Thread: Dev Diary Feedback: Update 2 Monster Play Dev Diary

In today's developer diary Jared Pruett discusses the changes to Monster Play in Update 2!

You can read more and post your comments here!

I think the guardian changes look pretty good but I'd have to test them to confirm, the tutorial will be good for newer players.

I'm not quite understanding the idea behind moving the weaver's Lie In Wait to rank 6, but my main question is how will it be handled for characters that already have this skill now that aren't R6 yet. Will it be disabled until we hit R6 or will it still work since we already have it?

Originally Posted by Arangarlas

I'm not quite understanding the idea behind moving the weaver's Lie In Wait to rank 6, but my main question is how will it be handled for characters that already have this skill now that aren't R6 yet. Will it be disabled until we hit R6 or will it still work since we already have it?

It'll probably be removed just like the skills were for freeps who 'no longer meet the requirements' when they changed the level at which certain skills were available.

Looks neat, the burglar six piece bonus looks really useful with all the spiders and wargs throwing bleeds and poisons everywhere.

Increasing the cooldown on Flaming Arrow to 20 seconds? No! It does little enough damage as it is. It can be removed with a pot (and an LM can remove 3 of them at once). 10 seconds maybe. 15 even. But no more.

Originally Posted by myfreezr2

Increasing the cooldown on Flaming Arrow to 20 seconds? No! It does little enough damage as it is. It can be removed with a pot (and an LM can remove 3 of them at once). 10 seconds maybe. 15 even. But no more.

Ummm... Last I checked, it couldn't be removed at all and could stack 5 or so deep.

OMG. Has this dev even played PvMP?

Giving every freep class more CC skills - some with 100% effect if using 2 insignias, is ridiculous. The CC balance between the two sides is already very lopsided and this only greatly exacerbates the issue.

Secondly, the freeps also already have a strong advantage in ranged combat (especially in conjunction to their superior CC) and by increasing the Fire Arrow cooldown by 400% is pure stupidity.

What options do creeps have to fight back? Pretty much none...

Inferior Crowd Control - so playing smart doesn't help
Inferior Group Oriented Skills - so teamwork doesn't help much
Inferior Ranged DPS - higher CDs, less damage, creeps effects removed with a potion
Inferior Melee Combat - compare guards to reavers or burgs to wargs

Looks like RIFT is gonna get a big influx of former-LotRO pvpers.

While I don't agree with every single change that has been made (on either side), I appreciate the attention PvMP is getting in this update. (Especially since it's the only true VIP-exclusive benefit. It's good to see some of our subscription fees are actually being spent on this game system.)

It's unclear to me how the changes for creeps can be tested, since it's not possible to copy creep characters to Bullroarer, and there's no facility to auto-grant ranks, DP, coin, and stones to creeps.

Runic = Relics? So you can use these in any relic slot on any LI? Can you put multiple on the same LI? Is there only the one per class?

We still have creep skills tied to rank, proving that a real solution is not being strived for. When will creeps graduate from being an after thought or slight diversion for the Freep players who are catered to hand over foot. Freeps get power boost after power boost with every new raid armour set every retool and every patch and yet all creeps get is the nerf bat firedot at 20s CD. LOL Are you trying to drive the few remaining creeps from the game entirely? On any given night in the moors the creep force is typically 50-80% rank 5 or lower .. WHY? Because the average player begins to get the gist of .. pretty soon it will be months and then quarters and then years between new skills being aquired and they decide that the reward doesnt justify the means. Freeps say but it takes awhile to reach 65, but this argument doesnt hold water in comparison to the amount of time spent trying to get a fully equiped creep. Is there even ONE fully skilled creep ANYWHERE??? and what happens 10 years from now when there are a few rank 15s around ( i say a few because nobody with any sense would play for the 3 years or more between rank14 and 15 to get ONE Skill) creeps will be overpowered and the nerf bat will come. So WHY spend 5-10 years makeing rank 15? Who would undertake such a task as their entertainment? The answer .. only a fool. Thats why the moors is as dead as it is on many servers and its why it gets worse everytime they say we are gonna fix the moors and come with these silly nonsense fixes. IF you want to fix the moors creep skills cannot be tied to rank when freep skills are not, this seems painfully obvious to anyone whos spent a few years in the moors (creepside) and is now faced with the task of spending thousands of hours for 1 rank increase and 1 new skill. Come on guys wake up.

The changes to freep rewards are good-- they make the items much more compelling as rewards.

However, there still seems to be a fundamental disconnect in terms of making sure people are given good incentives to play a creep. If you're playing a freep, you're making your main character stronger-- which is good incentive. You're playing with a character you're comfortable with. You're also likely playing with your usual kinship, etc. But for a creep, you have basically no carry over in gains for your main (you can BARELY count destiny points). You may have some kin members coming for kicks, but it is unlikely your entire kin is playing their creeps as often as they play their freeps. The upcoming changes give some decent buffs for players to "step through the door" of playing a creep by making them stronger at the start, but they do nothing to address the massive climb needed in order to advance as a creep.

Freeps get the benefit of gear for their troubles. All creeps get is the fun of being a creep-- and since as a creep, you're almost always against level 65's with good gear, this can be a big uphill climb from the start. What is really needed to make a creep fun is a faster acceleration to the mid ranks-- so you can become competitive quicker-- and actually foster a real competition.

I am really exited!
Im just glad that the dev's still make updates for this game.
I think that some people just complain about everything. You'll be mad if they don't make updates and you'll be mad when they do make updates. so why do you people even play the game???

I fricken love this game and I support the changes!

Nothing much to say about Freeps as it already been said (even if part of me say yay to 10% to the renown gain, the other half says that we will see more Captain-General around and make the high rank meaningless).

About the creeps..

Black Arrow ~ edit, not it is not that much ok ~
Defiler, is a yay
Reaver, I guess it is ok as well.
Pups, ahahahahahahahhahahahahahhah ridiculous.. *
Warleader, so moving him closer to the captain ? /puke
Weaver : I guess the hatchling pet is ok, LiW at R6 is nay.


* More power to the stealther ? at least this is how I'm seeing it.. I hope someday you'll realize that stealth and range alienate pvp and change this to something more sane.

I would also like to know the reason for moving Lie in Wait to Rank 6. I mean, it's not like the Weaver was the most powerful Creep out there. In fact, we are pretty fragile overall. The only advantage we had was our ambush abilities, being able to pick a vulnerable target.

Now, Weavers will be little more than DoT ranged attackers hiding behind WL's and Reavers. I don't get the idea behind moving it. What's the difference in Lie in Wait and the Warg's stealth, except we don't get to move around?

I just don't get it. Can it be explained WHY this was neccessary please?

Speaking from a mostly Creep PvMP player's perspective, I think these changes are well intentioned but lacking when it comes to addressing the general imbalance between the Creeps and Freeps. It is great that new Creeps will get some extra health and a proper set of skills to start with. However, the proposed changes to the ranged damage classes seem to be counterproductive to how Creeps work.

Freeps enjoy instant alpha/nuke damage and a **** ton of CCs. The Creeps primary ranged damage isn't the same type of kill. Until this patch, the primary method has been to accumulate DoTs onto targets - often stacking the same DoT several times. From the perspective of the spider, the new changes have taken 3 pets - who have the ability to each drop DoTs and damage on a target and each contributes to adding confusion to the ranks of Freeps in a blob - and reduced it to one pet who can do damage but is much less of a threat due to the inability to stack DoTs from 3 separate pets. In addition the pet is limited to out of combat summon only! Why? LM have no such limit on their single pet. And there is concern about how the pet will work with the Spider's ability to dig in. After trying the changes on test server as of yesterday, the pet acts like a "I'm over here flag" cause it can't dig in. Releasing that pet gets rid of the flag but of course that means you can't activate it when you attempt to jump onto a target because you are now in combat.

The BA is the real ranged damage platform of the Creep forces. The changes to Flaming Arrow eliminate the NEEDED ability to spam fire DoTs on the hordes of Freep tanks who have the ability to survive the stupid amount of incoming fire. Guardian's extremely high BPE, Shield Wall, and Sprint allow them to get away with pushing right into the faces of the Creep forces and yet get away whenever they feel like it. That fire DoT needs to be attempted many times to ensure that it actually lands. In addition, there has to be something as damaging as the Champion AoE and Hunter AoE spam. While Flaming Arrow isn't technically an AoE skill, it provides the same type of suppression - or it used to... Let us not forget the Freeps not only have pots to deal with the DoTs that BAs and Weavers use, the Freeps also get skills and jewelry which can clear the same. So the Creeps' primary method of ranged engagement is now even easier to ignore.

I applaud the Devs for their attempts to make the rest of the Creep classes more in line with their Freep counterparts. However, I think the devs overlooked something else when they handed out the new skills for each class. These new skills for the Reaver, Defiler, BA, and Weaver take trait slots to equip. First off, the Creeps have less trait slots than the Freeps. But second, the trait slots are already used on these classes. The devs might as well as not bothered because the majority of the new skills are not worth pulling something else out of the traits. New slots are required here. In addition, the devs neglected to address the vast CC difference between the Freeps and Creeps. The Creeps still do not have something which allows for battlefield mobility that the Freeps enjoy with their horses. Lastly the devs need to address the lack of alternate leveling paths for Creeps and map gathering methods. The vast array of ideas on the forums about how to fix this can't be put into this post. However, simply ignoring these concerns doesn't bode well for those of us who want to try and bring more of our Kin brethren into the Creep fold. It simply isn't very appealing to have only one way of getting extremely critical items and skills.

Sorry devs, but while good intentioned for the Creeps, you failed to look at the big picture. Can you try again please?

I have a slight problem with the hunter's 6pc set bonus. while a root/snare removal sounds great in theory, attaching it to a melee attack seems rather pointless for several reasons.
1. I assume this bonus is to give the hunter a little better "flight and/or kite" ability, but at 30% it seems we are once again back to "hoping" our cc works in the moors. given the current resist rates of creeps, even if it were to happen on that 1 in 3 chance, most likely the creep(s) have resisted or potted out of whatever cc we used. so we are now back, once again, to having no real advantage.
2. This ability would be great if it were a clicky skill, but on a melee attack (even given the slow of said attack) it's highly unlikely this will be of any real use since the target will most likely be close enough to snare/root us again (thinking warg pounces as an example) or be at range therefor providing no target with which to use the skill.
3. again, if one of the thoughts is to provide the hunter with at least a modicum of escapability from the zerg, a melee attack that removes cc isn't going to save anyone from multiple creeps. i'd rather have a 30% chance to proc a temporary in-combat speed buff and/or cc immunity rather than have to turn and face the zerg to get off a melee attack that "might" release me from a snare/root. at that point, it isn't going to do a good bit of good.
Finally, the hunter has been gimped survivability wise since SoA due to the DF changes, and while i understand the reasoning behind the changes, i have never agreed with them. to say DF was overpowered because it removed the hunter from the fight or deprived creeps of infamy fails to consider dying rage does pretty much the same thing. granted, the creep dies at the end of it, but it still removes him from the fight and deprives the freeps of renown (since the only time i've seen it used is when the creep is about to die and he sprints off to die out of range). sure, the hunter is alive when he gets back to the rez circle, but the creep arrives in the rez circle just the same, making the exact same contribution to the fight that the hunter is after DFing. the only difference is the all exalted "K/D ratio" which, to my knowledge, turbine looked to downplay since they removed stars from the moors ages ago. I have no problems dying, but there comes a point when constantly being rolled by a zerg with NO ability to get out of its way gets a little old. but i digress, the point is...while the cc removal is a great idea, could we please get it in some other form other than a melee attack?

baby steps help lead to balance. none of these changes are baby steps.

why was Milithions post deleted?


PLEASE, devs, explain to us the idea behind these changes. Where is PVMP going to? Will the F2P player be able to join the ranks of zerging creeps, and you are buffing freeps (and nerfing creeps) now because of this?

@thisisanewname: I disagree about this "biggest nerf". the nerf to spider webs was the biggest nerf in my opinion. ok, it was OP. hunters have something better now, but its not used that often, because its not needed.

Originally Posted by DorianFalkenmond

@thisisanewname: I disagree about this "biggest nerf". the nerf to spider webs was the biggest nerf in my opinion. ok, it was OP. hunters have something better now, but its not used that often, because its not needed.

while the removal of our unbreakable 8 sec root was a pretty major nerf we did get a longer (in theory) root in its place, while the lie in wait change actually removes 1 of the most used skills by weavers (especially to the spider who stay in spider "ambush" type groups) while this nerf won't effect as many people i still think its probably a bigger nerf. cuz its a nerf to the people who need the skill the most as there really isn't much going for low ranked spiders since they can't do a whole lot of dps ,can't do much (if any ) cc, and if something even looks at them they die lol

Could Warleaders at least get Mobilize on par with Hunter's Find the Path skill so that it doesn't toggle off during combat? We get it that we're not your favorite but at least look us in the eye occasionally.

If you're going to make Flaming Arrow have a 20 second CD make BA's other skills have a lower CD. I don't want to be reduced to spamming strong pull.