Thread: Fist traits

Hello all. Please allow me to introduce myself. My name is Rohegrin and I make my home on Landroval. I am currently a level 62 Warden and have been traited in Fist for as long as I can remember. I think it comes down to my belief that I should be generating as much threat as possible so that others can do as much DPS as possible.

I have spent a little time on these forums and am noticing some things. I read that a lot of warden trait shield or spear for groups/raids. I am the highest level character in my kinship and as such I am waiting for others to catch up to me. This has resulted in me soloing for most of my time in Middle Earth. I am looking forward to doing instances and raids with my kinsmen and kinswomen but I want to be the best tank that I can.

I would love to hear advice from any Wardens that tank in level 50+ instances. Is traiting into Fist a mistake? I love the AoE threat building. I use Skrimishes to practice my skills. I figure if I can keep enemies off of my Herbalist I am doing well. My Legendary Sword has Warcry threat up at max level. My typical rotation is Warcry, Exaltation of Battle, Resolution, Resolution, repeat.

Please forgive my ignorance. As I said before I want to be the best tank I can be and I am asking for your guidance. I have made my character Public so that you can assess my build, gear, etc. Thank you in advance for any direction.

A quick comment as far as the herbalist goes: they generate *very* little aggro in my experience. A warrior would be a better choice if you wanted to practice, but even then, a skirmisher will at best generate only a fraction of the threat a real player would.

The problem with fist traiting is that there really isn't that much of a benefit, and traiting fist costs a fair bit of either dps or survivability. Holding aggro is still quite doable shield/spear traited, and you can still do dps/heal.

As for your rotation: it could use some work, but decent start. WC is a decent opener for initial aggro, but its not really worth using beyond that. EoB is good, resolution is good for heals but I prefer Fierce Resolve in a general rotation. Consider Shield Mastery for less squishiness, and Conviction/Dance of War for aggro purposes. Some people like Goad for 3 mob pulls(6 mob pulls if you stick with fist traiting), but I've found it somewhat lacking personally.

My rotation for multi-mob pulls, if you want an example is as follows:
3 21 - WC
3 12 32 - EoB
2 3 23 2 - Conviction
31 2 - FR
Use the 21 mastery to put up Shield Mastery, then maintain EoB/FR/Conviction.

Your gear certainly needs work, but you're not at the level cap yet, so commenting on what you have right now won't be much good.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but resolution and Fierce resolve generate zero threat past the morale that they leech. It does not say on these skills anywhere that they generate threat. So using those skills as threat skills seems like a poor choice.

It really depends on the people you are going to be playing with. If they do not do a ton of DPS, it really won't matter what you trait. One PB followed by DoW/Convict (traited) should be plenty to hold aggro on anything. If your intent is to have them maximize DPS, you will really need to spam threat skills (Fist traited helps).

2 fist traits is worth it? Maybe. More than that? No.

Traiting fist does not increase FR/EoB pulses. In addition, while the +fist pulses increase the fist DoT pulses, you don't get extra ToT (threat pulses). It's important, because this is one of the primary failings of fist traitline. So you get the real bonuses to threat from the 2 and 5 set bonus. I would never trait 5 fist unless I was looking for some giggles using desolation.

Traiting shield will increase your survivability and ability to compensate for lacking heals. Once you get your shield capstone by completing Volume 2 book 6, conviction will compensate for any lost AoE aggro. . Spear will increase your single target threat and DPS. Thing is that the spear and shield capstones are worth traiting, so mixed traiting in level cap wardens is rare.


Fierce resolve and resolution carry 0 Threat aside from the DPS/Healing. It's a skill to keep your morale bar green. It will help to keep mobs off your healer, but will not in any way hold mobs over even moderate DPS.

You do get healing/dps threat from both. Nothing amazing, but its there. The purpose is as geoboy stated though, to keep your bar green.

"So using those skills as threat skills seems like a poor choice."
Tanks (in PUGs) need to have a little bit of survivability too. Not everyone has top of the line healers.

"(Fist traited helps)"
Less seriousness, plz.

While I wouldn't bother traiting fist for skirms (spear is the way to go, if you have a herbalist keeping you in the blue), 5 fist + capstone is definitely a fun and rewarding traitline for instances with many mobs and champions. Desolation fear is awesome, and you can ST tank with a spear warden rotation because of the added threat (in fact, I wouldn't use PB while fist traited, because it's essentially a waste of power). It's also possible that you'll get less resists with Resolution and EoB.

I have a suspicion that you might end up taking less net damage than if shield traited with multiple mobs from the fears + less resists on leeches = more heal, over conviction + added avoidance. My rotation with the fist capstone is to get EoB out, then Desolation, SM. Depending on how much the champ is hitting for, I might throw a WC, but if you don't need the extra threat, don't worry about it.

There is a lot of good information here and I appreciate all of your feedback. I had not considered that the traits that I had equipped increased the melee/DpT damage but not the threat of many of the gambits I was using. I think what I might do is retrait and try some things out. I was lucky enough to get a 3rd Age Sword with WC Threat Up, SoD DoT up, and SoV damage up but I certainly have enough RDT and KTs to get some more LI and see if I can find something decent.

Again I appreciate everyone's input. I really love how helpful this community is. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Malephor

My rotation for multi-mob pulls, if you want an example is as follows:
3 21 - WC
3 12 32 - EoB
2 3 23 2 - Conviction
31 2 - FR
Use the 21 mastery to put up Shield Mastery, then maintain EoB/FR/Conviction.

Not to hijack, but the main question has been handled and I’d like to comment on this rotation. I don’t understand the 3 21 to fire WC, and I’m interested to see how I can improve my sequencing. In multi-mob pulls I open with JoDF and hit the 32 mastery as I’m running in, to fire of an instant WC. So my rotation goes something like the the below, and I want to know how I can do it better. The manual conviction building pains me in particular, and I see you are able to at least fit one mastery in there.

32 – WC
31 23 2 – EoB
2 3 2 3 2 – Conviction

as needed:
3 12 – FR
2 13 2 – SM

You know you are finally learning the Warden class when you actually understand something like this:
32 – WC
31 23 2 – EoB
2 3 2 3 2 – Conviction

as needed:
3 12 – FR
2 13 2 – SM

Easy. It's because he isn't in range for the [sh] builder yet. [fi] is ranged, so he hits that on his way in, then [shsp], and gets war-cry. See his next Gambit uses the [fish] mastery, so he's saving that one. This leaves him with one mastery to use with conviction. Probably nets him at least 1s.

I thought of that on the way home. I also realize now that I'm getting way less benefit from my fist carving as he does. Time to go back to school. At least now I'll have another way to build and be more flexible

Originally Posted by geoboy

Easy. It's because he isn't in range for the [sh] builder yet. [fi] is ranged, so he hits that on his way in, then [shsp], and gets war-cry. See his next Gambit uses the [fish] mastery, so he's saving that one. This leaves him with one mastery to use with conviction. Probably nets him at least 1s.

Actually I have only traited MotF. But I am beginning to see the benefit of keep the Fist traits (5) and then MotSp and MotSh as the last two. I have not yet finished Safeguard in the Dark Delving to get my Fist capstone but am hoping to get it done soon.

Geoboy was spot on with my reasoning(and as it happens, he's the one I learned that from).

Interesting reasoning for using fist traits, however, I find that the damage reduction isn't all that necessary. 6mans can all be tanked in spear without a serious strain on your healer. But to each there own, I see how it could be viable.

the main issue with WotF is that is has no coherent role, it's a DPS/CC/tanking/resistance reducing line but since it is a jack of all trades it kind of fails all round, it doesn't do enough in each of those fields to be really helpful. other then Know Your Enemy and MotF I don't think there are any traits really worth the effot, unless you are using the build for the moors, which can be useful if done right.

Oh, my rotation in Fist is a modification of the one in my guide:

[Fi] [Sp Sh] [Fi Sh] EoB
[Fi Sp] [Fi] [Sp Fi] DC.. if champs start out heavy early, otherwise I just use it for extra dps at the end of the rotation
[Fi] [Sh] [Fi] [Sh Fi] Desolation
[Sh Sp] [Fi] [Sh] SM.. leave out between buff duration to save power, or swap with WoS

To conserve power, I reduce it to just EoB and Desolation if necessary. I slowly change to my ST dps rotation around when 3 mobs are left (WT-US-Onsl-CombStr-OffenStr).

Try it out in HoC or SG (and let the champs/LMs go crazy); you will love it.

Originally Posted by Malephor

You do get healing/dps threat from both. Nothing amazing, but its there. The purpose is as geoboy stated though, to keep your bar green.

"So using those skills as threat skills seems like a poor choice."
Tanks (in PUGs) need to have a little bit of survivability too. Not everyone has top of the line healers.

"(Fist traited helps)"
Less seriousness, plz.

If you're going to heal yourself, You might as well use restoration or traited conviction. Fierce resolve has got to be one of the worst gambits in the game. More seriousness please. If you're going for single target threat, no skill beats PB. If you're going for AoE threat, you're better off with War Cry, Goad, Conviction or DoW. Resolution and FR are pretty much garbage unless you're fighting at least 8 mobs and have aggro on all of them. Even then, you're probably better off refreshing a defensive buff that will more effectively "Keep your bar green".

Since the OP said, I want to generate as much threat as possible... PB is your friend. Fist traited increases PB threat. Logic.

Originally Posted by lf2536

the main issue with WotF is that is has no coherent role,

Hrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

FR ~ Resto with 6 mobs. From what i've heard, resto line heals do not generate (as much) threat as the heals from FR.
Also, take note that conviction is in my rotation. My rotation is also able to include resto, conviction, and FR.

I didn't argue your PB claim, I agree with it. WC/Goad aren't that good for aoe threat. Also, again see where Conviction/DoW is already in my rotation.

Also, you're right, in order to generate as much threat as possible PB while traited fist would be the preference. However, my point was that you really don't need to be fist traited to hold aggro in the majority of the situations the OP will be in. Maybe when playing with top of the line dpsers, you might start to come up short. Once you're at that point though, as you always argue yourself, why are you bothering to tank anyway?

I find your claim interesting, Asterix, seeing as the only gambit that generates threat in your rotation is EoB, and a little damage threat from Deso(unless I'm forgetting a threat component on Deso).

Originally Posted by cwswim03

Hrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

as opposed to the class, knowing my opinion matter didyou really think I meant anything else?

Originally Posted by Malephor

I didn't argue your PB claim, I agree with it. WC/Goad aren't that good for aoe threat. Also, again see where Conviction/DoW is already in my rotation.

Also, you're right, in order to generate as much threat as possible PB while traited fist would be the preference. However, my point was that you really don't need to be fist traited to hold aggro in the majority of the situations the OP will be in. Maybe when playing with top of the line dpsers, you might start to come up short. Once you're at that point though, as you always argue yourself, why are you bothering to tank anyway?

I find your claim interesting, Asterix, seeing as the only gambit that generates threat in your rotation is EoB, and a little damage threat from Deso(unless I'm forgetting a threat component on Deso).

The OP specifically stated in his OP, "I want to generate as much threat as possible so my allies can do as much DPS as possible". There is an optimal way to do that, as I mentioned.

Originally Posted by lf2536

as opposed to the class, knowing my opinion matter didyou really think I meant anything else?

No............................ ...

Desolation actually has a pretty good ToT on it. And DC has a mediocre one-time threat gain. Both made better by the fist line. The nice thing is that you don't have to spam threat like in shield or spear; your rotation can be more functional while being more than adequate.

Other adjustment is that it might take a little while for the champs to get used to standing perpendicular to the direction the mobs run when feared instead of directly behind them.

First, lets clarify something ... the OP said "I want to be the best tank that I can". He also stated ... "I think it comes down to my belief that I should be generating as much threat as possible so that others can do as much DPS as possible". To decide how to trait, first you must answer what in your opinion makes you the best tank. Some will say hold all the agro all the time. Others will say that you can't be killed. Most will fall somewhere in the middle. I personally believe it is to hold enough agro that others do not have to hold back and if it is a fellow or below to add on to that the belief of making healers either obsolete or to heal those who do things they should not (stand in fire, in front of frontal AoE mobs, etc).

Rainy,

You made me look as I doubted my own knowledge ... I can not find a ToT on desolation anywhere, just the DoT and fear over time. Could you clarify that position please? And I have tried that trait line but opted away from it for various reasons and one of them that the fear moved mobs out of AoE for some classes and it was annoying as can be to have the mob I want to build a gambit on move away in fear or to have to regroup them the way I wanted when they came back. The fear is nice to minimize damage, but I found the threat/survivability I have in shield outweighed it for the above and other reasons.

As to the FR vs Resolution debate, I fall on the side of Resolution. For me you are getting more morale back for 1 gambit more of power, getting it back instantly instead of over time. I do use FR if I know I am going to be taking damage and am trying to get ahead of the game, but usually I wait till I need a resolution and just use that time to build another skill.

2 coppers from just another warden.

Checked, there is no threat on deso. I did forget about DC though, moderate as it is.

The debate wasn't FR vs Reso, it was FR/Reso vs other stuff. On the matter of FR vs Reso, its approximately the same morale healed, actually, so either way if you want to use reso, you're going to be building it ~ every 16s anyway, and reso costs more power+time, so I prefer FR.

@Roov:
"I think it comes down to my belief that I should be generating as much threat as possible so that others can do as much DPS as possible."
to
"I want to be the best tank that I can."
to
"Is traiting into Fist a mistake?"
to
"As I said before I want to be the best tank I can be"

So yes, if you're looking solely for threat, then traiting fist is the way to go.
However, if you want to be the best tank you can be on a warden, it is generally not going to be by traiting fist and spamming PB.

generating as much aggro as possible != being the best tank possible

Ah, my bad, I had assumed it followed the SoD-type ToT+DoT. The amount the DoT puts out is pretty good, though: about equivalent to an MB on each 6 mobs (137 + 103x6, and it bypasses avoidance). Anyway, the most it fears mobs is <10m, which should be within the champs' AoE radius if they line up in the center of the mob's pathing. It does require a little intuitive adjustment for them, but shouldn't be a big problem.

As the warden, I use the "select nearest target" command to pick up whatever's closest before using a melee builder. When you're building AoE threat, it really doesn't matter which mob you target; all the ST dps could be focusing on different targets and you'd still have aggro. Most of my rotation is builders + taunt anyway.

Some more stuff: when traited Fist, I do still use Conviction in rare cases - when a mob has run out of the range of my AoEs and I need to pick it up without having to chase it down.

Just a quick clarification in case newer wardens are reading this ... SoD has a threat component, but not a ToT component. As to the champs positioning, I may have to test this out with a champ friend to see how much (if any) it affects their dps. I am pretty sure but not 100% positive that they use some ST skills to build fervor which means they would have the same problem and have to be constantly switching to the closest mob. Also want to compare fleeing paths and how mobs flee because if memory serves, they run away from me (at least initially) and they are never truly bunched up anymore as they don't want to stand on top of each other. As to that keystroke, I have found that sometimes it does not work for targeting a mob ... not sure why, just know that I hit backspace and the target does not switch (mob obiously way far away) but if I then hit tab followed by backspace, it pulls up the right mob.

Anyways, may try that out again just to see how it stacks up with threat against my favorite high threat kinnies and see if it is any easier to hold agro, same or worse. The only downside would be they would not be getting any heals from me the few times they do take agro which means we might need to take a healer or make a healer work some, but if I can keep agro the whole time and keep my need for heals the same or less, might be worth running.

If the champs get annoyed by it, it might also inspire them to horn more often .

Originally Posted by Malephor

@Roov:
"I think it comes down to my belief that I should be generating as much threat as possible so that others can do as much DPS as possible."
to
"I want to be the best tank that I can."
to
"Is traiting into Fist a mistake?"
to
"As I said before I want to be the best tank I can be"

@You.

Mobs hit like sissies. Especially against Wardens/Guardians. I was in SG with a guardian on my RK traited for healing. I did not use one heal until Urchir. You know what that says? Mobs don't hit hard enough. You do not need to trait shield... especially over-levelled in G.S.

A tank holds aggro off the squishies. That's it. Everything with heavy armor (Or wardens with medium armor because apparently the Spartans in 300 didn't wear enough heavy armor), are so overly surviviable that all they need to do is hold aggro. Healing is over-powered, damage reduction is overpowered. If you can hold aggro on everything, you've done your job. If I can survive in Fervor, he can survive easily with Fist (And will hold aggro easier).

Originally Posted by cwswim03

(Or wardens with medium armor because apparently the Spartans in 300 didn't wear enough heavy armor)

If I remember well, they're basically naked... So light armor would be more spartan, no? (Just joking )

Originally Posted by Thorunial

If I remember well, they're basically naked... So light armor would be more spartan, no? (Just joking )

Of course...

I was in SG the other day on my warden and the healer did not have to cast a heal until ....






well, he still hasn't cast a heal. Yep, the mobs hit like wimps. Either take a warden and no healer, a guard and nominal healer or a champ and a healer. Would say don't take any heavies, but that would just ruffle feathers And based on your definition Roov, any trait line up would work for wardens as any competent warden can hold agro off the "squishies" in any trait line so the only question left is what else do you want your tank to do?

Originally Posted by SkateDr

well, he still hasn't cast a heal. Yep, the mobs hit like wimps. Either take a warden and no healer, a guard and nominal healer or a champ and a healer. Would say don't take any heavies, but that would just ruffle feathers And based on your definition Roov, any trait line up would work for wardens as any competent warden can hold agro off the "squishies" in any trait line so the only question left is what else do you want your tank to do?

See the thing is... The mobs have to be dead for your encounter to be complete. WinkyFace.