Thread: Spar - Who we beat, who beats us

Let's post here our experiences at sparring other classes at max level, which classes did you beat and which have beaten you, which were harder or easier, etc.

Burg - Haven't fought
Capt - Won. I believe it's not really hard to beat captains, you'll probably have more morale, heal better and dps better.
Champ - Won. They always take the headstart on DPS, but there will be a moment where your morale will start recovering and his won't.
Guardian - Won. What can i say? Wardens are just > than Guardians in most aspects.
Hunter - Won. I believe hunters have a big advantage with range, though with inductions, he won't really be able to kite you to death. Not too hard.
LM - Haven't fought
Minstrel - Lost. I hate sparring those guys, they just kite like hell and dps like hell. Couldn't get'em to half morale.
RK - Lost. Way too much kiting and dpsing again, though it didn't feel as hard as the minstrel
Warden - Won. Sorry mates, i was just a better warden than you guys were.

P.S.: All sparring invites were not made by me, they were all at 65 and with players with around the same gear as myself.

Hampering jav duration + the javelin cooldown trait are your best bet against minstrels and RKs.

Although, I think overall the game system is flawed for PVP. Melee need to be literally on top of a moving foe to hit which gives an even bigger advantage to Minis and RKs. An increase to melee and melee skill range by about 2m should do it, or, if possible, a range increase on melee only on moving targets.

Although, at least a few RK skills need/cause them to pause. Minis just never need to stop running.

Anyways, sounds about right. Never fought an LM, but I'd assume they could kite too (and I've no idea how well their dazes work in PVP, but that could be an annoyance). Burglars I'd assume would rely a lot on constantly circling, so it'd depend on how well you keep up with their circling.

I have my opinions on observing good wardens on vilya spar other classes, but will leave commentary as to those classes to wardens already maxed and doing same (I am not there yet).

As to wardens v guards:

Actually very well balanced imo. If the warden goes full redline, and the guard goes OP, there will likely be a winner, imo the guard should actually win if he is good..but have also seen great wardens waltz over "lesser guards."

If the warden is shield and the guard is tanking spec with shield up, the spar should end in a draw, with both toons probably above 1/2 morale at the expiration of spar timer.

When the warden is shield spec'd and the guard goes OP (instead of tank build and using shield), this is where the fights are the MOST exiciting and can go either way based upon timing of respective skills, some luck on stuns and FM's and how long/whether the warden turtles for morale soon enough. Some fights still go the distance and to a draw, the warden snatching victory before going down with some well timed heals making them unkillable, OR the guard can just plain get USED UP early in the fight and the warden can out heal and out power-surf them into oblivion.

IMO...for spars guard v. ward....shield warden ~= OP guard. I almost always go OP and play for that chance of victory with the concomitant risk of loss v. wardens (instead of playing it safe and tanking for a guaranteed draw)...though if a warden is seemingly "too cocky," I will on occasion trait full tank and go into max survival mode and equipment, and laugh when I have higher morale and power at the time the expected draw occurs. Waste of 3 minutes of our lives, but a good object lessen for wardens who do not seem to realize just how nice it is for them to be able to spec for "dps mode" while actually having their full block capabilties too (which OP guards can't do and also suffer a -5% to our evade and significantly increased power use all as penalties for using OP stance).

Anywa, ward's are def NOT so clearly >guards, as the OP suggests, when it comes to spars, especially when both classes are being played by people of = skill.

Originally Posted by DackRover

I have my opinions on observing good wardens on vilya spar other classes, but will leave commentary as to those classes to wardens already maxed and doing same (I am not there yet).

As to wardens v guards:

Actually very well balanced imo. If the warden goes full redline, and the guard goes OP, there will likely be a winner, imo the guard should actually win if he is good..but have also seen great wardens waltz over "lesser guards."

If the warden is shield and the guard is tanking spec with shield up, the spar w
should end in a draw. qith both toons probably above 1/2 morale at the expiration of spar timer.

Whe the warden is shield spec'd and the guard goes OP (instread of tank build and using shield), this is where the fights are the MOST exiciting and can go either way based upon timing of respective skills, some luck on stuns and FM's and how long/whether the warden turtles for morale soon enough. Some fights go the distance and to a draw, the warden snatching victory before going down with well timed heals making them unkillable, OR the guard can just plain get USED UP early in the fight and the warden can out heal and out power-surf them into oblivion.

IMO...for spars guard v. ward....shield warden ~= OP guard. I almost always go OP and play for the chance of victory with the risk of loss v. wardens (instead of playing safe and tanking for draw)...though if a warden is too cocky, I will on occasion trait full tank and go into max survival mode and laugh when I have higher morale and power at the time the draw kicks in.

Ward's are def NOT so clearly >guards, as the OP suggests, when it comes to spars, when both classes are being played by people of = skill, that is.

Guards should beat redline wardens most of the time... it's the ones who know how to combo we gotta fear.
Good shield warden will beat a guard 99% of the time in my experience... the guard has to get super lucky crits. Not just a lot, but timed so the stuns glitch out the heals while clearing the gambit panel... and then get a lot of crits too. Since guards generally spar in OP though, and wardens in shield, I'd call wardens the winner. Not absolute.


Wardens pretty much beat anything but burgs... depending on who's willing to use CDs on you of course.

Spear line I tend to draw with RK's and minis (depends on if WT, critical strike, or a bleed crits and how many lucky stuns they get). I also tend to lose against higher end burgs who are willing to expend their CD's.

Shield line I beat everything with ease except Rk's and minis, need to get very lucky to beat them in shield spec.

As to wards vs. Guards: Some of the best sparring matches I've had are against guardians. Uknown and Rahgod are the two big pvp beasts of firefoot. Spear line its close but I tend to win unless they get a stun. Shield line It's much easier but a badly times stun still kills me.

Originally Posted by Regero

As to wards vs. Guards: Some of the best sparring matches I've had are against guardians. Uknown and Rahgod are the two big pvp beasts of firefoot. Spear line its close but I tend to win unless they get a stun. Shield line It's much easier but a badly times stun still kills me.

I guess it is possible that you fight at several grades above the wardens I face on vilya, but if you are redline, the "guard gods" should be able to beat you...and if they go tank also to your shield, it should be a guaranteed draw.

Shield v. OP is very exiciting and some of the closest, down to wire matches I enjoy as well. That said...I usually getting four or more stuns/fm's during a spar v. a warden, so I assume the "unless they get a stun" part regards their getting a stun at a 'critical moment" such as before you get a heal off and then get killed instead. This is something I try to do intentionally...lull wardens into a false sense of security and NOT get their morale too low too fast so they don't just start healing early and make themselves unkillable. Hang it out there, and then pour it on fast and hard as they have been worked near half-way down. If guards catch you right and have been putting some bleeds instead of early stuns (preventing DR from settuing up), we CAN kill you in a final blitz stun stun combo toward the latter half of the fight. It takes tactics and strategy, not just living off the fruit of toon strengths...or else you trutle and heal and kite and then it becomes all about a guard just making it to the draw.

I dunno... when I spar Guards my opening technique is to use Hampering Javelin, build my defenses at range, then close in and apply bleeds before kiting again. That's not to say I kite excessively like an RK or something, but I don't just stand toe-to-toe and hammer away. Sparring Guards is certainly a fun fight though. Last time me and Unkown sparred I think we had to stop with the score tied at 2 to 2 He was in OP and I was in Spear spec.

I wanna spar you now Dack, get your butt over to Firefoot

Aren't we leaving out fight-opening tactics?

Careful-step during the countdown to the spar then spam the ambush button. Build AM/WT running up to target, then CS, WT and WoF to get a huge morale lead.

Then pop defensive buffs or w/e and take it at your own pace.

there is only 1 champion I couldn't beat shield-traited and that was Balbaroy, best champ on our server, quite possibly in the game but that's my opinion :P

anyways I sparred him 3 times in a shield and lost every time but then I swapped to spear and finally got him. Don't underestimate spear in spars is what I learned.

I still want to spar Balb... where the heck is he!? He's the last of the super awesome old school pvp beasts for me to fight.

Originally Posted by tikt4ever

Aren't we leaving out fight-opening tactics?

Careful-step during the countdown to the spar then spam the ambush button. Build AM/WT running up to target, then CS, WT and WoF to get a huge morale lead.

Then pop defensive buffs or w/e and take it at your own pace.

Does this work on guards? I thought they could pop out of the ambush with that one skill.

I've only 1v1'd maybe 1 or 2 guards in Vilya but i really don't have the evidence to back up who is better. In most cases a Shield traited capstoned warden should be able to go toe to toe with a guard.

Champs:quite simple to beat on a basis of 1v1.
HNT: once you slow them, they're dead.
LM: never have beaten one, the chain stuns/pets, it doesn't work out for me.
Burglar: somewhat simple. A good burglar can kill a warden with stuns and what not, but heavy DPS (WT with possible crit, and a good positional WoF) should take burglars down.
RK: not even gonna tackle this one, a good RK should blow you up and get at even enough distance to DPS you down. If you manage to get up close and personal, start using the Hamp Jav + legacy and DPS before you die. (if you manage to start the spar with ambush the RK will most likely lose.)
Minstrel: i've sparred very few minstrels but it's somewhat the same deal with the RK.
Capt: Not enough evidence here since I've only sparred 1 captain before.
Warden: I've never sparred another WDN but I would love to try it one day.

From a PVP standard, your friends are going to be Hamp Jav legacy and ambush duration. Ambushes are important if you want to get the edge. I wouldn't use it on classes with bonus buffs though (i.e. burglars)

Originally Posted by SoldierJ

Does this work on guards? I thought they could pop out of the ambush with that one skill.

As long as you stay out of range, you can stun without issues.

Originally Posted by DackRover

I guess it is possible that you fight at several grades above the wardens I face on vilya, but if you are redline, the "guard gods" should be able to beat you...and if they go tank also to your shield, it should be a guaranteed draw.

Shield v. OP is very exiciting and some of the closest, down to wire matches I enjoy as well. That said...I usually getting four or more stuns/fm's during a spar v. a warden, so I assume the "unless they get a stun" part regards their getting a stun at a 'critical moment" such as before you get a heal off and then get killed instead. This is something I try to do intentionally...lull wardens into a false sense of security and NOT get their morale too low too fast so they don't just start healing early and make themselves unkillable. Hang it out there, and then pour it on fast and hard as they have been worked near half-way down. If guards catch you right and have been putting some bleeds instead of early stuns (preventing DR from settuing up), we CAN kill you in a final blitz stun stun combo toward the latter half of the fight. It takes tactics and strategy, not just living off the fruit of toon strengths...or else you trutle and heal and kite and then it becomes all about a guard just making it to the draw.

Yeah... it's really a mind game. I find that when I spar wardens it's tends to go one way or the other. I can usually tell 10 seconds in how it's going to go... I sparred vua (in spear) 4 times- 3 I beat him with no CDs, not even charge. The other, I popped every single CD I had and he ended with 3k health. In shield I get the same sense, but a good shield warden always seems to outdo me a little bit- that is I have the obvious edge, 6k to their 600 morale, but they come back with their uber wadeness and wreck me. I only have 1 win against vua in shield spec... but a fair bit of close wins where a slightly less uber waden would have lost.

Originally Posted by jeedai

As long as you stay out of range, you can stun without issues.

Keep in mind that a guardian's targetted melee range is (or should be if they're doing it right) 4.8 meters. They will be spamming the button if you are within 10, so be uber careful if you use ambush.

Originally Posted by tikt4ever

Aren't we leaving out fight-opening tactics?

Careful-step during the countdown to the spar then spam the ambush button. Build AM/WT running up to target, then CS, WT and WoF to get a huge morale lead.

Then pop defensive buffs or w/e and take it at your own pace.

Most that I fight find it unnecessary and kinda "unsportsmanlike" to begin a "fair start duel" of another tank class by hitting a 3 minute non-combat cd before the spar even begins...but if it is done/relied upon, guards can generally take it better than most...and can also do some tactical things depending on the environment to los, mitigate against the stealth / make it possible to detect and strike and be close enough to TtT if ambush is then still used...you look funny as the big gun gets stuffed in yo faces

I am sure our spar to be an epic event Tammar

Originally Posted by DackRover

Most that I fight find it unnecessary and kinda "unsportsmanlike" to begin a "fair start duel" of another tank class by hitting a 3 minute non-combat cd before the spar even begins...

I think it's fair that a Warden can open with their single 3 minute cooldown if the Guard is going to be using several 2-5 minute cooldowns throughout the fight (Charge, Pledge, Warrior's Heart, Turn the Tables...)

Let's do some spars on Bullroarer when the server comes up soon.
Red Line:
Mini- Usually win, unless they get monster crits
RK- Win every time with ambush, 50% without, every time if WT crits
Guards- Beat decent/pretty good guards 85% of time, extremely good guard (talking only like 2 on my server) 50%, once again if you think you're all that I'd love to spar you on bullroarer
Wardens- >95% if fighting other spear traited wardens, if you think you are the best and want to spar me, let's set
something up on bullroarer in the future. I have a winning record against every warden on my server spear vs. spear, still have yet to find someone that can beat me consistently, and I'd love to find someone better, so please send me a forum message or something
Champs- Win almost every time, unless they dev high 3ks on remorseless twice in a row in one spar, or almost all brutals crit
Loremaster- Win almost every time, unless they use every single CD, in which depends on luck
Hunter- Win almost every single time, except for one hunter on my server that has beaten me like twice starting from 15m no ambush,
Captain- Win Every time
Burg- Really good ones I lose 80% of time if they double stun, if I resist one stun I win 80 of the time, no stuns> >95% of the time
Decent ones, I beat 80% of the time in spear line

Shield Line:
Cream every class except for RKs, mini's sometimes too if they get crits/use a few CDs
If you play it right shield traited against a guard in red line, you'll never lose (with my build at least)
shield line guard when one was traited that way full and used pledge and all heal CDs, I still won under 2 and a half minutes, but have yet to fight someone that can move well and play in that line

Burgs: Really really good burgs beat me 50% of the time if I'm full shield burg, and I'm only talking the really really good ones with insane DPS and gear and also insane skill
Decent ones I win 99% of the time shield

Assume for all of these spars I start out of stealth and do not ambush

Originally Posted by jeedai

I think it's fair that a Warden can open with their single 3 minute cooldown if the Guard is going to be using several 2-5 minute cooldowns throughout the fight (Charge, Pledge, Warrior's Heart, Turn the Tables...)

I'm sure you and do and are not alone...but others differ in their threshold opinions of a "fair start," and find pushing cd's before it even starts as unnecessarily seeking an "unfair start" on a class that is very very strong pvp regardless...doesn't much matter to me in any event, but if you need to seek a 500-1.5k head start just to beat another tank, then so be it.

Against burgs that do the same, it makes a lot of sense on the other hand...or as against a hunter that spams challenges to people already stealthed and after they have climbed some remote location difficult to get to for a melee class.

Everything is relative and each make our judgment calls regarding testing of our mettle in sportsmanlike fashion...some burgs self-limit the amount of cd's they use, for example, and some tactical classes restrict the amount of kiting they do.

In then end, its all in fun and need to each decide on a "code of conduct" to guide our comfort and enjoyment.

All in all it really comes down to player skill and luck. A really good hunter will beat a poorly played warden. A decent crit from Piercing Cry can make a short spar. As far as ambushing at the beginning of the spar, I see no problems with it. Just about every class has some sort of knockdown/stun whether it's in the middle of a fight or the beginning. One thing I don't see a lot of wardens doing in spars is desolation. To me it's invaluable especially against Minstrels and RKs.

Anymore I rarely shield spec in spars even against shield guards. It's too much like 2 monkeys humping a football. Same thing with 2 shield wardens. I like to go for the win, not a tie. My opinion/strat is this:

RK- CS/Ambush/HJ incoming/Crit Strike/ WT/WoF/Desolation as they are coming up. They will probably stun you but the hampering jav will allow you to finish building Desolation. The thing about RKs is that you don't want to be anywhere near them at the start because they know the ambush is coming and will throw out that AOE stun right off the bat, which happens to induct faster than Ambush. You're most likely screwed at that point. For a DPS warden this opening can come close to one-shotting the RK if you get some nice crits.

Hunters- Same opening but trickier. You have to know the timer on your CS induction as there is about 3 seconds of complete invisibility afterward. Same thing with hunter's camo. If you hit it before they hit theirs they will see you first. Careful Step at the last possible second. If the hunter is sharp and have their CDs up, they can RoTs and run out of range, go Burn Hot and ruin your day. Spam the interrupts.

Champs- Same opening except no Desolation. You have to get away from them quickly to avoid an opening horn which should allow you to get a couple more javs in. (If they are running CBR then of course ambush won't work. I still like to CS and Ambush(for the crit) and WoF if I can work out the positional.) If they are any good they will hit sprint as soon as they come up and horn you when they catch you. After that you should be dotting them up with MB, Deso or whatever your favorite DOT is. Once sprint is down DOT kite them traveling through them to build and then release. Keep HJ up.

Guards- Pretty much the same as champs. I always try to get just in jav range for the Ambush and range them down to start. As they come in build WT and Dot kite.

Minstrals- Same as RKs.

Captains- I just go toe to toe with them. If they get some lucky crits or IHW/LS in I will range kite to catch up. Capts are easier than hunters.

Burgs- A good burg is a beast and I think these fights really come down to who crits the most. Most know to NEVER ambush or stun a burg. Find Footing will definitely cause you to loose that fight. As soon as I come up from the stun(s) I will WT and range kite with HJ, passing through them to build and release DOTs. Wall of Steel when I can for the extra DPS and parry.

LMs- I still ambush from CS at the start of these fights mainly for the Ambush Crit (if you got the leg) and the run speed buff. It's not long but you maybe able to get in a WT before he finishes de-buffing you and mezzes. After the mez it's a kite fight. If you get in range use desolation first then spam interupts. Some LMs will forget to reapply SI so slipping Boot in there as an interrupt later in the fight could get you a CS.

Wardens- These fights really hinge on who gets the ambush. If there is no ambush I always start of with HJ and Shield Piercer. Most wardens I can out dps toe to toe. For the shield wardens I kite through, building DoTs and such. DPS warden vs shield warden comes down to keeping the shield warden away from you so as to make it harder to build their HOTs. Shield vs Shield, again is like watching paint dry and usually ends in a draw.

Again any of these fights depend on player skill and luck of the draw. I've been Champ horned and almost one-shotted with a dev remorseless. Had a spar with a burg the other day and he got some really nice crits running up his crit chain. I barely lost that one. As a general rule of thumb I always desolation and except against burgs and guards, always try to work in a boars rush or two. I do have the leg so I use it when I can. I also always spar spear traited with the capstone and the full Hele set. The removal of the recklessness debuff is really sweet.

Originally Posted by DackRover

Most that I fight find it unnecessary and kinda "unsportsmanlike" to begin a "fair start duel" of another tank class by hitting a 3 minute non-combat cd before the spar even begins...but if it is done/relied upon, guards can generally take it better than most...and can also do some tactical things depending on the environment to los, mitigate against the stealth / make it possible to detect and strike and be close enough to TtT if ambush is then still used...you look funny as the big gun gets stuffed in yo faces

I am sure our spar to be an epic event Tammar

It should also be known that I'm a wuss who never spars and disables incoming spar requests. When I pvmp, it is almost exclusively within a sizable raiding group.

Good minstrel- and I have one of the best 1v1 minis in my kin, are a real pain to take out. As long as they land their slow, there's not a ton you can do against them. Either are a cinch if you ambush to start.

Champs are easy as loong as they don't use both horns on you.

Burgs, I'm half and half on good burgs.

Same as loremasters.

Caps are simple enough.

Haven't sparred any good rks.

Hunters - can be painful if they use all their CC, but Never lost against one.

Guards wreck me. Damn.

I don't spar shield spec.

Originally Posted by tikt4ever

It should also be known that I'm a wuss who never spars and disables incoming spar requests. When I pvmp, it is almost exclusively within a sizable raiding group.

Sounds like me, except I have been into the moors a total of 3 times, got frusterated each time and left. I have too many other things to do in PVE to go into there.

Can someone explain WHY sparring is so popular? In the last two months, I have gotton 2-3 invites per day from people I do not know to spar. I don't care to spar people I know, much less id-10-ts who spam useless noise and weapon-play mixed with ground-rolls to slow down my visits to common areas. At least in the Moors, you get renown, which I understand can lead to better gear.

In shield-spec, I think I've only lost maybe to 2 classes in recent memory, burg and RK (pretty much both due to stuns/CC). All draws I can remember were vs. other shield-spec wardens with the same idea.

In spear-spec, I've lost a lot more spars, but it's more fun to fight because it's less predictable.

Originally Posted by Zydrassyl

Wardens- >95% if fighting other spear traited wardens, if you think you are the best and want to spar me, let's set
something up on bullroarer in the future. I have a winning record against every warden on my server spear vs. spear, still have yet to find someone that can beat me consistently, and I'd love to find someone better, so please send me a forum message or something

You and I are 1-1, if I remember Z, been a long time though.

As for the OP, good RKs are probably the only fight that can go either way, their low crit protection makes it smoother. Good burgs can be tough with their stun and crit ****.

I am very interested in this as I have a pretty decently well geared warden (my 3rd 65) and have recently started sparring kinnies (very good kin, probably the top raiding kin on nimrodel) and have had mixed results. I do decently well against champs. Have a tough time against our leaders guard (op) and have mixed results against other classes. I assume it is just tactics and not knowing some other classes as well as I should. I generally trait 5 shield plus 2 other masteries. I like to open with cs/ambush/wof and cs if not a guard. Do you just go full turtle and heal from the start? what heal rotation do you use? Start with 2 and move up to 5builder hots? The other problem could be virtues. I am currently morale hoarding. Valour, Justice, loyalty, Innocence, Determination (8) and have about 8100morale/2800power wearing 4moria, 1 DN (chest) and book 3 shoulders (sometimes DN shoulders) I generally use the loth crit shield, Vit 650/Might 605/Agi 620ish. Do I need to swap out det/just or loyalty for the xtra melee defense from zeal(6) and discipline(5ish now)

Champ: always beat them shield traited and good ones are 50/50 spear traited.
Guards: close fight if they pop all their cooldowns and Im shield traited. They usually win if their decent and I'm traited spear.
Burg: close fights either way if their good.
Wa(r)den: never ends if we're both shield and is a very fun fight if your both spear.
Mini: easy if spear traited and slightly more difficult if shield.
RK: easy to beat bad ones when traited spear and hard to beat good ones traited shield.
LM: same as RK.
Hunter: from the few spars I've had with hunters I beat them traited either way.

Shield for melee classes and spear for tactical. Spear against melees is always exciting and can go either way. Going shield against tactical classes can be hard since you probly won't hit the good ones with many melee skills and will rely on javelin damage.

As for creeps
Warg: easy win if shield unless their a high rank and a very close fight if spear.
Reaver: should beat me most of the time traited spear but if I'm shield its a win.
Defiler: never ends if I'm traited shield and can beat the lower ranked ones if traited spear.
WL: shield fights last until they run out of power and spear can be close.
BA: easy either way unless they get the jump on you and no LoS and/or they have Uruk Heal.

Originally Posted by jeedai

I think it's fair that a Warden can open with their single 3 minute cooldown if the Guard is going to be using several 2-5 minute cooldowns throughout the fight (Charge, Pledge, Warrior's Heart, Turn the Tables...)

I actually rarely use my CDs anymore. Charge yes, TtT yes, maybe WH. but pledge is just kind of lame... rather spar without it and work on my skill than be content to beat everyone with it. That being said, if I'm sparring in a tournament, or a high ranked reaver I will use CDs. There is, at least as I see it, an unwritten rule between guards.... we can both pledge and delay the spar by 30s, or save our CDs... that's the only reason I don't pledge on good guards who I want to beat. Also, on wardens... our CDs arent that useful. I mean against a shield warden I used to pledge when I was close to winning... but I find the time that it takes to hit the skill is sometimes the difference between the warden recovering from 300 health or me getting the win.

Originally Posted by jugger181

I am very interested in this as I have a pretty decently well geared warden (my 3rd 65) and have recently started sparring kinnies (very good kin, probably the top raiding kin on nimrodel) and have had mixed results. I do decently well against champs. Have a tough time against our leaders guard (op) and have mixed results against other classes. I assume it is just tactics and not knowing some other classes as well as I should. I generally trait 5 shield plus 2 other masteries. I like to open with cs/ambush/wof and cs if not a guard. Do you just go full turtle and heal from the start? what heal rotation do you use? Start with 2 and move up to 5builder hots? The other problem could be virtues. I am currently morale hoarding. Valour, Justice, loyalty, Innocence, Determination (8) and have about 8100morale/2800power wearing 4moria, 1 DN (chest) and book 3 shoulders (sometimes DN shoulders) I generally use the loth crit shield, Vit 650/Might 605/Agi 620ish. Do I need to swap out det/just or loyalty for the xtra melee defense from zeal(6) and discipline(5ish now)

Justice is pretty useless to us imo. The main thing it has going for it is OCMR, which we don't really need with capped vitality. I would definitely replace it with Discipline -> that's +30 Might AND +400 melee defense = much more useful than some cruddy numbers that haven't even been scaled to current cap yet.

Originally Posted by geoboy

Guards wreck me. Damn.

I don't spar shield spec.

I kno others above have indicated good results in redline...but I see good guards blo spearline up all the time (this likely your only prob imo).

Trust me, give shield a try and keep your morale up, kite and jav and leech...night and day...toe to toe guards tend to cut you...but you can easily outlast us and wear us down unless we go tank spec also....then its a total time kill and a guaranteed draw.

Edit: I agree with Shorty/Drak...if a champ or capt actually makes me hit a cd to beat them, I tell them they can count it as a victory...plegde is useless against tactical classes. Against the best burgs pledge is a must, considering their evade is double the duration...against wardens it depends how "relentlessly" they turtle and heal as to how many cd's a guard needs....if they blast morale up right before nearly going down near the end of the fight, I am certainly not above hitting pledge to extract a draw in the last seconds if I am then closer to death....you heal...we avoid

If wardens wanna heal through, pledge is a waste of a chance to crit :S

Originally Posted by Browny

You and I are 1-1, if I remember Z, been a long time though.

I think you might be right, but we were traited differently, either I was traited shield for some reason, or you were mixed traited and spear, and we both crushed each other 1-1, for whatever reason, I'll send you a tell when I see you're on and we can do some spear on spears, I was only talking records spear vs. spear, but yes let's do a few spars since you're best moors spear warden that I fight on creepside on silverlode imo and haven't sparred you.

Originally Posted by Jenkins101

All in all it really comes down to player skill and luck. A really good hunter will beat a poorly played warden. A decent crit from Piercing Cry can make a short spar. As far as ambushing at the beginning of the spar, I see no problems with it. Just about every class has some sort of knockdown/stun whether it's in the middle of a fight or the beginning. One thing I don't see a lot of wardens doing in spars is desolation. To me it's invaluable especially against Minstrels and RKs.

RK- CS/Ambush/HJ incoming/Crit Strike/ WT/WoF/Desolation as they are coming up. They will probably stun you but the hampering jav will allow you to finish building Desolation. The thing about RKs is that you don't want to be anywhere near them at the start because they know the ambush is coming and will throw out that AOE stun right off the bat, which happens to induct faster than Ambush. You're most likely screwed at that point. For a DPS warden this opening can come close to one-shotting the RK if you get some nice crits.

It's no fun to ambush RKs because there's no reason you should ever lose against an RK spear specced if you ambush them, ambush, WT>Crit strike, free positional WoF, and then mighty blow if you do it right... If I get a crit on 1 of the first 4 skills, the RK pretty much always comes out of the stun with less than 1k morale, and 2 crits or one dev, the RK won't come out of the stun

Originally Posted by Zydrassyl

It's no fun to ambush RKs because there's no reason you should ever lose against an RK spear specced if you ambush them, ambush, WT>Crit strike, free positional WoF, and then mighty blow if you do it right... If I get a crit on 1 of the first 4 skills, the RK pretty much always comes out of the stun with less than 1k morale, and 2 crits or one dev, the RK won't come out of the stun

While I do agree with you my opinion is this. I rarely initiate spars (unless we have sparred alot in the past) but I have never refused one. If you are willing to click that Spar button you must think you have a chance on winning or either want a challenge. I assume you are going to use all of your skill to defeat me so therefore I will do the same.

If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril.
Sun Tzu

The best fights i have had are against Guardians. I've tried multiple traits, but have the most success in shield spec. My style is toe-to-toe... nothing against you wardens who like to kite. I'm 50/50 with the best guards on the server, and only if they go OP. If they go tank, it's probably a draw.

RKs and Minis usually kick my butt, although I have better luck against RKs than Minis. Piercing Cry stun + slow + kiting DPS is just impossible for a melee class with no reliable stun and no in-combat sprint.

I usually do pretty well against burgs, but if their double stun procs I'm self-healing for my life. Can't beat Gorllok though....

I rarely lose to LMs and I've fought in both shield and spear specs. As far as LMs go, kill the pet. If you are slowed and they are miles away, stack self-heals off the pet. This will deprive them of additional DPS and the chance at a flank heal.

Champs are appetizers... sorry champs. Haven't found one that can put up a decent fight.

Wardens I tend to beat, though two shield-specced wardens is likely a draw.

AS FAR AS AMBUSHING GOES before the fight. I never do it if I'm sparring someone i've never fought before. When sparring some minis and RKs in my kin, I'll open with it because I know they are good and will destroy me if I don't.

Originally Posted by Jenkins101

While I do agree with you my opinion is this. I rarely initiate spars (unless we have sparred alot in the past) but I have never refused one. If you are willing to click that Spar button you must think you have a chance on winning or either want a challenge. I assume you are going to use all of your skill to defeat me so therefore I will do the same.

If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril.
Sun Tzu

Oh ok, but yeah I spar all the time lol, most people I spar I've sparred multiple times, and with ambush it's really easy lol

If a warden asks me to spar, I won't stealth unless they do

Otherwise I won't stealth anyway, that way they'll be more willing to spar me in the future, because they'll at least think they have a shot at beating me... Ambush> almost always no shot at beating unless it's guard or burg lol

A lot of burgs make the mistake of opening with Riddle, which is a poor misuse of DR. Opening with Twist, I can take off more than half your morale in the first 10s (approx. 5k), with Riddle, EO, and IFA/Provoke still off cooldown. If I don't CC again for a minute, I can repeat the exact same combination for another 5k damage in 8s of stun.

You wardens are funny that think opening with ambush against a RK = win.

I'd put money on me winning 100% of warden fights (or draw). No reason to lose because of a 5s stun, lmao.

I agree with the rune keeper lol. I agree the only way wardens have a chance in heck to beat an RK or mini in a spar is with ambush, but we still need a lucky crit or two on wages of fear, WT, CS, etc. Generally I win against RK's about 15% of the time (good RK's mind you, not the ones that don't know how to use their slow) which is also my melee crit rating lol.

I rarely lose to LMs and I've fought in both shield and spear specs. As far as LMs go, kill the pet. If you are slowed and they are miles away, stack self-heals off the pet. This will deprive them of additional DPS and the chance at a flank heal.

Any half-decent LM will release their pet as soon as you start stacking self-heals through it. With tar down, you won't even come close to the LM, and Wind-Lore debuffs your ranged DPS to hell. Ambush may be the bane of RKs, but is useless against LMs. Assuming they use their skills of course.
The two things that wreck LM's are total CC immunity (which only creeps can have with brands) and a sprint that ignores slows. Wardens don't have either.

If you are a Race of Man Warden, sorry, but there is no way you can beat a good Minstrel in a spar. I watch you bend down and look for your contacts and go invisible, and 1 second before the spar starts I use Still As Death. No Ambush for you!

Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

If you are a Race of Man Warden, sorry, but there is no way you can beat a good Minstrel in a spar. I watch you bend down and look for your contacts and go invisible, and 1 second before the spar starts I use Still As Death. No Ambush for you!

Legacied careful step is longer than still as death. If I don't start with an ambush, mini kites and kills me.

Originally Posted by grinko.at

Any half-decent LM will release their pet as soon as you start stacking self-heals through it. With tar down, you won't even come close to the LM, and Wind-Lore debuffs your ranged DPS to hell. Ambush may be the bane of RKs, but is useless against LMs. Assuming they use their skills of course.
The two things that wreck LM's are total CC immunity (which only creeps can have with brands) and a sprint that ignores slows. Wardens don't have either.

I stealth on a LM to get a wages from behind and then a slow, both without having to be moving at the same time.