Thread: Why hadn't the dwarfs and elves, help fight at the Pelennor Fields, Black gate?

So why didn't the dwarfs and elves gather with the men? I haven't read the books yet and I don't think it explained it in the movies.

Both had an army of one I guess. Legolas and Gimli.

Originally Posted by candacebohn

Both had an army of one I guess. Legolas and Gimli.

*nods*

yep...army of 2...

"Dwarves never fight on pancake day"
- Letters

"It is said that this was the worst wash-day in the history if Lothlorien, the shrunken pants made the ride to Pelennor impossible"
- The Return of the king appendix

I don't want to spoil anything but there's more going on with the War of the Ring than what is covered in the main narrative. You should read the books. They're really good.

If you don't want to read the books you should discover The Encyclopedia of Arda or one of the other neat-o Tolkien sites out there.

Basically, they had their own battles to fight. I think there's some subtle hints at that in the movie, where Gimli says something like "I wish I had some dwarves here in this battle", to which Legolas replies "I'm sure they will see war soon enough, as will my folk" (something like that, I don't remember it word for word unfortunately, and when they say it).

The dwarves of Erebor (along with the men of Dale) were besieged by Easterlings to the north. Only after the ring was destroyed and news reached them up there, did the dwarves and men lift the siege and win the battle.

Similarly, the elves of Mirkwood and Lórien came under attack by forces from Dol Guldur (maybe you've seen Dol Guldur in-game?), and were, like the dwarves, caught in their own battle.

In fact, had Sauron's forces not been occupied with the dwarves, elves, and men up in the north, those forces would likely have been more than enough to wipe out the Free Peoples fighting down in Gondor and Rohan.

Alright thank you! I'm reading the Fellowship of the Ring at the moment. The writing is unbelievable brilliant!

I'm half way through the Return of the King as we speak, fresh off reading the first 2 of the trilogy and the Hobbit as well.

I haven't really read anything about the elves/dwarves and what was going on in their homelands yet, at least not that I remember. However you also have to remember there's like 2 or 3 more books about Middle Earth written by Tolkien and/or his son or at least compiled/edited by his son.

However I believe from reading on websites and such in the past that the above post was correct. I think pretty much all the races except maybe the hobbits were actually involved in open warfare with some sect of Saurons followers.

Gimli and Legolas just got caught up in the "main storyline" because they were ambassadors sent to Rivendell and thus they were part of the fellowship. I believe their homelands were very much at war as was Gondor but Gondor also sent Boromir their captain to Rivendell. (so he was like the human version of Legolas and Gimlie).

I really wish Tolkien could have been a Dunedain, that way he could have had time to write another 20 books or so about all the other things going on in middle earth. I would love to read a story he wrote about the conquests of the other dwarves/elves and free peoples of middle earth in that time period.

Originally Posted by criosdaidh22

I'm half way through the Return of the King as we speak, fresh off reading the first 2 of the trilogy and the Hobbit as well.

I haven't really read anything about the elves/dwarves and what was going on in their homelands yet, at least not that I remember.

Tolkien doesn't focus hard on it during the LOTR, but toward the end of the Fellowship of the Ring when Frodo is on the seat at Amon Hen he gazes at the various lands. After the first look he is aware of a great deal of activity. Men from the East and South on the march, and the dust of battle under the eaves of Mirkwood (near Dol Guldur and in the north near the Caves of Thranduil) and Lorien. The Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain are under siege.

Legolas, during his discussion with Gimli as previously mentioned, first gazes into the distance before he replies. How much he sees or hears he keeps to himself, but his words are true ... The elves and dwarves have battle enough in their own lands.

Originally Posted by criosdaidh22

However you also have to remember there's like 2 or 3 more books about Middle Earth written by Tolkien and/or his son or at least compiled/edited by his son.

More like 20-30

Off the top of my head, there are the Hobbit, the Trilogy, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Letters of JRRT, The Children of Hurin, and The History of Middle-earth (which is like 15 books long.) I'm pretty sure there's a couple more I'm not remembering too.

I think 25 would be a good guess for how many books he's got to his name.

Just wanted to add a bit more texture to the excellent responses above:

During this period Middle-earth was rather sparsely populated, especially with respect to the non-human races. There just don't seem to have been any major civilizations of elves and dwarves left in that part of the world.

For the dwarves the only major realms were at Erebor (the Lonely Mountain) and the Iron Hills. There were also dwarves living in the Ered Luin, although the size of these during the period of the War of the Ring aren't very clear. Khazad Dum (Moria) had long since fallen and wasn't recolonized until after the War of the Ring (notwithstanding Turbine's treatment in LOTRO). Also keep in mind that the dwarven population of Erebor was exactly zero in 2941 when Smaug was slain. The battles of the Pelennor Fields and the Black Gate took place in 3019, which is 78 years later. The dwarves that repopulated Erebor were presumably emigrants from the Iron Hills and the Ered Luin settlements, so that would have essentially been a zero sum game in terms of overall population (although perhaps there would have been a mini "baby boom" in the happy aftermath of the restoration of Erebor).

For the elves, you had only Lothlorien, Northern Mirkwood and Lindon/Grey Havens in terms of major population centers. If you look at the maps, you will see that geographically Lorien and Thranduils realm in Mirkwood were pretty small compared to Gondor, and I just never got the sense that any of them had a particularly large population at the time of the War of the Ring. Lindon/Grey Havens had actually been a very significant realm at the end of the Second Age (when Sauron was defeated by the Last Alliance), but afterwards a great many of its inhabitants appear to have sailed into the West. There was also Rivendell of course, but there is a reason why it was sometimes called "the Last Homely House." It was really more of a refuge in a hidden valley than a kingdom or even a city-state, and I would be very surprised if the total population of Elrond's folk was more than 1,000 (and probably considerably less than that).

Geography also plays a very large part in this question. Lothlorien was approximately 500 miles from Minas Tirith. Erebor and the Iron Hills were probably around 600-750 miles away. Lindon and the Ered Luin settlements were well over 1,000 miles from Minas Tirith, and troops coming from that direction would have had to take an even longer path down the coast and come through western Gondor because Saruman controlled the Gap of Rohan (although I suppose in a perfect world we might assume a scenario in which they managed to attack Saruman from the west in support of the Rohirrim).

Thus, it would have been a huge undertaking fraught with logistical difficulties for any of the extant dwarven and elven realms (save perhaps Lothlorien) to send more than a token force to the aid of Gondor in the battles of the Pellenor Fields and the Black Gate, and in any event the troops simply weren't available. The elven and dwarven realms were greatly diminished by the time of the War of the Ring, and what armies Galadriel (Lothlorien), Thranduil (Mirkwood) and Dain (Erebor) could field were tied up defending their own lands from Sauron's other armies that attacked them at the same time the armies of Gondor and Rohan were battling for survival down south.

IIRC, there was a dwarf and three elves present.

Surely you're not suggesting more were needed?

http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Middle-E...1164177&sr=8-1


This is an awesome book to find out all you need to know.Great read with tons of maps.

Originally Posted by Vilnas

Thus, it would have been a huge undertaking fraught with logistical difficulties for any of the extant dwarven and elven realms (save perhaps Lothlorien) to send more than a token force to the aid of Gondor in the battles of the Pellenor Fields and the Black Gate, and in any event the troops simply weren't available. The elven and dwarven realms were greatly diminished by the time of the War of the Ring, and what armies Galadriel (Lothlorien), Thranduil (Mirkwood) and Dain (Erebor) could field were tied up defending their own lands from Sauron's other armies that attacked them at the same time the armies of Gondor and Rohan were battling for survival down south.

Well, the Elves of Lothlorien did come to help the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep...

Originally Posted by LeppardUK

Well, the Elves of Lothlorien did come to help the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep...

In the Jackson version, not in the original.

Originally Posted by LeppardUK

Well, the Elves of Lothlorien did come to help the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep...

Good one!

Originally Posted by LeppardUK

Well, the Elves of Lothlorien did come to help the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep...

Your quoting from the movie, in the books that didn't happen, while the movie was a outstanding piece of work and a tribute to PJ's love of Tolkien, the movie is a poor source to quote Tolkien's work.

Originally Posted by Mitchell233

Alright thank you! I'm reading the Fellowship of the Ring at the moment. The writing is unbelievable brilliant!

you have no Idea just how brilliant Tolkien was (no slight meant toward you) , after you read Lord of the Rings, and would like to find out more about the Elder days, Sauron's early days, His Master Morgoth and other mystery's that Lotr only hints at, read Silmarillion that's where the professors brilliance really shines, Keep on mind he started Silmarillion in 1917 in its earliest form, and he didn't considered it complete when he died in 1977.
Any way, welcome to the Tolkien fan club the man was a genius.

Originally Posted by Onir

IT'S DWARVES! NOT DWARFS!

I thought officially it was 'dwarfs', with a lower-case D.

Originally Posted by auximenes

I thought officially it was 'dwarfs', with a lower-case D.

It is (or was), but Tolkien used "dwarves" for reasons of his own (a quick blurb of which you can read here). Since then, however, "dwarves" has apparently become as accepted and as official as "dwarfs," at least as far as I can tell.

Originally Posted by Macfeast

Basically, they had their own battles to fight. I think there's some subtle hints at that in the movie, where Gimli says something like "I wish I had some dwarves here in this battle", to which Legolas replies "I'm sure they will see war soon enough, as will my folk" (something like that, I don't remember it word for word unfortunately, and when they say it).

The dwarves of Erebor (along with the men of Dale) were besieged by Easterlings to the north. Only after the ring was destroyed and news reached them up there, did the dwarves and men lift the siege and win the battle.

Similarly, the elves of Mirkwood and Lórien came under attack by forces from Dol Guldur (maybe you've seen Dol Guldur in-game?), and were, like the dwarves, caught in their own battle.

In fact, had Sauron's forces not been occupied with the dwarves, elves, and men up in the north, those forces would likely have been more than enough to wipe out the Free Peoples fighting down in Gondor and Rohan.

Yes.

TL;DR - War (either covert or overt) is raging across all of Middle Earth, the Lord of the Rings exposes us to only a fraction of what is going on (the most important fraction, but a fraction nonetheless)

Originally Posted by Mitchell233

So why didn't the dwarfs and elves gather with the men? I haven't read the books yet and I don't think it explained it in the movies.

In regards to why they didn't send aid when Sauron launched his attack on Minas Tirith - Sauron was also sending armies to attack other strategic locations in Middle-earth. Minas Tirith was just one, albeit the primary, battle that was taking place at that time.

As for why the elves and dwarves didn't send help for the Black Gate - firstly they were far too far away. Anywhere between six hundred and eight hundred miles away. Secondly despite their narrow victories over Sauron's first wave they were pretty much on their last legs and had to bolster their defences as best they could. They certainly couldn't afford to prepare for a major assault and a massive journey after suffering so much from an attack on their homelands. Lastly and most importantly the assault on the Black Gate was never meant to achieve anything militarily. It was used as a diversion to buy Frodo some time and safe passage across Gorgoroth. If Frodo failed then they would have been slaughtered. A few thousand extra elves and dwarves wouldn't have changed the outcome.