Thema: Cool Action Shots.

Zitat von Elgalad

Hmm, maybe the same reason a creep PvE's in the moors...getting a rez? If you think freeps don't have to PvE at all, then I'd suggest you sit back for a day and watch the map. Action=freeps having a keep, no action=freeps not having a keep. Enough said.

Freeps don't always need a keep, just sayin...fighting can be at GG or xroads or PTR or even HH,WCR, COP, OC water, GTA. should i go on?

Zitat von arthas938

Freeps don't always need a keep, just sayin...fighting can be at GG or xroads or PTR or even HH,WCR, COP, OC water, GTA. should i go on?

Well put as always Volo.


Freeps dont need a rez circle, ever. Sure its a nice luxury, but I dont typically agree with taking keeps for rez circles, the only time Ill take a keep is if the fight is there, the creeps lose numbers, and then we move inside and start farming, at that point i like to commit so that once on the tyrant creeps will come in/come back from doing map quests, to save their keep.

So sure, taking a keep can invigorate PVP but it has little to nothing to do with a rez.

also there are plenty of other places to fight

if the creeps would hang out between crossroads and GV more often the freeps could push out on them in the open field and die, retreat, come back, there have been some epic continuous battles that way till both sides ran out of power. THAT is pvp man.

Screw this sitting at EC and waiting stuff, on both sides, if the numbers arent even, you even them out, if you still cant get even numbers, you play dirty, flanks, healer zergs, anything you can to get the W.

Zitat von EdalorTrailtamper

Screw this sitting at EC and waiting stuff, on both sides, if the numbers arent even, you even them out, if you still cant get even numbers, you play dirty, flanks, healer zergs, anything you can to get the W.

BTW I place 85% of the blame in this situation to the freeps. No one takes initiative, nor can they come up with something clever and then put forth the necessary coaxing to organize something when the fight is uneven.

Freeps should take a page out of the black blades book, learn their classes and how to interact with them and each other.

If you watch a good black blade raid you will see a few things, when crashing into the freeps in the open field:


Rusty and or Spidersense will immediately run through the group lay down webs, (because the freeps always run)

one of the WL's will then bubble the spiders

(while freeps try to waste dps on the raid leader... rofl.. whilst ignoring the wls and defilers)

meanwhile the reavers are charging in and attacking healers to interupt and to draw dps fire so vasil and others can come in and plant their AOE fear

dont forget the BA's in the back, pew pewing all the while, and the healers that are largely unmolested cause the freeps dont know how to push through the creeps.

all this happens simultaneously, and it causes chaos, it's beautiful.

Props to the BB on that, but when there's just 5 or so freeps, common, disband or go to bed.. seriously. lol no matter how well you play in raid vs raid, when its a BB group and a spit group vs 5 freeps... thats just sad


thus concludes my rant.

Zitat von EdalorTrailtamper

if the creeps would hang out between crossroads and GV more often the freeps could push out on them in the open field and die, retreat, come back, there have been some epic continuous battles that way till both sides ran out of power. THAT is pvp man.

As long as Creepside has 2 or more semi-ranked warleaders available to them, these continuous fights will be won by Creeps unless the numbers are somewhat in favor of the Freeps, or because the Creeps don't know how to play. It's as simple as that.

Zitat von olagaton3434

As long as Creepside has 2 or more semi-ranked warleaders available to them, these continuous fights will be won by Creeps unless the numbers are somewhat in favor of the Freeps, or because the Creeps don't know how to play. It's as simple as that.

that may be true on this server now but it doesnt have to remain that way, and it isnt that way on all other servers.

For instance, last night on brandywine, there was a verteran raid of creeps, full raid, WL in each group, plus roughly 12-15 soloers outside the raid. there were 30 freeps.

Creeps had numbers, but they dont have aoe, freeps had less, but they all balled up together and kept a RK out of combat shieldwalled, underneath another rk standing in the exact same spot healing so as not to be seen. the rk rezzed for a while till the creeps discovered the ploy and though not easily, blew him up. The freeps stay balled up and nothing can kill them, anything that melees dies from the constant blender. the creeps are forced to spread out and make a semicircle around the ball so as not to be AOEd to death.

Now my point is, with all of this, creeps having numbers over freeps, and both sides getting epic amounts of kills (950 infamy in 15 minutes) the WLs all had to use their rez, and when the outnumbered freeps finally bested the creeps, we were 50 seconds away from the first wl rez coming off CD to be used again.

Both sides did amazing in this fight cause they played smart, both sides got tons of kills, being that we were close to tr rez and the freeps had an out of combat rezer, some freeps died 2-3 times, I personally died 4 times and recieved a 5th rez right as the creeps wipe, which I promtly declined. lol


All blabbering aside, it doesnt come down to quantity, it's all about quality. and btw, any freep raid that isnt targeting WLs first just fails, so rezs shouldnt even be an issue.

Zitat von EdalorTrailtamper

that may be true on this server now but it doesnt have to remain that way, and it isnt that way on all other servers.

For instance, last night on brandywine, there was a verteran raid of creeps, full raid, WL in each group, plus roughly 12-15 soloers outside the raid. there were 30 freeps.

Creeps had numbers, but they dont have aoe, freeps had less, but they all balled up together and kept a RK out of combat shieldwalled, underneath another rk standing in the exact same spot healing so as not to be seen. the rk rezzed for a while till the creeps discovered the ploy and though not easily, blew him up.

That strategy is more of a gimmick that will quickly run it's course, as you stated. Creeps can keep anyone in combat that they want, if they are paying attention. Creeps can blow up anyone they want, if they are focus firing. Eventually, in a battle of attrition, Creeps will win due to sheer power, PvP-centric skills, morale and mitigation levels, mass rezzes, and typically well-balanced class structure.

All blabbering aside, it doesnt come down to quantity, it's all about quality. and btw, any freep raid that isnt targeting WLs first just fails, so rezs shouldnt even be an issue.

Bubble the WL, and that strategy fails. I've seen it happen way too often to know that targetting the WL doesn't work. Throw in the fact that WL's have some of the best mitigations, can achieve the highest morale levels, and have a massive AOE debuff available, and they are not an easy kill.

Zitat von EdalorTrailtamper

and btw, any freep raid that isnt targeting WLs first just fails, so rezs shouldnt even be an issue.

So many factors are involved with a raid vs raid strategy... I wouldnt be so quick to call a freep raid who didnt kill the WL's 1st a failure.

If all the freeps are focusing on taking down these WL's, tons and tons of dps from reavers, wargs, and BA's is destroying the freep raid.

If champs and burgs mess with the WL's and Defilers, and the rest of the freeps take out the creep dps... more freeps will survive to kill the weak and loading creeps that get rezzed. Those who get rezzed will be fodder for the freep aoe, giving the freeps way more kills and renown.

I dont think a good freep strategy against a raid of BB ranked creeps would just be targetting and attempting to kill the WL's 1st. Quite a few things need to be happenning at once to win a fight like that, especially considering how much less experienced most freeps are nowadays compared to the BB and Spit members.

Obviously both side's strategies will be dependent upon their class mixes and skill/ experience in the raid...and killing the WL's first can definitely be the winning strategy at times.

I definitely wouldnt go so far to say that all freep raids who dont target and kill the WL's 1st are full of fail though.

Zitat von EdalorTrailtamper

it doesnt come down to quantity, it's all about quality.

This is a nice idea and everything, and I definitely wish it were more true, but I know it isnt. Quantity matters.

Zitat von arthas938

Freeps don't always need a keep, just sayin...fighting can be at GG or xroads or PTR or even HH,WCR, COP, OC water, GTA. should i go on?

None of those places can balance a fight as well as TR, TA, or Lugz. If creeps have the numbers to take TR while all the freeps aretrying to defend it, the only other places to go are the GV one-shots and Ost; unless we are talking about hit n runs all over the map, running away before the rest of the creeps map in.

Any other place would require lots of luck and a few failures on the creepside.

Zitat von olagaton3434

Bubble the WL, and that strategy fails. I've seen it happen way too often to know that targetting the WL doesn't work. Throw in the fact that WL's have some of the best mitigations, can achieve the highest morale levels, and have a massive AOE debuff available, and they are not an easy kill.

why would there be two wls in one group to get a bubble? yeah in that situation, with a raid having 6 plus wls there is no help for the freeps, but typically unless it is a group of 6 with 2 wls, any larger group is only gonna have one wl per group

Zitat von EdalorTrailtamper

why would there be two wls in one group to get a bubble? yeah in that situation, with a raid having 6 plus wls there is no help for the freeps, but typically unless it is a group of 6 with 2 wls, any larger group is only gonna have one wl per group

Putting a few Wl's in groups together used to be a widely used strategy on Nimrodel... because freeps would try to take them out first. All the Wl's had to do was bubble and take care of eachother, and the rest of the creeps would take out the freep raid during that time.

Ed I noticed you mentioned melee and blender.. something which doesn't exist on Nimrodel.

./rollsRK

Zitat von OGsam

Ed I noticed you mentioned melee and blender.. something which doesn't exist on Nimrodel.

./rollsRK

Hey you there! Stop!

Zitat von ellestone

If all the freeps are focusing on taking down these WL's, tons and tons of dps from reavers, wargs, and BA's is destroying the freep raid. .

considering i was discussing freeps on brandywine forming a freep ball I kinda thought it was implied that I meant ranged dps on WLs and melees protecting healers and blending, as they always shuold be doing in a raid. especially one where everyone is grouped up on one another.

Zitat von ellestone

I dont think a good freep strategy against a raid of BB ranked creeps would just be targetting and attempting to kill the WL's 1st. Quite a few things need to be happenning at once to win a fight like that, especially considering how much less experienced most freeps are nowadays compared to the BB and Spit members.
.

No you are right, if you read my post where I describe the typical black blade zerg you'll see I describe exactly how the BB attacks a freep raid in the open field, and I pride myself in saying that it is a fairly accurate description, and I also know the counter for it.

as spiders zerg through the raid to web, they often take sactuary on the backside of the freeps and dot them up for the duration of their WTE. This is the time when the freeps need to abandon all caution and get right in the remaining creeps faces, making the BAs turn tail and leaving the healers vulnerable, and hopefully, separating them enough that you can turn back and kill the spiders that rush through to web before they reunite with their bubblers.

Zitat von ellestone

This is a nice idea and everything, and I definitely wish it were more true, but I know it isnt. Quantity matters.

yeah a raid of creeps isnt gonna be stopped by 5 freeps but when its anywhere near 2:1 the lesser on either side creep or freep should have no problem opposing if they are outsmarting the other side.
5v10, 10v20, those arent terrible ods. you just have to play smart.

if one good freep or creep can take on two good freeps or creeps, why then cannot 5 take on 10? or 10 20? it takes all the people involved working together, doing their job, and being smart, numbers dont matter unless you are talking about a stare down.. if that is what you want, that is what an equal number fight brings. The best battles take place amongst adversity, and uneven numbers, where a small but strong number outsmarts and routes a larger force.

Zitat von ellestone

If creeps have the numbers to take TR while all the freeps aretrying to defend it, the only other places to go are the GV one-shots and Ost

Any other place would require lots of luck and a few failures on the creepside.

yeah? how about leaving 5-6 freeps to get camped at GV and the rest hop out the safe path halfway up eagles and flank the creeps at GV? ive performed this countless times while being severely outnumbered. Catch your foe with his pants around his ankles and you have a hard time not ramming your sword in his back side

Zitat von EdalorTrailtamper

yeah? how about leaving 5-6 freeps to get camped at GV and the rest hop out the safe path halfway up eagles and flank the creeps at GV? ive performed this countless times while being severely outnumbered. Catch your foe with his pants around his ankles and you have a hard time not ramming your sword in his back side

Sounds like luck and creep failure to me.

Zitat von EdalorTrailtamper

if one good freep or creep can take on two good freeps or creeps, why then cannot 5 take on 10? or 10 20? it takes all the people involved working together, doing their job, and being smart, numbers dont matter unless you are talking about a stare down.. if that is what you want, that is what an equal number fight brings. The best battles take place amongst adversity, and uneven numbers, where a small but strong number outsmarts and routes a larger force.

This would also be a creep failure. Black Bladers are pretty good; been playing together for a long time.

Could you beat Spideysense or Rustynailz 1v1? Sure. Could you beat them 1v2? I highly doubt it. (1st creep names that popped into my head, so dont take any meaning by my name choices, noobs.)

Zitat von ellestone

Sounds like luck and creep failure to me.

Deciding to make a daring move is lucky?

catching the creeps off guard is a failure on the creeps part?

now you are just arguing to argue

Zitat von EdalorTrailtamper

Deciding to make a daring move is lucky?

catching the creeps off guard is a failure on the creeps part?

now you are just arguing to argue

Executing the daring move against a larger force requires some luck.

Finding experienced creeps off guard and completely unaware that a bunch of freeps have gone all the way to ost and come all the way back to GV to flank them would certainly require some luck.

Its just a pretty simple idea. When less people kill more people, it would be a failure on the part of the side that had numbers.

You are suggesting that the unexperienced freeps we have on our server can just flank around the BB'ers and be successful. Im suggesting you might be right sometimes... but most of the time I think you'll find yourself at the rez.

Even if both sides are of the same skill, you are still playing against other people who also think and come up with clever ideas. We also learn. Numbers matter, and I would be willing to bet all the gold on my freeps and creeps that the team with 5 players loses to the team with 10 more often than not.

I'm sure you know what Im talking about- youve been around the block. Lets not keep arguining to argue.

Zitat von ellestone

Executing the daring move against a larger force requires some luck.

Finding experienced creeps off guard and completely unaware that a bunch of freeps have gone all the way to ost and come all the way back to GV to flank them would certainly require some luck.

Its just a pretty simple idea. When less people kill more people, it would be a failure on the part of the side that had numbers.

You are suggesting that the unexperienced freeps we have on our server can just flank around the BB'ers and be successful. Im suggesting you might be right sometimes... but most of the time I think you'll find yourself at the rez.

Even if both sides are of the same skill, you are still playing against other people who also think and come up with clever ideas. We also learn. Numbers matter, and I would be willing to bet all the gold on my freeps and creeps that the team with 5 players loses to the team with 10 more often than not.

I'm sure you know what Im talking about- youve been around the block. Lets not keep arguining to argue.

Well said, but my point is that I would rather have fun, be daring, and end up at the rez than sit at GV or log out, but you do make very valid points.