Thread: Developer Read: Knives out update

Issue #5

What’s the deal with Knives Out sharing a cooldown with Touch and Go? I’ll never use it when I can just use Touch and Go instead.

We agreed. Knives Out will now be on a separate cooldown from Touch and Go. Knives Out’s effect will be buffed to now absorb 80% of incoming melee damage and return 20% of the incoming damage to the attacker. It retains the no parry and evade but will now last only 10 seconds.

Going from a 30-50% absorb and fixed reflect to 80% melee absorb and 20% reflect, on a seperate cooldown from touch n go, will simply make burgs unstoppable, especially in the small group and solo PVMP of the ettenmoors. This has to be addressed, please realize what you are doing. That is all.

Originally Posted by Abomnt

Going from a 30-50% absorb and fixed reflect to 80% melee absorb and 20% reflect, on a seperate cooldown from touch n go, will simply make burgs unstoppable, especially in the small group and solo PVMP of the ettenmoors. This has to be addressed, please realize what you are doing. That is all.

10s duration

2 minute cooldown

Originally Posted by Faithknight

10s duration

2 minute cooldown

I did not see that information anywhere.

My only concern: Grandfathered KO legacy - will it work? Are we talking 100% for 10s?

The last two days i killed more than 500 hillmen on the entrance of Helegrod - grinding for elvish relics to get to Kindred with Rivendell. KO may not be an uber skill but it helped speed the process up - every 2 minutes i group 5-6 mobs and kill them in 30 seconds.
When the update is live that would be impossible. On one hand the duration would be 10 seconds (why bother??) and on the other hand KO will reflect 20% of incoming damage - lvl 40 mobs do 30-40 damage to me, so i would reflect 10 damage to them for 10 seconds (can you see the joke??)

A lot of people seem to like the change but i don't. There are lots of grids in this game and KO was the only thing a burglar could use to speed those grinds up. Well devs apparently think we don't deserve that.

Originally Posted by Abomnt

I did not see that information anywhere.

It has been a 2 minute cool down for a long while now, and in the notes it stated that the duration was being reduced from 30 seconds to 10 seconds.

Originally Posted by NKolev

The last two days i killed more than 500 hillmen on the entrance of Helegrod - grinding for elvish relics to get to Kindred with Rivendell. KO may not be an uber skill but it helped speed the process up - every 2 minutes i group 5-6 mobs and kill them in 30 seconds.
When the update is live that would be impossible. On one hand the duration would be 10 seconds (why bother??) and on the other hand KO will reflect 20% of incoming damage - lvl 40 mobs do 30-40 damage to me, so i would reflect 10 damage to them for 10 seconds (can you see the joke??)

A lot of people seem to like the change but i don't. There are lots of grids in this game and KO was the only thing a burglar could use to speed those grinds up. Well devs apparently think we don't deserve that.

I can see this argument. I would love to hear a dev explain why they made this change. The only thing most burgs I knew used KO for was to do low level deeds use the reflect damage aspect.

10 seconds? kind of short make it atleast 15.


Unstopable? The class was/is dieing. Not need/wanted in 6 mans (slowed stuf down) and in BG do you realy need or want a burg?


Yea unstopable nurfs.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

10 seconds? kind of short make it atleast 15.


Unstopable? The class was/is dieing. Not need/wanted in 6 mans (slowed stuf down) and in BG do you realy need or want a burg?


Yea unstopable nurfs.

Burgs are valuable in BG for our debuffing skills. Addle with the +50% induction legacy can make a big difference on Durchest. The Lt is not a DPS race and disable can be the difference between a win and a wipe.

Too bad they didn't bother to improve any of our debuffing skills (or seemingly even review them).

KO will now become like an emergency escape or tank ability like TnG. Instead of evading damage you'll just absorb it. You'll take a lot less damage overall but for a much shorter time.

For those crying about how its good for grinding, thats a lame a excuse to keep the skill as it was. The new form will be much more useful for the longevity of the burglar.

How often would you need this new KO seriously?? With all the little tricks at our disposal? With the 30 secs Touch and Go + another 30 after Ready and Able + riddle + HiPS + all the stuns + all the tricks + heals. Did we really need another skill to save our skins?? So badly that you are willing to sacrifice our only AoE skill?

The only usefulness of the new KO will be in raids to lessen some huge hit from a boss. However a good burglar should never get the attention of a boss so...

And if it is going to be an escape skill - why bother keeping some damage reflect? Whats the point?

would be nice if they added imune to bleeds or any dot drain over time.

Originally Posted by Reyph

For those crying about how its good for grinding, thats a lame a excuse to keep the skill as it was. The new form will be much more useful for the longevity of the burglar.

Rubbish.

Like NKolev said, Burglar's are in no need of another emergency/escape skill. Personally, as much as it sucks, I would still prefer the current version of KO over the new version.

To clarify about the absorb....it'll absorb 80% and dish out 20% of the full damage, or the mitigated damage back? Because if it deals back 20% of the -80% damage it won't amount to much.

& yeah, 15-20s would be better.

As for unstoppable, I noticed you changed your reaver out of your sig to claim another class will be unstoppable in solo/small group environments, where reavers reign king. So lol @ you.

Originally Posted by Thorandril

To clarify about the absorb....it'll absorb 80% and dish out 20% of the full damage, or the mitigated damage back? Because if it deals back 20% of the -80% damage it won't amount to much.

& yeah, 15-20s would be better.

As for unstoppable, I noticed you changed your reaver out of your sig to claim another class will be unstoppable in solo/small group environments, where reavers reign king. So lol @ you.

Presumably it dishes out the full 20% of what you got hit for (before the absorb), but the reflect value most probably goes through mitigations twice (you mitigate the mobs damage, then the mob mitigates your reflected damage).

Basically, KO used to hit for 61 dmg per hit for 30s. Now it hits for 20% for 10s.

That means you have to be hit for 61*(100%/20%)*(30s/10s) = 915 dmg per hit to reflect as much as it did before (reduce that if mobs die before the 30s is up).

At 400-500 dmg per hit (about average?), you'll reflect around half of what we did before, but at a faster rate.

Having said that, it wouldn't be all that surprising if they did screw it up and reflect the dmg after the absorb.

Originally Posted by Abomnt

Going from a 30-50% absorb and fixed reflect to 80% melee absorb and 20% reflect, on a seperate cooldown from touch n go, will simply make burgs unstoppable, especially in the small group and solo PVMP of the ettenmoors. This has to be addressed, please realize what you are doing. That is all.

If we're talking moors:
1. This will not help against dots
2. This will not help against ranged
3. They've reduced the reflected damage

I guess you play a Reaver more than a Warg or BA, or else you'd much more upset about the Stealth changes.

Not sure why the timers had to be separated in this way. If you are on TnG you DON'T want to be hit. If you are on KO you DO want to be hit. At least that is how I always played it. Why would you ever want to pop both skills at the same time that they would need separate timers?

Im not sure whether I like or dont like this. I used KO in every 1v1 with a reaver i had, (tng is cheap imo) and I did quite well due to the 30s duration....the skill is definitely buffed but the 10s duration might kill me in 1v1s.... unless I w8 til I think DS is gunna happen, then pop it to nearly negate the DS. I guess ill find out if I like or hate it.

Unlocking it from TnG is great. Don't change that. But I've always thought of KO being an offensive skill at the expense of your defense. There should just enough mitigation to keep you alive over its time period.

The 20% reflection is only useful if being hit really hard therfore it looses the ability to kill 5-10 trash mobs quickly over 30s. This is a big part of what people use KO for except for maybe AIM then KO just for kicks. I think it should do the 61 damage plus reflect ~30% damage

Most people seem happy with the 80% mitigation but the 10s time is too short. I would prefer a longer time but less mitigation. How about 60% for 15s or 40% for 20s

So which option would you perfer?

1: 40% mitigation for 20s but reflect 30% damage +61 (Ideal for taking out 10+ trash mobs)

2: 60% mitigation for 15s but reflect 30% damage +61 (an even balance between offence and defence)

3: 80% mitigation for 10s but reflect 30% damage +61 (Good when you a getting pummeled but might as well have TnG last 40s on a 4min CD? )

4: Enter you own prefered (balance combination here)

Originally Posted by Evendale

Presumably it dishes out the full 20% of what you got hit for (before the absorb), but the reflect value most probably goes through mitigations twice (you mitigate the mobs damage, then the mob mitigates your reflected damage).

Basically, KO used to hit for 61 dmg per hit for 30s. Now it hits for 20% for 10s.

That means you have to be hit for 61*(100%/20%)*(30s/10s) = 915 dmg per hit to reflect as much as it did before (reduce that if mobs die before the 30s is up).

At 400-500 dmg per hit (about average?), you'll reflect around half of what we did before, but at a faster rate.

Having said that, it wouldn't be all that surprising if they did screw it up and reflect the dmg after the absorb.

Looking at how other reflects are implemented in the game, sadly I think it will be 20% of what you actually get hit for, which will be 20%*20* = 4% of the actual damage you would have been hit for. So you would need to have been hit for at least 1525 (= 61/.04) without Knives Out to reflect 61 damage in a single hit.

That of course is ignoring -inc melee from gear/traits/relics. I'm at 13% currently, so the new KO will put me at 93% (reflecting 1.4% of the original damage of the attack).

Toss in my KO legacy, and I'm at 113% absorb (heal 13% of original damage) and reflect nothing (or laughably reflect a 2.6% heal).

For a 10 second buff it should reflect a lot more, unless it is doing 20% of original damage (which I doubt).

Originally Posted by Swiftstrike

Looking at how other reflects are implemented in the game, sadly I think it will be 20% of what you actually get hit for, which will be 20%*20* = 4% of the actual damage you would have been hit for. So you would need to have been hit for at least 1525 (= 61/.04) without Knives Out to reflect 61 damage in a single hit.

That of course is ignoring -inc melee from gear/traits/relics. I'm at 13% currently, so the new KO will put me at 93% (reflecting 1.4% of the original damage of the attack).

Toss in my KO legacy, and I'm at 113% absorb (heal 13% of original damage) and reflect nothing (or laughably reflect a 2.6% heal).

For a 10 second buff it should reflect a lot more, unless it is doing 20% of original damage (which I doubt).

What's unclear is what's reflected: is it the incoming damage ou the mitigated damage?

In the first case, that would be fine: You're hit by 100 dmg, absorb 80 with T&G, take 20 (yes I neglect all the usual mitigations), reflect 20. Sounds fine for 10s (and will cause fun things in the Moors when the burg gets focused ).

In the second case...

Regards,
Skro

As an aside, will escape clause reset knives out? y/n.

You know, now that I think about it, maybe this had nothing to do with current play, but everything to do with raising level cap.

Since the Knives Out reflect was a fixed amount rather than percentage, I wonder if it just didn't scale well with the upcoming expansion?

This might have less to do with the here and now, and everything to do with the near (for us, unknown) future.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by RJFerret

You know, now that I think about it, maybe this had nothing to do with current play, but everything to do with raising level cap.

Since the Knives Out reflect was a fixed amount rather than percentage, I wonder if it just didn't scale well with the upcoming expansion?

This might have less to do with the here and now, and everything to do with the near (for us, unknown) future.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Given the history of the devs, I do not think there was that much fore thought.

I use Knives Out all the time when I have multiple pulls, especially on mobs I can't stun; the extra damage is beneficial. Losing that damage will just make the class that much less effective. The change makes Knives Out a strictly defensive measure, not any useful amount of additional damage.

I like de-linking Knives Out from Touch 'n Go; however, I find the other changes to Knives Out to be a definite nerf.

It looks to me like Knives Out has just been turned into another "oh ****" button to get you an extra 10s for a heal. I probably won't use it any more than usual.

for all you new guys at one time there was a KO legacy that increased absorption.


nurf
nurf
nurf

Originally Posted by Thorandril

As for unstoppable, I noticed you changed your reaver out of your sig to claim another class will be unstoppable in solo/small group environments, where reavers reign king. So lol @ you.

I noticed that too. Hilarious to see the OP link his sig to a R7 burg instead of his R13 reaver. Does he really think this gives his complaint the illusion of being reasonable?

And back on topic, I'm not too fond of the changes to knives out either. It might however prove very interesting when used against dying rage, even more so on the off chance the reflect is based on initial damage.