Thread: Dev Diary Fedback: November Update Rune-keeper Changes

Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken

Being unable to swap chisels in combat completely kills this for me. I'm not interested in deciding before combat if I want to utilize my 10% power reduction skill or if I'd prefer lower resists. I'm not interested in deciding if I want slightly larger heals or more reliable corruption removal and being locked in for the duration.

Let us actually swap chisels in combat and you'll have a great addition. Sustaining Bolt will actually get used, I'll enjoy the riflers yet still be able to clear corruptions as effectively as I can today (such as that is), and I'll feel there was actually some variety added to my game play.

Did you miss the part where ZC said they want to make this advance class a little more advanced? Having to make choices before the battle begins is one of those things that does that. You actually have to think about how you want to accomplish whatever task lays before you.

Thread after thread after thread of people quoting the "math" and claiming it all adds up to a nerf when they haven't even had a chance to really explore all the changes. Sheesh, in the end, its just a game.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

Did you miss the part where ZC said they want to make this advance class a little more advance? Having to make choices before the battle begins is one of those things that does that. You actually have to think about how you want to accomplish whatever task lays before you.

Thread after thread after thread of people quoting the "math" and claiming it all adds up to a nerf when they haven't even had a chance to really explore all the changes. Sheesh, in the end, its just a game.

The changes are up on the public test server. Many of us have tested the changes, and run the math, and see a substantial reduction in dps. While it may be true that, if we change how we play, spec and gear ... and play absolutely perfectly ... we may be able to come close (perhaps 95%) to our prior dps. In reality, that certainly feels like a nerf. If you make the class harder to play, and say you have to play it absolutely perfectly just to approach your previous dps, that is a practical nerf for the vast majority of players.

Also, what is the reason for all these changes (if not to nerf us)? To be blunt, the players are the best judge of what is fun. Most RKs like the class as it is now - why change it?

Simply put, what is the point of playing an advanced difficult class, that you have to play absolutely perfectly, just to get to 90% of the dps a Hunter (easy class) can do?

Originally Posted by Bradd

I agree. Before, we were good at healing OR good at dps (but not both at the same time). Now, we will be pretty good at healing AND pretty good at dps (at the same time). They are turning us into a hybrid class - not top tier dps or healing, but pretty good at both (and able to both at the same time). I have seen, in WoW, how welcome hybrid classes are in raids.

We will do great solo, and OK in small fellowships. But, after these changes go live, min/max raid leaders will cut the number of RKs in their raid. A Hunter will dps much better and a Minstrel will heal much better.

How you possibly come to this conclusion is beyond me. When you're healing and you throw down a WoF, your attunement will be affected. This means you have to make a decision about whether or not you want to lower your healing output to do some DPS. If you choose NOT to do this, then your healing output will NOT be affected in the least -- you'll still be really good at healing.

Stop making assumptions based on an insufficent data set.

Originally Posted by Bradd

The changes are up on the public test server. Many of us have tested the changes, and run the math, and see a substantial reduction in dps. While it may be true that, if we change how we play, spec and gear ... and play absolutely perfectly ... we may be able to come close (perhaps 95%) to our prior dps. In reality, that certainly feels like a nerf. If you make the class harder to play, and say you have to play it absolutely perfectly just to approach your previous dps, that is a practical nerf for the vast majority of players.

Also, what is the reason for all these changes (if not to nerf us)? To be blunt, the players are the best judge of what is fun. Most RKs like the class as it is now - why change it?

Simply put, what is the point of playing an advanced difficult class, that you have to play absolutely perfectly, just to get to 90% of the dps a Hunter (easy class) can do?

They don't make changes just to nerf classes -- that would be an incredibly stupid business model. And you don't have to play absolutely perfect, you just haven't had the time to fully explore all the changes and you are basing your assumptions on a model that you settled for before you ever had a chance to check them out on BR.

People play the advance class for the challenge -- if you want easy DPS, go play a hunter or a champ.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

How you possibly come to this conclusion is beyond me. When you're healing and you throw down a WoF, your attunement will be affected. This means you have to make a decision about whether or not you want to lower your healing output to do some DPS. If you choose NOT to do this, then your healing output will NOT be affected in the least -- you'll still be really good at healing.

Stop making assumptions based on an insufficent data set.

I am not referring to Master of Writs at all. This has nothing to do with attunement, but instead with the nerfs.

Unless the changes we have not see are buffs (which would be counter to everything else we have seen so far), our net sustained healing is nerfed. Our bread and butter healing spell, Mending Verse, had is power cost increased. Memorable Prose, which reduced the power cost of Mending Verse was also nerfed.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

They don't make changes just to nerf classes -- that would be an incredibly stupid business model. And you don't have to play absolutely perfect, you just haven't had the time to fully explore all the changes and you are basing your assumptions on a model that you settled for before you ever had a chance to check them out on BR.

People play the advance class for the challenge -- if you want easy DPS, go play a hunter or a champ.

I have seen classes nerfed in other games as a result of whines from other classes, just to be reversed a year later when the Devs determined they went too far.

Many of us have actually tested the changes. No one has matched their pre-nerf dps. The math simply precludes reaching your pre-nerf dps. We have to play absolutely perfectly (which isn't likely) just to get to 95% of our pre-nerf dps.

I don't want to play an easy class. I just don't want there to be a penalty to playing an advanced class. If an easy dps class pumps out more dps than an advanced dps class played perfectly - there is a design flaw.

So a 1-page re-hash of the patch notes is now a dev diary?

Not all the changes listed are even on the test server to be...y'no- "tested" and you have them locked in without any community feedback.

Nice work.

Quote from the Producers Letter October 2010:
http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...r-october-2010

Listen to your players. Players vote by buying or playing content or items they like the best, and by giving direct feedback through the forums, customer service, and chat in game. By staying tuned in on how players are feeling about the game, devs know better what to add, what to fix, and how to ensure that players keep having fun.

How about that "staying tuned in" part ?

Originally Posted by bornwolf

Quote from the Producers Letter October 2010:
http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...r-october-2010

Listen to your players. Players vote by buying or playing content or items they like the best, and by giving direct feedback through the forums, customer service, and chat in game. By staying tuned in on how players are feeling about the game, devs know better what to add, what to fix, and how to ensure that players keep having fun.

How about that "staying tuned in" part ?

They did listen ... to the Creeps, Hunters and Minstrels demanding RK nerfs.

So are we going to see all of these changes on bullroarer ?
Or is this going to be a "November surprise" for Rune Keepers.

How many turbine points for just the fire line fixes? I don't want to spend any points on these other 'buffs'

After playing this game for over 3 years, I can't help but feel that there must be some Devs that play creep side and every time they get spanked by a certain class, they decide this class needs to be nerfed. It really just makes you feel that those of us enjoy playing the RK class, like the hunters and burgs before them, are now are being punished.

Look out wardens, next time you kill that Dev creep... I am sure your nerf is next...

I see lots of player responses. Perhaps we are upset enough to warrant a PR or Dev response. Does Turbine care about the playerbase enough to respond?

This will get missed, so I'll put it in caps and not hide it in a wall of text:

A MAJORITY OF YOUR RK PLAYERS ARE FRUSTRATED AND ANGRY. THE PROPOSED UPDATE IS EXTREMELY UNSATISFACTORY! PLEASE, PLEASE TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND TO US, AND EXPLAIN THE CHANGES OR TWEAK THEM IN A MANNER THAT WILL BE FAIR TO ALL LOTRO PLAYERS, AND IN KEEPING WITH TURBINE'S VISION FOR LOTRO.

THIS IS A GOLDEN CHANCE FOR TURBINE TO SHOW HOW THEY ARE BETTER THAN OTHER MMO COMPANIES. THE STONEWALLING BY TURBINE IS PERHAPS MORE FRUSTRATING THAN THE PROPOSED RK CHANGES. PLEASE REWARD OUR MONEY AND FAITH IN YOU - BE COURTEOUS TO US, YOUR PAYING CUSTOMERS. WE DESERVE A RESPONSE!

Thanks for doing more than just posting the patch notes. I like seeing why the changes are being made. Also, the changes look fun, I'm excited about more variety!

It is illogical to get excited about all the pretty new toys, if in reality you end up unequivocally weaker.

Think of it this way ... I tell my secretary ... I am cutting your pay 10%, but now I am paying you with these pretty checks with rainbows on them. Should she be thrilled about the rainbows? She loves pretty rainbows. Or, should she be upset about the pay cut?

My point? Focus on what is important and don't get distracted by the pretty rainbows. Sustaining Bolt is the perfect example. They took away the free -10% power from Tale of the Storm, and then added it to an overpriced spell that is only effectively usuable if you equip a certain chisel (requiring you to give up 720+ Penetrate Resistance). That is not a positive change.

Time to play my LM. At least the November patches advance that class.

btw, rks are very weak on group heals, should get a buff on that

If I was a F2Per, I sure wouldn't buy this class now. Good thing I enjoy playing different classes. I can shelve the ones that suffer irreparably from the nerf bat and move on to others. My RK will definitely be sitting on a shelf now. Hope they'll undo the damage one day as it can be a really fun class to play.

Sadly, a good friend of mine may be leaving the game altogether over these RK changes since RK is her main. Class nerfs are demoralizing. Not sure why the devs don't get that yet.

Originally Posted by Ryanael

Time to play my LM. At least the November patches advance that class.

I'm thinking the exact same thing: either that or playing some other game after the patch...O.o

You know, up until this point I haven't been willing to bring this up, but since it has been, which forum do I go to whine and complain to get a free 30 second player stun on my Minstrel? How about a power drain that restores my power and can't be taken off with a pot or a skill. Maybe my hunter can get an infintely and instantly repeatable fire dot attack that has a 40 yard range?

Come on Turbine, the people that give up their time to play the creeps we all love to kill and hate and gripe over can't be the only ones that you ever listen to. Seriously, have you even tried to go out on a Minstrel and take out a Defiler solo? I mean that's the direct comparison class I believe? So here you have an opportunity to listen to the rest of your player base. Now I'm probably going to say something that'll be vastly unpopular with the folks that you've apparently been listening to but here goes.

If you only listen to your hardcore players and those that want their PVP toons to be able to solo 3 or 4 free peoples players, then eventually the percentage of your hardcore players will go from whatever 5 to 10% it probably is to a higher number.

Why would this be bad?

It's simple, I've no issue with the RK DPS, I've had a Champion when they moaned and whined and it got nerfed, I've had a Hunter when folks moaned and whined about them too. You know what? I can still play my hunter but I don't because I like my Warden and Minstrel more at the moment. The fact of the matter is that the majority of the player base probably has never considered that the RK class is OP or whatever reason that you think you're doing this adjustment or "improvement". They in all likelyhood just want to play. BUT... you start getting folks that no longer play 50% of your additional classes that you've added, they may start to wonder if they're next. Worse will be those that leave because their friends aren't playing because the class the WANT to play and were HAPPY with has been reduced.

Increasing the cost on a healing spell is ludicrous to be honest, I've gone to great lengths to fix power issues on my Warden and my Minstrel and I can say that in raids I've seen the RK's having the same issues. Basically that means that if RK's are the only healing class that you can get to heal in all likelyhood unless they play perfect and so does everyone else, folks will start dying before boss fights are done. Reducing some skills effectiveness to make another skill more attractive because it's not being used? The brainfarts are strong with this "improvement". People will leave, and that's what I am getting at. I don't know what percentage your hardcore players are that buy TP are, but I can assure you that a majority of players that do buy TP are firmly in your casual player base. That means that people that don't have the time or the desire to learn some rediculous set of skills and carry extra gear will either move to another class and be out of end game or not even purchase the RK class to begin and further some will likely leave.

Well, long point short is that really, how much will it take to realise that if people aren't playing, then people aren't paying. So listen to those that don't mind the RK the way it is and those that love it the way it is and work more with the player base that plays them, rather than those that can't stand the "Shock" of dying to them.

Originally Posted by Uundamp

I see lots of player responses. Perhaps we are upset enough to warrant a PR or Dev response. Does Turbine care about the playerbase enough to respond?

This will get missed, so I'll put it in caps and not hide it in a wall of text:

A MAJORITY OF YOUR RK PLAYERS ARE FRUSTRATED AND ANGRY. THE PROPOSED UPDATE IS EXTREMELY UNSATISFACTORY! PLEASE, PLEASE TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND TO US, AND EXPLAIN THE CHANGES OR TWEAK THEM IN A MANNER THAT WILL BE FAIR TO ALL LOTRO PLAYERS, AND IN KEEPING WITH TURBINE'S VISION FOR LOTRO.

THIS IS A GOLDEN CHANCE FOR TURBINE TO SHOW HOW THEY ARE BETTER THAN OTHER MMO COMPANIES. THE STONEWALLING BY TURBINE IS PERHAPS MORE FRUSTRATING THAN THE PROPOSED RK CHANGES. PLEASE REWARD OUR MONEY AND FAITH IN YOU - BE COURTEOUS TO US, YOUR PAYING CUSTOMERS. WE DESERVE A RESPONSE!

I suggest then that you just find another game ... Turbine never breaks a class just for the sake of doing so. RKs are a powerful class ... and from what I am reading on many of these posts ... many of you feel it is an entitled class that should have everything they want because it is labeled as an "Advanced" class? Should it be better than a so-called Beginner classes such as a Champion (which is a huge challenge to truly master) or the more intermediate classes like the Hunter? They have made some great changes ... I really doubt you will be worse off overall. From what I see, you will be stronger solo ... and just fine in groups. You can DPS and heal now, who else can say that ... no one. Not at the levels you can ... try being a Champion with zero defense, armour that really matters little and a healing penalty to even do what they are supposed to do. Or a Hunter, who really has power issues. RKs and probably Wardens are the two most polished classes in the game ...

Originally Posted by warriorpoetex

I suggest then that you just find another game ... Turbine never breaks a class just for the sake of doing so. RKs are a powerful class ... and from what I am reading on many of these posts ... many of you feel it is an entitled class that should have everything they want because it is labeled as an "Advanced" class? Should it be better than a so-called Beginner classes such as a Champion (which is a huge challenge to truly master) or the more intermediate classes like the Hunter? They have made some great changes ... I really doubt you will be worse off overall. From what I see, you will be stronger solo ... and just fine in groups. You can DPS and heal now, who else can say that ... no one. Not at the levels you can ... try being a Champion with zero defense, armour that really matters little and a healing penalty to even do what they are supposed to do. Or a Hunter, who really has power issues. RKs and probably Wardens are the two most polished classes in the game ...

we ALREADY DPS and heal, and if traited for it, at the same time...and you know WHY you can bring up the champ like that in this thread? They already nerfed the devil out of them a long time ago...you just want the RK's to float around in that boat with you. They used not to have that healing penalty (if I remember correctly). Yeppers...that nerf made you REAL happy with a champ, huh?

Originally Posted by warriorpoetex

I suggest then that you just find another game ... Turbine never breaks a class just for the sake of doing so. RKs are a powerful class ... and from what I am reading on many of these posts ... many of you feel it is an entitled class that should have everything they want because it is labeled as an "Advanced" class? Should it be better than a so-called Beginner classes such as a Champion (which is a huge challenge to truly master) or the more intermediate classes like the Hunter? They have made some great changes ... I really doubt you will be worse off overall. From what I see, you will be stronger solo ... and just fine in groups. You can DPS and heal now, who else can say that ... no one. Not at the levels you can ... try being a Champion with zero defense, armour that really matters little and a healing penalty to even do what they are supposed to do. Or a Hunter, who really has power issues. RKs and probably Wardens are the two most polished classes in the game ...

Yes, the Warden's are strong, but I still can't take damage the same from some sources like a Guardian can. Yes the RK's can heal and DPS at the same time, so can a Minstrel. Lets address the comment about entitlement. As previous posters have commented, a YEAR ago, this class was exactly where Turbine wanted it. This "update" is not intended to be a nerf, DPS is supposed to stay the same. But people that can do the math on the DPS have stated that they have been on BR and found it nerfed. EXACTLY what the dev log says that this is NOT supposed to do.

You know, having all this info and not playing an RK I can honestly say that I don't think that they are making this ruckus over a sense of entitlement. I think that when someone says to you that the apple in front of you doesn't have any worms in it, you shouldn't take a bite out of one and be staring at half a worm. I think that when a manufacturer tells you something is one way and then turns around and puts out something differntly that you have a right to voice your displeasure. Yes it's a game and yes it's something that's now free, but at the same time it's not. Some of us have paid for it in the past and some folks will still pay for it and they should get what's advertised.

If you think this is about entitlement, really, I think you're in the wrong game.

No one, I know of, is asking for RK to have more dps than other classes (even easy classes). We just don't believe it is right for them to nerf us to the point where we are weaker than other (easy) classes (especially when they are telling us we are not being nerfed).

Think of it this way ... Lets say they are completely honest on the store website after this patch and describe RK as "Rune-keeper is an advanced class that is difficult to master. If you play it perfectly, you will be almost as effective as the less advanced classes". I wonder how many they will sell?

RKs are a good well-balanced class before this "polish" patch. Post post, RKs are weaker and less focused. Somewhere the ball was dropped. They have polished us so much, they have taken away the luster.

Im never one who likes nerfs or major adjustments in any class since i play them all.You have messed over my Hunter,Champ,Guard,Mini,Burg,W arden,Capt.,and soon L.M.&R.K..With fancy fixes that you say isnt working as intended BUT at the same time we get accustomed to the said not working as intended structure and feel that the nerf bat hits too damn hard.People actually stop playing certain classes because of your fancy fixes with nerf bat balances.
Tell ya what il make this an easy one for ya.Why not actually fix the trait bonus lines we already have on the R.K.and see if the general R.K. public feel about actually having a NONBROKEN class to play that actually works and functions correctly instead of adding all this b.s. fluff thats going to be bugged and not work as intended.Plain and simple fix what we have on the R.K. before adding the fluff.

Originally Posted by Meaner

Tell ya what il make this an easy one for ya.Why not actually fix the trait bonus lines we already have on the R.K.and see if the general R.K. public feel about actually having a NONBROKEN class to play that actually works and functions correctly instead of adding all this b.s. fluff thats going to be bugged and not work as intended.Plain and simple fix what we have on the R.K. before adding the fluff.

They can't just fix it. Attunement is too confusing for them. They have no clue how fix the code to make the original bonuses work. If they could, we would've had it fixed long time ago. It was easier for them to just keep quiet about it for two years and then slap a 3% run speed on it instead of giving us a real set bonus.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

They don't make changes just to nerf classes -- that would be an incredibly stupid business model. And you don't have to play absolutely perfect, you just haven't had the time to fully explore all the changes and you are basing your assumptions on a model that you settled for before you ever had a chance to check them out on BR.

People play the advance class for the challenge -- if you want easy DPS, go play a hunter or a champ.

Actually, they nerf classes all the time. So it must make some sort of business sense or they wouldn't do it. The problem though is not when they make nerfs. The problem is when they make a nerf and then pat you on the head and tell you it really isn't one. Now that is insulting. Trying to hide a nerf by requiring an extra skill and a new item that oh so conveniently can be found in the LOTRO Store is also insulting. Dev thoughts, " Hmmm, so I need to give them a new skill, they have to get nerfed and we have been told by the suits that we want store sales so.... " I sometimes wonder if these guys think we are all idiots or something.

The class isn't 'advanced' because of the number of buttons required to play it. It is advanced because of the forethought required to play it and play it well. You had to see what was coming and be proactive, not reactive. At least that is what attracted me to it. This seeming Hybrid mess though is just icky.

Originally Posted by Bradd

RKs are a good well-balanced class before this "polish" patch. Post post, RKs are weaker and less focused. Somewhere the ball was dropped. They have polished us so much, they have taken away the luster.

This I agree with and is what puzzles me most about what has been done. I really can understand a 5% nerf to DPS if their math said that it was too over the top for what ever reason they make those determinations. It has happened before and when ZC explained it, folks grumbled a bit but then lived with it. But this "hiding" of nerfs doesn't make sense to me. The watering down of what made the RK an RK, just doesn't make sense, not unless they are doing it because they figure the 'new' people will like it more and buy it that way.

Originally Posted by fenwe

This I agree with and is what puzzles me most about what has been done. I really can understand a 5% nerf to DPS if their math said that it was too over the top for what ever reason they make those determinations. It has happened before and when ZC explained it, folks grumbled a bit but then lived with it. But this "hiding" of nerfs doesn't make sense to me. The watering down of what made the RK an RK, just doesn't make sense, not unless they are doing it because they figure the 'new' people will like it more and buy it that way.

This!

And... a short response to the rude comments earlier (not directed at the poster I just quoted): A suggestion that I go play another game? Why don't you go play another game! I'm a paying customer, and I'm joining with other paying customers who are unsatisfied with changes to the product that turbine is selling.

Additionally, your attempt at a logical response to my request for Dev and PR response from Turbine is a failure. You don't address my concerns, you simply toss off about champions and other QQs. To compare a champ to an RK is the proverbial apples and oranges comparison. Please don't be so obtuse.

This update, as said previously by so many, is a mistake. It takes a class that was good at DPS or Healing (something no other class could do) without being a hybrid, and hybridizes the class into a generic mixing of the two roles.

Why? To sell more "rifflers" in the turbine store? How about this... add the rifflers and stuff, but leave what the RK already has in terms of skills and power. And add your new skills on top of that. And fix the trait lines.

Originally Posted by Bradd

Think of it this way ... Lets say they are completely honest on the store website after this patch and describe RK as "Rune-keeper is an advanced class that is difficult to master. If you play it perfectly, you will be almost as effective as the less advanced classes". I wonder how many they will sell?

As a new player, this is an excellent quote to summerize what I see this patch doing.

I just subscribed to LOTRO a couple months ago. Recently got my RK to 65. I do not know alot. But when running with a kin hunter, I cannot pull aggro off him unless I crit with EC, and running with a kin guardian, he has watched me die when we quested, while he lived. We are powerful when things go well, but squishy when things do not, seems to be what most kin think of RK's. Heard none of them tell us we were OP, not even the hunters. If we are OP why are there only 3 50+ RK's among dozens of active players in my kin? There are a lot of hunters in this game.

Having spent 5 years playing WoW, I finally needed change and I was impressed with the thoughtful design of the classes and quests in LOTRO. However, apparently even Blizzard gives better feedback and much more warning to proposed significant class changes than Turbine. The RK community was notified at the last minute of something that will go live in days or a couple weeks. I have seen at least 4 threads from RK's, many pages long, without one response from a Dev. Many of the questions and opinions where posted from obviously long time and end game RK's, not newbs like me.

As a newbe, I count on reading the forums and seeing intelligent discussion between the developers and experienced players (and yes, I can figure out who they are) about class changes. I learn more about the class that way.

Not one Turbine Dev response. This last minute notification of significant class changes and lack of response from Turbine, more than the proposed changes, is what troubles me.

This does not seem right. Is this how this company always operates?

I think SRT8 has hit the nail on the head. It's not just the changes, though I am not particularly pleased with many of them. It's the extreme lack of communication about them and the apparent failure to listen to any of the feedback from RKs playing the class on BR or in live.

If there had been dialogue and the devs had said look, for an advanced class, it's too easy to get top tier dps with lightning compared to the so-called easier classes, so we are making it possible to keep dps at a top level but making it harder to do so, I may not have been that happy, but I would have understood. If they had said lightning was supposed to be all about chance and the damage to be inconsistent but we're finding it is too consistent, again, understandable.

The changes to fire at least indicate the problem with DoT wipes are recognized and addressed, not with big changes but with one skill that will help us deal with a common problem in raids and instances. MoW is a wonderful skill, and it will help survivability. But it fundamentally changes the nature of RKs and enables us to bypass attunement, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see changes to make it less powerful coming up.

Healing is for me even more disappointing than the changes to lightning. All the changes move us away from being an effective HoT healers and try to force us to use a skill that endgame healing RKs feel does not fit the basic strategies and style of an effective RK healer. Even the healing oriented consummable tries to make EftA more popular. Forcing us to rely on EftA moves us away from proactive healing and toward reactive healing, and the long induction undermines our HoTs, which have been weakened by the changes to MV. All of the comments about the problems with long inductions in HoT based healing have apparently fallen on deaf ears.

And while the chisels and rifflers are potentially a nice addition, again somehow the devs failed to notice that corruption removal is major endgame role. And all of the discussion and explanation of the need for effective corruption removal from players has received only a "maybe we'll do something to Final Words at some point in the future". But really, had the devs been communicating with the players all along, this would never have been missed.

The lack of communication and interaction in the process of deciding on the changes (which seem quite unlikely to be modified except in minor ways give the dev diary) indicate to me a fundamental disconnect between the devs and the players. Not at all typical of Turbine in my experience.

After logging into test again just a few minutes ago, I'm finding Epic of the Ages still unchanged from live. The "new and improved" 4 trait set bonus to fix the 2 year broken line is still broken. New 3% runspeed isn't there and the Sustaining Bolt description of -1500% induciton is obviously not working.

I'd really like to think Zombie Colombus is so swamped with other projects that he has no time to respond to THIS community posted thread on HIS work nor the thread HE started in the RK forums to improve communication. There is just something wrong here.....

Davea

Originally Posted by EnnCee

we ALREADY DPS and heal, and if traited for it, at the same time...and you know WHY you can bring up the champ like that in this thread? They already nerfed the devil out of them a long time ago...you just want the RK's to float around in that boat with you. They used not to have that healing penalty (if I remember correctly). Yeppers...that nerf made you REAL happy with a champ, huh?

"They already nerfed the devil out of them a long time ago...."

If I recall correctly the only recent change to the champion class besides a new skill was the -30% healing while in fervour. I don't remember any "nerfing the devil" out of champions. If you now cant tank end-game raid bosses while in fervour, guess what, you're not supposed to! If you ask me fervour is still OP, I've fervour tanked SG HM numerous times, which if you ask me should not be possible or nearly so easy. Champions are fine where they are right now, reduced healing in a DPS stance is not a gimp, in fact with a good tank it doesn't reallly effect you at all. If you cant tank everything in fervour then use glory.... thats what its there for.

On topic about the RK changes though, I personally do not have a lvl 65 RK, but I was talking to a good RK friend and he was saying that he personally thought the RK changes were ok. When I mentioned that RKs on the forums were saying the changes were a nerf, he said that forum RKs are... eh, well never mind

A Champion (with a "RK friend" that doesn't post for himself) appauding RK nerfs. That is shocking.

Any RK that doesn't see that we are being nerfed does not understand the class.

That said, I acknowledge that not all RKs will be upset about the changes ... RKs that don't mind a 5-10% nerf to dps, decreased power efficiency while healing, and Mending Verse being more of a small direct heal than an HoT ... will probably have no problem with this patch. RKs that want to be a hybrid ... pretty good at dps and pretty good at healing (but not great at either) ... and able to do both at the same time ... will love this patch.

Originally Posted by Bradd

Any RK that doesn't see that we are being nerfed does not understand the class.

I remember when you first joined and with less than 30 days of playing time you had already jumped on the "fire RKs are nerfed" bandwagon because you couldn't solo effectively while traited fire.

I recall you jumping on the "RKs are being nerfed -- the math proves it" bandwagon even before you had a chance to check it out on BR.

Just because you have a habit of jumping to conclusions without all the facts, don't make the mistake of thinking that anyone that doesn't agree with you, "doesn't understand the class".

Originally Posted by Feraxks

I remember when you first joined and with less than 30 days of playing time you had already jumped on the "fire RKs are nerfed" bandwagon because you couldn't solo effectively while traited fire.

I recall you jumping on the "RKs are being nerfed -- the math proves it" bandwagon even before you had a chance to check it out on BR.

Just because you have a habit of jumping to conclusions without all the facts, don't make the mistake of thinking that anyone that doesn't agree with you, "doesn't understand the class".

You must have me mistaken with someone else. I have never traited fire and don't remember fire being nerfed. I have tested the changes, like many other people. No one has parsed less than a 5% drop in dps (as the math predicted). Many people (like the poster above), have seen a 10% drop.

No one has jumped to conclusions. The nerfs are evident.

Originally Posted by Bradd

A Champion (with a "RK friend" that doesn't post for himself) appauding RK nerfs. That is shocking.

Any RK that doesn't see that we are being nerfed does not understand the class.

That said, I acknowledge that not all RKs will be upset about the change... RKs that don't mind a 5-10% nerf to dps, decreased power efficiency while healing, and Mending Verse being more of a small direct heal than an HoT ... will probably have no problem with this patch. RKs that want to be a hybrid ... pretty good at dps and pretty good at healing (but not great at either) ... and able to do both at the same time ... will love this patch.

I've noticed that people posting here who support the nerf, non-RKs and Rks alike, are focusing on the FoS dps nerf for the most part. IMO the nerf to dps is the least upsetting thing about the update. The changes that alter the actual nature of the class (MV, EftA, MoW) and the additions that only serve to put us back to where we were prior to the update (SB replacing ToS) are far far worse.

Personally, I'm fine with 5% nerf to FoS dps. My RK is maxed out so I doubt i will notice the difference. Those with average/decent gear will sure feel it though.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

Just because you have a habit of jumping to conclusions without all the facts, don't make the mistake of thinking that anyone that doesn't agree with you, "doesn't understand the class".

I am honestly not trying to get involved into the DPS argument one way or another. I don't epeen about DPS. I am curious though if you have run CSTATS that contradict the 5-7% dropped 'claim' to DPS?

My motives for posting are based along the lines of the changes to the RK class as regards to healing and the new ability to contribute DPS and Healing by Writs, which I believe both destroys the original class concept and will lead to a whole host of nerfs because at that point an RK really will be able to do both roles simultaneous, if not nearly as well in either, which is a very slippery slope to try to balance.

I liked the majority of the LM changes announced, but these are pretty horrible.

1) Healing: EftA is almost unusable in many situations due to having to get off the long induction. For example, the drake in Ened. which drops fire on every group member every 5 seconds or so. Good luck getting off a EftA between having to move out of the fire. Or the many encounters where there are group-wide stuns/disarms/silences that break the inductions. Or the many encounters (like warg riders) where a mob will turn away from it's current aggro target just to interrupt an induction. For it to be viable, cut the base induction by about half (with an equivalent power/healing cost) not as a recast, but as a base.
2) Fire: Too many mobs reset and wipe dots for a dps line that is based nearly totally on dots to be viable. Also, you have mechanics like the Maze where having dots up at times are very dangerous as they can quickly heal the mobs to full. Until you fix the mechanics and make dots viable, fire will lag. The bandaid of essay of flame is laughable. 6 second induction? See the above about why long inductions are horrible. If you have a long timer and high power cost, you shouldn't have a long induction in addition to that.
3) Lightning: Just plain nerfs here. Damage nerfs. Power nerfs. Making the rotation more complex. Etc.

Originally Posted by fenwe

I am honestly not trying to get involved into the DPS argument one way or another. I don't epeen about DPS. I am curious though if you have run CSTATS that contradict the 5-7% dropped 'claim' to DPS?

My motives for posting are based along the lines of the changes to the RK class as regards to healing and the new ability to contribute DPS and Healing by Writs, which I believe both destroys the original class concept and will lead to a whole host of nerfs because at that point an RK really will be able to do both roles simultaneous, if not nearly as well in either, which is a very slippery slope to try to balance.

You've caught me......I haven't run CSTATS to determine whether or not I see a drop, much like I doubt that any of the proponents of the "they've nerfed us" group have done it to support their claims. I do not have access to all the new chisels and rifflers, so I do not feel that I can make a good apples to apples comparison between live and BR.

Please note that I have never claimed they the devs haven't nerfed us, I have only maintained that doing the "math" never lives up to actual game play and that until more than one or two uber RKs have access to all the new toys, there's no way to KNOW what the real effects of the changes will be.

I do disagree strongly with the idea that they are making us more of a hybrid class. The ability to use a DPS writ while healing or a healing writ while DPSing does not make us a hybrid class. From my perspective, all it does is give us options. You don't have to use WoF while healing, but its there if you want it and by choosing to use it you know your healing output will go down. Same thing with decided what chisel/riffler to use before the battle begins -- just more options.

I guess the best argument I can bring against the, "you will have to play perfectly to see the same DPS you had before" line of reasoning is that when you use the "math" to prove the so-called DPS nerf -- that's also a perfect scenerio. You would have to be hitting the max possible everytime on the live servers and compare that against hitting the max possible everytime on BR to see what the difference is. Since both cases are truly theoretical (because of all the variable in gameplay), how can you use that as an argument that DPS has been nerfed? Neither can be achieved, so it can't be used as a valid argument -- that's why actual game play trumps the "math" everytime.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

Please note that I have never claimed they the devs haven't nerfed us, I have only maintained that doing the "math" never lives up to actual game play and that until more than one or two uber RKs have access to all the new toys, there's no way to KNOW what the real effects of the changes will be.

Then, since many people have parsed the difference between live and test (using all the new items), and all have parsed at least a 5% drop. Many have parsed more than a 10% drop. That should satisfy you that the nerfs are not just theoretical.

I can't honestly believe anyone could look at these changes and not see they were intentionally nerfing us.

Originally Posted by fenwe

I am honestly not trying to get involved into the DPS argument one way or another. I don't epeen about DPS. I am curious though if you have run CSTATS that contradict the 5-7% dropped 'claim' to DPS?

My motives for posting are based along the lines of the changes to the RK class as regards to healing and the new ability to contribute DPS and Healing by Writs, which I believe both destroys the original class concept and will lead to a whole host of nerfs because at that point an RK really will be able to do both roles simultaneous, if not nearly as well in either, which is a very slippery slope to try to balance.

No one has parsed anything to contradict the nerf. I find that when some people can't attack your argument logically, they attack you. When he started attacking me instead of my position, I realized he had no counter-argument.

To address your second statement ... while I do not think the nerf to Lightning dps is warrented, I agree the other changes are more disconcerting. Most RKs do not want their healing to change from HoT based to direct heals. Most do not want to be forced into long induction spells. Regarding Master of Writs, most RKs prefer to be top tier dps and top tier healing (but not at the same time), rather than pretty good healing and pretty good dps at the same time. Based on my experience in other games, once we can heal and dps at the same time, the nerfs crys will become louder and louder.

Overall, it feels like they do not like how we are playing, and nerfing things to make us play in a certain way. We are relying too much on Scribe’s Spark, so ythey nerf it 15%. We rely too much on Mending Verse, and don’t cast Epic of the Ages as much as they think we should, so think nerf Mending Verse and buff Epic of the Ages. We are speccing Lightning in raids instead of Fire, so they nerf Lightning so that it will be too weak to use in raids. We prefer short inductions spells over long induction spells, so they change things to try to force us to use the long induction spells. To some extent, I feel we are being pushed into playing in a way most RKs do not want to play.