Thread: Rend Bleed vs Rend Armor Reduction

I've gone through a few 2nd age weapons, and I have one that is starting to shape up with what I want (Crit multiplier/wild attack/the 2 rend legacies). I still have one reforge left for a new legacy(Aoe hopefully), but I am planning out which ones to lvl up. So here is my question, and it may be an easy one, which legacy would it be better to level up: Rend bleed or Rend armor reduction? Which of the two rend legacies has the potential to do more damage? My current thinking is the rend armor reduction is the better of the two and if I had to pick one, that's the one I'd max out. I just wanted to see what the community had to say. Thoughts...

Rend Bleed.

Originally Posted by Jarusador

I've gone through a few 2nd age weapons, and I have one that is starting to shape up with what I want (Crit multiplier/wild attack/the 2 rend legacies). I still have one reforge left for a new legacy(Aoe hopefully), but I am planning out which ones to lvl up. So here is my question, and it may be an easy one, which legacy would it be better to level up: Rend bleed or Rend armor reduction? Which of the two rend legacies has the potential to do more damage? My current thinking is the rend armor reduction is the better of the two and if I had to pick one, that's the one I'd max out. I just wanted to see what the community had to say. Thoughts...

My first post on the champ forums most champs would relpace the rend armor with a stat, DO NOT DO IT. Solo rend damage yes, raid, rend armor. Overall you can max RB and still put a few into RA. If you don't get AOE take remorse>brutal>feral.

I personally prefer Rend Armour. Rend Bleed Damage is cool and all, but technically Rend Armour can improve Rend Bleed Damage too, in addition to improving every other source of damage dealt to the targets with Rend on, which is huge. The larger the group, the more damage Rend Armour is going to add. That said though, even solo I prefer Rend Armour. 25% extra bleed damage on a common bleed is not that exciting, considering the legacy increases the bleed damage too (indirectly).

I think Improved Rend is one of our best traits, and capitalizing on the armour reduction is a great way to contribute to group DPS, even on single boss targets.

I would leave Rend Armro reduction on the weapon, but not put any empowerment scrolls on it nor put any points in it. you get the majority of the bonus just from having the legacy. You gain very little by putting any points in it.

I would cap out rend bleed though.

Cap out the bleed, replace the armour reduction with a stat. The reduction increases the AoE debuff by.....something less than 1% so if you like doing more damage go with the bleed. Also get a rune with +Pulses on it, ~100 dmg per tic every 2 seconds for 22 seconds is alot. Not to mention rend stacks now so it's completely worth it.

Originally Posted by Thorandril

Cap out the bleed, replace the armour reduction with a stat. The reduction increases the AoE debuff by.....something less than 1% so if you like doing more damage go with the bleed. Also get a rune with +Pulses on it, ~100 dmg per tic every 2 seconds for 22 seconds is alot. Not to mention rend stacks now so it's completely worth it.

Rend Duration is pretty much moot when you will probably just be refreshing it anyway thanks to cooldown blockage.

Rend Armour fully maxed is -661 armour. Again, that increases the bleed damage as well as every other source of damage offered. That adds up. A silly little common bleed doing 25% more damage (on an 80 damage DoT, that'll be about 20 or so) isn't going to be more than everyone doing more thanks to Rend's Armour Reduction.

Of course, that's only good if you run Improved Rend. If not, then it's another story.

Originally Posted by Feybobiam

Rend Duration is pretty much moot when you will probably just be refreshing it anyway thanks to cooldown blockage.

Rend Armour fully maxed is -661 armour. Again, that increases the bleed damage as well as every other source of damage offered. That adds up. A silly little common bleed doing 25% more damage (on an 80 damage DoT, that'll be about 20 or so) isn't going to be more than everyone doing more thanks to Rend's Armour Reduction.

Of course, that's only good if you run Improved Rend. If not, then it's another story.

I do run Improved Rend because I feel it is one of our best traits. I agree with this thinking, but I have heard people swear by Rend Bleed. I've talked with a bunch of different champs, and this seems to be evenly split between the two about which is more effective, with the bleed being a little more popular. I was just hoping someone would know the math to figure out which actually was a more effective damage legacy.

I see Rend armour as affecting all skills, where rend bleed just increases the bleed damage. But I don't know if the reduction in the armour warrants a legacy when the minor increase in the bleed may actually do more overall damage.

However, I agree on the idea that the overall reduction in armour is more useful for the group. I remember when Rend Armor was around 800 and we put out massive damage.

Hmm, not sure what to do.

Neither. Replace with stat legacy!

Originally Posted by Thorandril

Cap out the bleed, replace the armour reduction with a stat. The reduction increases the AoE debuff by.....something less than 1% so if you like doing more damage go with the bleed. Also get a rune with +Pulses on it, ~100 dmg per tic every 2 seconds for 22 seconds is alot. Not to mention rend stacks now so it's completely worth it.

Originally Posted by Comma44

Neither. Replace with stat legacy!

This is definitely wrong. replacing a legacy that might add 1% damage with a stat legacy that will add even less?

Again, i would keep the rend armor reduction, but not put any, or maybe just leftover points, into it.

Go for the armor man. As was stated above, it will increase the entire groups damage. Also, you will prob have enough points to do both. On my maxed out lvl 70 champ axe, I have weapon dps, remoresless, rend bleed, rend armor, AOE damage, and might maxed out. I also have wild attack and vit up in the high tiers. If I had to do it over again though, I'd prob take some out of might to add to the wild attack. My might, vit, and agility already go way over the cap with captain buffs thanks to the new scrolls from the store, so no reason to have points in that. Even if they weren't maxed, I'd prob still finish off wild attack over stats. So yeah, the item will have lots of points. When you max it out, you can prob max out most everything on it considering you take the time to farm out the scrolls of empowerment.

Unfortunately, the math on Rend Armour is pretty much impossible to crunch. Armour is relative, as some mobs have more mitigations than others, meaning -500 from a 10,000 armour'd mob means a lot less than -500 from a 1,000 armoured mob. On top of that are vulns, like melee and ranged and tactical which also vary and muck up numbers. I believe the "tier" of the mob can have an affect on the math as well (signature, elite, elite master, etc.). You can crunch the math on a single target, or similar targets, but we really only care about bosses, and bosses don't make good test subjects because of everyone else mucking things up. That's not the hard part though, the hard part is that there is basically no standard you can set because mobs vary so much in defences.

You can do 3 or 4 or 5% more on a sig, but that may not be true on a boss, where -500 doesn't mean the same thing thanks to a number of other factors.

That said, I'm still in favour of Rend Armour in every situation. Both is cool, but not at the expense of cooler things, like Wild or Remorseless.

Also, Might legacies ftl. We have way too much Might as it is.

From my tests in the past a maxed out Rend will increase DPS by 5.9% against the Marauder's in Gathburz. I got an estimate of what it would be against a more heavily armored mob by maxing out the armor on my champion and than removing the gauntlets. My common defense when from 8120 and 45.5% to 7445 and 43.2%, this means that damage against a 1000 point attack goes from 545 to 568 a 4.22% increase for a 675 point rend. Even most raid bosses are not going to have an armor value much higher than that, especially after being debuffed by others in the raid like the Loremaster. Overall I believe you will be looking at about a 4% to 6% increase in DPS from a maxed out Rend.

I like both but don't spend points on armour rend as the base legacy adds a nice bonus without the investment which would only get you a bit more.

I do however hate how Turbine grants us "Champions" such a weak armour rend when mobs back in the 30's were hitting us for -2000 armour and some end game mobs will reduce armour by 4000+ or even completely negate our entire armour value.

Originally Posted by Feybobiam

Also, Might legacies ftl. We have way too much Might as it is.

(Edit: Insert the jaw-drop smiley here. For some reason : o is embarrassment in this forum) Heresy. Are you sure you are a champ. We can never have too much might! (On a more serious note I stop when I hit 600 unbuffed.) I do agree that I should have taken wild attack>stats and rend legacies, but I was just getting into endgame when mirkwood came out and I got my axe.

Back on topic, I think neither are as important as your other legacies. If you plan on raiding a lot, I would take armor reduction>bleed. (Or you could put some points into both. You will probably have plenty anyway.)

Rend armor reduction is better imo. But the points can be better spent if you have a nice weapon.

One reason you might be getting split responses is people enjoy different parts of the game.

For raiding: armor red. > bleed
For moors: bleed > armor red.

My one hand has both and I am happy they are both capped. I can put a bleed on the LT slightly lower than a barbed arrow from a hunter, even with his high common mit. With rend pulses on your rune, this is nice.

Originally Posted by J.Aaron

On my maxed out lvl 70 champ axe, I have weapon dps, remoresless, rend bleed, rend armor, AOE damage, and might maxed out. I also have wild attack and vit up in the high tiers. If I had to do it over again though, I'd prob take some out of might to add to the wild attack.

I don't get it. It doesn't sound like you replaced WA with a different legacy, so why don't you just use a scroll of renewal and move some points from might to WA?

Don't level up rend armor, you get the majority of the benefit of the legacy simply from having it on the weapon. It is essentially a 1% increased dps boost by itself for your entire raid, which makes it worth keeping instead of trading out for a stat legacy.

Originally Posted by MikeA

From my tests in the past a maxed out Rend will increase DPS by 5.9% against the Marauder's in Gathburz. I got an estimate of what it would be against a more heavily armored mob by maxing out the armor on my champion and than removing the gauntlets. My common defense when from 8120 and 45.5% to 7445 and 43.2%, this means that damage against a 1000 point attack goes from 545 to 568 a 4.22% increase for a 675 point rend. Even most raid bosses are not going to have an armor value much higher than that, especially after being debuffed by others in the raid like the Loremaster. Overall I believe you will be looking at about a 4% to 6% increase in DPS from a maxed out Rend.

This only holds true if a mob's defences work like ours, specifically diminishing returns. It's easy to presume they do, but there's no real way to know for sure. Also, if their armour value applies to common and noncommon mits like ours do. I suppose it's possible to find that out somehow, but that'd take a heckuva lotta testing.

On a side note, would love some Dev confirmation on how armour works, but no big. /shrug

Originally Posted by J.Aaron

(Edit: Insert the jaw-drop smiley here. For some reason : o is embarrassment in this forum) Heresy. Are you sure you are a champ. We can never have too much might! (On a more serious note I stop when I hit 600 unbuffed.) I do agree that I should have taken wild attack>stats and rend legacies, but I was just getting into endgame when mirkwood came out and I got my axe.

I have so much Might I wear a 0 Might necklace and am wanting to get a 0 Might cloak. That's 120 Might I can drop right there, with no legacies or relics that offer Might. I do run Discipline though, but that's for the MDef.

I suppose rather than saying we have too much Might, one could say it's too easy to get Might to justify a Might scroll. But, I think your reasoning is justified for now. Also I'm sure you're just being silly for sake of silly.

Originally Posted by mhanc911

One reason you might be getting split responses is people enjoy different parts of the game.

For raiding: armor red. > bleed
For moors: bleed > armor red.

My one hand has both and I am happy they are both capped. I can put a bleed on the LT slightly lower than a barbed arrow from a hunter, even with his high common mit. With rend pulses on your rune, this is nice.

This is a very good point. Rend Damage in the Moors = win. Anywhere else, gimme Armour every time.

Originally Posted by Feybobiam

I have so much Might I wear a 0 Might necklace and am wanting to get a 0 Might cloak. That's 120 Might I can drop right there, with no legacies or relics that offer Might.

So I stalked your toon on mylotro cuz I was curious as to how you get so much might without a necklace or cloak. Except you're wearing similar jewellery to me and both your necklace and cloak have might on it (thaliongihil + cloak of shadow and flame). Granted maybe mylotro updated at a weird time when you weren't wearing your typical gear. But WITH that necklace and cloak you're at 597 which is just right. You're saying you would lose the 64 might (from cloak and necklace) and be ok with that? Or is there something else you wear instead? Just curious...

the Rend legacy improves the reduction so little that it's not a make or break legacy like the crit multiplier. However, it is certainly a very nice legacy to run with, and as you reduce the armour on 5 targets, remember this, you are not the only one in your raid with AoE skills, benefitting the group even more.

Originally Posted by Comma44

So I stalked your toon on mylotro cuz I was curious as to how you get so much might without a necklace or cloak. Except you're wearing similar jewellery to me and both your necklace and cloak have might on it (thaliongihil + cloak of shadow and flame). Granted maybe mylotro updated at a weird time when you weren't wearing your typical gear. But WITH that necklace and cloak you're at 597 which is just right. You're saying you would lose the 64 might (from cloak and necklace) and be ok with that? Or is there something else you wear instead? Just curious...

Didn't wanna reply to this until I confirmed my numbers.

I have all kinds of gear I swap between to test stuff. I've been testing Helegrod SHoulders/Boots for the +23 Might set bonus, and normally I wear TOrvegil instead of Manadhram, so that's a 45 Might jump there. Taking my Might neck off I'm at 613, and my 24-Might Shadow and Flame Cloak is basically all that's keep me above 600. If I dropped that and sat at 589, might not be such a hard thing to push Might elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Feybobiam

Didn't wanna reply to this until I confirmed my numbers.

I have all kinds of gear I swap between to test stuff. I've been testing Helegrod SHoulders/Boots for the +23 Might set bonus, and normally I wear TOrvegil instead of Manadhram, so that's a 45 Might jump there. Taking my Might neck off I'm at 613, and my 24-Might Shadow and Flame Cloak is basically all that's keep me above 600. If I dropped that and sat at 589, might not be such a hard thing to push Might elsewhere.

Okay, I'll be serious this time. I was just kidding with you since might is the most important stat for champs. You are right though, any champ who is built correctly has might out the wazoo. You just have to balance it with your other stats to get them all high. And whoever posted above is right. All I need to do is use a scroll of renewal. I'll do that some day