Thread: New Class: Beorning

Originally Posted by ararax2

It's a magical, therefore learned process.

i agree it has to be a magical process....

but why does it have to be learned?

why cant it be an innate magic?

Originally Posted by maradakia

[...] and Tolkien refers to the Beornings specifically as a bloodline of Men, related to and yet distinct from the Rohirrim, the Woodmen of Western Mirkwood, and the Bardings of Dale.

This is what I'm envisioning based on this statement: when someone creates their character and chooses Man for their race they would, for conformity, since Beornings are akin to Men of Dale or Rohan, I would contend that 'Beorning' should simply be a selection in the nationality drop-down. It's superficial at this point and purely cosmetic (with the exception of a nifty title,) yes, and doesn't mean anything in the context of game mechanics, but if they're related as stated (and I'm not disagreeing) then I'm not sure a greater distinction should be made. If, however, at some point it works out so that when you choose a nationality you get certain abilities or bonuses that reflect that choice at character creation then I could see something like shape-shifting showing up for a Beorning, perhaps as a skill that shows up sometime over character development, just like if you chose Dale/Barding you might be able to speak with birds, with Rohan you might get a horsemanship perk or something, etc.

They wouldn't be a 'class' because you aren't trained to be a Boerning - you're born one. Yet, they're also of Man-kind, and it'd be a long stretch in my opinion to try to make them their own race. If the above system were implemented where nationality bonuses applied then Beornings could be included as a subgroup to Man and have their own perks too.

Originally Posted by maradakia

Your argument at this point is based on saying that Beorn could not have had enough decendants at this time to found a character type on.

Tolkien repeatedly mentions: the land of the Beornings, the people called the Beornings, the language of the Beornings and it's derivation, the honey-cakes of the Beornings, and the participation of the Beornings in the battles in Mirkwood...

You are claiming that just because it's possible to interpret it that when Tolkien says "Beorning" here that these could all be Men from other clans who are led by Beorn's family, that therefore they can't be Beorn's kinfolk, and skin-changers.

Yeah, I would say it's a bit difficult to go from "woodsmen from the Anduin" to "Beorn's descendants" in one leap just because they started to follow him. Once those woodsmen did start to follow his leadership, they were known as Beornings. This isn't a matter of interpretation, this is, again, fact.

Just as you can interpret the text to have Beorn having few offspring of his own, and the larger population of Beornings being other Men who follow him, the text also solidly supports the possibility that Beorn had many decendants at this time, (it is mathematically quite plausible), and that Tolkien's references to "the Beornings" to mean solely Men of Beorn's family line. And in fact, the latter understanding is more consistent with the precedents set by Tolkien when speaking about peoples.

Again, you're just making my argument again. Aside from your extremely implausible mathematical approach, the FACT remains BEYOND interpretation that Grimbeorn is the only descandant of Beorn mentioned.

Just because you can at a bit of a stretch interpret these things to mean there were very few Beorings at the time, doesn't in any way preclude the fact that you can, and more easily, interpret these things to solidly support there being a great many Beornings, and certainly more than enough upon which to found this charcater type. After all, the least stretched interpretation of "Beorning" is Beorn's offspring, and not some amalgam of other peoples.

Since you have no interest in letting the quotes talk in full, I'll put this issue to rest once and for all:

"Yule-tide was warm and merry there; and men came from far and wide to feast at Beorn's bidding. The goblins of the Misty Mountains were now few and terrified, and hidden in the deepest holes they could find; and the Wargs had vanished from the woods, so that men went abroad without fear. Beorn indeed became a great chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood; and it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in the heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength. -- The Return Journey, The Hobbit


Throughout the rest of the meal they talked together, but Frodo listened more than he spoke; for the news of the Shire, apart from the Ring, seemed small and far-away and unimportant, while Gloin had much to tell of events in the northern regions of Wilderland. Frodo learned that Grimbeorn the Old, son of Beorn, was now the lord of many sturdy men, and to their land between the Mountains and Mirkwood neither orc nor wolf dared to go.

'Indeed,' said Gloin, 'if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible. They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high,' he added with a shake of his head; 'and like Beorn of old they are not fond of dwarves. Still, they are trusty, and that is much in these days. Nowhere are there any men so friendly to us as the Men of Dale. They are good folk, the Bardings. The grandson of Bard the Bowman rules them, Brand son of Bain son of Bard. He is a strong king, and his realm now reaches far south and east of Esgaroth.' -- Many Meetings, The Fellowship of the Ring


Now we can observe the literature without the knife-hack job you made of the quotes to fit your argument. In The Hobbit we can clearly see the narrator refers to men from the wilds around the Mirkwood and Anduin--men of small consequence, woodsmen, who came to Beorn's Halls under invitation. They then lived under him under his rule, which then applied for them to be known of his kin, or the Beornings. This FACT is further strengthened in Gloin is speaking to Frodo about Grimbeorn, who is now the leader of "many sturdy men." Grimbeorn rules the lands between the mountains and Mirkwood, and those of his kingdom are known as Beornings, just as the men who live in Dale and Esgaroth are known as Bardings. How this is not plain to see is really confusing to me--here Tolkien, a man beyond mine or your skill as a linguist, identifies the normal men who follow Grimbeorn as Beornings, just as he did the men who follow Brand as Bardings. But no, by your logic, the Bardings are all of Bard's children.

As far as I'm concerned this issue is now put to rest. If all you have to say is "Well, I interpret that differently," then good for you. Clearly in the very literature itself it is not suggested once that the men that come from the lands are Beorn's actual relatives (and clearly it would have been identified as much to the narrator, in this case Bilbo, that Beorn's family had come to celebrate with him), so there goes that idea. In that same passage it is mentioned only those of Beorn's direct line had the power he did, so now we're working on yet another fact that it was only Beorn's descendants that had this power. And as Grimbeorn most likely has a family, you seem to be under the impression that over 15,00 children of Beorn's direct line could have been born in 80 years FROM ONE FAMILY. This isn't plausible in the slightest--some towns in the era in which this story takes place wouldn't even see a birth rate amongst a hundred families like that IN A CENTURY and yet you claim it would be done by one family instead. Even if we ran with your ridiculous idea, this would give Grimbeorn an army of his own family larger than any orc could muster in the lands, a family that would far exceed the capabilities to live on the Carrock--a family greater than the force the Rohirrim, an entire kingdom nearly 900 years old, mustered to meet at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. This is not even mentioning the woodsmen who also lived under Grimbeorn. Again, this is all by your logic. And yet you're telling me you can sit there with a straight face and think that this was possible?

Either you ignore the facts or you contrive them to ridiculous proportions to fit your argument. Let me know when you wish to come back to reality and accept the fact that your interpretation is far off-base and that this, as a class, would never work within the confines of the lore.

Being intelectually honest requires separating statements that are opinion from fact. Stating something as fact that is not, makes for a mess of a discussion.

Lets look at the following quotes:

"Yule-tide was warm and merry there; and men came from far and wide to feast at Beorn's bidding. The goblins of the Misty Mountains were now few and terrified, and hidden in the deepest holes they could find; and the Wargs had vanished from the woods, so that men went abroad without fear. Beorn indeed became a great chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood; and it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength. In their day the last goblins were hunted from the Misty Mountains and a new peace came over the edge of the Wild." (The Hobbit: Ch.18 The Return Journey)

Originally Posted by AgamemnonV2

In The Hobbit we can clearly see the narrator refers to men from the wilds around the Mirkwood and Anduin--men of small consequence, woodsmen, who came to Beorn's Halls under invitation. They then lived under him under his rule, which then applied for them to be known of his kin, or the Beornings.

Men coming from far and wide to feast with Beorn for Yule-tide does not make them his followers, or his kin. It could be either or, it could simply be people from far and wide who came for the festival and then went home after. Your stating as though it is definitive fact, that these people stayed with him and were ruled by him, and after being called Beornings, is not in the text - it's not even an interpretation - it's your extrapolation. Your suggested viewpoint is fine - but it is not fact.

When Tolkien writes "became a great chief... and ruled a wide land" this can of course be interpreted to imply that these men he ruled are not his kin. However, this quote also supports the understanding that these men over whom he ruled were his own people - his kin. Also, the second half of the sentance strongly supports (does not prove, but supports) that these men are Beorn's family. Right after saying Beorn ruled a wide land, it continues with "...for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape". This is followed by saying "In their day the last goblins were hunted from the Misty Mountains..." "In their day" seems to be referring to "the men of his line".

Not liking the latter interpretation doesn't detract from it's legitimacy.

"Grimbeorn the Old, son of Beorn, was now the lord of many sturdy men, and to their land between the Mountains and Mirkwood neither orc nor wolf dared to go. 'Indeed,' said Gloin, 'if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible. They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high,' he added with a shake of his head; 'and like Beorn of old they are not over fond of dwarves. Still, they are trusty, and that is much in these days." (The Fellowship of The Ring: Many Meetings)

Again, though "many sturdy men" could be interpreted as not being Beorn's kinfolk, it could also be understood as being his kin. The following sentence specifically refers to these men as "Beornings" which, though we can presume are only being called such as Beorn's followers, not his family, the last sentence draws a direct and personal connection with Beorn saying " ...and like Beorn of old they are not over fond of dwarves. Still, they are trusty, and that is much in these days."
In the above sentence it also says "They are valiant men..." which you highlighted as if to say that proves that the name "Beorning" means men who are not of Beorn's line. However, we must keep in mind that Beorn and the men of his line, were men. Tolkien states clearly in his April 25, 1954 letter to Naomi Mitchison
that "Beorn was a Man" (Letters 178). And in any case it would not fit to say: They are valiant Beornings...

Now look at the next sentence:

"Nowhere are there any men so friendly to us as the Men of Dale. They are good folk, the Bardings. The grandson of Bard the Bowman rules them, Brand son of Bain son of Bard. He is a strong king, and his realm now reaches far south and east of Esgaroth.' (ibid)

Originally Posted by AgamemnonV2

This FACT is further strengthened in Gloin is speaking to Frodo about Grimbeorn, who is now the leader of "many sturdy men." Grimbeorn rules the lands between the mountains and Mirkwood, and those of his kingdom are known as Beornings, just as the men who live in Dale and Esgaroth are known as Bardings. How this is not plain to see is really confusing to me--here Tolkien, a man beyond mine or your skill as a linguist, identifies the normal men who follow Grimbeorn as Beornings, just as he did the men who follow Brand as Bardings. But no, by your logic, the Bardings are all of Bard's children.

Based upon this quote you have determined that it's a fact (in all capitals : P) that the Beornings are other men ruled by Beorn's family, the same as you seem to have decided that the Bardings are other men, not related to Bard, but ruled by his family.

However much it doesn't fit the case you're trying to make, the Men of Dale are actually explicitly called a race by Tolkien.

"Suddenly out of the dark something fluttered to his shoulder. He started - but iit was only an old thrush. Unafraid it perched by his ear and it brought him news. Marvelling, he found he could understand its tongue, for he was of the race of Dale" (The Hobbit: Fire and Water)

Gimli asks about the Rohirrim, "What do you know of these horsemen, Aragorn?" And he answers, "...It was in forgotten years long ago the Eorl the Young brought them out of the North, and their kinship is rather with the Bardings of Dale, and with the Beornings of the Wood..." (The Two Towers: The Riders of Rohan)


"Most of the Men of the northern regions of the West-lands were descended from the Edain of the First Age, or from their close kin. Their languages were, therefore, related to the Adunaic, and some still preserved a likeness to the Common Speech. Of this kind were the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin: the Beornings, and the Woodmen of Western Mirkwood; and further north and east the Men of the Long Lake and of Dale. From the lands between the Gladden and the Carrock came the folk that were known in Gondor as the Rohirrim, Masters of Horses." (The Return of The King: Appendix F)


"The Eotheod had moved to those regions in the days of King Earnil II from the lands in the vales of Anduin between the Carrock and the Gladden, and they were in origin close akin to the Beornings and the men of the west-eaves of the forest." ( The Return of The King: Appendix A)

In all of these quotes there foundation to interpret the Beornings as a people, a kin, a bloodline. You can still reasonably interpret all these things in other ways, but you can't in fairness dismiss the possibility that they are a family either.

You also repeatedly suggested that the Woodmen are the Beornings, or joined them, or became them in some way:

Originally Posted by AgamemnonV2

Yeah, I would say it's a bit difficult to go from "woodsmen from the Anduin" to "Beorn's descendants" in one leap just because they started to follow him. Once those woodsmen did start to follow his leadership, they were known as Beornings. This isn't a matter of interpretation, this is, again, fact ... woodsmen, who came to Beorn's Halls under invitation. They then lived under him under his rule... This is not even mentioning the woodsmen who also lived under Grimbeorn.

Tolkien never wrote that woodsmen started to follow Beorn. In the above quotes Tolkien discusses the Rohirrim, the Bardings, the Beornings, and the Woodmen, each as a separate and distinct race, though related to one another.

Your interpretation is just fine, but it is not fact. Nor is my interpretation fact. Fact would be if Tolkien wrote: Now these men called the Beornings were not of his line, but other local peoples who came in time to follow him. (<- I made up that sentence : P)

Based on the places where "Beorning" is specifically discussed by Tolkien as a genetic pool, I think the interpretation leans towards the understanding that they are not an aggregate of other peoples, but that doesn't make it a fact one way or the other.

In the end the question is not if he had many descendants anyhow, it's how many were there at the time of The War of The Ring. Actually, for our purposes in LOTRO, the question isn't how many were there, but: Is there a reasonable and legitimate understanding of the texts that suggest a large enough group of Beorn's descendants for a character class. We'd have to ask Turbine if they have any specific requirements in terms of numbers for basing a character type on.

Based on their being 5 Hobbits outside the Shire, (none of whom we are allowed to play as, or use the name of), and Tolkien's emphasis that you almost never find a Hobbit outside the Shire, since they seriously frown upon adventures... you'd have to say simply the existence of the race is enough for a LOTRO player character. The LM is built on the Istari who are Maiar, and are obviously off limits, and there's 5 of them also. Look at numbers of Dwarves in Lorien, or Elves in the Shire, or Men of Bree in Moria. We wont even mention the RK. Those are lore breaking, but it is the precedent Turbine has set which we are working with. Meanwhile, on the other hand there is no question that you can solidly and reasonably understand the text to say that the Beornings (who are famous to the Dwarves for their honey-cakes; and who keep the passage from Dale to Rivendell open; and who are gifted with extra lands by Thranduil after Sauron's forces are driven from Mirkwood) are indeed Beorn's descendants we are referring to, who "for many generations...had the power of taking bear's shape".

Now you may not like it that Turbine made these choices, and disagree with their approach, but it is them I am asking to add Beornings as a playable character type.

What you can legitimately say, and what you've made 100% clear, is that you do not like the interpretation that the Beornings were numerous at the end of the Third Age, and that you very much don't want to see a skin-changer character in this game.

That does not mean there isn't a very solid leg to stand on to understand Tolkien's writings to say the Beornings were Beorn's kinsmen, and that they were a large population. It also so happens that thus far in my previous thread and this new one, only 26 people were aginst the idea, while 57 were strongly in favor.

Originally Posted by AgamemnonV2

Again, you're just making my argument again. Aside from your extremely implausible mathematical approach, the FACT remains BEYOND interpretation that Grimbeorn is the only descandant of Beorn mentioned.

The fact is not that Grimbeorn is the only descendant mentioned, but rather that he's the only one given a name, while "many generations" of descendants are mentioned.

We can't say definitely how many men of Beorn's line were alive at the end of the Third Age because Tolkien does not tell us. We can only estimate based on other available information. All the text says is that "for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape". We know there were "many generations", we just don't know how many at this point.

What part of the math is "extremely implausible"? These are the numbers:

From the Battle of Five Armies in 2941 to The War of The Ring in 3018 is 77 years.

Beorn was obviously not an infant when we met him in The Hobbit. We don't know his age since Tolkien didn't tell us. To be fair though the text leads one to believe he has been around a long time. I don't want to be further insulted for my estimates, but it is more than reasonable to assume he was at least 23 years old, though I don't think anyone would say he was that young.

You also need to take into account what the minimum age for Grimbeorn to have been named "the Old" at could be. Beor the Old lived to 93. Aldor the Old, ruled 75 years and lived to be 101.

23 years old (probably much younger than Beorn was) plus the 77 years until the War of The Ring is 100 years.

The standard time for a generation is 20 years. This equals 5 generation's time.

Though you might not like it, there is nothing "extremely implausible" about the possibility that they could have had 5 children per generation. Sure, they could have had fewer, but they also could have had more. Suggesting we know for a fact that Beorning skin-changers in Middle-earth never had 5 children is just silly.

5x5x5x5x5 = 3,125

Maybe that surprises you, that with just 5 kids, in 5 generations/100 years, you'd have 3,125 descendants, but that's the math.

If Beorn was 43, that would be 6 generations/120 years, and you'd have 15,625 descendants. I'm not saying he did have that many descendants - The math says with five kids in 6 generations he could have that many.

With only 3 children per generation this still comes to 243.

Also, Beorn had parents. It is possible that he's already part of a family of skin-changers. Gandalf does call him "a skin-changer", which suggest there could be others. That may seem improbable to you, but it still remains a reasonable possibility. Maybe he only had 100 descendants. Who knows.

You say:

Originally Posted by AgamemnonV2

This isn't plausible in the slightest--some towns in the era in which this story takes place wouldn't even see a birth rate amongst a hundred families like that IN A CENTURY and yet you claim it would be done by one family instead.

I have no idea what "era" you are talking about. This is Middle-earth, at the end of the Third Age, and these are Beorn's desecendants, the skin-changers. We have no basis to claim we know what their birth rate is.

You have fun repeating yourself. I've proved beyond a doubt that this is not a supported idea within the lore. Good luck convincing the others that are less-informed.

Originally Posted by AgamemnonV2

You have fun repeating yourself. I've proved beyond a doubt that this is not a supported idea within the lore. Good luck convincing the others that are less-informed.

in your own mind maybe...if you had done so in this reality the jury would agree and the judge would dismiss the case...

since because you proved it beyond a doubt no one would be able to counter.

also attacking the intelligence of folks who disagree with you isnt gonna win anyone over to your side.

Originally Posted by Darej

in your own mind maybe...if you had done so in this reality the jury would agree and the judge would dismiss the case...

since because you proved it beyond a doubt no one would be able to counter.

also attacking the intelligence of folks who disagree with you isnt gonna win anyone over to your side.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating yourself as well. I'm not trying to "win" anyone over--the people that agree with me are the same people that disproved this topic a year ago as well. And, like clockwork, the people that agree with the OP are the same people that agreed with him a year ago as well. All this is is round two of the same topic with the same facts and the same argument.

Originally Posted by AgamemnonV2

You have fun repeating yourself. I've proved beyond a doubt that this is not a supported idea within the lore. Good luck convincing the others that are less-informed.

I have to side with maradakia on this. His (or her) arguments are are well-rounded, lore-based, and reasonable. We are talking about the possibility of there being a Beorning out there in Middle-earth during the time of the War of the Ring, and whether or not anyone else agrees that it was definite, or even likely, there is ample reason to believe it was at the least possible. That's really all Turbine needs, assuming they even care to bother justifying the creation of a class against the lore. Given the constant whining about Rune-keepers, plenty of people don't seem to think they do, anyway.

In any case, I would certainly think it more likely to find Beornings involved in the heavy front-line fighting in this war than an army of Hobbits, which we already have.

The suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you, AgamemnonV2, is less-informed, is as flawed as suggesting that something is FACT when it's really just your conclusion. You have utterly failed to prove beyond a doubt that this is not an idea that the lore supports. You've raised some concerns, and objections based upon them, but beyond a doubt? Not even close.

You've drawn some interesting conclusions, and I can see why you feel the way you do, but once you start with "this is FACT," (even when it's not) it's not far to "therefore everyone must reach the same conclusion." Leaving aside the fallacy of that in much of anything outside of math, if what it's predicated on is fallacious itself, well. You can have your debate club victory in your mind, but out here, you've lost.

Originally Posted by dubsyubsy

In any case, I would certainly think it more likely to find Beornings involved in the heavy front-line fighting in this war than an army of Hobbits, which we already have.

At the Battle of Fornost (TA 1975), the hobbits sent a company of archers, who never returned. At the Battle of the Greenfields (TA 2747), the hobbits defended against an invading band of orcs.

At the battle of Five Armies, the Beornings only sent one person, Beorn. At the Battle of Mirkwood (Thranduil's realm, not Dol Guldur), the Beornings sent nobody. At the siege of Lorien, The Beornings sent nobody. At the Siege of Erebor and the Battle of Dale, The Beornings sent nobody.

The Beornings may be better suited for front-line fighting, but their track record certainly doesn't show it.

Originally Posted by dubsyubsy

You've drawn some interesting conclusions, and I can see why you feel the way you do, but once you start with "this is FACT," (even when it's not) it's not far to "therefore everyone must reach the same conclusion." Leaving aside the fallacy of that in much of anything outside of math, if what it's predicated on is fallacious itself, well. You can have your debate club victory in your mind, but out here, you've lost.

Ksh. Hello, pot? This is kettle, over.

Actually, what I did was express with whom I agreed, and why. I did not say that everyone else must agree with me, or that they were "less-informed" if they didn't. We're not pot and kettle, sir. Maybe apple and orange. I call orange!

In the battle of possible and impossible, possible has it easier unless impossible is explicitly defined by an authoritative source. Without that, anything's... well, possible.

As far as examples of Hobbits involved in the War (aside from the five major characters), a single militarised company that is never heard from again vs. an unknown quantity single-handedly keeping an entire area free of the enemy enough that allies can pass? I take your point, but I'd also take the unknown quantity in this contrast; it is what I based my conclusion upon in the first place. People rising up to defend their home from attack is kind of a gimme.

Originally Posted by dubsyubsy

As far as examples of Hobbits involved in the War (aside from the five major characters), a single militarised company that is never heard from again vs. an unknown quantity single-handedly keeping an entire area free of the enemy enough that allies can pass?

The Hobbits defended their homeland and sent troops to defend their allies.
The Beornings defended their homeland and...well, nothing.

Most of your supporting quotes are from the Hobbit, do Turbine have the rights to this, there may be a reference to Grimbeorn in LOTR but is there a mention of shape changing in LOTR which is the crux of your arguement?.

Originally Posted by dubsyubsy

In the battle of possible and impossible, possible has it easier unless impossible is explicitly defined by an authoritative source. Without that, anything's... well, possible.

By this logic we should have dragon mounts in this game. There's plenty of lore to support dragons in Middle-earth. We also know they were intelligent beings. Why can we also not infer that perhaps some were nice and decided to let the heroes of Middle-earth ride on their back? After all, it's never explicitly defined that it's not impossible by a source. And why should we stop there with this logic? In the narration of The Hobbit, there is a mention to a "pop-gun" sound. Since this is an obvious reference to firearms, how do we not know that there are not firearms in Middle-earth? After all, all that is required is black powder, correct? And it's clear that Saruman has created this as well.

Please, when talking about flawed logic, Mr. Pot, make sure that Mr. Kettle doesn't agree with you.

Originally Posted by Morthaur

Most of your supporting quotes are from the Hobbit, do Turbine have the rights to this, there may be a reference to Grimbeorn in LOTR but is there a mention of shape changing in LOTR which is the crux of your arguement?.

as i have posted a couple times in this thread....Turbine is licensed by SZC to use lore from The Hobbit and LOTR and their appendices.

and while that is all they can use....they also have to strive to not contradict the sources they do not have the rights to use...

Though Hobbits have historically had a few battles, it's very much scued to imply they were warriors or adventurers of any kind, except for the needle in a haystack cases like Bilbo. Right up front we are told that Hobbits frown strongly on adventures and those who go on them. And the handful of Hobbits we learn about who did become warriors, relatively speaking, were certainly not remotely as tough as our characters. They probably weren't tougher than maybe a level 10-15 or so character, taking on forts full of brigands and wolves, and giants spiders etc...

Meanwhile, the Beornings most certainly did participate in the War of The Ring, and not only in defending their own lands.

"...to their land between the Mountains and Mirkwood neither orc nor wolf dared to go. 'lndeed,' said Gloin, `if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible." (The Fellowship of The Ring: Many Meetings) [color=green]

The Beornings are responsible for keeping this critical passage open.

"...and it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength. In their day the last goblins were hunted from the Misty Mountains and a new peace came over the edge of the Wild." (The Hobbit: Ch.18 The Return Journey)

And there is of course Beorn's own participation, in aid of, and alongside Elves, Men of Dale, Dwarves, one Hobbit and one Wizard : ) His help in the Battle of Five Armies was pivotal to that battle, and critical in it's effect on the War of The Ring.

"As it is, I can only say that I have hurried home as fast as I could to see that you are safe, and to offer you any help I can. I shall think more kindly of dwarves after this" (The Hobbit, Chapter 7; Queer Lodgings, pg 120-121)

"A goblin's head was stuck outside the gate, and a warg skin was nailed to a tree just beyond. Beorn was a fierce enemy. But now he was their friend..." (H ch.7)

" Then Beorn stooped and lifted Thorin, who had fallen pierced with spears, and bore him out of the fray." (The Hobbit: chapter 18)

That's just Beorn of course, but still important to remember since we know this about his desecendants: "...most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength. In their day the last goblins were hunted from the Misty Mountains and a new peace came over the edge of the Wild." (The Hobbit: Ch.18 The Return Journey)

The Beornings are significant enough as a fighting force in The War of The Ring that they're a concern of Sauron's as he plans his attack, which Frodo catches a glimpse of: "The Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions... everywhere he looked he saw signs of war. The Misty Mountains were crawling like anthills: orcs were issuing out of a thousand holes. Under the boughs of Mirkwood there was deadly strife of Elves and Men and fell beasts. The land of the Beornings was aflame; a cloud was over Moria; smoke rose on the borders of Lórien." (The Fellowship of The Ring; The Breaking of The Fellowship)

Sauron envisions orcs swarming out of the Misty Mountains, which the Beornings are repeatedly quoted as the main opponent of. Sauron's hopes of conquering the forces at Mirkwood is also thwarted with the aid of the Beornings. And then of course there's his specific hope to burn their own lands.

The Beornings are also granted additional lands after this apparently for their aid of Thranduil in defending the region: "And on the day of the New Year of the Elves. Celeborn and Thranduil met in the midst of the forest; and they renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen, The Wood of Greenleaves. Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lórien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen." (The Return of The King; Appendix B)

Originally Posted by AgamemnonV2

By this logic we should have dragon mounts in this game. There's plenty of lore to support dragons in Middle-earth. We also know they were intelligent beings. Why can we also not infer that perhaps some were nice and decided to let the heroes of Middle-earth ride on their back? After all, it's never explicitly defined that it's not impossible by a source. And why should we stop there with this logic? In the narration of The Hobbit, there is a mention to a "pop-gun" sound. Since this is an obvious reference to firearms, how do we not know that there are not firearms in Middle-earth? After all, all that is required is black powder, correct? And it's clear that Saruman has created this as well.

Please, when talking about flawed logic, Mr. Pot, make sure that Mr. Kettle doesn't agree with you.

I'm sorry if this is hard for you to accept, Apples, but your sarcastic exposition is exactly what I said in seriousness, and there is no flaw in it. Whether or not their audience would be happy with those sorts of additions to the game, and whether or not that would in turn impact their bottom line, which is the real number one concern in the end, unless something is explicitly said to be impossible, or has the number of times it's happened very narrowly defined, there is, quite literally, nothing to say that it hasn't been or cannot be. Nothing written by the source, in this case, not just a source, which is a flaw in your "logic."

Will Turbine do any of those things? Probably not, but the real question isn't "is it in the lore or not," in the end, but "will we gain numbers if we do this, or lose them?" At the end of the day, the real consideration is, "will this make us more money than it costs us to produce?"

Originally Posted by dubsyubsy

Will Turbine do any of those things? Probably not, but the real question isn't "is it in the lore or not," in the end, but "will we gain numbers if we do this, or lose them?" At the end of the day, the real consideration is, "will this make us more money than it costs us to produce?"

While profits are of course important to a company, this is not a case of something that departs from the books being pushed through for sales.

Beornings are not a deviation from the lore. There are many Beorning skin-changers explicitly - "...most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength." (The Hobbit: Ch.18 The Return Journey) How many were present at this time is not clear, but there is plenty Tolkien wrote that suggests there was a host of them.

These sections of the text can also be interpreted as meaning not so many if you say "the Beornings" are not Beorn's family. The text is ambiguous and lends itself to either interpretation. I've demonstrated how in various places it leans towards "the Beornings" as a bloodline, but either way there's certainly more than enough that solidly supports understanding them to be Beorn's family.

Originally Posted by maradakia

Though Hobbits have historically had a few battles, it's very much scued to imply they were warriors or adventurers of any kind, except for the needle in a haystack cases like Bilbo. Right up front we are told that Hobbits frown strongly on adventures and those who go on them.

"In Eriador they soon mingled with the other kinds that had preceded them, but being somewhat bolder and more adventurous, they were often found as leaders or chieftains among clans of Harfoots or Stoors. Even in Bilbo's time the strong Fallohidish strain could still be noted among the greater families, such as the Tooks and the Masters of Buckland." (The Fellowship of The Ring: Concerning Hobbits)

"...to their land between the Mountains and Mirkwood neither orc nor wolf dared to go. 'lndeed,' said Gloin, `if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible." (The Fellowship of The Ring: Many Meetings)

"They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high" (The Fellowship of The Ring: Many Meetings)

This tells me that this was not part of a war, but simply the defense and maintenance of a road that runs through their homeland.

And there is of course Beorn's own participation, in aid of, and alongside Elves, Men of Dale, Dwarves, one Hobbit and one Wizard : ) His help in the Battle of Five Armies was pivotal to that battle, and critical in it's effect on the War of The Ring.

Yet among an unknown number of skin-changers, he was the only one who came.

The Beornings are significant enough as a fighting force in The War of The Ring that they're a concern of Sauron's as he plans his attack, which Frodo catches a glimpse of:

Saruman attacked the Shire, does that mean the hobbits were a threat to his power?

The Beornings are also granted additional lands after this apparently for their aid of Thranduil in defending the region:

"...to their land between the Mountains and Mirkwood neither orc nor wolf dared to go." (The Fellowship of The Ring: Many Meetings)

Before the war started, the region was called "their land". While your theory is possible, it's also just as possible that Thranduil was officially giving the Beornings the land that they had claimed as their own for so long, just as Elessar did with the Shire.

Originally Posted by dubsyubsy

Will Turbine do any of those things? Probably not, but the real question isn't "is it in the lore or not," in the end, but "will we gain numbers if we do this, or lose them?" At the end of the day, the real consideration is, "will this make us more money than it costs us to produce?"

The IP is owned by Middle-earth Enterprises formerly known as Tolkien Enterprises, a division of The Saul Zaentz Company. If SZC says no, Turbine can't do it without running a risk of losing their license.

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

"In Eriador they soon mingled with the other kinds that had preceded them, but being somewhat bolder and more adventurous, they were often found as leaders or chieftains among clans of Harfoots or Stoors. Even in Bilbo's time the strong Fallohidish strain could still be noted among the greater families, such as the Tooks and the Masters of Buckland." (The Fellowship of The Ring: Concerning Hobbits)

Hey Stavro, what is the case you're trying to make? That there are some Hobbits that compared to the others are more adventurous? Even though some Hobbits show a bolder spirit than others does not mean there's a reasonable leg to stand on to have Hobbit guardians tanking Balrogs.

If you reply to this, I'd ask you to suggest what you'd estimate to be the comparitive Lotro level of the most warrior-like Hobbit alive in our time frame. My guesstimate would be not higher than equivalent to our level 15 characters.

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

"'Indeed,' said Gloin, 'if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible. They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high..." (The Fellowship of The Ring: Many Meetings)

This tells me that this was not part of a war, but simply the defense and maintenance of a road that runs through their homeland.

What their primary motivation might have been (defending the lands, or collecting tarrifs) is obviously speculative conjecture, and more importantly doesn't change the fact that the Beornings are responsible for keeping this critical path open to the Free Peoples. You can't argue that the Beornings didn't take part in ridding the land of orcs and wargs without directly contradicting what Tolkien said.

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

"...to their land between the Mountains and Mirkwood neither orc nor wolf dared to go." (The Fellowship of The Ring: Many Meetings)

Before the war started, the region was called "their land". While your theory is possible, it's also just as possible that Thranduil was officially giving the Beornings the land that they had claimed as their own for so long, just as Elessar did with the Shire.

The lands of the Beornings before the gift from Thranduil is described as between the Mountains and Mirkwood. It doesn't seem to include land in Mirkwood. Thranduil took the northern forest, and Celeborn the southern wood below the Narrows - "all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen." (The Return of The King; Appendix B) It doesn't say anywhere that these lands were the habitation of the Beornings previously.

Either way, we clearly see that the Beornings are the fearsome foe of orcs and wargs, who kept the passage open from Dale to Rivendell, who cleared Sauron's minions out of the Misty Mountains, and (though it's possible to interpret otherwise) seem to have allied with Thranduil, Celeborn, and the Woodmen in overcoming Sauron's assault there.

Originally Posted by maradakia

Hey Stavro, what is the case you're trying to make? That there are some Hobbits that compared to the others are more adventurous?

My point was that their disdain for adventurers is relatively recent (in large part due to Gandalf), and that there are more than the few adventurers specifically named in the books.

If you reply to this, I'd ask you to suggest what you'd estimate to be the comparitive Lotro level of the most warrior-like Hobbit alive in our time frame. My guesstimate would be not higher than equivalent to our level 15 characters.

I'd guess about the same, though some hobbits from not long before Bilbo's time were likely much higher.

You can't argue that the Beornings didn't take part in ridding the land of orcs and wargs without directly contradicting what Tolkien said.

I never made the claim that they didn't fight servants of the enemy, I made the opposite claim when I said that they defended their lands. What I was responding to was not the facts of what they did, but your conclusion that keeping the paths clear was part of the war itself.

It doesn't say anywhere that these lands were the habitation of the Beornings previously.

My mistake, I read "between" as meaning between the mountains and the two forest realms.

Either way, we clearly see that the Beornings are the fearsome foe of orcs and wargs, who kept the passage open from Dale to Rivendell, who cleared Sauron's minions out of the Misty Mountains

Absolutely no argument here. But given the fact that most of the above took place in or immediately adjacent to their homeland, these actions could be interpreted as defense rather than lending aid to others.

As for directly allying with the neighboring kingdoms, there's really not enough info in either direction. Between all the writings (both licensed and unlicensed), we have a lot of details on the battles in nearby lands, but little to no information on what battles the Beornings took part in.

Originally Posted by dubsyubsy

Rawr, capitalism!

Dear Bugs Bunny,

See below:

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

The IP is owned by Middle-earth Enterprises formerly known as Tolkien Enterprises, a division of The Saul Zaentz Company. If SZC says no, Turbine can't do it without running a risk of losing their license.

Sincerely,

Rabbit Season

Originally Posted by maradakia

The text is ambiguous and lends itself to either interpretation.

No, it doesn't. We've established this about four times now. Although I admit it's pointless to keep pointing this out to you because you just attempt to drown it out in quotes you've quoted about twenty times already.

Originally Posted by maradakia

While profits are of course important to a company, this is not a case of something that departs from the books being pushed through for sales.

I agree, I think you've more than made a sufficient case for this class/race to be on the table in future development.

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

The IP is owned by Middle-earth Enterprises formerly known as Tolkien Enterprises, a division of The Saul Zaentz Company. If SZC says no, Turbine can't do it without running a risk of losing their license.

At which point, it will obviously cost them more to produce than it will net them.

Profits and losses aside, maradakia is essentially asking, by Tolkien's lore, would it be possible for Beornings to be developed as a playable race/class? The answer is clearly "yes." There are some gray areas that are open to interpretation, but without their numbers clearly and explicitly defined, the door is open for players to take up this mantle and run with it. And again, citing Rune-keepers, if Turbine wants to make something that might be a stretch (and this seems less of one than that), they'll not only find a way to do it, but please a fair portion of their audience, as well.

Look at what they did with that class. The skill descriptions all suggest the class is some sort of prophetic orator, who chips away at the enemy's morale by essentially mocking them with scathing speech. This fits their model of morale and hope/dread instead of "hit points," and it keeps the class relatively tame as far as "magic" goes. People who don't care to look that closely at the skill descriptions and just want some flash and bang can also find something to enjoy, with bright colours and dramatic visuals. The entire presentation, and the inspiration they claim, is a bit of a stretch, to be sure. Even so, they've made it work. You may personally abhor it, but you're still here, and the class has legions of devotees. For Turbine's bottom line, it's a win-win.

Would you actually leave the game if Turbine announced Beornings as a playable race/class for Isengard? My guess is that it would take a lot more than that, if not for you, than for the vast majority of the player base. Will more people come to LotRO if they announce Beornings? I honestly don't have any idea, but I'm having trouble seeing how more options for more playstyles hurts the game, either for existing players, or newcomers.

Originally Posted by dubsyubsy

Would you actually leave the game if Turbine announced Beornings as a playable race/class for Isengard?

Want to know what most subscribers did after Mines of Moria?

Originally Posted by dubsyubsy

There are some gray areas that are open to interpretation, but without their numbers clearly and explicitly defined, the door is open for players to take up this mantle and run with it.

It's not about the numbers, it's about their seclusion. Outside of the one individual who participated at the battle of five armies, the Beornings are never known to travel out of their homelands, let alone come to the aid of other nations.

Of the Beornings alive during the war, we know that they cleared the Misty Mountains of goblins, and they kept the road going through their homeland safe, though they are never said to have participated in any of the battles in Rhovanion. Yes, there are a few passages where one may assume that the Beornings participated, but Tolkien rarely wrote in a manner where the reader must assume the meaning. In the few cases that he did, the matter is soon clarified.

If we had even one unambigous example of the Beornings coming to the aid of others during the war of the ring (from any of Tolkien's works), then I'll admit that a class of Beornings coming to the aid of Eriador would not be in direct contradiction of the lore. But as it is, I believe there are too many assumptions being made.

Originally Posted by AgamemnonV2

Want to know what most subscribers did after Mines of Moria?

Apparently, they got their friends to come play, because the subscriber base actually grew, as Aaron Campbell said in June of 2009. That would be after November 18, 2008, when Mines of Moria released. Aside from that, I found people saying that Turbine does not release hard numbers on their subscriber base, so unless Turbine is actually flat-out lying to the press about this, word is, numbers are up. Similar statements followed the shift to F2P.

You personally may have known people who left, but as the saying goes, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

Stavro, I hear where you're coming from, and I definitely see your point. It looks like we just fall on different sides of the line that says "impossible" for this kind of thing.

I read almost the entire op and its good and it has some nce ideas and suggestions , also this seems enough lotr and based on books it seems that it would fit the lore but if you think of it it doesnt
From what i understand Beornings where not a very populated race and they were not traveling all around towns and inns but they were simple only in the mounatins and forests near Mirkwood
With that said i think it would be lore breaking to see all around big hairy man like bears in Bree or inns like Prancing ponny or inns in the Shire
It might be a good idea but its lore breaking, so nope i wouldnt like this new race in lotro

Originally Posted by Eric...

I read almost the entire op and its good and it has some nce ideas and suggestions , also this seems enough lotr and based on books it seems that it would fit the lore but if you think of it it doesnt
From what i understand Beornings where not a very populated race and they were not traveling all around towns and inns but they were simple only in the mounatins and forests near Mirkwood
With that said i think it would be lore breaking to see all around big hairy man like bears in Bree or inns like Prancing ponny or inns in the Shire
It might be a good idea but its lore breaking, so nope i wouldnt like this new race in lotro

how is it lore breaking...if you read most of the thread you had to have seen the many ideas for avoiding your concerns.

the bit about traveling around everywhere...well...we already got 3 races doing that..wats a 4th

as for seeing man-bears at the PP or anywhere else...easy...combat-only toggle state and possibly legendary only.

Champion -melee- (heavy Armour)
Warden -Melee- with some ranged (medium armor)
Captain -Melee- (heavy Armor)
Guardian -Melee- (heavy armor)
Burglar -Melee- (medium armor)

Hunter -Ranged- (medium)
Rune-Keeper -Ranged- (light)
Lore Master -Ranged- (light)
Minstrel -Ranged- (light (but can trait medium))

I do not believe another class is needed.

The Beorner class was introduced to another game about 9 or 10 years ago, it was chat room text based game on AOL, called Urth's Legacy. It (beorner) received nothing but complaints and was a fail fail. It was replaced with Berserker. Maybe that is why i dont think another class is needed.

It doesn't ever say anywhere that the Beornings lived in seclusion, nor does it even hint at that.

Lets look at Beorn first: In the Hobbit Beorn seems to be a fairly keep to himself sort of fellow, but then again he hosts a gaggle of dwarves, Gandalf, and Bilbo. He feeds them, lets them stay with him for days, hunts down orcs and wargs that were after them, and gives them provisions and very special mounts to help them on their way. Then he shows up to ally with Men, Dwarves, and Elves in the Battle of Five Armies.

"As it is, I can only say that I have hurried home as fast as I could to see that you are safe, and to offer you any help I can. I shall think more kindly of dwarves after this" (The Hobbit, Chapter 7; Queer Lodgings, pg 120-121)

"A goblin's head was stuck outside the gate, and a warg skin was nailed to a tree just beyond. Beorn was a fierce enemy. But now he was their friend..." (H ch.7)

"Then Beorn stooped and lifted Thorin, who had fallen pierced with spears, and bore him out of the fray." (The Hobbit: chapter 18)

"Yule-tide was warm and merry there; and men came from far and wide to feast at Beorn's bidding." (The Hobbit: The Return Journey)

Having people come for a warm, merry time from far and wide to feast with him !

Now I know that's just Beorn, but he is very involved with all those peoples. Beorn most certainly took part in the battles of his time. He comes to the aid of others, and even shows special affection for Thorin, carrying him wounded out of battle.

As for the Beornings, we are told that most of them were similar to Beorn in heart, and there is no mention anywhere that they are secluded. On the contrary, they live at an important crossroads, and have dealings with all the peoples around it seems.

"lndeed,' said Gloin, `if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible." (The Fellowship of The Ring: Many Meetings)

This info is being passed along by a dwarf. Gloin goes on to call them valiant, says they keep open the High Pass, and the Ford of Carrock. Though not over fond of dwarves, still he says "they are trusty, and that is much in these days."

Also remember Gimli mentions "the honey-cakes of the Beornings", gives them great praise, and says ""the Beornings are the best bakers that I know of". (The Fellowship of The Ring: Ch.8)

This isn't a war effort type thing, but it clearly shows that the Beornings are interacting with these other peoples.

"Beorn indeed became a great chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood; and it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength. In their day the last goblins were hunted from the Misty Mountains and a new peace came over the edge of the Wild." (The Hobbit: Ch.18 The Return Journey)

In this quote, first of all, note again: the land Beorn rules is between the mountain and the wood, as was previously mentioned and acknowledged. This means they are scouring the land of orcs a fair ways to both the east and west of their own lands.

And as discussed previously, Thranduil's gift of lands to the Beornings is seemingly in gratitude for their aid in repelling Sauron's march on Mirkwood.

""And on the day of the New Year of the Elves. Celeborn and Thranduil met in the midst of the forest; and they renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen, The Wood of Greenleaves. Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lórien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen." (The Return of The King; Appendix B)

The Beornings also gave aid to Aragorn as he made his way taking Gollum to King Thranduil: "...avoiding Moria and Dimril Dale, over Gladden until he came near the Carrock. There he crossed Anduin again, with the help of the Beornings, and passed into the Forest." (Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring)

Also, we must recall that almost all the Free Peoples remain firmly within their own narrow regions. The Beornings are if anything more involved with other peoples than most. Do we ever hear of the Men of Dale fighting outside their lands in The War of The Ring? What about the Dwarves of the Iron Hills? Or the Elves of Mirkwood? Or the Elves of Lorien? Or the Elves of Rivendell? Or the Hobbits of the Shire? The only people that go in numbers to another land are the Men of Gondor and Rohan who both come to the aid of the other, but it's emphasized how there was great tension, neither trusting the other to come, or expecting it. And just because this aid is lent to a directly neighboring land doesn't diminish it, or mean we should dismiss it.

The Beornings are famous among the Dwarves for their honey-cakes. They give aid to Aragorn. They are clearly in conctact with Thranduil, since he gives the Beornings lands. The simplest understanding of that passage, (and the one I've seen shared in every other place I've seen this written about), is that the Beornings as well as the Woodmen allied with Thranduil and Celeborn in the Battle Under the Trees. They are responsible for keeping the passage open between Dale and Rivendell. Whatever their motivation or intention might have been for doing this is quite outside our scope, and not reasonable to draw conclusions from. It doesn't alter the fact that the Beornings keep this important pass open, which is significant to the war and is a critical passage for Thranduil's people, the Men of Dale, the Woodmen, and Dwarves. And of course the Beornings are repeatedly talked about as hunting down and wiping out orcs and wargs across wide lands.

Going to reiterate something I have stated before. Beornings are NOT a job classification. The title Beorning is a classification like Man of Dale, Rohan, Gondor, Bree. The only Beornings known to have the ability to Shape-shift are all direct decendents of Beorn himself. There are only 2 generations of his decendents in Middle-earth and it is quite possible that not all of them have inherited his abilities.

We are already not allowed to play as Dunadain, Noldorian or Sindarin Elves because they are supposedly low in numbers as well as too powerful to be allowed as players. Direct decendents of Beorn fall under this same catagory.

However, if Turbine did bring in the classification of Beorning, it would simply be an additional racial classification under the Race of Man. The Men of the Beornings are believed to be closely related to the Rohirrim seeing as how both groups come from the same region of the northern vale of Anduin.

hmm how about horses then? A Beorning riding a horse/goat? thats just sounds ... weird and lore breaking i guess

Arahad... though there's a lot to read, I think everything you said has been covered in this thread.

We know that Beornings are a sub-race of Man - that's in the OP. It has also been discussed in this thread in other posts how Beorning would only be available to the race of Man. Maybe it would be listed with the classes, but with (sub-race) written next to it. Or maybe the class would be skin-changer. There are various approaches and options. Either which way, we all know that Beornings were a race of Men.

Stating that there were 2 generation of them is just plain false.

There have been 77 years since the Battle of Five Armies to the War of The Ring. Beorn was around some time obviously before we met him in The Hobbit. We're looking at about 100 or more years (assuming Beorn was at the least 23 in The Hobbit.) This doesn't go at all into the possibilties with Beorn's parents and ancestors. But either way we have over a century, minimum.

Saying the Beornings are too powerful is again made up. Though Beorn would obviously be too powerful, Tolkien doesn't tell us how powerful the Beornings are. He does say they are "less in size and strength" than Beorn. (The Hobbit: Ch.18 The Return Journey)

It is at the discretion of Turbine's Developers to make the Beornings fit in well with the existing classes, and appropriately balanced; a task they are far more than capable of.

They would simply be normal or slightly tall Men in Man form, and in combat could (preferably without any flashiness) simply change form into normal looking bears, and take up the fight with tooth and claw, roaring and rending.

"...It was in forgotten years long ago the Eorl the Young brought them out of the North, and their kinship is rather with the Bardings of Dale, and with the Beornings of the Wood, among whom may still be seen many men tall and fair, as are the Riders of Rohan. At least they will not love the Orcs." (The Two Towers: The Riders of Rohan)

Originally Posted by dubsyubsy

Apparently, they got their friends to come play, because the subscriber base actually grew, as Aaron Campbell said in June of 2009. That would be after November 18, 2008, when Mines of Moria released. Aside from that, I found people saying that Turbine does not release hard numbers on their subscriber base, so unless Turbine is actually flat-out lying to the press about this, word is, numbers are up. Similar statements followed the shift to F2P.

"This game will never go F2P!"

"This game will never focus updates around PvMP nor will it make changes to classes based on PvMP!"

"We will not sell rep mounts on the LotRO Store!"

Turbine: Powered by our lies.

Originally Posted by AgamemnonV2

"This game will never go F2P!"

"This game will never focus updates around PvMP nor will it make changes to classes based on PvMP!"

"We will not sell rep mounts on the LotRO Store!"

Turbine: Powered by our lies.

love the partial out of context quotes...and the derogatory bit

I do like the idea of introducing a new class or two (I suspect they've already made that decision - whether yes or no - as it pertains to the next major release). Many of us get great enjoyment out of playing all the classes. A Beorning class (I prefer 'skin-changer' or 'skin-shaper', but that is trifle) would be a welcome addition. I'd prefer, though, not to see too many of these characters running around in their skin-changed form - perhaps there would be some penalty in leaving it toggled on all the time.

Worrying about proper proportion of classes within the game vs within the middle-earth books seems somewhat specious, as you'd also be adamant that mobs in the game are also mentioned in the book, and would be pulling your hair out at encountering strange creatures every few yards within the game vs every few days in the book. What did Frodo see by the time he'd arrived at Rivendell? Some neeker-breekers, a wight, an aggressive tree, Ringwraiths/Black Riders, some gnats/flies, solidified trolls. I may have missed a few things, but this is over the course of at least a month of travel. How many loremasters are in the book lore? How many rune-keepers? I'm having a hard time thinking that it would be any worse to have skin-changers. People who are critical of changes would soon forget about them just as they've forgotten about all the other differences of the game vs the books.

Originally Posted by Darej

love the partial out of context quotes...

Nothing is out of context. That's called paraphrasing.

1) When DDO went F2P, there was a huge thread started on the forums doom and glooming about whether LotRO would follow suit. Sapience's response was: "LotRO won't be going to F2P."

2) During the beginning stages of this game we had dev chats. Someone posed the question as to whether there would be additions to PvMP and would they make changes around PvMP. The dev response was that the game would never focus around PvMP and changes to classes would never be made around PvMP.

3) During F2P beta a lot of negative community response surrounded the selling of rep mounts on the store. Turbine eventually pulled them from the store, saying that they were listening to player feedback.

and the derogatory bit

I'd be cheering them on if they didn't have a very clear record of lying to their fans. The point is why would anyone believe anything they say now or then? A month before Flagship Studios went under, the publisher for Hellgate: London, EA, had their PR proclaim that there were "over one million subscribers to the game." Obviously that was a lie. I rarely believe what PR has to say about anything honestly.

Originally Posted by AgamemnonV2

Nothing is out of context. That's called paraphrasing.

1) When DDO went F2P, there was a huge thread started on the forums doom and glooming about whether LotRO would follow suit. Sapience's response was: "LotRO won't be going to F2P."

what was actually said was...we have no plans at this time to make lotro f2p.

2) During the beginning stages of this game we had dev chats. Someone posed the question as to whether there would be additions to PvMP and would they make changes around PvMP. The dev response was that the game would never focus around PvMP and changes to classes would never be made around PvMP.

ok..so what?
what in that is untrue?

3) During F2P beta a lot of negative community response surrounded the selling of rep mounts on the store. Turbine eventually pulled them from the store, saying that they were listening to player feedback.

and?
they do not sell rep mounts in the store.

I'd be cheering them on if they didn't have a very clear record of lying to their fans. The point is why would anyone believe anything they say now or then?

what clear record?

the ONLY person from Turbine who was ever misleading or untrue in his statements was Steefel....and he is no longer involved with lotro.

seems to me you didnt paraphrase anything...you took stuff out of context and made stuff up based on what you think is true not on anything factual in the real world.

now..if you had listed the promises made about moria....or about mirkwood....then you would have some credibility...but this list is all bunk.

Originally Posted by Darej

what was actually said was...we have no plans at this time to make lotro f2p.

When Turbine hired a MT manager, Sapience said "this posting is for an unannounced future project." That "unannounced project" somehow turned into a complete retrofitting of DDO and Lotro.

After DDO went F2P, Patience said "As for LOTRO going free-to-play, it's not happening."

'No current plans' was only said AFTER it was announced that Lotro was going the F2P route, and only in direct response to being called out on the "it's not happening" quote.

Originally Posted by Patience

Originally Posted by Ruhrval

Patience site:forums.lotro.com microtransactions 2009 -2010

..you find something quite interesting. An UNQUALIFIED/NO RESERVATIONS posting mid-2009 by Patience:
"As for LOTRO going free-to-play, it's not happening."

Of course I said that. If I hadn't lost my crystal ball somewhere, I wouldn't have been so decisive. At the time I said that, that's what I believed.