The wore black robes to give them some form of appearance so that they could interact with the physical form. Sauron however could take physical form if he wished, which all the Maia were able to do. At the end of the second age and he was defeated, he lost the strength to hold his physical form and had to retreat to recover and eventually returned at Dol Guldor in southern Mirkwood.

On the fates of elves and men:

In fact men also got to Valinor, to the Halls of Mandos when they die. After a while, however, they go to an unknown fate beyond the world. In setting it up this way, Tolkien was making room for his Catholic theology, with the halls of Mandos then serving the role of Purgatory. Presumably what good men go on to is to be with Iluvatar and sing his praises, and in fact to be like Illuvatar (in some undefined way).

Elves in contrast do not leave the world until its destruction. If humans become like Illuvatar, then elves certainly become more and more like the Valar as time goes on. Already in the greatest elves their spirit shines through their body so that to other elves (and to wearers of the one ring) they seem like creatures of light. Eventually the spirit so dominates that they have no visible body at all.

Hobbits are like men, and have the same fate.

Dwarves are different again. When they die they also go to the Halls of Mandos, to be ressurected at the end of the world (according to their legend), but unlike Elves and Men, they remain firmly what they have always been.

Originally Posted by bethanna

I had a few random questions that might have been answered before but I don't remember exactly, I'm sorry.

the first is, why can't the elves and men go to the same place after they leave middle earth, does Tolkien say exactly maybe in the Simillarian it says? I just didn't understand why Elves go to Valinor and only Elves and they don't get to be with Men, Hobbits or Dwarves.

Second is my birthday is in March and I have books to ask for My Tolkien collection is all the LOTRs and the Simillarian. I'm def asking for The Hobbit. What else should be top picks to ask for, would you recommend? when I was in barns and nobles I saw a lot of Tolkien.

Also question has anyone heard that there's going to be a new book based on Tolkien? It's going to be called Mirkwood by the Tolkien Estate. (I read that on facebook) Is that a good biography do you think or would you recommend another one if there is 1?

My last question is Sauron was he the same as the ringwraiths at this point, but just unable to move and instead of black he was fire (the eye)?
I got to the part in RotK when the Ring is destroyed. Wow. That happened faster than I thought in the writing, I thought it was going to be about 10 pages telling it but then it was so fast Frodo says plain he's keeping it, Sam gets hit, Gollum bites the finger, then he falls backward into Mt Doom. I wasn't disappointed though..I wish I could read it over like new again lol I never read any story like this before that I loved this much.

Thank you Tolkien fans.

Hi Bethanna,

Elves and men go to different places because Illuvatar (God) gave them different destinies to fulfill on Middle Earth. The elves are able to return to the Undying Lands (Valinor) to live in perfect peace free from the troubles and weariness of Middle Earth. Think of Valinor as 'heaven on earth.' So technically the Elves can 'live forever' by going to a place where men can never go (that's another huge story in itself).

Men die, and do not know where they go after leaving Middle Earth. Kind of like us - we really don't know what, if anything, happens to us after we die. Interesting point: both elves and men envy each other. The elves envy men for being able to die and become spiritually closer with Illuvatar, while men envy elves for being 'immortal' and able to live in 'heaven on earth.'

Reading recommendations: Unfinished Tales brings together alot of other stories related to the Silmarillion, Hobbit, and Lord of the Rings that Tolkien didn't finish or couldn't fit in. And 'Tales From the Perilous Realm': other fantasy/faerie stories that Tolkien wrote independent of his main mythology. Farmer Giles of Ham really stands out for me! And 'Tales' just proves that Tolkien was simply a master storyteller who could captivate people! 'Talesfrom the Perilous Realm' is a real gem!

Theobryn

Hey guys,

I want to give a deep bow with thanks and I want to comment on the replies but ah I have sooo much to say LOL! I was sick last week with a fever and sore throat and I couldn't sleep good but I didn't feel good enough to get up so I read and FINISHED RotK. I'm trying to find the words to put it, but I don't know how exactly. It was the saddest and best end I read in one. I read some of the Appendix, the part about Aragorn and Arwen (I'm glad it had that in there because I rly wanted to know what happened, I wished Faramir and Eowyn adn Legolas and Gimli had been in there too) and Arwen's fate was so so sad. I thought I was done crying when I got to the end, I didn't think I was going to cry in the Appendix!!! I wondered if Arwen regretted her choice because she went to die in Lorien alone and not be buried with Aragorn. (DID ARAGORN KILL HIMSELF???? I can't believe Tolkien would have him leave Arwen after her sacrifice for him!)

Anyway, Lafeeverte you understood what I had tried to ask best (I know it was hard to understand what exactly I was looking for) about Sauron's "body" I had been confused about the Eye. I didn't recall it being described in the books except as red. So I wasn't sure if it was like in the movie. I guess I didn't realize Gollum was talking about him.(And yeah ironic Frodo's finger off! like Sauron's) Now it makes sence Sauron had a body because I was wondering if the Eye was his spirit or w/e.

And thank you for the answers about your opinions why the Elves go to Valinor but Men don't. Wether fate, free will or purgatory I would like to pretend in the story they all meet up anyway after the end of the world (ok, even though it says in RotK they aren't together "beyond the ends of the world" it doesn't say never!)

Last but not least thanks for the book recommendations! Unfinished Tales definatley is on the list, but The Hobbit is first, I can't wait for that one. I tried to start the Simillarian. I got a few pages, maybe because I was sick I wasn't concentrating on a new book really but it was a little hard. Like I'm picturing it as all these "angels" like millions singing to Illuvatar and then Melkor starts singing something that's bad and it ruins the whole song. Illuvatar gets mad 3 times and makes new songs for them all to sing. Then crates Arda which was really their singing. Then 2 Valars go there, one in the water and one in the air. That's as far as I got, did I get it right?

What is everyone's favorite Tolkien book?

Bethanna, I agree it was sad for Arwen when Aragorn laid down his life. It was, however, important for Tolkien's mythology. The early kings of Numenor, Aragorn's ancestors lived a long time, but then laid their lives down willingly before they reached dotage. They did not fear death because they trusted Illuvator, and the death was indeed a gift for man. Later kings started to cling to life, and it was from their that Numenor went downhill, until the last king, Ar Pharazon so feared death that he invaded Valenor to seize immortality for himself.

By laying this life aside while in his prime, Aragorn establishes again that he is the true heir of the early kings. Had he clung to life, then Arwen would have out lived him still, but he would have been for the last years of his life, crippled, demented and a dotard.

Another point is that Aragorn did not commit suicide. He did not stab himself, or starve himself. He merely ceased to will his own life.

Originally Posted by bethanna

I tried to start the Simillarian. I got a few pages, maybe because I was sick I wasn't concentrating on a new book really but it was a little hard. Like I'm picturing it as all these "angels" like millions singing to Illuvatar and then Melkor starts singing something that's bad and it ruins the whole song. Illuvatar gets mad 3 times and makes new songs for them all to sing. Then crates Arda which was really their singing. Then 2 Valars go there, one in the water and one in the air. That's as far as I got, did I get it right?

The Silmarillion is a very different kind of book from LotR - it is really more like a history than a novel. A lot of folks struggle with it initially, especially the first few chapters, so don't feel like it's just you. If ultimately you feel that you just can't get through it, I would skip to the last segment called "On the Rings of Power and the Third Age." You should definitely read that as it deals with the places and events you are already familiar with. Hopefully that will get things into the groove a bit better. I would then go back and dive into the large middle part the Silmarillion called "The Quenta Silmarillion." If that works out for you, then I think at that point you will find that you don't have any trouble going back and reading the first two parts - The Ainulindale and Valaquenta. Trying to start with those chapters is like picking up the Bible for the first time and trying to get through Genesis. Even though it helps set the stage for what is to come it's tedious and not really what the rest of book is all about.

Whatever ultimately happens between you and the Silmarillion, you will definitely want to read The Hobbit.

Your summary of the Ainulindale is almost completely correct in the pertinent details. I think the only correction I would make is that once Eru made Arda "real" by investing it with the sacred fire, all of the Valar (along with a bunch of Maia as well) entered into it pretty much all at the same time, except Tulkas who comes late to the party. You state that only two of the Valar entered Arda.

Cutholen, thanks I see now a little better. Where did you read about Ar Pharazon? I'd like to read that story.

Vilnas thanks too, I think I will start with "On the Rings of Power and the Third Age." I hadn't realized all the Valar entered Arda...did their songs create events in Arda? Yeah it reminded me of the bible a little!

Originally Posted by Vilnas

Your summary of the Ainulindale is almost completely correct in the pertinent details. I think the only correction I would make is that once Eru made Arda "real" by investing it with the sacred fire, all of the Valar (along with a bunch of Maia as well) entered into it pretty much all at the same time, except Tulkas who comes late to the party. You state that only two of the Valar entered Arda.

It's a little different. The terms Valar and Maiar apply only to those of Ainur who entered Arda. But not all of them did.

The story of Ar Pharazon is told in greatest depth in the Silmarilion under the story of Akallabeth. It may also be in the appendices of LotR, but ever since I have had daughters who can read, I've never been able to find my copy of Return of the King (grrr), so I cannot check.

There are additional tales of Numenor in Unfinished Tales, and undoubtedly more information can be found in the History of Middle Earth (most of which I do not possess).

Originally Posted by bethanna

Vilnas thanks too, I think I will start with "On the Rings of Power and the Third Age." I hadn't realized all the Valar entered Arda...did their songs create events in Arda? Yeah it reminded me of the bible a little!

To clarify the terminology a bit, the Ainur are essentially angels who dwelt with Illuvatar (God) in his halls, which are located in some undefined, formless beyond. After Arda was created as a real place, some of the Ainur entered into it. Of those Ainur who entered Arda, those of the greatest innate power are called the Valar and those of lesser stature are called the Maiar. They are all still properly called Ainur, as are the angels who remained beyond.

I will try and follow up a bit later with some thoughts on creation. I started to write something on that and it began to get out of hand, as the issue is somewhat complicated.

Originally Posted by bethanna

I want to give a deep bow with thanks

You're welcome! I enjoy thinking about the thoughful questions you ask.

I read some of the Appendix, the part about Aragorn and Arwen (I'm glad it had that in there because I rly wanted to know what happened, I wished Faramir and Eowyn adn Legolas and Gimli had been in there too) and Arwen's fate was so so sad.

Concerning the conversation of Arwen and Aragorn on his deathbed, I really like that passage. Very bittersweet. Arwen doesn't fully "get it" yet, but Aragorn does. He shows his great wisdom and his great faith in the fate decreed for Men. When Arwen returns to empty, abandoned Lothlórien to surrender her life, remember that she is returning to the hill of Cerin Amroth, where she and Aragorn plighted their troth many years before. It was undoubtedly a place of special memory and joy for her. Remembering this makes it a little less sad. And after all, nobody can know for sure, but after death we can hope (or maybe "have faith" is the right term) that they will be together again in the presence of Ilúvatar.

There is a passage, somewhere in the Appendix I think, maybe the last part, that talks about how Legolas eventually took ship to the Undying Lands. You will be happy to know that Gimli was allowed to travel with him. I believe it's suggested that Galadriel herself had specially requested Gimli to be permitted to come. That always makes me smile.

I would like to pretend in the story they all meet up anyway after the end of the world (ok, even though it says in RotK they aren't together "beyond the ends of the world" it doesn't say never!)

I think it's safe to assume that after the final battle all peoples will be reunited for the making of the new world, Arda Unmarred.

I tried to start the Simillarian. I got a few pages, maybe because I was sick I wasn't concentrating on a new book really but it was a little hard

...

What is everyone's favorite Tolkien book?

There's no doubt that the Silmarillion can be a tough read. I tried to read it many, many times over a period of about 10 years -- unsuccessfully. Finally a couple years ago I read it cover to cover and now, having reread it a number of times it is my favourite of Tolkien's books.

What finally helped me to read it and enjoy it was that I only read one section per day and I had to change my style of reading a bit. I slowed down and read each word almost as if listening to the words in my head to "hear" the sentences, if that makes sense. Another thing that really helped later was to listen to the Tolkien Professor's truly excellent lectures. If you haven't heard of these I heartily recommend them: http://www.tolkienprofessor.com/

Originally Posted by lafeeverte

Concerning the conversation of Arwen and Aragorn on his deathbed, I really like that passage. Very bittersweet. Arwen doesn't fully "get it" yet, but Aragorn does. He shows his great wisdom and his great faith in the fate decreed for Men. When Arwen returns to empty, abandoned Lothlórien to surrender her life, remember that she is returning to the hill of Cerin Amroth, where she and Aragorn plighted their troth many years before. It was undoubtedly a place of special memory and joy for her. Remembering this makes it a little less sad. And after all, nobody can know for sure, but after death we can hope (or maybe "have faith" is the right term) that they will be together again in the presence of Ilúvatar.

I like to think that, since they're essentially a rerun of Beren and Luthien, they will be given a similar option. Just as a quick aside, the Tale of Beren and Luthien is, in my opinion, among the five most beautiful things Tolkien ever wrote(number one is the Ley of Leithian, and I always get incredibly sad when I think about the fact that that was never finished).

I think it's safe to assume that after the final battle all peoples will be reunited for the making of the new world, Arda Unmarred

It's actually a kind of weird thing there. If I recall correctly, it is said that, effectively, all the children of Iluvatar will have a part in the second music, but what will happen to mortals is unknown. Having them return to Arda doesn't seem quite right to me, but neither does putting them anywhere else, except perhaps in the Halls if Iluvatar.

scaliper, I assume when you distinguish between the tale of Beren and Luthien and the Lay of Leithian, you are distinguishing between the prose version in the Silmarillion, and the Poetic version in Unfinished Tales? If that is so, I heartily concur. It is my lasting regret that the tale of Beren and Luthien was never brought to such completeness as was The Tale of the Children of Hurin.

By the way, hear, hear, to your sig line.

Originally Posted by Cutholen

scaliper, I assume when you distinguish between the tale of Beren and Luthien and the Lay of Leithian, you are distinguishing between the prose version in the Silmarillion, and the Poetic version in Unfinished Tales? If that is so, I heartily concur. It is my lasting regret that the tale of Beren and Luthien was never brought to such completeness as was The Tale of the Children of Hurin.

By the way, hear, hear, to your sig line.

Yup, those are the two(although my copy of the Lay is in "The Lays of Beleriand"). Actually, a little pet idea of mine(probably never to be seen through) is to petition a bunch of honest-to-goodness Tolkien scholars (and, of course, Christopher Tolkien) to do their best in copying the style and finishing it.

Also, which line? I like to think that both one and three are correct


Heading back in the thread a little ways, the idea behind the creation myth is incredibly complex. The Music of the Ainur acts as a sort of guiding fate for the world, the Ainur, and the elves. Men, however, are able to alter their lives outside the confines of the music. So the music does indeed foretell events and themes for all of history, but it can also, strangely enough, be altered completely by those not bound by it. That's an idea that I personally have yet to be able to wrap my head around and rationalize.

Another important note is that nobody except Iluvatar actually fully comprehends the music. Much like you don't need to know music theory and have a complete understanding of the genius of Mozart to play Concerto 21, the Ainur pretty much kept to their own parts, and didn't fully comprehend everything going on around them. Thus they are often surprized by the twists and turns of fate.

You are of course right about the source of the poem(s).

You will have to refresh my memory about the lines. I'm not sure to which you are referring.

With regard to the Music of the Ainur, which I found inspirational when I first read it, I think even the fates of men are bound by it. It is just that neither Manwë nor Mandos understand the those parts of the music which involve men most closely. The resolution of this bound fate with human freedom lies in the same nature as the resolution of Morgoth's rebellion and Illuvatar's supremacy. Men can act either for or against their fate as they imagine it, or as any can foresee it, but they will find in the end that the consequences of their acts are bound up in some aspect of Illuvatar's third theme, so that the consequences of the act become part of Illuvatar's plan from the beginning.

Clever trick by Illuvatar of course, and it would take a god to pull it of ....

Originally Posted by Cutholen

You are of course right about the source of the poem(s).

You will have to refresh my memory about the lines. I'm not sure to which you are referring.

With regard to the Music of the Ainur, which I found inspirational when I first read it, I think even the fates of men are bound by it. It is just that neither Manwë nor Mandos understand the those parts of the music which involve men most closely. The resolution of this bound fate with human freedom lies in the same nature as the resolution of Morgoth's rebellion and Illuvatar's supremacy. Men can act either for or against their fate as they imagine it, or as any can foresee it, but they will find in the end that the consequences of their acts are bound up in some aspect of Illuvatar's third theme, so that the consequences of the act become part of Illuvatar's plan from the beginning.

Clever trick by Illuvatar of course, and it would take a god to pull it of ....

I mostly drew my conclusions off of this bit here, which is found in the Quenta immediately following the description of the powers:

Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

That said, it does lead to a bit of a paradox. If men can shape their lives beyond the Music, then they'll be changing the fate of the world, and thus causing everything else to deviate from the music. On the other hand, if nothing else deviates from the music, then Men aren't shaping their lives beyond the Music. I expect the answer is somewhere in the middle

The lines were in reference to your comment concerning my sig.

Originally Posted by scaliper

That said, it does lead to a bit of a paradox. If men can shape their lives beyond the Music, then they'll be changing the fate of the world, and thus causing everything else to deviate from the music. On the other hand, if nothing else deviates from the music, then Men aren't shaping their lives beyond the Music. I expect the answer is somewhere in the middle

It's a Boethian paradox. Tolkien would have been very familiar with Boethius's The Consolation of Philosophy and would have included this paradox deliberately.

Originally Posted by lafeeverte

It's a Boethian paradox. Tolkien would have been very familiar with Boethius's The Consolation of Philosophy and would have included this paradox deliberately.

Good point imo.

For further reading re: this;

- "The Letters of JRR Tolkien", letter # 153, p. 195, which includes;

even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good...

Letter # 183, p. 243;

In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing...

I also suggest the book "JRR Tolkien: Author of the Century" by Tom Shippey and his Chapter "The Lord of the Rings (2) Concepts of Evil: Two Views of Evil", p. 130, which relates LOTR and Boethian concepts which imo can also be applied to The Silmarillion.

"The Boethian view is this... people in their ignorance often identify as evil things which are in fact and in the long run, or in the divine plan, to their advantage."

BB ;-)