Thread: Dev Diary Fedback: November Update Rune-keeper Changes

Originally Posted by Bradd

Then, since many people have parsed the difference between live and test, and all have parsed at least a 5% drop. Many have parsed more than a 10% drop. That should satisfy you that the nerfs are not just theoretical.

I haven't seen a single parse. In every post claiming a nerf, people have said the "math" proves it. Have you posted a parse? Can you or anyone else claim that they are able to eliminate all variables outside of the changed skills and traits to accurately show a difference between live and test? Have you or anyone else spent more than a day or two experimenting with all the options now available to ensure that you are putting out the most you can for a given build?


Didn't think so.

Originally Posted by Bradd

I find that when some people can't attack your argument logically, they attack you.

I have attacked your argument logically, but you and the rest of the "nerf" camp are blinded by your single-minded rage against the devs.

Originally Posted by Bradd

While I do not think the nerf to Lightning dps is warrented, I agree the other changes are more disconcerting. Most RKs do not want their healing to change from HoT based to direct heals. Most do not want to be forced into long induction spells.

Since we only have one long induction heal (which you can trait to reduce the induction) how does this imply a change from HoT based healing to direct healing? Because of a slight change in MV?

Originally Posted by Bradd

Regarding Master of Writs, most RKs prefer to be top tier dps and top tier healing (but not at the same time), rather than pretty good healing and pretty good dps at the same time.

I think I already pretty much busted that idea -- you don't have to DPS while healing, so when your healing output isn't being affected by that, are you saying the small change in MV combined with some power utilization changes makes us let than top tier healing? We're we that close to not being top tier to begin with?

You guys are firmly entrenched in the doom and gloom camp. It doesn't matter what logical argument anyone comes up with, nothing will change your mind. Its a waste of time to keep arguing for either position. The proof in the pudding will be a month or two after the patch goes live. Then will see how we're really doing.


Until then........

Originally Posted by Bradd

Overall, it feels like they do not like how we are playing, and nerfing things to make us play in a certain way. We are relying too much on Scribe’s Spark, so ythey nerf it 15%. We rely too much on Mending Verse, and don’t cast Epic of the Ages as much as they think we should, so think nerf Mending Verse and buff Epic of the Ages. We are speccing Lightning in raids instead of Fire, so they nerf Lightning so that it will be too weak to use in raids. We prefer short inductions spells over long induction spells, so they change things to try to force us to use the long induction spells. To some extent, I feel we are being pushed into playing in a way most RKs do not want to play.

This seems to be Turbine's MO since Mines of Moria: play along the designated path or we will keep changing things until you have no choice, regardless what it costs the players. And to the poster who bemoaned the uncharacteristic lack of response to the RK community, it seems this past year or so, stonewalling has been another Turbine MO. I'm actually totally shocked anymore when we do get a response from a dev.

I approve of these changes. I'm really excited about master of writs, being able to dps and still help out the main healer with something other than prelude.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

I have attacked your argument logically, but you and the rest of the "nerf" camp are blinded by your single-minded rage against the devs.



Since we only have one long induction heal (which you can trait to reduce the induction) how does this imply a change from HoT based healing to direct healing? Because of a slight change in MV?



I think I already pretty much busted that idea -- you don't have to DPS while healing, so when your healing output isn't being affected by that, are you saying the small change in MV combined with some power utilization changes makes us let than top tier healing? We're we that close to not being top tier to begin with?

You guys are firmly entrenched in the doom and gloom camp. It doesn't matter what logical argument anyone comes up with, nothing will change your mind. Its a waste of time to keep arguing for either position. The proof in the pudding will be a month or two after the patch goes live. Then will see how we're really doing.


Until then........

Thanks for pigeonholing us. I'll return the favor.

Maybe the lawn in front of your house is covered in gum-drops and popsicles. I don't know. Obviously everything around you is exactly as you want it. That's great for you.

Others of us have voiced many concerns about the class change - not just about the hard math (which we don't have to prove - the patch notes prove it for us - also please visit the RK forums and look at what we've posted). We've done a lot of research and spent time on this. There ARE parses that players have done, and reported to us on the RK forums. Have you check there? Your "I am logical you are not." or "You can't prove anything." statements are just plain false.

Here's simple proof of a damage nerf:

Go reread the patch notes on lightning. Do you see where the top position or second top position most used skill (also known as scribes spark) for a DPS RK - you see where that is mentioned? Go ahead and read what was done to that skill. And yes, many of us have confirmed this on the test server.

And yes, we were given another skill and a lightning chisel. The skill that we were given is on a 30-sec cooldown (15s if properly traited) and is very expensive, and offers a 10% power savings on subsequent skills, but that doesn't offset the change to SS. Scribes spark is the single most buffable RK skill through legendaries. A nerf to that skill is a significant adjustment to the class.

For you to ignore this is... well... ignorant.

In addition, ZC posted a Q&A thread on RK forums. Go read that. He gave his reason for nerfing MV - he was more interested in pushing RK over to EftA as the "most power efficient heal" (see his response on the Q&A). I'd like to add, it's the most "worthless heal" (quoting myself and a ton of other RK). Emergency skills are made to be used in an emergency, not 5 seconds after the emergency, on your buddy's corpse.

Finally, the hybridization is, in many player's opinions, a step in the WRONG direction. It's fine that you disagree with that, but many of us feel that this is a step downwards for the RK. There is no "right" or "wrong" with this view - just an opinion. You are welcome to yours. I suspect you are in a minority of players that are happy or at least ambivalent about the upcoming patch.

But to suggest that we have no logic, and to resort to personal attacks is juvenile. Then again, this is the internet, maybe you are a juvenile, and in that case, hey... cool. I'm glad that mommy and daddy let you play a game that so many mature players have invested into so heavily with time and money.

Feedback from Devs would be cool. I've made my feelings pretty clear along those lines earlier.


To summarize:

You are wrong.
Lightning changes are a nerf.
Healing changes are a nerf/useless.
Hybridization of the RK is a mistake in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Clover

The Rune-keeper currently sits at top tier in both damage and healing output. Because of this, the goals we have set for this update did not focus on increasing or decreasing net effectiveness, but on adding variety, customization and more dynamic skill interaction to achieve these results.

Read more in the latest Developer Diary from Brian 'Zombie Columbus' Aloisio and post your comments here!

It's obvious that the Rune-Keeper and Wardens are your "Mary Sue" classes of Lotro, but can you assure the rest of us who don't play overplayed god like classes that future expansions won't have mobs scaled to be challenging for Wardens and Runekeepers, thus making the game unwinnable for us neglected classes?

Originally Posted by Feraxks

Please note that I have never claimed they the devs haven't nerfed us, I have only maintained that doing the "math" never lives up to actual game play and that until more than one or two uber RKs have access to all the new toys, there's no way to KNOW what the real effects of the changes will be.

First of all, no one should program for some "imagined uber RK's". Secondly, in my experience, usually no set of algorithms is played out in the vacuum of a perfect world; therefore, it falls short of the ideal. RK's will likely see an unpleasant drop in real time output. When Turbine first nerfed the class, the drop was catastrophic. Part of my reaction to this change is based on what they did then, and how much what they are saying now sounds like what they were saying then. They were "standardizing" RK damage. "Standardizing" must have been one of their synonyms for "reducing" because RK damage was never standardized; it is still spotty and requires hard and careful work on gear and a continued rotation to generate decent damage. In the early days, my RK could crit for 9K plus damage at level 60 in non radiance gear. Those days have long since fallen by the wayside. STRIKE 1

Do I wish I could have that power back? Why, yes I do. Do I feel that nerf was "reasonable" maybe...most importantly, I lived with it; and found the new balances to make the most of things because I knew no other class could do that kind of damage. The nerf was hard, but we adjusted and coped. They reduced our dps by a huge amount: more than they indicated it would be. This new SS reduction is disturbing. I saw nothing in the dev notes that said just how much of a reduction it was: just another slam with the ever-present "Turbine nerf-bat". STRIKE 2.

I use mending verse like all other RK's because I can rely on the low power consumption and the ability to stack heals and tier down power use. Now, well what's the point? That's out the window now, too. Something ELSE to complicate our power usage. STRIKE 3

There were foul balls in there, as well. The trait bonuses that never worked and are not now going to be fixed combined with the legacy lottery...really foul, if you ask me.

The good times for me as a RK involve finding the best spells in the repertoire, arranging them to maximize my play style, and running instances and the moors with friends. Those situations do not ever include a ridiculous array of skills. For me, the essence of skill and experience in a player is the ability to be very aware of your surroundings, on the mark with your reactions, and to figure out the puzzles of exactly how to manage an instance as part of a group. I don't want to design and fly a rocket.

"Hybrid"..."humbug" (see rocket quote above)

I do like to blow things up...

They could make the class so complicated that no one will play it.

oh, one more thing: what Bradd and Uundamp said...

Originally Posted by Feraxks

I haven't seen a single parse. In every post claiming a nerf, people have said the "math" proves it. Have you posted a parse? Can you or anyone else claim that they are able to eliminate all variables outside of the changed skills and traits to accurately show a difference between live and test? Have you or anyone else spent more than a day or two experimenting with all the options now available to ensure that you are putting out the most you can for a given build?


Didn't think so.

So you want to see numbers and say that because people didn't post an insane and probably useless set of numbers for most of us they didn't do it? I'm sure that at times people lie to others in life all the time, people lie to others on the internet ALL the time. Are the people that say that they have run the numbers on BR lying now? I can't say, I don't know them personally. BUT I can read the patch.... no sorry, THE DEV notes as to what's intended. To me, I can smell the nerfbat from here.

Maybe instead of staying on your high horse you might want to get down and do the same thing that the rest of the posters that don't agree with your point of view have done and read the Dev log for yourself and think about it. I'm sorry that you feel so strongly about your point of view that you have to attack others rather than stop to consider them. At this point that's all I'm getting from your comments here. So if the numbers would make you happy I hope someone posts them for you or bothers to go searching for the posts in the RK forums for you to go see. Otherwise, I hope that you take the time to go do some looking for the info before you keep attacking and claiming foul without anything to back your position up.

Fact remains is that apparently there's going to be no dps reduction but by making the class more... challenging and cumbersome from what the log has stated as "improvements", they are making the class less attractive to those that are comfortable with it now and to those that may want to make one later. You like the changes? Maybe they can make a server with all the nerfs and all the "lesser" classes you think this will make you more equal too and figure out how to call it "Kitty Island" in Sindarin.

I will not use Epic.

I thought my sparky was supposed to heal in anticipation of damage, not throw a bolster courage type skill after the fact. To me, the skill just isn't right and doesn't fit the class at all.

It really doesn't matter how nice a skirt you dress that pig up in - I'm not going to have a deep and meaningful with it because it's just not right.

The Rune-keeper currently sits at top tier in both damage and healing output. Because of this, they are simply too much fun to play and must be changed. We cannot allow people to have too much fun playing this game as they may spend all of their time online instead of living real lives. Therefore, as a public sevice, we have decided the fun of playing a Rune-keeper must be significantly reduced. We have nerfed power usage, dps, and healing to achieve these results. The changes we have proposed should greatly reduce the amount of time former Rune-keeper fans spend online and therefore benefit society as a whole.

Originally Posted by Bradd

I have reservations about the proposed changes.

<SNIP>

Overall impression

To be honest, I am very disappointed with the update. If the forums are any indication, most RKs agree. There are several reasons for this:

First, it feels like you do not like how we are playing, and nerfing things to make us play in a certain way. We are relying too much on Scribe’s Spark, so you nerf it 15%. We rely too much on Mending Verse, and don’t cast Epic of the Ages as much as we should, so you nerf Mending Verse and buff Epic of the Ages. We are speccing Lightning in raids instead of Fire, so you nerf Lightning so that it will be too weak to use in raids. We prefer short inductions spells over long induction spells, so you change things to try to force us to use the long induction spells. To some extent, we feel we are being pushed into playing in a way we do not want to play, instead of being given options.

Secondly, many of us have tested the changes, and run the math, and see a substantial reduction in dps. While it may be true that, if we change how we play, spec and gear ... and play absolutely perfectly ... we may be able to come close to our prior dps (90-95%???). In reality, that certainly feels like a nerf. If you make the class harder to play, and say you have to play it absolutely perfectly just to approach your previous dps, that is a practical nerf for the vast majority of players. Also, what is the reason for all these changes (if not to nerf us)? To be blunt, the players are the best judge of what is fun. Most RKs like the class as it is now - why change it?

Next, you are asking us to make trade offs that honestly feel unfair. The perfect example is the Tale of the Storm / Sustaining Bolt / Lightning Chisel situation. Prior to the changes, we received a free -10% power cost (from Tale of the Storm) and were able to equip a chisel with 720 penetration resistance. Now, we have to sacrifice 720+ Penetration and cast a spell, just to get the -10% power cost we got for free before.

Finally, the disappointment is in part based on the disconnect between how we play, what we see in game, what we expressed in our feedback, and our expectations for this "polish" ... versus what these changes seem to indicate are your feelings about the class. Based on our feedback, and what we saw in game, we were expecting a very slight nerf to Lightning (focused on Epic Conclusion since that is where most of the complaints come from). We were expecting Healing to get a slight buff, and Fire to get a noticeable buff. What we see (remember that perception is reality to us) is vastly different. Our perception is that Lightning is nerfed quite a bit, healing output is the same (or maybe even slightly worse), and Fire is only marginally buffed. When we compare ourselves to Hunters and Minstrels, it does not seem like this is warranted.

We were expecting what other classes are getting - exciting new changes that make you look forward to the "polish" patch. Instead, many of us are dreading the patch. How is that a good thing? You seem to have polished us so much ... you have polished away the luster.

This sums up my opinion about these changes. We don't play the RK the way we are supposed to, so we are being forced to PAI (play as intended). We've seen this repeatedly as the underlining reason for class changes over the years.

It is particularly disingenuous for ZC to state:

"Because of this, the goals we have set for this update did not focus on increasing or decreasing net effectiveness, but on adding variety, customization and more dynamic skill interaction to achieve these results. In other words, our goal was to add more “advanced” into this “advanced” class. To achieve this, we enhanced underused skills, scaled back overly potent skills, and introduced more options into skill rotations."

I think this translates to:

We've made it harder for you to use the skill rotation that really works by making it less effective. At the same time, we've added a skill that is very power expensive. Consequently, you'll really have to think a lot before you use it, rather than just spamming Scribe's Spark, because once you use it, you won't have the power to do much else. That's what makes this an "advanced" class by the way, the absolute necessity to power manage at all times! We've carried that over to healing, too! Vanilla healing just got less effective and more expensive. Hey guys! Have fun with that! Finally, we hope this will cause you all to play the class more as we envisioned rather than you actually do!

I am extremely disappointed that changes to fire are so meh. I wonder if the only way to put fire supposedly on the same footing as lightning was to cause lightning to be so power intensive that only very "advanced" players can manage their power (and obtain the gear) sufficiently to use it, forcing less advanced players to stick with fire.

All I can say is that thankfully I have eight level 65 toons. That puts me in the position of putting a class on the shelve when it gets "updated" like this and playing something else. I look forward to cranking up my LM because the LM changes do sound awesome.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

I haven't seen a single parse. In every post claiming a nerf, people have said the "math" proves it. Have you posted a parse? Can you or anyone else claim that they are able to eliminate all variables outside of the changed skills and traits to accurately show a difference between live and test? Have you or anyone else spent more than a day or two experimenting with all the options now available to ensure that you are putting out the most you can for a given build?


Didn't think so.

Here's a shocking fact: Beta testers may not re-post their beta postings in Live. Uhn-uh. Violation of the beta NDA. A lot of players who have the goods have them because they are beta testers and have spent a good deal of time testing and responding to changes in the the beta forums. And I am not talking about Bullroarer.

So ease back.

Originally Posted by orcfeller

"They already nerfed the devil out of them a long time ago...."

If I recall correctly the only recent change to the champion class besides a new skill was the -30% healing while in fervour. I don't remember any "nerfing the devil" out of champions. If you now cant tank end-game raid bosses while in fervour, guess what, you're not supposed to! If you ask me fervour is still OP, I've fervour tanked SG HM numerous times, which if you ask me should not be possible or nearly so easy. Champions are fine where they are right now, reduced healing in a DPS stance is not a gimp, in fact with a good tank it doesn't reallly effect you at all. If you cant tank everything in fervour then use glory.... thats what its there for.

On topic about the RK changes though, I personally do not have a lvl 65 RK, but I was talking to a good RK friend and he was saying that he personally thought the RK changes were ok. When I mentioned that RKs on the forums were saying the changes were a nerf, he said that forum RKs are... eh, well never mind

That -30% healing in fervor was a recent change. We are talking about the nerf of the Champion that happened a LONG time ago. Champs used to be. . . well, I'm starting to weep, so I'll leave it there.

I think they should have gone farther in reducing the RK. I think they're overpowered. Yes, I've got one, so I'm not saying this without some direct RK experience.

Originally Posted by auximenes

I think they should have gone farther in reducing the RK. I think they're overpowered. Yes, I've got one, so I'm not saying this without some direct RK experience.

I agree. I can't wait for the day when my RK puts out DPS like a captain and heals like a champion.

Originally Posted by Clover

The Rune-keeper currently sits at top tier in both damage and healing output. Because of this, the goals we have set for this update did not focus on increasing or decreasing net effectiveness, but on adding variety, customization and more dynamic skill interaction to achieve these results.

Read more in the latest Developer Diary from Brian 'Zombie Columbus' Aloisio and post your comments here!

I am willing to wait until I see the changes go live to comment fully. I am going to speculate and then hope I am wrong because I love Turbine, so I hope what I believe is not true. The quoted statement reads like someone who is trying to be deceptive. You are top tier in both...blah blah blah...we did not FOCUS on increasing or decreasing your net effectiveness. We did not FOCUS on it...it just happened that we decreased you while adding variety, customization and....wait for it...dynamic skill interaction. What I am hearing is "We NERFED your class and do not have the necessary character to own up to it and will use double speak to confuse you" The lack of response to all these threads is also VERY telling. I would respect and handle...RKs are overpowered and we needed to bring them in line. We tried to make you more fun and interesting to compensate. I hate being talked like I am stupid and that is exactly what this feels like. I HOPE I am completely wrong and I will totally apologize if I am. Some responses to a few of the more well written but polite criticisms would be a nice start.

EDIT I am more than fine with a 5% decrease (You will still have a spot in raids, raiding is easy, it just takes time for a group of people to learn to do something together, it doesn't make you special) I really only have a problem with the way the announcement smells, I smell something bovine and STINKY!!!!!

As a main-healing RK I cannot see any reason why I would be so wasteful & use master of writs. A tier 3 WoF is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of my group/raid putting the beatdown on a boss/mobs. I would also have to be continually breaking heal attunement to keep it up- breaking AFE and losing induction setback immunity & group damage mitigation. Given the increased heal power costs AND the 'Master' of writs costing +50% power (or even 20% with the new riffler), why would I be so stupid?
Putting up writs @ increased costs when combat starts? Sorry, but a T1 WoH isn't going to save anybody during the first few seconds of the tank taking massive damage. Either is a T2 WoH. Y'no what- neither is a T3. How do I know? I already do this on live right now with a simple, easy to craft enamel. Doesn't cost me any extra power at all.
Master of Writs in 3-man content? Maybe. But I already heal these things whilst dps traited with a rock, prelude and clever use of a legendary trait known as Steady Hands.
So...assuming we have to purchase these new skills, I think I just saved myself a few hundred silver.

Epic for the Ages STILL has not had it new trait updated on the test server, so nobody even knows how/if you have actually helped us out here and improved it. Does the EFTA trait apply the buff after we cast it? Or is it a random proc like the Chisel of Lightning? Maybe the buff only works on Bilbo's birthday? Makes sense, because that's just about how often I cast EFTA on live.
Sure would be nice to test though. I suppose we just have to take your word on it? What's that worth these days? Oh.

Many responses in this thread that mirror my concerns for the dps nerfs/changes. I can live with an overall damage nerf, but to completely gut the playstyle and replace it with this...this...illusion of choice? No.
3% run speed? I take it game development degrees are being handed out in boxes of Cornflakes again?

This whole update reeks of rush job, to be honest. Heck, look at this thread title & the diary itself. F2P cutbacks must of nuked the spell checker at Turbine.
Our class "Developer" incorrectly lists trait & skill changes under spell-school headings, instead of the correct traitline names. Brian Aloisio, can you please ask somebody to check your work on the RK class?

Originally Posted by Uundamp

This!

And... a short response to the rude comments earlier (not directed at the poster I just quoted): A suggestion that I go play another game? Why don't you go play another game! I'm a paying customer, and I'm joining with other paying customers who are unsatisfied with changes to the product that turbine is selling.

Additionally, your attempt at a logical response to my request for Dev and PR response from Turbine is a failure. You don't address my concerns, you simply toss off about champions and other QQs. To compare a champ to an RK is the proverbial apples and oranges comparison. Please don't be so obtuse.

This update, as said previously by so many, is a mistake. It takes a class that was good at DPS or Healing (something no other class could do) without being a hybrid, and hybridizes the class into a generic mixing of the two roles.

Why? To sell more "rifflers" in the turbine store? How about this... add the rifflers and stuff, but leave what the RK already has in terms of skills and power. And add your new skills on top of that. And fix the trait lines.

Rune-keepers are a hybrid, and folks are saying it as if it is a bad thing. You want your cake and to eat it too ... I will trust those of us who have truly given the RK a testing in BETA than to the sniveling "Chicken Little" whimpers of people who are lamenting for no other reason than to do so. 5%? Really ... all of this "up in arms" over potentially 5% loss of DPS? 5% can be overcame by any player worth their salt in skill. I am afraid I see little reason for such anger to be directed at Turbine ...

If they make any truly class-breaking adjustments, when it goes Live, please- find them ... help Turbine with some solid testing and I am certain that come the next few patches, they will have adjustments to correct the problem. There are many roads this conversation to take, but comments like DPSing like a Captain and healing like a Champion is just utterly ridiculous. I have my own personal views of the RK class, which have no place here ... but those who love the RK should feel lucky that the class even exists; there was a time when this game managed perfectly without them.

I suggest the loyal RK players offer positive feedback/tweaks for corrections in the future. After all, even post-patch... RKs are soloing Sword Halls. How many other classes can do that? RKs have very FEW limitations placed on them in comparison to some other classes which has HUGE negatives in order for them to perform their primary role.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

You've caught me......I haven't run CSTATS to determine whether or not I see a drop, much like I doubt that any of the proponents of the "they've nerfed us" group have done it to support their claims. I do not have access to all the new chisels and rifflers, so I do not feel that I can make a good apples to apples comparison between live and BR.

Please note that I have never claimed they the devs haven't nerfed us, I have only maintained that doing the "math" never lives up to actual game play and that until more than one or two uber RKs have access to all the new toys, there's no way to KNOW what the real effects of the changes will be.

I do disagree strongly with the idea that they are making us more of a hybrid class. The ability to use a DPS writ while healing or a healing writ while DPSing does not make us a hybrid class. From my perspective, all it does is give us options. You don't have to use WoF while healing, but its there if you want it and by choosing to use it you know your healing output will go down. Same thing with decided what chisel/riffler to use before the battle begins -- just more options.

I guess the best argument I can bring against the, "you will have to play perfectly to see the same DPS you had before" line of reasoning is that when you use the "math" to prove the so-called DPS nerf -- that's also a perfect scenerio. You would have to be hitting the max possible everytime on the live servers and compare that against hitting the max possible everytime on BR to see what the difference is. Since both cases are truly theoretical (because of all the variable in gameplay), how can you use that as an argument that DPS has been nerfed? Neither can be achieved, so it can't be used as a valid argument -- that's why actual game play trumps the "math" everytime.

Originally Posted by warriorpoetex

Rune-keepers are a hybrid, and folks are saying it as if it is a bad thing. You want your cake and to eat it too ... I will trust those of us who have truly given the RK a testing in BETA than to the sniveling "Chicken Little" whimpers of people who are lamenting for no other reason than to do so. 5%? Really ... all of this "up in arms" over potentially 5% loss of DPS? 5% can be overcame by any player worth their salt in skill. I am afraid I see little reason for such anger to be directed at Turbine ...

If they make any truly class-breaking adjustments, when it goes Live, please- find them ... help Turbine with some solid testing and I am certain that come the next few patches, they will have adjustments to correct the problem. There are many roads this conversation to take, but comments like DPSing like a Captain and healing like a Champion is just utterly ridiculous. I have my own personal views of the RK class, which have no place here ... but those who love the RK should feel lucky that the class even exists; there was a time when this game managed perfectly without them.

I suggest the loyal RK players offer positive feedback/tweaks for corrections in the future. After all, even post-patch... RKs are soloing Sword Halls. How many other classes can do that? RKs have very FEW limitations placed on them in comparison to some other classes which has HUGE negatives in order for them to perform their primary role.

Have you two even read the posts from the folks that are playing/testing this out and parsing the damage on the test server? I'm just stunned you pretend that several pages in this thread alone about this don't exist.

Way to stay right on top of things...

Originally Posted by EnnCee

Have you two even read the posts from the folks that are playing/testing this out and parsing the damage on the test server? I'm just stunned you pretend that several pages in this thread alone about this don't exist.

Way to stay right on top of things...

From what I have seen, there isn't any breaking to the class happening. I just do not agree with some of the views posted here in regards to the RK changes ... and much of it is sniveling.

Originally Posted by warriorpoetex

If they make any truly class-breaking adjustments, when it goes Live, please- find them ... help Turbine with some solid testing and I am certain that come the next few patches, they will have adjustments to correct the problem. There are many roads this conversation to take, but comments like DPSing like a Captain and healing like a Champion is just utterly ridiculous. I have my own personal views of the RK class, which have no place here ... but those who love the RK should feel lucky that the class even exists; there was a time when this game managed perfectly without them.

To addrees your points ...

First, if you honestly believe they will fix the areas where we were overnerfed in a reasonable amount of time ... you are an incurable optimist. We have posted about the problems in this patch. We have shown them that if they are truely interested in "keeping net effectiveness where it is now" as they said, then they clearly went too far. If nothing gets done before the patch is released, what makes you think they will fix things later.

Secondly, and this gets to the heart of the matter, it is clear that you object to the existance of the RK class as being lore breaking. I hope you realize that that opinion may affect your perception of these changes. Anything that reduces the number of people who play RK would be a good thing, right?

Originally Posted by Bradd

To addrees your points ...

First, if you honestly, believe they will fix the areas where we were overnerfed in a reasonable amount of time ... you are an incurable optimist. We have posted about the problems in this patch. We have shown them that if they are truely interested in "keeping net effectiveness where it is now" as they said, then they clearly went too far. If nothing gets done before the patch is released, what makes you think they will fix things later.

Secondly, and this gets to the heart of the matter, it is clear that you object to the existance of the RK class as being lore breaking. I hope you realize that that opinion may affect your perception of these changes. Anything that reduces the number of people who play RK would be a good thing, right?

For your first point, I am always hopeful; what keeps me playing. I do think there is just too much This Class vs That Class ... and this has truly only been a product of debate since the Moria expansion. This brings me to your second point ... this game had a perfect balance between the classes; adding the RK and the Warden was purely a marketing gimmick and not an addition to further balance the game dynamic. Do I wish they never added the classes? From a balance stand-point, yes ... from a Lore one, meh ... maybe a little. But in no way am I endeavoring nor hoping that these changes decrease the player-base or the good players love for one of the two stated classes.

And the term " net effectiveness" is a joke. A talented player will still be able to perform effectively. This is my biggest point ... this class is advanced not for its ability to be superior to other classes (no class should be this out of the box so to speak), but for its extra challenge to accomplish said goal.

Originally Posted by warriorpoetex

And the term " net effectiveness" is a joke.

The phrase "net effectiveness", which you call a joke, comes directly from ZC's Dev Diary. He said "the goals we set for lightning were to add variety into the skill rotation while keeping net effectiveness where it is now." If he honestly meant that, they will clearly have to tone down the nerfs to lightning.

Originally Posted by Bradd

The phrase "net effectiveness", which you call a joke, comes directly from ZC's Dev Diary. He said "the goals we set for lightning were to add variety into the skill rotation while keeping net effectiveness where it is now." If he honestly meant that, they will clearly have to tone down the nerfs to lightning.

Aye, I think Turbine did shoot themselves in the foot with their wording, which tends to get them in trouble often. I think they do need to just say it how it is, straight up and perhaps there will be less anger. I also think what he meant by the term I find a joke to even use "net effectiveness", is that the end result will still be the same. Meaning, while the numbers may not be as high, RKs will still be doing a lot of DPS and Healing, able to solo and be just fine in groups. Perhaps the term "net effectiveness" is being directed improperly as "net DPS".

Originally Posted by warriorpoetex

Aye, I think Turbine did shoot themselves in the foot with their wording, which tends to get them in trouble often. I think they do need to just say it how it is, straight up and perhaps there will be less anger. I also think what he meant by the term I find a joke to even use "net effectiveness", is that the end result will still be the same. Meaning, while the numbers may not be as high, RKs will still be doing a lot of DPS and Healing, able to solo and be just fine in groups. Perhaps the term "net effectiveness" is being directed improperly as "net DPS".

Note, he said the goal for Lightning was to keep the net effectiveness the same. If they had added some non-dps improvement to lightning, I would agree. If, for example, they had added a Lightning based buff, or a new lightning CC, then the effectiveness of Lightning might be the same even if dps were lower. But, no non-dps improvement was made to lightning, so dps is all he could have been refering to.

In other words, since the non-dps aspects of lightning were not improved, and Lightning dps was lowered, the net effectiveness of Lightning could not have remained the same.

Originally Posted by EnnCee

Have you two even read the posts from the folks that are playing/testing this out and parsing the damage on the test server? I'm just stunned you pretend that several pages in this thread alone about this don't exist.

Way to stay right on top of things...

Kindly point me to a single parse........

Originally Posted by GalateaOrea

Here's a shocking fact: Beta testers may not re-post their beta postings in Live. Uhn-uh. Violation of the beta NDA. A lot of players who have the goods have them because they are beta testers and have spent a good deal of time testing and responding to changes in the the beta forums. And I am not talking about Bullroarer.

So ease back.

And I haven't been talking about the Palantir Preview Program either. I am well aware that what happens there stays there. The vast majority of people posting their views (one way or the other) in this thread are referring to BR and not Palantir because they're not even allowed to say that they are members of that group.

So I won't ease back.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

Kindly point me to a single parse........

Because arguing with you is clearly pointless, this will be my last response to anything you put in this thread which you are clearly trying to derail. Rather than address the update, you are responding to responses and making personal attacks. You are here for the verbal combat, and not because you care at all about the class update.

And here is the response: There are parses. I and others have spent the time to make them, and find them, and share them. Because you are such a pain, I'll let you spend the time to find them. For all others, as long as the amount of PMs are reasonable, I'll point you in the direction of just a few of the comparison parses between live servers and beta tests.

Originally Posted by Uundamp

Because arguing with you is clearly pointless, this will be my last response to anything you put in this thread which you are clearly trying to derail. Rather than address the update, you are responding to responses and making personal attacks. You are here for the verbal combat, and not because you care at all about the class update.

And here is the response: There are parses. I and others have spent the time to make them, and find them, and share them. Because you are such a pain, I'll let you spend the time to find them. For all others, as long as the amount of PMs are reasonable, I'll point you in the direction of just a few of the comparison parses between live servers and beta tests.

How is asking for proof beyond the min/max math that everyone was quoting originally an attempt to derail?

I am not here for the "verbal combat", all I have asked for is rational thought and not the "doom and gloom" that instantly popped up -- well before anyone had a chance to actually take a look (in depth) on the server.

I've not had a single exchange with you, one way or the other, so why are you launching a personal attack against me?

Edit: I did go back and reread the entire thread -- I saw where you lambasted me for not having the same point of view as you. I guess that's just the kettle calling the pot black, isn't it?

Is it because I called out one member of this forum on his constant use of the "math" to prove his point and then when I asked for a parse he started talking about the all testing he had done but never showed any proof? If that's a personal attack, then I guess I'm guilty.

Originally Posted by Mousers

So you want to see numbers and say that because people didn't post an insane and probably useless set of numbers for most of us they didn't do it? I'm sure that at times people lie to others in life all the time, people lie to others on the internet ALL the time. Are the people that say that they have run the numbers on BR lying now? I can't say, I don't know them personally. BUT I can read the patch.... no sorry, THE DEV notes as to what's intended. To me, I can smell the nerfbat from here.

Maybe instead of staying on your high horse you might want to get down and do the same thing that the rest of the posters that don't agree with your point of view have done and read the Dev log for yourself and think about it. I'm sorry that you feel so strongly about your point of view that you have to attack others rather than stop to consider them. At this point that's all I'm getting from your comments here. So if the numbers would make you happy I hope someone posts them for you or bothers to go searching for the posts in the RK forums for you to go see. Otherwise, I hope that you take the time to go do some looking for the info before you keep attacking and claiming foul without anything to back your position up.

Fact remains is that apparently there's going to be no dps reduction but by making the class more... challenging and cumbersome from what the log has stated as "improvements", they are making the class less attractive to those that are comfortable with it now and to those that may want to make one later. You like the changes? Maybe they can make a server with all the nerfs and all the "lesser" classes you think this will make you more equal too and figure out how to call it "Kitty Island" in Sindarin.

Wow -- nice personal attack there. I've never said I like or dislike the changes. I have read the dev notes. There are going to be changes. But the whole "its the the end of the RK class as we know" hyperbole needs to stop.

Just to be perfectly clear -- I NEVER called anyone a liar. But why is it that when I ask for evidence beyond the theoretical math I'm the bad guy? People can do the "math" all day long, but how does it really translate to game play? That's all I asked for. Some rational thought and some solid testing to back it up. People claiming, "nerf" even before they had a chance to check it out are the real bad guys.

This isn't supposed to be about who can be the most vocal on the forums, its supposed to be about rational discourse of a complex subject. If I got snippy with anyone, it was because I was tired of the same "doom and gloom" argument being thrown out everytime any one had the tenacity to ask a rational question.

I have only seen one thread where anyone has attempted to devise a max DPS rotation for fire based on the new skills. That thread was full of epic win because proposals were made, feedback was given, and adjustments were made -- all the while knowing that they couldn't have all the answers because not everything is working on BR yet.

BUT, that's the only one. Every other thread has been all about the impending nerfbat and anyone who couldn't see it coming either didn't know how to play the class or wasn't an RK to begin with. I ask for some proof and I'm the bad guy. I appear to disagree that we're being nerfed and suddenly I don't know how to play my class.

The devs can't please everyone all the time. While I realize there is a very vocal group that are displeased with the changes as outlined, they do not represent the majority of players and I do personally think that for most, their enjoyment of the game will continue.

My horse isn't high, its just a pony -- but I'll ride it with my head held high.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

The devs can't please everyone all the time. While I realize there is a very vocal group that are displeased with the changes as outlined, they do not represent the majority of players and I do personally think that for most, their enjoyment of the game will continue.

My horse isn't high, its just a pony -- but I'll ride it with my head held high.

...and just how do you know that these posts 'do not represent the majority of players'? You just dismissed what we're saying by arguing we had no proof, no parsings, and now you claim to be among a majority: where is YOUR proof? ...just one of those unfounded observations you don't like, huh.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

Wow -- nice personal attack there. I've never said I like or dislike the changes. I have read the dev notes. There are going to be changes. But the whole "its the the end of the RK class as we know" hyperbole needs to stop.

Just to be perfectly clear -- I NEVER called anyone a liar. But why is it that when I ask for evidence beyond the theoretical math I'm the bad guy? People can do the "math" all day long, but how does it really translate to game play? That's all I asked for. Some rational thought and some solid testing to back it up. People claiming, "nerf" even before they had a chance to check it out are the real bad guys.

This isn't supposed to be about who can be the most vocal on the forums, its supposed to be about rational discourse of a complex subject. If I got snippy with anyone, it was because I was tired of the same "doom and gloom" argument being thrown out everytime any one had the tenacity to ask a rational question.

I have only seen one thread where anyone has attempted to devise a max DPS rotation for fire based on the new skills. That thread was full of epic win because proposals were made, feedback was given, and adjustments were made -- all the while knowing that they couldn't have all the answers because not everything is working on BR yet.

BUT, that's the only one. Every other thread has been all about the impending nerfbat and anyone who couldn't see it coming either didn't know how to play the class or wasn't an RK to begin with. I ask for some proof and I'm the bad guy. I appear to disagree that we're being nerfed and suddenly I don't know how to play my class.

The devs can't please everyone all the time. While I realize there is a very vocal group that are displeased with the changes as outlined, they do not represent the majority of players and I do personally think that for most, their enjoyment of the game will continue.

My horse isn't high, its just a pony -- but I'll ride it with my head held high.

Well, as far as all the doom and gloom, can I ask why exactly is a thread working through a fire build of use to those that didn't want a fire build, don't want to have to shift to a fire build and will not shift to a fire build? From my understanding, like everything else it has it's points and it has it's drawbacks. But given what I know of some of the drawbacks are, like continuing damage on some bosses will actually hurt the group more than the npc (Gaerdring comes to mind), the fire line might be good for someone playing in the Moors, but not as a valid raid spec. Further, given the comments about dots being wiped by a lot of mobs, it also sounds like it's power inefficient to begin with. So in order to be effective (in Moors) the fight has to be long, so that's good if the RK has healer and they are duo'ing a Reaver then eventually the RK will have the fight last long enough to hit his/her stride for overall levels of DPS (in a fire build that is).

So, I don't have the time or the inclination to go looking for the math posts, but if you want to continue on your pony, make sure your in the lead and not standing behind someone else on a horse.

But getting back to the doom and gloom, it's a game, yes, everyone here is well aware of it. Is it life ending? For this game title and some of their players, hey, if they aren't playing then some of them aren't paying. So, doom? Sure, folks are here asking for the powers that be listen to them. I went back the other day to read some of the other developer logs and apparently there are some developers that are listening (points to the log about the vault and the upcoming changes to it). Now, since there are some folks that are looking forward to the proposed changes I can gather that some don't mind it or perhaps are already in a fire build. Fair enough!

Here's a quote from the RK forums:

Originally Posted by Uundamp

I know that LOTRO isn't a democracy, but they do value player feedback. In order to avoid getting bogged down in arguments, and because I'm curious, I'm asking the players who visit the RK forums to start a poll. A _simple_ poll.

Yes/No Questions:

1. Do you want the RK class to receive an update?

2. Do you prefer the current RK and RK skills and equipment to the proposed November update RK skills and equipment?

I know it's much more complicated than a simple yes no... but very simply - do you think you'd prefer the current RK to the proposed RK? Yes/No? That's question Number 2.

3. Do you want the developers to hold off on their proposed changes (perhaps another month) to tweak them some more before releasing the proposed RK changes?


My answers:
1. Yes.
2. Unsure. I think Yes.
3. Yes.

Please, simple answers... I'll revisit this thread and put up a tally on this first post as time goes by.

TALLY OF ANSWERS:

Total Responses: 19 (Through Post #20)

1. 17 Yes 0 No (Yes means that you want RK to receive an update)
2. 13 Yes 4 No (Yes means that the current RK is better than the proposed patch to RK)
3. 15 Yes 2 No (Yes means that we want the proposed patch to be put off and further refined)

Choose not to respond: 2


THANKS TO ALL WHO PARTICIPATE! PLEASE RESPOND, THE MORE RESPONSES, THE BETTER THE POLL.

So, if you think that people are just blowing smoke over this, please feel free to do some homework on it more. People aren't happy, they're asking for the developer to stop and listen to them. We're sorry that you don't agree that this is needed. The RK community has spoken and yes, I have a horse, and I hope it's in front of you.

The RK is the Developer's Darling...and it continues to show. I have several friends who play RK's and can demonstrate the power that this class truly has.

It still saddens me to remember how badly the minstrel was nerfed to make room for the class to be at the top tier...and then the hunter and the champion.

It is the Dev's intention to have a solo class game with only the RK's....???

I'm happy with the changes, except the long heal induction. I hate those.

I am most worried about this at low levels (under 25).
Alot of the skills are not entirely fleshed out at these levels, and most of them don't even have their counterpart build up skills.

Messing with core skills like Mending Verse and Scribe's Spark, is likely going to have a real playability impact on lower level players (since they are some of the earliest skills).

Towards higher levels, I imagine players will just find a way to tweak traits, equipment, and battle formations to compensate.

I see the changes as necessary from Turbine's standpoint in regards to game and class balance. My opinions on the RK and the proposed changes:

1.) RK's should not be the primary healers, Minstrels should be and any upcoming Monstrel changes should reflect that imho. RK.s should be secondary healers and their heals should be HoT in nature, EotA skill does not reflect that and still needs a revamp/redo.

2.) RK's Lightning spec line is overpowered (and I say this as a RK) and needed to be nerfed. Fire line is where it should be imho and surprise surprise the changes agree... or actually for once I agree with Turbine on that one.

3.) RK's are over populated because they are overpowered in a balance and gameplay sense and the Players know it... that's why you can't spit ingame without hitting a RK..... and Turbine is doing what is necessary to keep the other classes just as needed and viable.

Well done Turbine, Well done.

(I don't say that often so mark it down. Yes I too am still tilting at Windmills I just am keeping to myself now and usually keeping my big mouth shut.)

Originally Posted by TimandZach

The RK is the Developer's Darling...and it continues to show.

If they nerf their Darling this bad, I would hate to see what they would do if they hated us.

I am not sure you really understand the effect of this patch. RKs were hit hard with the nerf bat ... we have less dps, less healing and less power efficiency.

Originally Posted by gardavil

I see the changes as necessary from Turbine's standpoint in regards to game and class balance...

Gardavil, if that was their intention and their vision for the class, they should have said that in the Dev Diary. If they were intentially nerfing our dps, healing and power efficiency (as we both suspect), they should have been honest about it and explained why it was necessary, instead of telling us they were keeping net effectiveness the same, and insulting our intelligence.

That said, I hope they were being honest and want to keep our effectiveness the same - and will reverse some of the nerfs so that remains true. (They can buff other classes if necessary in their "polish".)

Originally Posted by Bradd

Gardavil, if that was their intention and their vision for the class, they should have said that in the Dev Diary. If they were intentially nerfing our dps, healing and power efficiency (as we both suspect), they should have been honest about it and explained why it was necessary, instead of telling us they were keeping net effectiveness the same, and insulting our intelligence.

That said, I hope they were being honest and want to keep our effectiveness the same - and will reverse some of the nerfs so that remains true. (They can buff other classes if necessary in their "polish".)

I have been playing MMOs for a long time and I have read hundreds of posts by Devs in blogs and on forums concerning many MMOs. I have learned to "read the intent between the lines" in their statements to the Players.

In addition to what is literally stated in the Dev blog what I "read between the lines" is IMHO a honest admission that the RK is overpowered as compared to the other classes and therefore from a big picture class balance standpoint certain nerfs/changes to RK were necessary. My main character for the last several months has been a RK and I agree that the class is overpowered. I also agree that many many bugs exist that needed to be fixed and this changes addresses some of them (not all). This change is about the big picture of how the classes are used, how many of each class is used, which classes are not used right now and why. The RK class balance update really has more to do with other classes than with the RK class itself from my point of view.

The wording of the Dev Blog is simply an attempt to make the changes seem less threatening than many Players will see them as. It's just Public Relations. I feel that Zombie Columbus did a good job at being the messenger of some bad news for the RK Players and I really don't see any other way he could have written the blog without it sounding much worse.

Originally Posted by gardavil

The wording of the Dev Blog is simply an attempt to make the changes seem less threatening than many Players will see them as. It's just Public Relations.

Isn't that just saying that they are hoping we are not smart enough to realize we are neing nerfed?



Being honest with my myself and you, I acknowledge that certain changes were necessary. I think they went too far, but I agree we needed some downward tweaks. If they would have been honest and direct, and explained their vision in detail, most people would not be nearly as upset as they are.

Originally Posted by Bradd

Isn't that just saying that they are hoping we are not smart enough to realize we are neing nerfed?

No, they don't think we are stupid. They knew we would see through the PR speak. It was simply an attempt to soften the blow of the news that the chisel was going to cut the class instead of the Runestone.

They have learned to write Dev blogs in this fashion because of people like myself, and in how people like me respond to such changes. I alone gave them reason with how I responded to past changes to LotRO. Blame me if you wish to, I share at least some of the blame if there is any. And yes if they had been blunt and completely honest about WHY the changes were necessary the firestorm would be much worse because of Players like myself.

Under the circumstances, I believe Zombie Columbus wrote the Dev Blog the only way he could have.