Thread: Dev Diary Feedback: Update 2 Monster Play Dev Diary

In today's developer diary Jared Pruett discusses the changes to Monster Play in Update 2!

You can read more and post your comments here!

I think the guardian changes look pretty good but I'd have to test them to confirm, the tutorial will be good for newer players.

I'm not quite understanding the idea behind moving the weaver's Lie In Wait to rank 6, but my main question is how will it be handled for characters that already have this skill now that aren't R6 yet. Will it be disabled until we hit R6 or will it still work since we already have it?

Originally Posted by Arangarlas

I'm not quite understanding the idea behind moving the weaver's Lie In Wait to rank 6, but my main question is how will it be handled for characters that already have this skill now that aren't R6 yet. Will it be disabled until we hit R6 or will it still work since we already have it?

It'll probably be removed just like the skills were for freeps who 'no longer meet the requirements' when they changed the level at which certain skills were available.

Looks neat, the burglar six piece bonus looks really useful with all the spiders and wargs throwing bleeds and poisons everywhere.

Increasing the cooldown on Flaming Arrow to 20 seconds? No! It does little enough damage as it is. It can be removed with a pot (and an LM can remove 3 of them at once). 10 seconds maybe. 15 even. But no more.

OMG. Has this dev even played PvMP?

Giving every freep class more CC skills - some with 100% effect if using 2 insignias, is ridiculous. The CC balance between the two sides is already very lopsided and this only greatly exacerbates the issue.

Secondly, the freeps also already have a strong advantage in ranged combat (especially in conjunction to their superior CC) and by increasing the Fire Arrow cooldown by 400% is pure stupidity.

What options do creeps have to fight back? Pretty much none...

Inferior Crowd Control - so playing smart doesn't help
Inferior Group Oriented Skills - so teamwork doesn't help much
Inferior Ranged DPS - higher CDs, less damage, creeps effects removed with a potion
Inferior Melee Combat - compare guards to reavers or burgs to wargs

Looks like RIFT is gonna get a big influx of former-LotRO pvpers.

The changes to freep rewards are good-- they make the items much more compelling as rewards.

However, there still seems to be a fundamental disconnect in terms of making sure people are given good incentives to play a creep. If you're playing a freep, you're making your main character stronger-- which is good incentive. You're playing with a character you're comfortable with. You're also likely playing with your usual kinship, etc. But for a creep, you have basically no carry over in gains for your main (you can BARELY count destiny points). You may have some kin members coming for kicks, but it is unlikely your entire kin is playing their creeps as often as they play their freeps. The upcoming changes give some decent buffs for players to "step through the door" of playing a creep by making them stronger at the start, but they do nothing to address the massive climb needed in order to advance as a creep.

Freeps get the benefit of gear for their troubles. All creeps get is the fun of being a creep-- and since as a creep, you're almost always against level 65's with good gear, this can be a big uphill climb from the start. What is really needed to make a creep fun is a faster acceleration to the mid ranks-- so you can become competitive quicker-- and actually foster a real competition.

While I don't agree with every single change that has been made (on either side), I appreciate the attention PvMP is getting in this update. (Especially since it's the only true VIP-exclusive benefit. It's good to see some of our subscription fees are actually being spent on this game system.)

It's unclear to me how the changes for creeps can be tested, since it's not possible to copy creep characters to Bullroarer, and there's no facility to auto-grant ranks, DP, coin, and stones to creeps.

I am really exited!
Im just glad that the dev's still make updates for this game.
I think that some people just complain about everything. You'll be mad if they don't make updates and you'll be mad when they do make updates. so why do you people even play the game???

I fricken love this game and I support the changes!

I would also like to know the reason for moving Lie in Wait to Rank 6. I mean, it's not like the Weaver was the most powerful Creep out there. In fact, we are pretty fragile overall. The only advantage we had was our ambush abilities, being able to pick a vulnerable target.

Now, Weavers will be little more than DoT ranged attackers hiding behind WL's and Reavers. I don't get the idea behind moving it. What's the difference in Lie in Wait and the Warg's stealth, except we don't get to move around?

I just don't get it. Can it be explained WHY this was neccessary please?

Runic = Relics? So you can use these in any relic slot on any LI? Can you put multiple on the same LI? Is there only the one per class?

Gating Lie in Wait to Rank 6? Are you out of your minds?

Nothing much to say about Freeps as it already been said (even if part of me say yay to 10% to the renown gain, the other half says that we will see more Captain-General around and make the high rank meaningless).

About the creeps..

Black Arrow ~ edit, not it is not that much ok ~
Defiler, is a yay
Reaver, I guess it is ok as well.
Pups, ahahahahahahahhahahahahahhah ridiculous.. *
Warleader, so moving him closer to the captain ? /puke
Weaver : I guess the hatchling pet is ok, LiW at R6 is nay.


* More power to the stealther ? at least this is how I'm seeing it.. I hope someday you'll realize that stealth and range alienate pvp and change this to something more sane.

The fracture change was a HUGE boost for Warleaders and is much appreciated. The Banner trait will require some looking into, Class traits are already full of non negotiables as it is and we just run out of slots. The -25% CD on melee skills is pretty meh. It'll mean Warleaders can get Fracture off for interrupts more often, but that's it since we don't have any new skills to add into the damage rotation. That was a bit of a disappointment for me at least, but maybe with Isengard.

The Runic thing is a big deal and has added some serious reasons for PvPing freepside even if you don't expect to amass all your armor. But some of these effects look like really bad ideas, in particular the -incoming healing ones. I sure hope those two debuffs are potable.


And finally, Is Jared the PvMP Dev or not? It does not say.

Will there be a refund of destiny points to those creeps who already purchased the skills that new creeps start with?

Originally Posted by SvennEthir

Runic = Relics? So you can use these in any relic slot on any LI? Can you put multiple on the same LI? Is there only the one per class?

I too am confused about the Runics, where they come from and what slots they go in. Will they be rank based? I also hope the armor is made rank-based, and not available via pvmp, and that the +renown is removed. Empty hopes, I know.

When you make so many changes at once its bound to catch some flack. That being said I am just glad to know some love is coming to the moors and I think this is just the beginning of some of the most love we have seen out there in a long time. Even if everyone cannot agree that these changes are for the best, I think we can at least be thankful something is being done out there.

The main gripe I am seeing so far is how a skill is being gated to rank 6 now. Like rank 6 is really that hard to obtain.. It takes like 1-2 months tops if you are dedicated and can spend a few hours a week.

Cue the QQ Queue!

Thanks for the write-up, Jared. As a guard, I will give a small smile in your honor every time I get a TTK parry, which seems very, very often.

Originally Posted by Ivaneus

Is Jared the PvMP Dev or not? It does not say.

Our systems team works on multiple aspects of LOTRO. It's inaccurate to say there is a "pvMP dev" or a "minstrel dev", and so on. Decisions are made by the team and an individual is assigned to do the work. Jared is a member of the systems team.

Developer diaries are usually written by the individual or individuals who did the work they're writing about.

I am extremely discouraged by these changes.

The Freeps got some major bonus's - revised armor, new abilities, new legendary relics to slot. Combined with the last several iterations on the character classes themselves, the Freeps now have overwhelming advantages in PvMP.

The changes to the monsters are real nice for someone starting from scratch, but from about rank 3 onwards, represent significant decreases in the utility and usability of the various classes.

The BA has had its major redeeming attack turned from a 5 second timer to a 20 second, significantly reducing the ability of the class to operate with any effective DPS. It already has low DPS due to all the Freep debuffs that get applied to them, and as most of their larger DPS 1 shots are inductions that are interrupted easily… The spider had a lot of changes that really don't do a whole lot, except make it so that it will be less likely to operate solo, as it is now going to rely a lot more on the spiderlings, which cannot hide. About the only bonus I see to the Creeps is that the defiler got changed to a ranged auto-attack class, so expect a lot of BA's to start over with new defilers soon. I expect their ranged DPS to be extremely week, but it is a healing class, so hopefully they can just out heal the slugs damage.

Overall, I expect this to be a fairly significant change to PvMP, where the Monsters just don't want to play anymore except as a huge hoard. It makes me sad.

I have a slight problem with the hunter's 6pc set bonus. while a root/snare removal sounds great in theory, attaching it to a melee attack seems rather pointless for several reasons.
1. I assume this bonus is to give the hunter a little better "flight and/or kite" ability, but at 30% it seems we are once again back to "hoping" our cc works in the moors. given the current resist rates of creeps, even if it were to happen on that 1 in 3 chance, most likely the creep(s) have resisted or potted out of whatever cc we used. so we are now back, once again, to having no real advantage.
2. This ability would be great if it were a clicky skill, but on a melee attack (even given the slow of said attack) it's highly unlikely this will be of any real use since the target will most likely be close enough to snare/root us again (thinking warg pounces as an example) or be at range therefor providing no target with which to use the skill.
3. again, if one of the thoughts is to provide the hunter with at least a modicum of escapability from the zerg, a melee attack that removes cc isn't going to save anyone from multiple creeps. i'd rather have a 30% chance to proc a temporary in-combat speed buff and/or cc immunity rather than have to turn and face the zerg to get off a melee attack that "might" release me from a snare/root. at that point, it isn't going to do a good bit of good.
Finally, the hunter has been gimped survivability wise since SoA due to the DF changes, and while i understand the reasoning behind the changes, i have never agreed with them. to say DF was overpowered because it removed the hunter from the fight or deprived creeps of infamy fails to consider dying rage does pretty much the same thing. granted, the creep dies at the end of it, but it still removes him from the fight and deprives the freeps of renown (since the only time i've seen it used is when the creep is about to die and he sprints off to die out of range). sure, the hunter is alive when he gets back to the rez circle, but the creep arrives in the rez circle just the same, making the exact same contribution to the fight that the hunter is after DFing. the only difference is the all exalted "K/D ratio" which, to my knowledge, turbine looked to downplay since they removed stars from the moors ages ago. I have no problems dying, but there comes a point when constantly being rolled by a zerg with NO ability to get out of its way gets a little old. but i digress, the point is...while the cc removal is a great idea, could we please get it in some other form other than a melee attack?

Why not give my BA a NERF bow and arrow at this rate. I understand the need for skill changes but creeps need to be able to fight Freeps solo at a decent ranking. I know Freeps work hard to customize their players but Creeps that have been spending countless hours on their toon are seeing stun locks, inability to even use their skills at close range(yes BA), and little to no depth to their character(I'm just like that other reaver). I'm sure these things are in the works(at least I hope so), but these steps show a little too much favoratism towards Freeps. Time to spin the table around and make freeps fear us creeps. It's time to narrow the 3 to 1 vs ratio.

ps do free to play people actually have to pay for this unbalanced mess? That's an actual question that if answered "yes" is met with a disgusted look (I'm a vip member I just feel bad for the people who stil have to pay for that grinding experience).

One thing I would like to add, though, is that I do appreciate the fact that you are working on the PvMP system. I expect that what we are currently seeing on the monster side is a relative band-aid, until Isengard is released with the new level 70 content and the new PvMP zone.
I seriously doubt with the changes as they currently are that I will be playing it much until then, however. Please, as you move forward, realize just how powerful the Freeps are and just how much weaker the Creeps have gotten since Mirkwood.

True Heroics bonus ? For PVMP? What about a dire need cooldown bonus with a set of 3, anything but true heroics.

Originally Posted by duamarth

I too am confused about the Runics, where they come from and what slots they go in. Will they be rank based? I also hope the armor is made rank-based, and not available via pvmp, and that the +renown is removed. Empty hopes, I know.

I dont think you will be able to slot two on an LI, I think they have a "Unique" atrib kinda like Ril-mir so you can't get above one per LI.

So are the PvMP sets comprarable to the PvE sets or do they fall along the lines of "Moria sets are still best even though we keep implementing newer, inferior armour"? I've only dabbled in PvMP and while it was sometimes fun, sometimes frustrating I simply don't know if this is true incentive for those that don't regularly PvMP.

Originally Posted by artizzle

ps do free to play people actually have to pay for this unbalanced mess? That's an actual question that if answered "yes" is met with a disgusted look (I'm a vip member I just feel bad for the people who stil have to pay for that grinding experience).

Right now, monster play is VIP only. However, with Isengard I believe it is going to be opened up to all players.

We still have creep skills tied to rank, proving that a real solution is not being strived for. When will creeps graduate from being an after thought or slight diversion for the Freep players who are catered to hand over foot. Freeps get power boost after power boost with every new raid armour set every retool and every patch and yet all creeps get is the nerf bat firedot at 20s CD. LOL Are you trying to drive the few remaining creeps from the game entirely? On any given night in the moors the creep force is typically 50-80% rank 5 or lower .. WHY? Because the average player begins to get the gist of .. pretty soon it will be months and then quarters and then years between new skills being aquired and they decide that the reward doesnt justify the means. Freeps say but it takes awhile to reach 65, but this argument doesnt hold water in comparison to the amount of time spent trying to get a fully equiped creep. Is there even ONE fully skilled creep ANYWHERE??? and what happens 10 years from now when there are a few rank 15s around ( i say a few because nobody with any sense would play for the 3 years or more between rank14 and 15 to get ONE Skill) creeps will be overpowered and the nerf bat will come. So WHY spend 5-10 years makeing rank 15? Who would undertake such a task as their entertainment? The answer .. only a fool. Thats why the moors is as dead as it is on many servers and its why it gets worse everytime they say we are gonna fix the moors and come with these silly nonsense fixes. IF you want to fix the moors creep skills cannot be tied to rank when freep skills are not, this seems painfully obvious to anyone whos spent a few years in the moors (creepside) and is now faced with the task of spending thousands of hours for 1 rank increase and 1 new skill. Come on guys wake up.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Our systems team works on multiple aspects of LOTRO. It's inaccurate to say there is a "pvMP dev" or a "minstrel dev", and so on. Decisions are made by the team and an individual is assigned to do the work. Jared is a member of the systems team.

Developer diaries are usually written by the individual or individuals who did the work they're writing about.

ya know..this has been said time and time again...yet...folks dont seem to want to remember...

maybe this should be stickied in each and every class forum and the pvmp forum.

Originally Posted by RileyCraven

I dont think you will be able to slot two on an LI, I think they have a "Unique" atrib kinda like Ril-mir so you can't get above one per LI.

That's what I figured. But the other stuff is correct? Then I'm really curious if the ones listed are the only ones in the game currently or if we will see Insignias with other bonuses showing up elsewhere. I really like this idea for the LI system. I'd love to see a lot more different types of relics.

Originally Posted by Spacy

The BA has had its major redeeming attack turned from a 5 second timer to a 20 second, significantly reducing the ability of the class to operate with any effective DPS. It already has low DPS due to all the Freep debuffs that get applied to them, and as most of their larger DPS 1 shots are inductions that are interrupted easily…

I could say the same thing about the hunter...it's not fun when pen shot hits a creep for ~200 damage, and crits are as rare as universal joy over the latest patch. not to mention 50% of my cc is resisted, but it is what it is for the ranged class and i've learned to live with it. look at the bright side, you still have moving target and no big X on VT.

"The BA has had its major redeeming attack turned from a 5 second timer to a 20 second,"

A 20 second cool down is way to much for flaming arrow that does little damage now.

Originally Posted by myfreezr2

Increasing the cooldown on Flaming Arrow to 20 seconds? No! It does little enough damage as it is. It can be removed with a pot (and an LM can remove 3 of them at once). 10 seconds maybe. 15 even. But no more.

Ummm... Last I checked, it couldn't be removed at all and could stack 5 or so deep.

Still you will have to grind DoF for Brilliant Stones... like 12 Stones per set and 48 Chieftain Brooches? LoL

Guess you can't get PvP armour by PvP'ing.

You'll keep only seeing around 5 or 6 people per server with a full PvP set.

Guess BA's will finally have to learn what those OTHER skills do. Sorry your easy button went away.

I doubt I'll bother acquiring any of this armor. The fact they didn't show the stats, just these special Moors additions makes me think this is yet another set of gear that isn't as good as the Moria set. As for the Moors additions, the hunter stuff looks basically useless. Oh, wow. Stealth detection. Woopie, I'll be able to see the wargs a little quicker before they kill me. The Low Cut change is equally worthless. A one in three chance to clear CC and it's melee? Unless you're up against a solo creep, you'll just be CCed up again by the zerg.

Speaking from a mostly Creep PvMP player's perspective, I think these changes are well intentioned but lacking when it comes to addressing the general imbalance between the Creeps and Freeps. It is great that new Creeps will get some extra health and a proper set of skills to start with. However, the proposed changes to the ranged damage classes seem to be counterproductive to how Creeps work.

Freeps enjoy instant alpha/nuke damage and a **** ton of CCs. The Creeps primary ranged damage isn't the same type of kill. Until this patch, the primary method has been to accumulate DoTs onto targets - often stacking the same DoT several times. From the perspective of the spider, the new changes have taken 3 pets - who have the ability to each drop DoTs and damage on a target and each contributes to adding confusion to the ranks of Freeps in a blob - and reduced it to one pet who can do damage but is much less of a threat due to the inability to stack DoTs from 3 separate pets. In addition the pet is limited to out of combat summon only! Why? LM have no such limit on their single pet. And there is concern about how the pet will work with the Spider's ability to dig in. After trying the changes on test server as of yesterday, the pet acts like a "I'm over here flag" cause it can't dig in. Releasing that pet gets rid of the flag but of course that means you can't activate it when you attempt to jump onto a target because you are now in combat.

The BA is the real ranged damage platform of the Creep forces. The changes to Flaming Arrow eliminate the NEEDED ability to spam fire DoTs on the hordes of Freep tanks who have the ability to survive the stupid amount of incoming fire. Guardian's extremely high BPE, Shield Wall, and Sprint allow them to get away with pushing right into the faces of the Creep forces and yet get away whenever they feel like it. That fire DoT needs to be attempted many times to ensure that it actually lands. In addition, there has to be something as damaging as the Champion AoE and Hunter AoE spam. While Flaming Arrow isn't technically an AoE skill, it provides the same type of suppression - or it used to... Let us not forget the Freeps not only have pots to deal with the DoTs that BAs and Weavers use, the Freeps also get skills and jewelry which can clear the same. So the Creeps' primary method of ranged engagement is now even easier to ignore.

I applaud the Devs for their attempts to make the rest of the Creep classes more in line with their Freep counterparts. However, I think the devs overlooked something else when they handed out the new skills for each class. These new skills for the Reaver, Defiler, BA, and Weaver take trait slots to equip. First off, the Creeps have less trait slots than the Freeps. But second, the trait slots are already used on these classes. The devs might as well as not bothered because the majority of the new skills are not worth pulling something else out of the traits. New slots are required here. In addition, the devs neglected to address the vast CC difference between the Freeps and Creeps. The Creeps still do not have something which allows for battlefield mobility that the Freeps enjoy with their horses. Lastly the devs need to address the lack of alternate leveling paths for Creeps and map gathering methods. The vast array of ideas on the forums about how to fix this can't be put into this post. However, simply ignoring these concerns doesn't bode well for those of us who want to try and bring more of our Kin brethren into the Creep fold. It simply isn't very appealing to have only one way of getting extremely critical items and skills.

Sorry devs, but while good intentioned for the Creeps, you failed to look at the big picture. Can you try again please?

So an RK can hit me for +5K damage, but Flaming Arrow gets nerfed again? Really?
My suggestion is we flip all the outposts red and allow all the keeps to remain blue at all times. No more stones and brooches for the freeps.

It's nice to finally see some attention to pvmp!

It would be nice if the dev team took a second look at the Champion set though. -25% True Heroics cooldown is completely useless, and has nothing to do with pvmp. A -25% Boast cooldown would (being 100% honest here) have more use in the moors.

Unless of course Champions are having True Heroics revamped with the new update as well...?

Same with Ferocious... This set assumes most champs still trait Ferocious Strikes in the moors (which they don't... most go CBR, CB, RB)... Ferocious is far less DPS efficient than Brutal, who would use it? Revamp to Ferocious incoming? =P