Thread: SICK of Captains DPS!

Okay, I am Seriously getting sick of a Captains ability to DPS. We're at the Absolute Bottom of the DPS Line, WHY? I'm a lvl 65 capt and my DPS is seriously something to cry about, Even with the DPS class traits Slotted, we don't put out much DPS. We can add soooo much Group DPS, but we can't add any Self DPS. I think that Turbine should make a Buff for Captains that is sort of like War-speech, or something like that.

People say that: "we're good at Everything but Not Great at anything." Which is Fine with me, But If we're like a Jack of all Trades, then why are we at the BOTTOM of the DPS line?

Originally Posted by Guitarist1616

Okay, I am Seriously getting sick of a Captains ability to DPS. We're at the Absolute Bottom of the DPS Line, WHY? I'm a lvl 65 capt and my DPS is seriously something to cry about, Even with the DPS class traits Slotted, we don't put out much DPS. We can add soooo much Group DPS, but we can't add any Self DPS. I think that Turbine should make a Buff for Captains that is sort of like War-speech, or something like that.

People say that: "we're good at Everything but Not Great at anything." Which is Fine with me, But If we're like a Jack of all Trades, then why are we at the BOTTOM of the DPS line?

Whoever came up with this concept (I've seen similar ones in the past) "we're good at everything but not great at anything" probably plays a Minstrel and RK whom are Great at almost everything and not great at a couple of things.

RKs and Minstrels actually have similar buffs to captains that are way more effective at keeping your group alive, and have better healing and better dps when they choose to focus on either of them.

Our DPS is at the bottom? I'm only lvl 32 right now, but I've found my Captain is leveling faster than both my Guardian and my LM did. Is it really that bad?

Originally Posted by Guitarist1616

I'm a lvl 65 capt and my DPS is seriously something to cry about, Even with the DPS class traits Slotted, we don't put out much DPS. We can add soooo much Group DPS, but we can't add any Self DPS.

Imo, Captain is bottom tier DPS (hey, if there is a "top tier" for RK's per the recent dev diary, then there must be a bottom tier, right?) for same reason Burg is. Because they can add so much to group DPS. The devs could buff damage up more for traiting deep in Lead the Charge and balance that by making Telling Mark nearly useless in LTC (you're taking an agressive stance, no time for pointing out weaknesses.)

How would you guys rate all the classes in DPS from best to worst?

Something like this:

1) RK (best)
2) ?
3) ?
4) ?
5) ?
6) ?
7) ?
8) ?
9) Captain (worst)

Captain's are really at the bottom? Surely there is another class lower than us...or no?

I was actually thinking last night that my cappy dps was rolling quite nice. I had the Oathbreaker out and i was going through the Volume 3 Bk 2 quests especially in the underground ruin in eregion. I was downing the mobs pretty damn quickly.
I am totally specced in the red line with the legendary trait for shadows lament and that often crits for 1200 odd and if you hit a crit on Devastating blow as well say bye bye mob... I also have a 2nd age Halberd.

I was definitly downing mobs faster than my 65 burg.

But if you were going to order the dps?
Something like

1.Hunter
2.RK
3.Champ (these 3 are all debateable champ could be top etc)
4.Warden
5. Mini (warspeech)
6. LM
7. Guard (overpower)
8. Burg (in position)
9. Cappy (Last three could be changed around too)

Its very hard to rate DPS because of situation my burg would crank out more in a group sitting behind a mob etc.
But my experience with my cappy is it's not to bad.

Originally Posted by Glimlioin

I was actually thinking last night that my cappy dps was rolling quite nice. I had the Oathbreaker out and i was going through the Volume 3 Bk 2 quests especially in the underground ruin in eregion. I was downing the mobs pretty damn quickly.
I am totally specced in the red line with the legendary trait for shadows lament and that often crits for 1200 odd and if you hit a crit on Devastating blow as well say bye bye mob... I also have a 2nd age Halberd.

I was definitly downing mobs faster than my 65 burg.

But if you were going to order the dps?
Something like

1.Hunter
2.RK
3.Champ (these 3 are all debateable champ could be top etc)
4.Warden
5. Mini (warspeech)
6. LM
7. Guard (overpower)
8. Burg (in position)
9. Cappy (Last three could be changed around too)

Its very hard to rate DPS because of situation my burg would crank out more in a group sitting behind a mob etc.
But my experience with my cappy is it's not to bad.

This looks about how it should be. Damage/nuke/AOE classes on top, with support/survivable builds on the bottom. I think the key is to not play the top dps builds. I think my Captain kills pretty fast, and is survivable, even at measely level 32. I can take on, and kill, +5 mobs, tank some instances, and solo just fine. I don't feel like I'm moving slow as hell while soloing. But I have never played a DPS class in this game.


I think it's a perception thing. If you hate playing the class, you're going to think everything about the class stinks.

/sigh

Even after a significant boost to our solo dps with the last update we are having these cry-fests? Hohum.

Yea people will cry regardless of whether something is wrong. As the foremost person who tried and tried and finally succeeded in getting them to revamp the 2 lines I have to say that at current there is nothing wrong with captains dps. We are currently at a very good place in the world dps/buffing/healing wise. I think all three lines have now maintained equality. Meaning they are all now very good at what there designed to do and more purpose driven. If you understand what the Red dps line is you would never say it's dps is low, you would say I am having back luck with my critical hits or that my gear is lacking.

Since captain can never have his heals stripped from him nor his buffs we can never be champion lvl single target dps and I am sorry if that is what the Op wants. Because it will never get here along with the magical wings captains are supposed to have in valhalla those will never get here either =).

Your request to remove the captain from the bottom of the DPS pools is quite simply a request to move someone else there in your place. Increasing the captain DPS would more than remove any semblance of balance across the classes. What would you trade to move up the DPS ladder? Would you give your healing to the hunter so that your DPS can improve and then hunters are the ones asked to come and off-heal instances? Would you give up buffs to the Lore Masters so that they are finally sought after again and then you can fight it out with 4 other DPS classes for the one spot in groups? IMHO, Captains are third on the nerf list already, but I wouldn't be surprised if they cut in line in a future update.

I've have a Minstrel, a Wrd, a Hunter, and a Burg. My Captains DPS is still rather low on the DPS line when traited for DPS compared to my other classes when their traited for DPS. Why Can't we get a buff that is compared to a Minstrels War speech? Captains are Supposed to be a Jack of All trades right? In 3 Man instances I've had situations where It was Capt/wrd/min, Grd/Capt/Min fAnd for a More Effective group the Class that is supposed to be a Main Healer or a Main Guard, Switches to DPS and does better DPS then my Capt!

My Captain is my Main, and I love him but All I'm really asking is for a Captain to get a Buff that would add to his own DPS and that would affect his Healing Like the Minstrels War Speech.

Originally Posted by Guitarist1616

I've have a Minstrel, a Wrd, a Hunter, and a Burg. My Captains DPS is still lower on the DPS line when traited for DPS compared to my other classes when their traited for DPS. Why Can't we get a buff that is compared to a Minstrels War speech? Captains are Supposed to be a Jack of All trades right? In 3 Man instances I've had situations where It was Capt/wrd/min, Grd/Capt/Min fAnd for a More Effective group the Class that is supposed to be a Main Healer or a Main Guard, Switches to DPS and does better DPS then my Capt!

My Captain is my Main, and I love him but I"m seriously getting a little sick and tired of this....

In every MMO there is a trade off between survivability and damage. Either you are highly survivable, or you do a lot of damage, or you fall somewhere in between. Ministrels can only wear medium armor with a trait, aren't nearly as survivable as, nor have have the melee skills of a Captain. So I think it's a fair trade. Mini's are either healers or nukers, where Captains are either buffers/healers or tanks.

I think they're balanced as they are. You might want to play a strictly damage based toon, because it sounds like it's more what you're looking for.

Plus, there are some unspoken benefits of being low on the totem pole. For one, you don't have a giant nerf target on your back. And secondly, it limits the number of people playing the class. If Captains could do damage on par with a champ, survive like a tank, heal, and buff, why would anyone play anything else?

Originally Posted by HumphreyMilkweed

In every MMO there is a trade off between survivability and damage. Either you are highly survivable, or you do a lot of damage, or you fall somewhere in between. Ministrels can only wear medium armor with a trait, aren't nearly as survivable as, nor have have the melee skills of a Captain. So I think it's a fair trade. Mini's are either healers or nukers, where Captains are either buffers/healers or tanks.
...

Minstrels less survivable?

They have a bubble that cuts damage into half and transfers it to power. Lots of them have more than 5k power pools which can be translated into an extra 10k morale to the morale they already have.

They have faint death (they won't die for 30 seconds)

They have a instant big heal in case of emergency they usually use after fainting death

And I'm pretty sure Minstrels don't need to trait for medium armor to have access to those skills.

What do captains have to survive? Last Stand every 15 minutes for 25 seconds.

Can't really count make-haste when it gets cancelled with any slows applied to you.

Minstrels have a lot more survivability than captains, especially when they can throw 2k heals on themselves and better CC.

Originally Posted by Forza24

Minstrels less survivable?

They have a bubble that cuts damage into half and transfers it to power. Lots of them have more than 5k power pools which can be translated into an extra 10k morale to the morale they already have.

They have faint death (they won't die for 30 seconds)

They have a instant big heal in case of emergency they usually use after fainting death

And I'm pretty sure Minstrels don't need to trait for medium armor to have access to those skills.

What do captains have to survive? Last Stand every 15 minutes for 25 seconds.

Can't really count make-haste when it gets cancelled with any slows applied to you.

Minstrels have a lot more survivability than captains, especially when they can throw 2k heals on themselves and better CC.

So a ministrel could out tank a Captain? I'm just going off of what I've been told from experienced lvl 65 Captains on these boards. You're comments are different from everything I've heard. If this is true, then I'm confused.

Do other experienced folks share this opinion?

To the OP: have you checked your stats and gear? You should try to raise your might and melee crit. We can get up to 20% melee crit chance now.

By the way,

Originally Posted by Guitarist1616

We can add soooo much Group DPS, but we can't add any Self DPS.

Captains are primarily a support class. And have you ever tried buffing yourself with a war banner + relentless attack?

Originally Posted by Forza24

And I'm pretty sure Minstrels don't need to trait for medium armor to have access to those skills.

Minstrels have to trait for medium armor, and its a red (DPS) trait.

Originally Posted by Forza24

What do captains have to survive?

Heavy armor. Pets. Buffs. Debuffs. Heals.

Yes, I've been buffing myself w/ War banner and Relentless, Putting a 10% Telling mark on Every mob that I see and its still rather slow...

All I"m really saying is that it would be nice to get something that is just LIKE a Minstrels War speech. It would make us able to DPS a Little Better, Or at least be on par with a Minstrel with War speech, BUT it would cut down on our Healing skill, Or Something.


P.S, I'm not the type of person that likes to play an all out Damage class, Because I like the flexibility that a Captain has, But when it comes to 3 mans and such, I want to be a class that has the Ability to DPS if needed to instead of replacing a Class specifically a "Tank' Or a Class that is specific for "Healing" You know what I mean?

One of the great things about three mans - and indeed captains - is that they often demand thinking out of the box. I have done three mans with two minstrels and had them dps while I both tanked and healed. Worked great... I fed them power through Now for Wrath and we burned stuff down quick. I prefer to main heal most three mans because, frankly, a minstrel or RK healing is overkill: they are better of dpsing.

The bottom line is this: I can dps fine for solo and burn through the content at what seems to be a comfortable pace. That said, in groups, my best dps contribution is by contributing to the groups total output, not by creating big numbers for myself.

Want to up your dps? Go five red, 2 blue with loyalty and precise ally and the archer: you are now on par with an average (though not uber) overpower guard, which ain't bad. You don't have the burst of a mini, but you can sustain for a lot longer.

Our DPS may not be top tier but we are not that weak when it comes to all our abilities.
With all our abilities combined we are one of the greatest classes to play in solo and group. So what if we take a little longer to kill something. My captain has been able to take on 6 mobs of the same level with ease, Kill elites that are level 66 with no sweat and the speed of kills is not that bad. Most of the time I am at full health at the end of the fights listed above.
As far as speed I did a comparison with a friend that has a warden and I killed an Elite Giant with 22,000+ morale in Enedwaith faster than he did with his warden (I had most of my health at the end (4000 out of 5800) and he had about 2500 morale). He has level 65 second age weapons, full radiance armor and is a great warden but he doesn't kill faster than my Captain (At least on elites). So I think we are not always the lowest.
In addition, my friend who is a mini runs out of power way before I do when he is in War Speech so I can out last him in fights when he is traited that way.

Originally Posted by Forza24

Whoever came up with this concept (I've seen similar ones in the past) "we're good at everything but not great at anything" probably plays a Minstrel and RK whom are Great at almost everything and not great at a couple of things.

RKs and Minstrels actually have similar buffs to captains that are way more effective at keeping your group alive, and have better healing and better dps when they choose to focus on either of them.

now, lets watch those same minstrels and RKs tank.

There is absolutely no argument in the statement that capts are at THE bottom of the list when it comes to dps.

ALL the SUPPORT classes has a role that they can SACRIFICE to increase DPS: mini has Warspeech, LM has their red line, tank has OP.

However, capt is the only support class that didn't get toggle/trait or any line that can sacrifice our shield brother skills for dps increase. There is definetly something needed like WS or OP stance that we can use to at least close the gap on the scale for DPS in a way that its not so lucid.

Btw tank in OP stance dishes out LOT more dps than most of u guys think, even in moors they're probably one of the top three classes out there that destroy creeps.

Captains have plenty of DPS to handle any solo content in the game. Captains in a group have more than enough DPS when you look at all the amazing things they can do to the rest of the group while putting out that DPS. Is it low personal damage output compared to other classes? Yes. It has to be though when you look at what you can do while still putting out that damage.

You can main heal non-raid content with your Captain in HoH, and you'll be doing far more damage along the way than a Minstrel or RK would as main healer. You can do that same weak damage while buffing the entire group's output with LoM, and still a respectable healer on top of it. The main healer will be snoozing anywhere but a boss fight if you're on top of your game in LoM. You can trait for DPS with LtC and still throw a Rallying Cry every 6 seconds while doing that improved (but still not OMG!) DPS. Along the way you're buffing everyone with IDOME, Motivating Speech, a Tactics buff, and a Banner/Herald no matter how you trait. You're the best in-combat rez resource no matter how you trait. You've got IHW/Last Stand available to save the day no matter how unhappy you are with your DPS.

TL;DR? If you want huge DPS play a class that isn't as completely awesome in other facets of the game. Complaining about low DPS without looking at the huge upsides everywhere else is silly.

Originally Posted by witchking782

There is absolutely no argument in the statement that capts are at THE bottom of the list when it comes to dps.

ALL the SUPPORT classes has a role that they can SACRIFICE to increase DPS: mini has Warspeech, LM has their red line, tank has OP.

However, capt is the only support class that didn't get toggle/trait or any line that can sacrifice our shield brother skills for dps increase. There is definetly something needed like WS or OP stance that we can use to at least close the gap on the scale for DPS in a way that its not so lucid.

Btw tank in OP stance dishes out LOT more dps than most of u guys think, even in moors they're probably one of the top three classes out there that destroy creeps.

Ah, well, the Moors changes things a bit and doesn't really reflect the PvE game.

Red line with crits and archer is pretty solid dps and again, on par, with a MEDIOCRE OP guard. Most guards who do serious time in the Moors are not mediocre.

The problem with the redline is that it crit based and that is not the way to go for the Moors. At least I don't use it out there. We are still bottom of the barrel for Moors solo, I agree. On the other hand, Moors grouping with either HoH or LoM is silly awesome, which makes up for it a bit.

I'm currently leveling a captain (she's at 32) and I'd agree that the killing can be slow. I'm used to playing light-armor, tactical classes - my 4 65s include LM, Minstrel and RK - but so far, the tradeoff in survivability more than makes up for the lower damage. For instance, on my Minstrel or RK, if I get more than two mobs on a pull I pretty much have to run, even lower-level mobs. On my Captain, I can take on 3-4 mobs easily.

But I don't know how that compares to the Captain at end-game.

Originally Posted by Guitarist1616

Okay, I am Seriously getting sick of a Captains ability to DPS. We're at the Absolute Bottom of the DPS Line, WHY? I'm a lvl 65 capt and my DPS is seriously something to cry about, Even with the DPS class traits Slotted, we don't put out much DPS. We can add soooo much Group DPS, but we can't add any Self DPS. I think that Turbine should make a Buff for Captains that is sort of like War-speech, or something like that.

People say that: "we're good at Everything but Not Great at anything." Which is Fine with me, But If we're like a Jack of all Trades, then why are we at the BOTTOM of the DPS line?

From a gameplay point of view, the issue lies in balance. All the classes in lotro has more then 1 role in lotro. They all sacrifice something to get the edge in the other thing. The catch with the cappie is, no matter which "path" you follow you don't sacrifice anything. You only get a stronger edge in the area you decide to focus on.

Originally Posted by seyahat

One of the great things about three mans - and indeed captains - is that they often demand thinking out of the box.

Putted in evidence the important part

Originally Posted by SapienChavez

now, lets watch those same minstrels and RKs tank.

My minstrel can tank, I got a shield so that mean I'm a tank.
I don't have a RK (or at least a decent RK), though i learned the rock could tank for me, so let it tank.

Originally Posted by witchking782

There is absolutely no argument in the statement that capts are at THE bottom of the list when it comes to dps.

Since 2007, I never saw a good parse to compare a classe to another. We know that Hunter and champ does more damage and captain, burgle does less but no real data..

Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken

Captains have plenty of DPS to handle any solo content in the game. Captains in a group have more than enough DPS when you look at all the amazing things they can do to the rest of the group while putting out that DPS. Is it low personal damage output compared to other classes? Yes. It has to be though when you look at what you can do while still putting out that damage.

You can main heal non-raid content with your Captain in HoH, and you'll be doing far more damage along the way than a Minstrel or RK would as main healer. You can do that same weak damage while buffing the entire group's output with LoM, and still a respectable healer on top of it. The main healer will be snoozing anywhere but a boss fight if you're on top of your game in LoM. You can trait for DPS with LtC and still throw a Rallying Cry every 6 seconds while doing that improved (but still not OMG!) DPS. Along the way you're buffing everyone with IDOME, Motivating Speech, a Tactics buff, and a Banner/Herald no matter how you trait. You're the best in-combat rez resource no matter how you trait. You've got IHW/Last Stand available to save the day no matter how unhappy you are with your DPS.

TL;DR? If you want huge DPS play a class that isn't as completely awesome in other facets of the game. Complaining about low DPS without looking at the huge upsides everywhere else is silly.

Like I like to think we cannot really compare classes to one to another cause they are all different..

Originally Posted by Glimlioin

Something like

1.Hunter
2.RK
3.Champ (these 3 are all debateable champ could be top etc)
4.Warden
5. Mini (warspeech)
6. LM
7. Guard (overpower)
8. Burg (in position)
9. Cappy (Last three could be changed around too)

Warden fourth? Is that everyone else's experience as well? How? Burst dps or sustained? There's no way a WDN out-dpses a LM, and I'd be surprised if it outdid a mini. Not picking on wardens, but wondering if there's something obvious I'm missing.

im sick of complaints on cpn dps.


if a player doesnt "get it" by now, then they never will.


you dont see thread on the guardian forum complaing about teir lack of healing ability. or mistrels complaining about their lack of tanking ablity.

and you only hear capn dps compared to other classes' ideal situations. no one compares cpn dmg to a minstrels or RKs when they are healing. i put out more dmg, while main healing, than any minstrel or RK i have ever seen main healing.

i can do more dmg, tanking, than most Guards I have seen in thier tanking setups.

i can heal more than most, while main tanking.


you can not look at them exclusivly.

i swear, WoW has ruined players' mind-sets with their "holy trinity of tank/dps/heals." as much as i enjoy WoW, the residuals are killing me! they have no support class and i see that as a major reason most players can not wrap their heads around the intangible awesomeness of support classes.

the key word in all this: intangible.

I tend to agree with Sapien on this one, albiet at a lower volume. I don't understand why someone would insist a class which was clearly designed to be highly benefitial to teams due to the flexibility of the class, and NOT due to DPS, have very high DPS options available to them.

Captains are highly survivable, in multiple situations, against solo elites, or multiple trash mobs, or in pvp. They have mediocre to low damage in most situations, but can heal, buff, rez, tank, and have a damage pet if desired. I don't want an "either or class" like the RK or ministrel where I have to decide which I want to be on a team. I far prefer the flexibility and survivability of the Captain.

It just sounds like you're playing the wrong class, OP. Or you just need a break from your Cap for a while. I felt exactly the same way about my LM, then I just realized it wasn't the class for me. I stopped beating my head against the wall and rolled as something more my style.

*thinks the OP should reroll a Hunter and see how he likes medium armor and no heals and no Pet*

Ah, Sap, I do enjoy it when you get going

One more thing I'll add... Just like LM pets counts towards their DPS... Captain heralds do damage too. And that actually is part of your DPS. If you are soloing with banners and not heralds... more power to you, but you negate a moderate amount of DPS that gets ADDED to what you see your captain doing. If you are in a group setting and not using a herald... then you weren't ask to come along for your DPS

Originally Posted by orccrusher

Warden fourth? Is that everyone else's experience as well? How? Burst dps or sustained? There's no way a WDN out-dpses a LM, and I'd be surprised if it outdid a mini. Not picking on wardens, but wondering if there's something obvious I'm missing.

Yeah, I don't have a capped warden, but I do play in groups with ppl who have much experience in each class capped... and I think warden dps is overstated here too.

A wardens survivability is awesome if u have the experience, but dps, no.

A geared LM in redline will consistenly out-dps all but THE top-3 dps classes, including warden, in my experience, except a tweaked mini. I won't let our mini's dps too long, before complaining about dying while i faceroll buttons (oops, hehe..it just seems wrong for them to not heal, lol.)

Hmmm... I don't know about Captain dps. I team up with a captain often as my guardian, so we're often side to side in battle and seems to me the cappy does notably more damage than me. That said, it's a guardian that leans a lot, lot more towards the tanking side of things and doesn't have fancy dps at all. But still... OP, aren't you just frustrated when you see a hunter or something kill a mob in 5 seconds that you take 20 to kill? Frustration, perceptions... all those things come into play. To me Captains seem to be pretty good at what they do... in general. Even dps.

Its not the frustration of seeing a DPS class such as (hnt, champ, RK) that can take out a mob in 5 secs. Its the frustration of seeing SUPPORT classes that can take out mobs in 10 secs.

The problem isn't about SURVIVING or GROUP dps, everyone knows that capt can rock those two areas without a problem. The problem is that we're not given any stances that sacrifices couple of roles to increase DPS. Out of all the support classes, capt is still left out.


Put it this way: if you were given warspeech stance or OP stance that put a penalty on either your heals or shield-brother skills so you can increase your DPS, wouldn't you use that stance while your soloing?

I think that the real problem here is not the lack of DPS by the Captain. It is the expectation of the OP to have class flexibility. WoW has given people several classes that can fill multiple roles. If we look at the paladin, for example, he has the flexibility to be main tank, main healer, top dps, if properly geared and specced for those roles. I could give other examples, but we are not here to discuss WoW classes all day.

This expectation to have class flexibility is what most people have when they come to this game (I know I did). The fact is, this game does not work that way. The only class that has legitimate class flexibility is the Rune keeper. You can truly be a top DPS or top heals.

What I think that most people don't realize (I didn't at first) that there actually four types of group roles to be filled by players. Dps, heal, tank and utility. Captains, Burglars and Lormasters fall into the utility role.

So, with this in mind, if you are going to compare the dps of a Captain, you need to compare them against other classes in the utility role.

I think that it would be safe to say that a Captain's dps is comparable to the Burglar's, but not as high as the Loremaster's.

So, in the end, I think that the Captain is where he is supposed to be in the framework of the game.

I agree with Wardens at fourth. My warden is 64. The reason they seem low is that few wardens run DPS traited while tanking, because then they would have only slightly higher survivability then that of a champ. When DPS traited, warden's bleeds burn down mobs really fast. Not to mention our burst dps of javelins.

As to the original topic, Cappys dps really isn't that bad when traited for dps and you have an archer. A toggle skill would be nice, for sure, but nowhere near necessary for the class.

Originally Posted by Varenthor

I agree with Wardens at fourth. My warden is 64. The reason they seem low is that few wardens run DPS traited while tanking, because then they would have only slightly higher survivability then that of a champ. When DPS traited, warden's bleeds burn down mobs really fast. Not to mention our burst dps of javelins.

Not being dismissive, but I think this is probably perception. Seems to me you can break down the classes into high dps, moderate dps, and low dps:

High: RK, Hunter, Champ (in some order)
Moderate: LM, Burg, Mini (in some order)
Low: Warden, Guard, Cappy (in some order)

I don't think anybody argues with the High category. Moderate and Low is more fluid because each of those classes, while they have a dps line, is not necessarily expected to fill a dps role in a group. Minis are expected to heal, wardens and guards are expected to tank.

The utility classes are the oddballs. Burg dps used to be a contender, but it's since been relegated to the middle of the pack. We've gotten used to seeing LMs pumping out dps mostly because there's so little call for cc in end-game content. Even after the recent trait line updates, cappies are still the ones lagging. Rightly so, since we can heal and wear heavy armor (not to mention rez and buff). Adding respectable dps to all that survivability and utility would be un-balancing.

Originally Posted by Varenthor

As to the original topic, Cappys dps really isn't that bad when traited for dps and you have an archer. A toggle skill would be nice, for sure, but nowhere near necessary for the class.

Agreed. Pursuant to my thoughts above, the dps isn't bad when traited for it. But how often are you traiting dps and using an archer in instances or raids? Buffs, off-heals, and off-tanking are much more the mainstays of the class than dps will ever be, and it's a trade we'll pretty much have to live with.

I just thought of an interesting test...

I think I'll call it "Kill Me!": Basically, I'll hop on my warden and spar to see who can kill me the fastest. I'll stand in one spot and do nothing, while timing from the start of the spar to the end. That should give some indication of where all the classes' DPS are relative to each other. Maybe I'll even offer a reward to whoever comes out on top.

Originally Posted by Rainyman

I just thought of an interesting test...

I think I'll call it "Kill Me!": Basically, I'll hop on my warden and spar to see who can kill me the fastest. I'll stand in one spot and do nothing, while timing from the start of the spar to the end. That should give some indication of where all the classes' DPS are relative to each other. Maybe I'll even offer a reward to whoever comes out on top.

Or maybe we could look at Marauder parses like everybody else.

Originally Posted by orccrusher

Not being dismissive, but I think this is probably perception. Seems to me you can break down the classes into high dps, moderate dps, and low dps:

High: RK, Hunter, Champ (in some order)
Moderate: LM, Burg, Mini (in some order)
Low: Warden, Guard, Cappy (in some order)

I don't think anybody argues with the High category. Moderate and Low is more fluid because each of those classes, while they have a dps line, is not necessarily expected to fill a dps role in a group. Minis are expected to heal, wardens and guards are expected to tank.

The utility classes are the oddballs. Burg dps used to be a contender, but it's since been relegated to the middle of the pack. We've gotten used to seeing LMs pumping out dps mostly because there's so little call for cc in end-game content. Even after the recent trait line updates, cappies are still the ones lagging. Rightly so, since we can heal and wear heavy armor (not to mention rez and buff). Adding respectable dps to all that survivability and utility would be un-balancing.

I don't understand people saying Captains shouldn't do decent DPS because they are a utility class. Well, what about minstrels? What about RK? What about Wardens? They all heal, buff, and/or tank yet are entitled to significantly higher damage? RK especially...that class is completely broken if they are best at DPS and tied for best at healing. What's odd is you guys saying that's ok and how it should be.

Yes it's true that some class has to be bottom of the barrel. I just wonder why it has to be Captain when all the other utility, heal, and tank classes do more, sometimes far more, damage. It's not like Captain utility is vastly better especially with the marginalization of IDOME with the stat caps and non-scaling.

Originally Posted by Aefa

I don't understand people saying Captains shouldn't do decent DPS because they are a utility class. Well, what about minstrels? What about RK? What about Wardens? They all heal, buff, and/or tank yet are entitled to significantly higher damage? RK especially...that class is completely broken if they are best at DPS and tied for best at healing. What's odd is you guys saying that's ok and how it should be.

Yes it's true that some class has to be bottom of the barrel. I just wonder why it has to be Captain when all the other utility, heal, and tank classes do more, sometimes far more, damage. It's not like Captain utility is vastly better especially with the marginalization of IDOME with the stat caps and non-scaling.

When a Wdn tanks he doesn't do much DPS. When a RNK heals, he doesn't do much DPS. When a Cpt Buffs he still does some DPS. See the difference?