Thread: Why hadn't the dwarfs and elves, help fight at the Pelennor Fields, Black gate?

So why didn't the dwarfs and elves gather with the men? I haven't read the books yet and I don't think it explained it in the movies.

Both had an army of one I guess. Legolas and Gimli.

I don't want to spoil anything but there's more going on with the War of the Ring than what is covered in the main narrative. You should read the books. They're really good.

If you don't want to read the books you should discover The Encyclopedia of Arda or one of the other neat-o Tolkien sites out there.

Basically, they had their own battles to fight. I think there's some subtle hints at that in the movie, where Gimli says something like "I wish I had some dwarves here in this battle", to which Legolas replies "I'm sure they will see war soon enough, as will my folk" (something like that, I don't remember it word for word unfortunately, and when they say it).

The dwarves of Erebor (along with the men of Dale) were besieged by Easterlings to the north. Only after the ring was destroyed and news reached them up there, did the dwarves and men lift the siege and win the battle.

Similarly, the elves of Mirkwood and Lórien came under attack by forces from Dol Guldur (maybe you've seen Dol Guldur in-game?), and were, like the dwarves, caught in their own battle.

In fact, had Sauron's forces not been occupied with the dwarves, elves, and men up in the north, those forces would likely have been more than enough to wipe out the Free Peoples fighting down in Gondor and Rohan.

Alright thank you! I'm reading the Fellowship of the Ring at the moment. The writing is unbelievable brilliant!

I'm half way through the Return of the King as we speak, fresh off reading the first 2 of the trilogy and the Hobbit as well.

I haven't really read anything about the elves/dwarves and what was going on in their homelands yet, at least not that I remember. However you also have to remember there's like 2 or 3 more books about Middle Earth written by Tolkien and/or his son or at least compiled/edited by his son.

However I believe from reading on websites and such in the past that the above post was correct. I think pretty much all the races except maybe the hobbits were actually involved in open warfare with some sect of Saurons followers.

Gimli and Legolas just got caught up in the "main storyline" because they were ambassadors sent to Rivendell and thus they were part of the fellowship. I believe their homelands were very much at war as was Gondor but Gondor also sent Boromir their captain to Rivendell. (so he was like the human version of Legolas and Gimlie).

I really wish Tolkien could have been a Dunedain, that way he could have had time to write another 20 books or so about all the other things going on in middle earth. I would love to read a story he wrote about the conquests of the other dwarves/elves and free peoples of middle earth in that time period.

Originally Posted by criosdaidh22

I'm half way through the Return of the King as we speak, fresh off reading the first 2 of the trilogy and the Hobbit as well.

I haven't really read anything about the elves/dwarves and what was going on in their homelands yet, at least not that I remember.

Tolkien doesn't focus hard on it during the LOTR, but toward the end of the Fellowship of the Ring when Frodo is on the seat at Amon Hen he gazes at the various lands. After the first look he is aware of a great deal of activity. Men from the East and South on the march, and the dust of battle under the eaves of Mirkwood (near Dol Guldur and in the north near the Caves of Thranduil) and Lorien. The Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain are under siege.

Legolas, during his discussion with Gimli as previously mentioned, first gazes into the distance before he replies. How much he sees or hears he keeps to himself, but his words are true ... The elves and dwarves have battle enough in their own lands.

Just wanted to add a bit more texture to the excellent responses above:

During this period Middle-earth was rather sparsely populated, especially with respect to the non-human races. There just don't seem to have been any major civilizations of elves and dwarves left in that part of the world.

For the dwarves the only major realms were at Erebor (the Lonely Mountain) and the Iron Hills. There were also dwarves living in the Ered Luin, although the size of these during the period of the War of the Ring aren't very clear. Khazad Dum (Moria) had long since fallen and wasn't recolonized until after the War of the Ring (notwithstanding Turbine's treatment in LOTRO). Also keep in mind that the dwarven population of Erebor was exactly zero in 2941 when Smaug was slain. The battles of the Pelennor Fields and the Black Gate took place in 3019, which is 78 years later. The dwarves that repopulated Erebor were presumably emigrants from the Iron Hills and the Ered Luin settlements, so that would have essentially been a zero sum game in terms of overall population (although perhaps there would have been a mini "baby boom" in the happy aftermath of the restoration of Erebor).

For the elves, you had only Lothlorien, Northern Mirkwood and Lindon/Grey Havens in terms of major population centers. If you look at the maps, you will see that geographically Lorien and Thranduils realm in Mirkwood were pretty small compared to Gondor, and I just never got the sense that any of them had a particularly large population at the time of the War of the Ring. Lindon/Grey Havens had actually been a very significant realm at the end of the Second Age (when Sauron was defeated by the Last Alliance), but afterwards a great many of its inhabitants appear to have sailed into the West. There was also Rivendell of course, but there is a reason why it was sometimes called "the Last Homely House." It was really more of a refuge in a hidden valley than a kingdom or even a city-state, and I would be very surprised if the total population of Elrond's folk was more than 1,000 (and probably considerably less than that).

Geography also plays a very large part in this question. Lothlorien was approximately 500 miles from Minas Tirith. Erebor and the Iron Hills were probably around 600-750 miles away. Lindon and the Ered Luin settlements were well over 1,000 miles from Minas Tirith, and troops coming from that direction would have had to take an even longer path down the coast and come through western Gondor because Saruman controlled the Gap of Rohan (although I suppose in a perfect world we might assume a scenario in which they managed to attack Saruman from the west in support of the Rohirrim).

Thus, it would have been a huge undertaking fraught with logistical difficulties for any of the extant dwarven and elven realms (save perhaps Lothlorien) to send more than a token force to the aid of Gondor in the battles of the Pellenor Fields and the Black Gate, and in any event the troops simply weren't available. The elven and dwarven realms were greatly diminished by the time of the War of the Ring, and what armies Galadriel (Lothlorien), Thranduil (Mirkwood) and Dain (Erebor) could field were tied up defending their own lands from Sauron's other armies that attacked them at the same time the armies of Gondor and Rohan were battling for survival down south.

IIRC, there was a dwarf and three elves present.

Surely you're not suggesting more were needed?

http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Middle-E...1164177&sr=8-1


This is an awesome book to find out all you need to know.Great read with tons of maps.

Some people speculate that Gandalf lead the Dwarves and Bilbo to the Lonely Mountain to kill Smaug and let the Dwarves retake the Lonely Mountain to open up another front for Sauron in the coming war, so his forces would be split.

Originally Posted by Baelog

Some people speculate that Gandalf lead the Dwarves and Bilbo to the Lonely Mountain to kill Smaug and let the Dwarves retake the Lonely Mountain to open up another front for Sauron in the coming war, so his forces would be split.

No need to speculate. From the Appendices in Return of the King:

But at last there came about by chance a meeting between Gandalf and Thorin that changed all the fortunes of the House of Durin, and led to other and greater ends beside. On a time Thorin, returning west from a journey, stayed at Bree for the night. There Gandalf was also. He was on his way to the Shire, which he had not visited for some twenty years. He was weary, and thought to rest there for a while.
Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be achieved?
It was even as Gandalf sat and pondered this that Thorin stood before him, and said: 'Master Gandalf, I know you only by sight, but now I should be glad to speak with you. For you have often come into my thoughts of late, as if I were bidden to seek you. Indeed I should have done so, if I had known where to find you.'
Gandalf looked at him with wonder. 'That is strange, Thorin Oakenshield,' he said. 'For I have thought of you also; and though I am on my way to the Shire, it was in my mind that is the way also to your halls.'
'Call them so, if you will,' said Thorin. 'They are only poor lodgings in exile. But you would be welcome there, if you would come. For they say that you are wise and know more than any other of what goes on in the world; and I have much on my mind and would be glad of your counsel.'
'I will come,' said Gandalf; 'for I guess that we share one trouble at least. The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór.'
The story is told elsewhere of what came of that meeting: of the strange plan that Gandalf made for the help of Thorin, and how Thorin and his companions set out from the Shire on the quest of the Lonely Mountain that came to great ends unforeseen. Here only those things are recalled that directly concern Durin's Folk.
The Dragon was slain by Bard of Esgaroth, but there was battle in Dale. For the Orcs came down upon Erebor as soon as they heard of the return of the Dwarves; and they were led by Bolg, son of that Azog whom Dáin slew in his youth. In that first Battle of Dale, Thorin Oakenshield was mortally wounded; and he died and was laid in a tomb under the Mountain with the Arkenstone upon his breast. There fell also Fíli and Kíli, his sister-sons. But Dáin Ironfoot, his cousin, who came from the Iron Hills to his aid and was also his rightful heir, became then King Dáin II, and the Kingdom under the Mountain was restored, even as Gandalf had desired. Dáin proved a great and wise king, and the Dwarves prospered and grew strong again in his day.
In the late summer of that same year (2941) Gandalf had at last prevailed upon Saruman and the White Council to attack Dol Guldur, and Sauron retreated and went to Mordor, there to be secure, as he thought, from all his enemies. So it was that when the War came at last the main assault was turned southwards; yet even so with his far-stretched right hand Sauron might have done great evil in the North, if King Dáin and King Brand had not stood in his path. Even as Gandalf said afterwards to Frodo and Gimli, when they dwelt together for a time in Minas Tirith. Not long before news had come to Gondor of events far away.
'I grieved at the fall of Thorin,' said Gandalf; 'and now we hear that Dáin has fallen, fighting in Dale again, even while we fought here. I should call that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say that he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell.
'Yet things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valour of Durin's Folk. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted - because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth.'

Originally Posted by thinkingbear

No need to speculate. From the Appendices in Return of the King:

Oh yeah. Basically Gandalf (perhaps with some assistance from Galadriel) was a master strategist. He was playing chess against Sauron for a hundred years before the War of the Ring started, and the people of Middle Earth were the chess pieces. Not only that but his gut instincts were almost as good at foretelling the future as Galadriel's mirror.

I love threads like these. I can't get enough of them.

It pretty cool that Gandalf did all these things to set in motion a large spread out war against Sauron. From setting up the dwarves in the north east to fight against sauron's easternling allies, the elves of lorien and mirkwood to fight against sauron's forces in dul guldor, and banding gondor and rohan together to fight against sauron's own forces and his southern allies, the haradrim. All of this was done to just distract sauron so he couldn't completely focus on finding frodo and the ring.

And in lotro, he has us, the players, fight sauron's forces here in eriador.

Originally Posted by criosdaidh22

However you also have to remember there's like 2 or 3 more books about Middle Earth written by Tolkien and/or his son or at least compiled/edited by his son.

More like 20-30

Off the top of my head, there are the Hobbit, the Trilogy, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Letters of JRRT, The Children of Hurin, and The History of Middle-earth (which is like 15 books long.) I'm pretty sure there's a couple more I'm not remembering too.

I think 25 would be a good guess for how many books he's got to his name.

If you'd like to see this all on an interactive map, the classic game War in Middle Earth lets you play through the War of the Ring and you can see where these other places are Erebor, Lothlorien, Pelagir, etc and what battles were going on. Just to warn you, the graphics are a little disappointing after LOTRO

http://www.amazon.com/War-Middle-Ear...N%3DB001GFBPKW

Originally Posted by brasswire12

Oh yeah. Basically Gandalf (perhaps with some assistance from Galadriel) was a master strategist. He was playing chess against Sauron for a hundred years before the War of the Ring started, and the people of Middle Earth were the chess pieces. Not only that but his gut instincts were almost as good at foretelling the future as Galadriel's mirror.

There may actually be a story-based reason for Gandalf's amazing instincts. The Ainur (of which Gandalf was one) all sang together for Eru before the creation of Arda. They sang themes that Eru presented to them, and their music shaped and/or foretold many events that were to come in Middle-earth. Each of the Ainur later remembered only portions of the music, to a greater or lesser degree given their innnate abilities, but nevertheless this recollection (and corresponding foresight) was one of the things that set the Ainur apart as Eru's stewards in Arda (as compared to Elves, Men, etc.).

Turning back to Gandalf, even though the Ainur who became the five wizards (Istari) had their innate power and memories suppressed to an extent while they were cloaked in mortal form for their mission in Middle-earth as agents of the Valar, it is nevertheless possible that Gandalf's intuitions were based in some part on his "recollections" of future events resulting from his participation in the Song of the Ainur.

If You read the Book you will see that their were other battles in other places,Elves were attack, the Dwarfs and Humans together fought the Orcs too.

Originally Posted by Reyph

It pretty cool that Gandalf did all these things to set in motion a large spread out war against Sauron. From setting up the dwarves in the north east to fight against sauron's easternling allies, the elves of lorien and mirkwood to fight against sauron's forces in dul guldor, and banding gondor and rohan together to fight against sauron's own forces and his southern allies, the haradrim. All of this was done to just distract sauron so he couldn't completely focus on finding frodo and the ring.

And in lotro, he has us, the players, fight sauron's forces here in eriador.

Although when Gandalf met Thorin and inspired him to set out east, the Ring was still believed to be lost. I wonder if all Gandalf's plans would have been in vain if Bilbo had never found the Ring, thus enabling the Free Peoples to destroy it and deal Sauron a final destructive blow.

FOR MAHAL'S SAKE,

IT'S DWARVES! NOT DWARFS!

*Heavy breathing*

Originally Posted by Vilnas

Thus, it would have been a huge undertaking fraught with logistical difficulties for any of the extant dwarven and elven realms (save perhaps Lothlorien) to send more than a token force to the aid of Gondor in the battles of the Pellenor Fields and the Black Gate, and in any event the troops simply weren't available. The elven and dwarven realms were greatly diminished by the time of the War of the Ring, and what armies Galadriel (Lothlorien), Thranduil (Mirkwood) and Dain (Erebor) could field were tied up defending their own lands from Sauron's other armies that attacked them at the same time the armies of Gondor and Rohan were battling for survival down south.

Well, the Elves of Lothlorien did come to help the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep...

Originally Posted by LeppardUK

Well, the Elves of Lothlorien did come to help the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep...

In the Jackson version, not in the original.

Originally Posted by Mitchell233

So why didn't the dwarfs and elves gather with the men? I haven't read the books yet and I don't think it explained it in the movies.

In regards to why they didn't send aid when Sauron launched his attack on Minas Tirith - Sauron was also sending armies to attack other strategic locations in Middle-earth. Minas Tirith was just one, albeit the primary, battle that was taking place at that time.

As for why the elves and dwarves didn't send help for the Black Gate - firstly they were far too far away. Anywhere between six hundred and eight hundred miles away. Secondly despite their narrow victories over Sauron's first wave they were pretty much on their last legs and had to bolster their defences as best they could. They certainly couldn't afford to prepare for a major assault and a massive journey after suffering so much from an attack on their homelands. Lastly and most importantly the assault on the Black Gate was never meant to achieve anything militarily. It was used as a diversion to buy Frodo some time and safe passage across Gorgoroth. If Frodo failed then they would have been slaughtered. A few thousand extra elves and dwarves wouldn't have changed the outcome.

Originally Posted by Vilnas

There may actually be a story-based reason for Gandalf's amazing instincts. The Ainur (of which Gandalf was one) all sang together for Eru before the creation of Arda. They sang themes that Eru presented to them, and their music shaped and/or foretold many events that were to come in Middle-earth. Each of the Ainur later remembered only portions of the music, to a greater or lesser degree given their innnate abilities, but nevertheless this recollection (and corresponding foresight) was one of the things that set the Ainur apart as Eru's stewards in Arda (as compared to Elves, Men, etc.).

Turning back to Gandalf, even though the Ainur who became the five wizards (Istari) had their innate power and memories suppressed to an extent while they were cloaked in mortal form for their mission in Middle-earth as agents of the Valar, it is nevertheless possible that Gandalf's intuitions were based in some part on his "recollections" of future events resulting from his participation in the Song of the Ainur.

I had never thought on how Gandalf knew what was going to happen, but this explains it.

As for the OP the dwarves (dwarfs) adn elves were fighitng there own battles

The short answer is this: It's the end of the Third Age, which also means the end of the great kingdoms of elves and dwarves, and the coming of the age of Man (the fourth age). This is actually reflected in racial traits and inherent racial penalties and bonuses for all of these races in the game.

A lot of the elves have already crossed the western sea to the Undying Lands (basically the Middle Earth version of going to heaven, though it works differently. Usually only elves go there, and they choose when to go. Some have even returned to Middle Earth in ages past). Lothlorien is one of the few great elven communities left, and they are extremely isolationistic (Is that a real word? ).

As for the dwarves, very little is ever mentioned of what they were doing as a race during the war, and of their ultimate fate. They're a secretive people, and generally distrustful of outsiders. The race of dwarves was never a large one, and they breed slowly. Wars and conflict have taken their toll on their numbers over the years. Perhaps they spent the war increasing their numbers, though it's probably best not to delve too deeply into that particular vein of conversation.

Originally Posted by Vilnas

There may actually be a story-based reason for Gandalf's amazing instincts. The Ainur (of which Gandalf was one) all sang together for Eru before the creation of Arda. They sang themes that Eru presented to them, and their music shaped and/or foretold many events that were to come in Middle-earth. Each of the Ainur later remembered only portions of the music, to a greater or lesser degree given their innnate abilities, but nevertheless this recollection (and corresponding foresight) was one of the things that set the Ainur apart as Eru's stewards in Arda (as compared to Elves, Men, etc.).

Turning back to Gandalf, even though the Ainur who became the five wizards (Istari) had their innate power and memories suppressed to an extent while they were cloaked in mortal form for their mission in Middle-earth as agents of the Valar, it is nevertheless possible that Gandalf's intuitions were based in some part on his "recollections" of future events resulting from his participation in the Song of the Ainur.

Yes, I always assumed Gandalf constantly had some idea of future events due to this nature. Because Gandalf was a lesser Ainur, a Maia, he would likely have taken part in a lesser theme of the song, seeing only part of the picture (of the history of the world). Thus, he was able to predict some events, but not all.
If he had known the full scope of his actions, I doubt he would have taken the group into Moria, seeing as his defeat (death if you will, I always saw Gandalf the White as a literal re-incarnation of Gandalf the Grey) there was a key factor in splitting the fellowship.

Originally Posted by MannyCalavera

Yes, I always assumed Gandalf constantly had some idea of future events due to this nature. Because Gandalf was a lesser Ainur, a Maia, he would likely have taken part in a lesser theme of the song, seeing only part of the picture (of the history of the world). Thus, he was able to predict some events, but not all.
If he had known the full scope of his actions, I doubt he would have taken the group into Moria, seeing as his defeat (death if you will, I always saw Gandalf the White as a literal re-incarnation of Gandalf the Grey) there was a key factor in splitting the fellowship.

In "The Quest of Erebor" (part of The Unfinished Tales), Gandalf is discussing with the surviving Fellowship how he came to send Bilbo off with Thorin. There are three or four versions, but in a couple of them while Gandalf is talking with Thorin and trying to convince him to take a hobbit, Gandalf has a sudden feeling that Bilbo MUST take part in the quest, and that it was vitally important to convince Thorin.

Read the books when Aragon was buying time for Frodo, Dan Ironfoot King Under The Mountain died defending Dwarfs and Humans as Orcs were attacking all over Middle Earth.

Not only is it possible that Gandalf has some limited foreknowledge/sense of what was going to happen, but it has to be remembered that, in Middle-earth, few things of import actually happen by CHANCE. It was not a lucky coincidence that Thorin and Gandalf happened to be in Bree at the same time--and the passage indicates that they were already inclined to seek one another out... just as it was not a lucky coincidence that Bilbo got lost and found the Ring.

God (Iluvatar) moves in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform.... the hand of God is always active in Tolkien's Middle-Earth.

On Gandalf and prescience: While his powers were heavily diminished in his mortal form, he is originally the spirit the High Elves knew as Olórin - and in the Undying West, he lived in Lórien with Irmo, who is responsible (amongst other things) of visions.

On the Dwarven and Elven parts of the War of the Ring: While Dwarves and their allies from Dale and Lake-town were fighting for their lives, it actually appears that Thranduil and Celeborn/Galadriel did fairly well.

Some dates for Sauron's part of the conflict, from the Encyclopedia of Arda:

The One Ring is destroyed on the 25th of March.

Rohan and Gondor: Major battles in Gondor from the 9th of March (the spread of darkness) to 25th of March (the Black Gate). Sauron assaults Rohan from Dol Guldur, starting on 11th of March.

Dwarves and Dale: Sauron's armies arrive to Dale on 17th of March and the fighting lasts until the 27th of March.

Lothlórien: Assaulted three timeson 11th of March, 15th of March and 22nd of March. (We have word of God information from the Professor that Lothlórien could defend against any assault not lead by Sauron in person, though the attacks still caused significant damage.) Celeborn assaults Dol Guldur after the Ring is destroyed on 28th of March.

The Woodland Realm: Assaulted on the 11th of March. Not much mentioned in the EoA, but I seem to remember them doing fairly well (possibly explained by the main attention of Dol Guldur forces being on Lórien - the Woodland Realm doesn't have an excellent track record on assaulting fortifications, Thranduil's father wasted most of his army in the War of the Last Alliance assaulting the Black Gate independently of his allies.

As for the others, Bree really isn't as large in the books as it is in LotRO, and they're fairly oblivious to the surrounding world. Hobbits don't leave the Shire, and the Dúnedain of the North are with Aragorn. Rivendell really has no armies to speak of and their remaining guards are likely tied up guarding the valley. Admitted, they did Elrond did send two knights to help Aragorn - namely Elladan and Elrohir. Elrond didn't really "send" them, they figured out the war was a nice way to get to kill some Orcs and went anyway with their allies the Dúnedain.

Originally Posted by LeppardUK

Well, the Elves of Lothlorien did come to help the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep...

Good one!

Dwarves and Elves had their own battles to fight. We don't really hear much about those battles, though, because "The Lord of the Rings" is really supposed to be translations from the Red Book of Westmarch which is the account of the War of the Ring as seen by the hobbits (and, if you've got some spare time, decode the cirth and tengwar on the title pages. I dare you.)

EDIT: It also occurs to me that no dwarves or elves were called to aid Gondor at the Pelennor Fields; even Rohan (the adjoining kingdom) was mustered only barely in the nick of time, and the assault on the Black Gate was hastily contrived and executed. There was no time to wait for more soldiers, be they elf, dwarf, or man. Gondor had become increasingly isolated under the stewardship of Denethor.

EDIT THE SECOND: Also, I always read the Silmarillion as saying the Maiar were not "Lesser Ainur" but simply attending spirits who did their bidding. I highly doubt that Olorín had any part in the Great Song. Just nitpicking, but maybe I'm wrong.

On Ainur (the Holy Ones): They're very much made of the same stock, both Valar (Belain, "Powers"), Maiar and even Morgoth: Spirits that existed before the world and were then sent to it. In the very earliest manuscripts, some of the Maiar were even children to Valar (for example Fionwë/Eönwë being the son of Manwë and Varda). So no, fundamentally they are not of a different "race" - and there might still be different kinds of Ainur that never entered the world. The Valar are the most powerful of the spirits that did enter the world as per their name, and then the most powerful of the Valar are called the Aratar (the High Ones: this would also include Melkor before his corruption).

Originally Posted by Macfeast

Basically, they had their own battles to fight. I think there's some subtle hints at that in the movie, where Gimli says something like "I wish I had some dwarves here in this battle", to which Legolas replies "I'm sure they will see war soon enough, as will my folk" (something like that, I don't remember it word for word unfortunately, and when they say it).

The dwarves of Erebor (along with the men of Dale) were besieged by Easterlings to the north. Only after the ring was destroyed and news reached them up there, did the dwarves and men lift the siege and win the battle.

Similarly, the elves of Mirkwood and Lórien came under attack by forces from Dol Guldur (maybe you've seen Dol Guldur in-game?), and were, like the dwarves, caught in their own battle.

In fact, had Sauron's forces not been occupied with the dwarves, elves, and men up in the north, those forces would likely have been more than enough to wipe out the Free Peoples fighting down in Gondor and Rohan.

Yes.

TL;DR - War (either covert or overt) is raging across all of Middle Earth, the Lord of the Rings exposes us to only a fraction of what is going on (the most important fraction, but a fraction nonetheless)

Originally Posted by brasswire12

Oh yeah. Basically Gandalf (perhaps with some assistance from Galadriel) was a master strategist. He was playing chess against Sauron for a hundred years before the War of the Ring started, and the people of Middle Earth were the chess pieces. Not only that but his gut instincts were almost as good at foretelling the future as Galadriel's mirror.

"a hundred years" does not do it justice.

Gandalf and his peers (Istari) were sent into Middle Earth precisely to thwart the Enemy's plans.

One wiki datres Istari entry to ME in TA1050. If the War of the Ring ends in TA3021, Gandalf actively worked against the Enemy for 3021-1050 = 1971 years

I think it is fair to call it "two thousand years" for convenience. i.e. the vast majority of the Third Age.

Originally Posted by Reyph

It pretty cool that Gandalf did all these things to set in motion a large spread out war against Sauron. From setting up the dwarves in the north east to fight against sauron's easternling allies, the elves of lorien and mirkwood to fight against sauron's forces in dul guldor, and banding gondor and rohan together to fight against sauron's own forces and his southern allies, the haradrim. All of this was done to just distract sauron so he couldn't completely focus on finding frodo and the ring.

And in lotro, he has us, the players, fight sauron's forces here in eriador.

I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but you are implying Gandalf was the key actor in everything.

To me, the White Council filled the role of coordinating overall strategy. I don't personally know the membership, but certainly Elrond (and at one time Saruman) were members and were both at least as influential as Gandalf. (Gandalf defers to Elrond constantly, and for good reason). Galadriel and Cirdan were almost certainly members also.

Did Gandalf act decisively on his own accord when he felt the need? Absolutely.
Did Gandalf regularly seek counsel and guidance from others when ever he could? Absolutely.

Even before Gandalf and the Istari arrived, I daresay that the entire race of elves (at least) had a close eye on Sauron and organized themselves as best they could to thwart him. And certainly Arnor-in-exile(Rangers)/Gondor actively worked against Him.

Maybe it's just a nuance, and maybe it's already perfectly obvious, but Gandalf really was more of a helper and guide to all the free peoples (AND master strategist - and who wouldn't be, with the wisdom of Elrond at your disposal) whose key mission was to 'help people help themselves' rather than being the overarching organizing factor, or leader of the resistance, if you will.

Apologies for rambling...

I second that - it would make much sense that Gandalf would seek advice from other members of the White Council, especially those that have lived much longer in Middle Earth. Just take a look:

Elrond, at least according to the Lord of the Rings, was born in Gondolin before it was destroyed, and then has had a part in every important event from the Second Age onwards. He was right next to Gil-Galad during the war against Sauron, and essentially took over leadership over the Noldor after Gil-Galad's death (though the title High King was not used anymore).

Galadriel is even older, being born in Valinor and having arrived with the Noldor during the First Age (though there are a few different versions how this happened). She also took part in every important event in Middle Earth, dating back to the First Age, and even had first-hand experience with Sauron, when he was in disguise in Eregion.

Finally, Cirdan is the oldest of them all, being one of Thingol's folk, back when the elves traveled for the first time to Valinor. Even though he wasn't as directly involved into the major events as Elrond or Galadriel, he has the biggest uninterrupted knowledge of Middle Earth, and likely has accumulated a lot of wisdom.

Thus, Gandalf's task was actually easier than it seems, given that he had quite a few wise and very experienced people (like 5-6 millennia of experience) to seek advice from. And besides, it was actually common sense - you have a sparsely populated north, with few forces from the Free Peoples that can resist a strike, and a dragon roaming freely. It is not actually difficult to figure out that if you let it be this way, it won't end well in the long run. Not to mention that about 1,100 years earlier, Eriador was almost lost after a war with Angmar, so it was best if history is not repeated.

The Lord of Rings somewhat reminds me of documenting the American War of the Rebellion (Sometimes called the Civil war) by only covering the operations of the Army of North Virginia under Robert E Lee. We only focus on the critical path of the war via the Lord of the Rings. I would have been nice had Tolkien filled in all the gaps. We get to see what happened in the other areas.

I get the feeling that the War of the Rings is going the same way the War of the Rebellion was going. Unless the One Ring is destroyed soon. Gandalf and company are going to be facing the same issue Lee did. It does not matter how well we do. We going to be crushed.

Note: I am not saying that the North was Sauron. Or that the South had a win instantly chance.

Both wars appear to wars of attrition. One side is much stronger than the other. Plus the stronger side is willing to spend the time and to pay the required human and economic cost to win.

Well, as they say in Mordor, "Life is cheap".

American War of the Rebellion (Sometimes called the Civil war)

Someone's a Yankee