Thread: Dev Diary Fedback: November Update Rune-keeper Changes

The Rune-keeper currently sits at top tier in both damage and healing output. Because of this, the goals we have set for this update did not focus on increasing or decreasing net effectiveness, but on adding variety, customization and more dynamic skill interaction to achieve these results.

Read more in the latest Developer Diary from Brian 'Zombie Columbus' Aloisio and post your comments here!

Originally Posted by Clover

The Rune-keeper currently sits at top tier in both damage and healing output. Because of this, the goals we have set for this update did not focus on increasing or decreasing net effectiveness, but on adding variety, customization and more dynamic skill interaction to achieve these results.

The changes look great. I like the changes to Chisels to make them more interesting.

I'm also happy to see that the devs are taking the approach to buffing other classes up rather than nerfing classes for balance. I know that people have complained about a few of the "balancing adjustements" in the past (champs/fervour, hunter/burg adjustments) but overall the devs have been very good about avoiding nerfs.

Thanks! Looking forward to the RK update!

Some pretty crazy stuff here.

Tobbled Master of Writs sounds insane.

Cosmetic satchels?! That sounds like a major step toward cosmetic weapons and shields!

The only thing that concerns me is Sustaining Bolt. It sounds too elemental and not narrative enough. But I'll hold my outrage until I see the tooltip.

Originally Posted by gildhur

Cosmetic satchels?! That sounds like a major step toward cosmetic weapons and shields!

Aye, hope so mate.

I dig this!

After some very careful analysis, many RK players are coming up with results that this is a nerf, or if not a nerf, that it's a sideways move for the RK. Instead of being excellent at EITHER DPS or Healing, now the RK can work in a more hybrid fashion (master of writs).

Furthermore, RKs have already had power issues when running lightning. That will be further exacerbated now.

Here are threads with over a hundred of responses to these changes - as tested on Beta. Players voices their concerns here, and in my opinion, stayed respectful of the work the Devs have done, but also shared their candid feelings.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...Update-Q-amp-A

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?364862-Zombie

The Dev responses were not overly transparent with regards to the reasoning behind the changes. Perhaps if the Dev team had managed expectations a little better, then the players wouldn't have been so shocked. For example, two months ago or so when the upcoming "fixes" were being announced, the dev team could have mentioned that lightning was too powerful, and needed a slight reduction. Managing our expectations allows us time to adjust, rather than telling us that we are getting a buff and then slipping in so many perceived nerfs, and then expecting the players to be thrilled.


Here is another thread with a short poll that I started - not enough responses really, but you'll see that the majority of players were waiting on more:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...coming-Changes.


I know that there isn't 100% consensus among RK players, but what I've noticed is this:

Nearly all Players want the bug fixes.
Many players feel like the 4-trait lightning bonus is extremely useless.
Many players feel like Epic for the Ages is too lengthy of an induction to be useful in any healing rotation. People will die if we use it. Plain and simple. There are better and more effective emergency heals for an RK. EftA is a "mini" style heal, and doesn't fit well with the RK HoT style of healing.
As a result of the problems with EftA, the power and healing nerf to mending verse is extremely damaging to the RK ability to heal, even with the new and improved "rifflers". ZC has indicated that the idea behind the change to Mending was to get more RK to use EftA - but RKs mostly have a consensus that it's way too risky to use EftA in any environment where you are main-healing.
Many players feel that the fire tweaks are underwhelming. Fire-line = Turret Line for the RK. Stand still, and read your rock, and burn things. The changes to fire were barely noticeable. Many of us expected... a different type of fire-line, or something really cool. Bears with laser beam eyes and farting blue fire or something, I don't know...



Why the long rant, especially after all the hard work that I am positive ZC did?

I leveeld an RK based on the promise that RK would be "fixed" and "given additional much-needed polish". The hype was so good, that I set aside my 3 other 65 toons and spent august, september, and october leveling and working on my toon. So many hours I poured in, and I've been slamming through end-game raids and group content now to get him all decked out - and I realized that as a healer, he was pretty solid and in a good place. As a lightning bug, RK was fun and random. Sure, there were huge hits, but those were NOT dependable, and the class was fun. And the fire-line was ok, something that in group content I could toss into the lightning mix with writs and the long-duration DoTs when in raids.

The idea of a "bi-polar" class helped offset the classes obvious strengths. Now... with full DPS, I can keep up a writ of health. With full healing, I can keep the writ of cold debuff and the writ of fire DoT on up to nearly three targets. BUT... I'm not as good at battle-attuned damage as before, and I'm not as good at healing-attuned heals as before.

The much needed polish turned out to be changing a unique class among all MMO (a class that is two opposite and distinct roles) into a more standard hybrid mage that I've seen before in so many games before, and didn't add to the classes already existing flavor. Maybe that's the safe move for Turbine to make. I don't know.

Wall of text /end.

I guess I'll start playing the RK more now........ So tell me..... an encyclopedic overhaul to the RK which should translate into this class being ideal for PVP, or PVE and pretty much any role in either....... perfect, and a good reward for playing an "Advanced" toon.

Why however, were the changes to the LM toon so minimal in comparison, and little done to help this class be more useful when it is an "Advanced" toon as well?

As I said, looks like it might be time to retire the LM, and rank up the RK

- M

Idea!

Instead of "Sustaining Bolt" which sounds like it's actual lightning, how about "Sustaining Remarks" to nail it down as what the RK really does?

Too many inventory items. I already carry a fire/lighning/cold stone set in addition to my legacy stones because of the needed buff protection during raids (Legendary stones damage types can't be changed) Now I have to carry around different type of chisels, and well as enamels? Can we not be so skill inventory bound? We are not burglars!

Epic of ages healing skill is still too long induction. A problem still not addressed. All I see if power cost increases for a runekeeper. This should make BG Lt even more a problem. Thanks..

I've been playing this class ever since it was released in PVMP/PVE and end game raiding..

Thanks for the power Nerfs and killing our healing output. The only good thing I see is fixing fire bugs (That should of been fixed about a year ago) (Could at least buffed dmg on it).. 3% run speed buff? lol wut? Does it work in combat? prob not haha.

It is a bit telling the devs don't play the class. By using enamles, I can attune fast for healing and not spam usless heals to get a writ up. I just find it now odd they make another skill.,

My thoughts on the diary, titled to match the sections of the diary.

Four Trait Set Bonuses

Calling these 100% additions simply because RKs have been stuck with broken set bonuses since release is rather disingenuous. This is a fix to a very long standing bug and it's somewhat insulting to see them categorized as additions to the class.

Fury of Storm

I've never felt that life was bland when zapping things with lightning. The randomness of the possible buffs always kept me deciding what skill I wanted to use next. It made me think about whether or not it was worth using EC, based both on my active buffs and the mob's morale. I can always vary my rotation with non-Lightning skills too. In groups I'm always busy maintaining DNF to X, Will not Poison/Wound, Calming Verse, cold debuffs, and HOTs. I have Fall to X and Fall to Our Wrath to use as well, both as offensive weapons and as resistance reducers. Sadly we are being told that it was in fact bland and that the new skill and changes are meant to spice that up and provide variety. I suppose if all you did was mash CA and SS while waiting 30 seconds for the next EC it would be bland, but that's not how I played.

Lightning damage was deemed too strong, and too power efficient. Instead of making necessary changes and adding something interesting we are given an addition that is merely part of an existing buff from a class trait (Tale of the Storm). That isn't adding variety to what I do when I go Lightning. It's telling me what I need to do in order to maintain almost the same performance as I have today. If I choose not to use a specific chisel and include a specific new skill in my rotation my power consumption goes up and damage does down. That's not an interesting addition to the class, it's just moving existing pieces around and telling me what gear I have to equip in order to make it worth using to boot.

Whee.

Wrath of Flame

I'm happy about all the bug fixes. Essay of Fire will also help get your DOTs ticking faster after scripted wipes. Perhaps it will be enough to make fire more viable in a group setting, at least for bosses. I will reserve judgement until I can parse in a group setting with a proper Fire stone.

Words of Grace

RK healing was too power efficient, so Mending Verse takes a hit. Not terribly surprising. The other 'high point' is Master of Writs. Personally I don't like it. I liked the fact that RK was a very strong hybrid, but that you were pretty bad at your 'opposite role' while healing or dealing damage. Adding a skill that lets you heal better while doing damage or do better damage as a healer wasn't at all necessary. I also had a chuckle at bypassing 'unneeded heals' to get to 3 attunement. Rock>Prelude>MV and you're there, and those aren't exactly bad things on their own. If it's too onerous simply use an Enamel. Did I really need a way to bypass that? What I needed as a change to Epic for the Ages to make it more useful in group play. We shall see if the mentioned change counts, but when I was on BR it was not yet live so it's hard to tell at this time.

Chisels

This could have been my favorite part of the update. Instead it's my least favorite addition. Being unable to swap chisels in combat completely kills this for me. I'm not interested in deciding before combat if I want to utilize my 10% power reduction skill or if I'd prefer lower resists. I'm not interested in deciding if I want slightly larger heals or more reliable corruption removal and being locked in for the duration.

Let us actually swap chisels in combat and you'll have a great addition. Sustaining Bolt will actually get used, I'll enjoy the riflers yet still be able to clear corruptions as effectively as I can today (such as that is), and I'll feel there was actually some variety added to my game play.

General Updates

Lots of good bug fixes. Hurray!

Cosmetics

Meh?

Conclusion

Lots of much needed fixing of bugs, and hurray for that. Some of them have been around for far, far too long. Most of the rest is pretty uninspiring.

For me, the changes really don't mean much, though there are things I am concerned about. Put shortly, ou can still play both healing and dps roles without changing, especially considering that the 4-trait bonuses weren't working in the first place.

In more detail...

Lightning Skills/Traits
In terms of rotations, you can go unchanged, and really not lose much in terms of damage output. The 4-trait bonus itself was underwhelming. A cooldown reduction is nice, but the +3% movement speed is nearly useless as the only place it really could make a difference, is in the moors.

Fire Skills/Traits
Overall, the changes to the fire line I really like. I don't know if it is enough to really change anything, but it at least adds a convenience factor with Essay of Flame. In combination with the new 4-trait set bonus, this is a nice addition to the RK arsenal. The Scathing Retort debuff change might mix up rotations for fire a bit as you can add in things after it finishes channeling that will benefit from the debuff. The other fire changes are essentially bug fixes

Healing Skills/Trait
It has be said before, but I still will not be using Epic for the Ages. A 4-second induction is ridiculous for a main healer. In other words, outside of testing out the changed Terse Narrative effects, I still won't be using EftA. I'd rather see EftA have a shorter induction, but increase in induction time on repeated casts.

A 'spot heal' is something you cast on someone then go back to healing as normal. In this perspective, you only ever cast it once at a time, then forget about it again, so the reduced cast time is moot. For example, the Lore-master's Beacon of Hope is a spot heal. I guess I'm just saying that EftA isn't fulfilling the role that it intended to fill (spot-healing), so it either needs to change to fit that role, or it needs to change to fit some other role.

Maybe I just haven't found the right way to use Epic for the Ages without sacrificing one of the other group members.

Master of Writs being a toggle was an interesting concept, but in practice, I found that, coupled with the overall increase in RK power usage while healing, just made me run out of power too quickly.

RK class-items
It is hard to complain about added variety. Chisel of Lightning is the only thing making the lightning changes anything to seriously consider. The rifflers are pretty neat, overall.

In terms of RK-satchels being equipped cosmetically, I think this is great! But when you say every class could eventually equip it cosmetically, I think that is going in the wrong direction. With the wardrobe, you can already have a level one warden equipped in the Helegrod Burglar set (cosmetically). Ok, so they have to finish the intro first to get access to a vault, so whatever level that puts you at, but the point is still there. I don't think there is any need or even a reason to allow more classes to look like each other, it is already bad as it is.

</thoughts>

I've personally never had a problem with Epic for the Ages as is. This likely stems from never having had a max level/end-game ready Minstrel to compare healing styles with, but I accepted the long induction for what it was, a heal that required timing and appropriate upkeep of the maintenance healing of the rest of the group; basically something to pop on a maintank who was currently bubbled. The associated class trait has always been useless but that's okay since the skill could never be worked in as a regular part of the healing rotation; more a wasted opportunity for a useful class trait than anything else.

Power cost increases to the Fury of Storm line are fine since the only time a player ever runs out of power while using primarily/only lightning skills is in a protracted fight in the Ettenmoors, or in the Lt. fight in BG, the latter of which was only a product of the 4-trait line for Cleansing Fires having never worked and forcing people to trait Lightning for the power savings per skill over fire and frost skills in the first place; if that trait line bonus had been fixed, it would be prefered for its inherent boon of DoT w/o having to reapply as many skills.

I have to say though, as one who has spent countless hours trying to get an even passable (not to mention perfect) Lightning-affinity stone for his main (and increasingly only character), while having gotten a passable stone to use with the Cleansing Fire traitline to get Mystifying Flame slotted, I'm largely not impressed with the lack of attention to the power cost requirements for that trait line. Necessitating an armour set bonus, a legacy apiece on each your stone and your satchel, AND traiting two class traits in order to reduce power costs on skills as well as increasing the power restoration of Self-Motivation to a significant level seems a little limiting given the proposed objective of these changes, namely broadening the range of how the class works. Acknowledgement that the 4-trait set bonuses never worked, combined with scrapping them entirely, all with an imposed increase to power costs across the board seems, well... I'll just say inconsistent with the proposed intent of making the class more versitile or at least changing the way that players play each of the trait lines/trying to get people to slot the Cleansing Fire trait line ever.

Lastly, not being able to hotswap out chisels during combat is a failed implementation of what would otherwise be a great addition. Players are allowed to swap out weapons, legendary items, legendary class items, and wardens can swap carvings, so why handcuff the runekeeper like this, it's bad enought that we have to carry around over two bags worth of armour, consumables, maps, legendary items, etc. but to then tell us we can't change them during combat is not an addition to the class, it's a detraction. Seeing as this is likely only a flag fix in the coding, it should be changed before being hoisted onto the live servers.

Originally Posted by Morris1

I guess I'll start playing the RK more now........ So tell me..... an encyclopedic overhaul to the RK which should translate into this class being ideal for PVP, or PVE and pretty much any role in either....... perfect, and a good reward for playing an "Advanced" toon.

Why however, were the changes to the LM toon so minimal in comparison, and little done to help this class be more useful when it is an "Advanced" toon as well?

As I said, looks like it might be time to retire the LM, and rank up the RK

- M

LOL are you serious? LM changes too minimal????????? since when? Almost every LM is excited about the changes coming down the pike and many RK's sees this update overall for what it really is, a nerf to lightning and healing.

The chisels idea is a waste for many reasons. Only one has -tact resist, can't swap in combat, and inventory space is already at a premium.

Thank you for the update regarding the RK class. I do realize its a sideways shift of the class (not a nerfing) and really intended to balance the class with relation to the other classes in the game.

How has the Dev. team considered the issue of a RK healing vs. Minstrel healing?
While the Minstrel is the closest class to a Cleric (EverQuest), my feeling is that this is further complicating the decision to run my favorite class in a game, pure healer.

The majority of content at the higher levels and in large group scenarios for the healing class consists of pure healing output for single and group targets.

As a RK in these encounters to maximize my healing, I focus on just a few things to keep the tank and the group alive. (Please pardon the scatterdness; just took some pain medication and its taking its toll)

• Raise healing attunement
• Get Writ of Health stacked on everyone
• Keep Prelude of hope up on everyone
• Fire off individual heals as needed (big one or small one)
• Keep pet rock alive

Now as a minstrel in the same situations I:

• Try to get the buffs started before the fight starts because I probably will not be able to get another chance to recast them for the duration of the fight
• Cast Bolster Courage on each group/raid member as needed
• When tank/critical member is not dying, use group heal and pray the tank/critical member doesn't die

So just a basic comparison to these overly simplified more often than not group/raid encounters just told me my Minstrel is now further useless compared to the RK. (This is before the November update too!) With the changes now as a RK healer, I can stack DoTs and contribute to the DPS of the group.

RK Benefits: Same healing output + Significant DoT DPS


However, lets not forget the special abilities the Minstrel has

• Maybe use Soloquiy of Spirit (It might as well flash pretty lights instead of what little healing it does)
• Song of Aid (Does what again? Oh yeah unlock skills everyone in the group is already in the process of unlocking through the whole fight)
• Echoes of Battle Sword (Does the DPS of a gnat or rabid bunny)
• The mega group heal I have to set to Alt-F9 with a ten (10) minute cooldown! (Saves the group from one (1) oh ^$*& momment)
• Fellowships Heart (Clearly the best last effort group skill that it not a CJ) with a thirty (30 min) cooldown
• Call to Greatness (Other than hitting a captain with it when I remember; a great sounding skill that fizzles on actual delivery of "greatness")
• Rally! (Almost forgot the one oh ^%*# recovery skill for when my Alt-F9 skill is poorly timed and kills a member)

Minstrel Benefits: Same healing output as before + Near zero DPS contribution + plays instrument animations

As an end result, this further reinforces players who enjoy playing a pure healing class to play the RK instead of a minstrel. So sad.

Again, apologies for the scattered thoughts.


Goals of this comment:

• Not start another healer rant/debate
• Provide basic comparison of classes with my favorite class in a MMORPG
• Despite the critical nature of this post; Thank you for enhancements to the RK class, they sound great
• Give some feedback as requested from a long time player of MMORPG and casual LOTRO lifetime member

Next time a Class goes into the garage for repair (think of a car pulling badly to one side and worn tires) please consider doing an alignment in addition to replacing the tires.

Originally Posted by Uundamp

I power-leveled an RK based

The idea of a "bi-polar" class helped offset the classes obvious strengths. Now... with full DPS, I can keep up a writ of health. With full healing, I can keep the writ of cold debuff and the writ of fire DoT on up to nearly three targets. BUT... I'm not as good at battle-attuned damage as before, and I'm not as good at healing-attuned heals as before.

I'm not sure how fast you power leveled or what, but your above statements are just not true. Master of writs does not change the attunement gain from these skills. So if you're "full DPS" once you hit MoW you will be attuned towards neutral. You are no longer full DPS as you have lost some of your DPS skills (Epic Conclusion for one). Next, when you use writ of health, you continue to move towards neutral attunement, losing even more of your DPS skills. MoW lasts only 15 seconds, which would be just enough time to get a tier 3 writ of health up. To continue healing you'd have to hit MoW again and lose more attunement. From a "healing while I'm DPSing" perspective, MoW is the little brother of Steady Hands. It lets you get a little healing in while not totally destroying your DPS attunement like Steady Hands.

Going "Full Heal" and keeping DPS Writs up encounters the same problem. As soon as you start using MoW and the DPS skills, you no longer are "full Heal" as you move towards neutral attunement. However, as a toggle skill, you'll only have to take that neutral attunement hit from MoW once time per battle. So you'll be able to mix in healing skills to keep your attunement mid-to-full healing while using WoF and WoC. However, the power costs of these writs in addition to the power bump in Mending Verse is going to make DPS while healing very limited. From the healing perspective, MoW gives us a little bit more DPS and some debuffs to make healing more exciting.

I like these changes. RKs never had much need to care about their attunement (as many posts in the RK forum demonstrate) and simply took it for granted. Now I see RKs having to management not only their power and primary role, but also their attunement. An advanced class for sure. I think the changes are going to make RKs a much more fun class to play.

@Sylev
I've said this in other threads, but I'll give my opinion again here.
I think this will be used most in 3-man content, and maybe during 6 mans if things are going really well or a cappie is there for off-heals, AND power is not an issue.
The writ skill allows us to cast writs of the opposite attunement with increased power cost.
So, if we really need to focus on healing, and power is an issue, I do not foresee the smart RK trying to writ up fire or cold.
The other thing to consider is that casting skills of the opposite attunement still moves our attunement bar, so if we take the chance to tier up some damage, then we lose access to our most powerful abilities until we can regain attunement.

I imagine on the mini side that you are able to "ballad up" your group and add a 10% group damage bonus if things are going well.

Comparatively, I think the damage a RK can do with a Tier 3 writ of fire is much less than that.

With the power increase to healing, that last thing I'm going to do is dps as a healing role...

I have reservations about the proposed changes.

After testing what I could, and reviewing the math, this is my feedback regarding these changes:

Lightning Spec RKs

Simply put, the effect on Lightning Spec is a loss of at least 5% total net sustained dps (after the buff to Essence of the Storm and the addition of Sustaining Bolt). I, and others, have tested this, and our tests confirm what the math predicted. Some people are finding more than a 10% loss. No one, I am aware of, has parsed less than a 5% loss. If your goal was really to keep net effectiveness where it is now, then you clearly went too far.

The 15% nerf to Scribe’s Spark is, in itself, a 5% nerf to total dps. Scribe’s Spark is the best damage spell for Lightning Spec, and is cast every three seconds in most rotations. It is the only spell that is increased by 20% at full attunement and also increased by a 20% bag legacy. It makes up 30% of total damage in our rotation. On top of the nerf to SS, the nerf to Tale of the Storm is also damaging. We lose the -10% power cost, which, in long boss fights where power is tight, usually amounts to a loss of dps as well. The buff the Essence of Storm is nice, but still not as big as a full power SS pre-nerf. Sustaining Bolt does decent damage, but costs too much power if you don't equip the chisel (which comes with its own trade-offs).

The Lightning Chisel does not, in any way, mitigate that loss of dps. If we equip the Lightning chisel (so we can cast the free Sustaining Bolt to make up for the loss of -10 power from Tale of the Storm), it amounts to a net loss of dps. The Charged buff from the Lightning Chisel is on for 1/3 of the time while in combat. That means the Lightning chisel gives you a +5% tactical critical multiplier 1/3 of the time. Therefore, on average, it gives you a +1.667% tactical critical multiplier. So, if you crit 30% of the time against even level mobs, the Charged buff amounts to about a 0.5-1% increase in dps. When you factor in the loss of Penetration resistance, it is a net loss of dps against even level mobs. Against high level boss mobs, where penetrate resistance is even more important, the net loss of dps will be even higher.

Due to the drawbacks of Sustaining Bolt and the Lightning Chisel, the Lightning 4 trait will do nothing to improve the Spec. The 3% run speed (to use one of my father's old sayings) just adds insult to injury.

Fire Spec RKs

The effect of these changes on Fire Spec is a very slight increase in total net dps. There are two changes that affect Fire Spec. The addition of Essay of Fire partially addresses one of the problems of the Fire Spec. This spell will allow a Tier 3 WoF to be placed much quicker after a DoT wipe. In addition, the Penetrate in the 4 trait will reduce resists slightly. Nothing else was done to address the relative weakness of the Fire spec.

The Fire chisel will rarely, if ever, be used. Avoiding induction knockback in Fiery Ridicule is not something most people will care about (especially compared with the 720+ Penetrate resistance).

Heal Spec RKs

It is hard to give a full assessment of the healing changes until I see what is being done to Terse Narrative and Mending Verse (the changes mentioned in the notes are not on the server at present). As an aside, I think most of us would prefer that RK continue to heal mainly with HoTs, and are leery of the plan to increase the up front healing and reduce the HoT of Mending Verse. Of the changes we have tested, net healing seems weaker. The Memorable Prose nerf hurts healing efficiency (and will be exascerbated by the increase in Mending Verse power cost). This is especially painful because Mending Verse is our bread and butter healing spell. The reduction in the cost of Writ of Health will not make up for this loss for most RKs.

The new spell, Master of Writs, does nothing for Healing, but will allow us to do some dps while healing. Whether this is a positive or not is up for debate. Generally, most raid leaders prefer their healers focus on healing. I could see this as being useful for healers in small fellowships, and for people who want to play a hybrid, but not otherwise. I expect this spell will be most useful, not for healers, but for people who are attuned battle and want to cast an occasional heal. It should help solo RKs survivability (but I am not sure we needed a solo buff). Since I do not see Master of Writs as being that useful for dedicated healers, I do not see the Heal 4 trait as being that useful either. The reduced threat aspect is nice, but overall, the trait is lackluster. I believe most RKs would have preferred something to improve their healing.

The new Rifflers are a nice addition, especially for non-raiding RKs. Heal specced raiding RKs are generally on corruption removal duty. They need the Penetrate Resistance to be able to fulfill that duty. For RKs healing in small groups, they should be helpful, perhaps enough to mitigate the nerf to Mending Verse / Memorable Prose.

Overall impression

To be honest, I am very disappointed with the update. If the forums are any indication, most RKs agree. There are several reasons for this:

First, it feels like you do not like how we are playing, and nerfing things to make us play in a certain way. We are relying too much on Scribe’s Spark, so you nerf it 15%. We rely too much on Mending Verse, and don’t cast Epic of the Ages as much as we should, so you nerf Mending Verse and buff Epic of the Ages. We are speccing Lightning in raids instead of Fire, so you nerf Lightning so that it will be too weak to use in raids. We prefer short inductions spells over long induction spells, so you change things to try to force us to use the long induction spells. To some extent, we feel we are being pushed into playing in a way we do not want to play, instead of being given options.

Secondly, many of us have tested the changes, and run the math, and see a substantial reduction in dps. While it may be true that, if we change how we play, spec and gear ... and play absolutely perfectly ... we may be able to come close to our prior dps (90-95%???). In reality, that certainly feels like a nerf. If you make the class harder to play, and say you have to play it absolutely perfectly just to approach your previous dps, that is a practical nerf for the vast majority of players. Also, what is the reason for all these changes (if not to nerf us)? To be blunt, the players are the best judge of what is fun. Most RKs like the class as it is now - why change it?

Next, you are asking us to make trade offs that honestly feel unfair. The perfect example is the Tale of the Storm / Sustaining Bolt / Lightning Chisel situation. Prior to the changes, we received a free -10% power cost (from Tale of the Storm) and were able to equip a chisel with 720 penetration resistance. Now, we have to sacrifice 720+ Penetration and cast a spell, just to get the -10% power cost we got for free before.

Finally, the disappointment is in part based on the disconnect between how we play, what we see in game, what we expressed in our feedback, and our expectations for this "polish" ... versus what these changes seem to indicate are your feelings about the class. Based on our feedback, and what we saw in game, we were expecting a very slight nerf to Lightning (focused on Epic Conclusion since that is where most of the complaints come from). We were expecting Healing to get a slight buff, and Fire to get a noticeable buff. What we see (remember that perception is reality to us) is vastly different. Our perception is that Lightning is nerfed quite a bit, healing output is the same (or maybe even slightly worse), and Fire is only marginally buffed. When we compare ourselves to Hunters and Minstrels, it does not seem like this is warranted.

We were expecting what other classes are getting - exciting new changes that make you look forward to the "polish" patch. Instead, many of us are dreading the patch. How is that a good thing? You seem to have polished us so much ... you have polished away the luster.

Upside: Great! I might get my RK up from 62 to the lvl cap, just to see what the changes are really like and how they'll effect my playstyle. I especially like the chisel changes and look forward to making a few. And anything cosmetic = good by me.

Downside: Maybe ZC can go back n' give Minstrels some love, since Turbine done innit given them any in forever. C'mon, gimme a reason to dust off my Mini, that I haven't used but a single handful of times, this year.

The vast majority of the people happy with this update are the Hunters and Minstrels that will no longer have to compete with RKs for raid slots. The class will be weaker, less focused, and less fun to play.

The fact that this is seemingly going live with nothing changed shows a disconnect between the players and the Devs that is wider than the Grand Canyon.

You are moving us down to Tier 2 dps (sustained dps nerfed by 5-10% has been proven by testing). You are making it harder for us to heal (nerfed our best heal and our power efficiency). You are moving us into a playstyle that most RKs do not want (pushing us toward longer induction spells, and less HoTs).

Can you please articulate your vision for the class? Are we now a hybrid that will only be used when a true dps or a true healer can't be found?

Well, I do not see this as a nice update to the RK not at all.

Fixing the bugs they have had for the longest time would have been nice.

As it is now even when fully geared and fully setup we have power issues when doing anything unless you have cappy buff and banner even with -15% Xtype on your stone.

And now lowering our hots...... Umm well now RKs are just another healing class as in any other mmo.....

Thanks for screwing that up.

Taking our buffs away and increasing power.... Thanks for making it even harder to compete with a hunter
we had to rely on crits to even compare with a hunters dps output as it is now yeah ok we get a better chance of a buff going on us but it last half as long as well dose less damage overall......

now on top of all that you expect us to be happy with lowering one of our main damage skill that we rely on heavly ( Scribe Spark ) and lowering its power.... well in the first place it wasn't much power cost to start with so why would you change that.

If someone thinks that I don't know anything about the rk lets just say this.

I have run every raid in the game more then once.

I heal and DPS in BG so I know what it takes in there
I am fully geard out.

I know every skill and what it dose so yes I have a very in depth understand of the RK and I do see this as a massive nerf.

So to the devs who thought it would be nice to change up a class that is great and make it into a class that now has to carry 3 types of stones 2 satchels and enamals to now adding 5 more chisels.

Thats 1 bag just for flippen making our class able to do what we are after..

And on top of that.... Your What would you like to see forums obvisouly go on deff ears cause all you have done is made everything more power consumptive and do even less....

Ok I will give you that you "Fixed" the 4 trait line by totally making it pointless..... so again not even caring about what the community wants....

ehhh whatever I know that they don't care what we want to see they just want to say "Look we did something"

So end rand and just go on playing and just wait to get nerfed with the update...

Honestly what are the chances things will change based on our responses? It's going to get ram-rodded in anyway as these concerns are mirror reflection from the beta/test server testers. These discussion feedback threads are moot/silly/group therapy.

Turbine has punished the RK's yet again...thanks for making my almost 35+ item craftings for "scribe's spark" damage just money flushed down the toilet...I need to re-think whether I want to stay with a game that is scared of a glass-cannon class. There are some new/expanded opportunities on the near horizon for glass-cannons in other games in December. I don't like spending money on Turbine points so I can be "face-slapped" like this. I told the Turbine survey that I'd play LotRO along with other P2P games. I TAKE IT ALL BACK...I won't do it! No more of my money for YOU, Turbine! If you want to really balance taking away ever more and more of our damage, why not give us the option to trait for leather? Anyway, who in the world told you that we wanted to have to plan for and press 6-8 buttons when we could do the job effectively with 3-4?....have the devs ever seriously played a glass-cannon/dps class, ever parsed and tweaked a toon for dps output? In the games I played that allowed serious add-ons, I lived by the damage meter (I know, not everyone's cuppa) and worked my own build to maximize output. It worked well, and I really enjoyed playing a toon that was all my making. It feels good to achieve, even in a game.

Never forget that no matter how much damage you "think we do"; at the end of a night in the moors, I am, more often than not, a toasted warg snack.

BTW: READ THROUGH ALL OF BRADD's POSTS ABOVE; HE HIT ALL THE NAILS ON THE HEAD.

Originally Posted by Sylev

How has the Dev. team considered the issue of a RK healing vs. Minstrel healing?

Ugh, don't get me started.

Minstrels are still healing like everyone is Level 50, lol.

RK needing an update... Umm... I guess more staff must play RKs cause I thought they were good as is?

Originally Posted by Grape

Honestly what are the chances things will change based on our responses? It's going to get ram-rodded in anyway as these concerns are mirror reflection from the beta/test server testers. These discussion feedback threads are moot.

I have to totally agree with this statement. I don't know why they bother to put up feedback forums because they never do anything with them. I remember feedback from F2P beta, back in June. We had 3 months of testing, and the changes were minimal. I remember one feedback suggestion where a comment was made to change the name of the store. A GM said it was too late to make a change to a name. So why bother asking for changes knowing full well you won't bother with them? The only thing they changed was the truly horrible vault changes to only horrible vault changes. It's only in November that these complaints will finally be more fully (not totally) addressed. 5 months! I complained (and many others) back in June!

If the changes can't happen because of time constraints, ask for feedback when it matters! What's the point of a beta that doesn't change something that's broken? How long as the tier 4 trait buff been a problem? Since the class started? And your solution was to just not tell anyone about it and hope for the best? What kinda mental problems do you have to think that this is a GOOD idea?

As for the RK changes, I find it hard enough to heal a full group that's taking damage as it is, so the odds of me throwing in some damaging spells for fun is insane. Oh, well. This is why I've leveled every class in the game, so when one gets messed up, I have a fall back. At least I can still play my captain.

I don't have an RK but I do have a friend that plays one and she's less than pleased with the proposed changes, well, from the changes that will likely be pushed in despite what folks say to the negative about it here. Having said that, I've played DPS classes in Lineage2, Guild Wars, WoW, Aion and have a hunter here in LotRO. I also have a minstrel that I solo skirmish with and heal with.

On the point of the one Minstrel that was complaining about having no DPS, we have ballads that we don't have to attune for, nor do we have to tier stuff up other than to get to Ballad of War (which can be traited up with a legacy on our books to giving up to +20% to melee damage to the entire group for up to 30seconds). If you have power issues, I'm sorry to hear that, buy some good food.

As far as our heals go, I usually have no problems, granted, I do wish SoS was a better heal but again it can be improved with a legacy on a weapon for more pulses. I do use it, it can be helpful as constant pulse on the MT and honestly to be able to add almost 1200 to 1400 points of healing over a minute is a bonus for the amount it costs. I put it on so that I can maintain heals on everyone else and not have as much stress over the tank's morale.

All this being said, I'm finding this news disheartening because it means in all likelyhood that this title will once again be one that I will step back from for a time. Hopefully these posts will get read and hopefully the dev's will take a look at what's being said and act on it. What am I expecting in posting this? Unfortunately from past history, not much. Why am I still bothering? I'm honestly not sure, but I guess it's because I still have a bit of hope that maybe someday a dev team will actually listen to people that play in their product and think maybe they have some valid points and put a stop to something that the player base finds it doesn't like.

Does the RK class need tweaking? From what I can tell from playing with them. No, absolutely not. The bonus' that weren't in the game because they haven't been there since the beginning???? Umm... well, that sounds like something that should have been fixed before even considering putting Mirkwood out. I have to say, the brainfart on that one is one that I can actually smell over TCP/IP.

I am not a person that does much with parsing and I haven't really cared because my play style has always been more along the lines of utility for a group. I tend to play tanks, healers and then DPS classes at the end either for farming needs or a change of pace. That being said, I do understand why folks look at parsing because quite honestly if they don't it means that stuff doesn't fall down as fast as it should. Why does this affect me, well, as a tank it means longer time that I'm being beat on or that they are taking damage in raids from AoE effects and finally that it's harder on the healers. So if I'm not tanking then I'm on the other end of the stick and that being that it makes healing harder because you're still at it.

That's not to say that I haven't played a dps class end game, my first character was a Champion and the second a Hunter. This being said I did a fair amount of tanking on my Champion as well so it's not as out of character for me as I've stated.

As for the other stuff, cosmetic satchels, sounds good if it goes to weapons/shields. But really, that's the fluff in the discussion. The meat of the matter is that the rest can be good or bad, the chisels need to get upgraded. But as far as needing to carry around all of them. Why would you? From the sounds of it, honestly, you need only pick your primary way to dps and carry around your choice of stone/satchel/chisel for the two roles. I use 2 spears and a javelin on my Warden (now one of my two main character choices) and have two swords and two books on my Minstrel. Why is this relavent? Because of the varity game provides for how we choose to play. But what I can see from all of this is that Turbine seems to be pointing the class to cookie cutter setup and use.

Honestly, shorter induction times will get used more than longer ones, quicker cooldowns will get used more often because they'll be available. Reducing base damage and making a skill take longer is key to forcing people away from the class and the game. When you try to use a long induction time when something is hitting you, be it a mob or player in the Moors, the ultimate result is that you stand there getting pushback after pushback and then die because the spell remains uncast. Like a prior poster said, ultimately at the end of a night in the Moors, people that have no choice but to use long induction spells are just a warg snack.

The problem about those changes is because it's came from another classes complaining and it's sad. Almost every Rk wanted just the bugs fixed, not new skills/ traits change. I think devs should make improvements on the other classes and not nerf a class that is working very well despite the bugs.

I'm really worried about heal nerf.

Force a HoT based class use skills of EftA is ridiculous. I dont think compare Ministrels with RKs is the way to go, same for LM/Burg, Grd/Wrd. Even filling the same spot, those classes have a diferent playstyle.

If i become forced using EftA style to heal i quit. If i wanted heal so, i would leveled a Ministrel.

Originally Posted by Greenasp

At least I can still play my captain.

I don't play alts ... so I am stck playing a Tier 2 hybrid for a year or more til they realize how badly they screwed up... or, take an extended break and play another game. I don't relish either option.

Please give an option to disable the lighting effects produced by the Rune-Keeper. When one is around me and doing whatever it is that they do to cause the flashing effects I get a headache and either immediately have to move to another area or quit playing.

And I'm sure there are people who react to these flashes a lot more harshly than I do (because you know, just about every video game has a warning about this in the manuals?).

Originally Posted by trancejeremy

Please give an option to disable the lighting effects produced by the Rune-Keeper. When one is around me and doing whatever it is that they do to cause the flashing effects I get a headache and either immediately have to move to another area or quit playing.

And LM and Minstrel flashing light-from-the-sky effects are just peachy keen? There are animation options you can change to minimize a lot of these, FYI.

Originally Posted by EnnCee

BTW: READ THROUGH ALL OF BRADD's POSTS ABOVE; HE HIT ALL THE NAILS ON THE HEAD.

Thanks for the kind words, though I doubt it will matter.

As a main healer for BG raid, i strongly disagree the changes have been made to Mending Verse, especially the power cost; this is a skill not only the bread and butter for healing RKs, but also compensate the lack of group heals in RKs healing, and this skill is extremely important in raid. Dev, please make another consideration about this change, something like when a RK is fully DPS traited, the power cost of MV will be increased, or if a RK is fully healing traited, the power cost of MV will be decreased.

Has anyone else noticed that this supposed change to MV is missing from Bullroarer? I went to test it out, and found that the skill was identicle to the skill on live. Why is it in the dev diary for the update if the change won't be in the update?

Originally Posted by Bradd

Heal Spec RKs

It is hard to give a full assessment of the healing changes until I see what is being done to Terse Narrative and Mending Verse (the changes mentioned in the notes are not on the server at present). As an aside, I think most of us would prefer that RK continue to heal mainly with HoTs, and are leery of the plan to increase the up front healing and reduce the HoT of Mending Verse. Of the changes we have tested, net healing seems weaker. The Memorable Prose nerf hurts healing efficiency (and will be exascerbated by the increase in Mending Verse power cost). This is especially painful because Mending Verse is our bread and butter healing spell. The reduction in the cost of Writ of Health will not make up for this loss for most RKs.

The new spell, Master of Writs, does nothing for Healing, but will allow us to do some dps while healing. Whether this is a positive or not is up for debate. Generally, most raid leaders prefer their healers focus on healing. I could see this as being useful for healers in small fellowships, and for people who want to play a hybrid, but not otherwise. I expect this spell will be most useful, not for healers, but for people who are attuned battle and want to cast an occasional heal. It should help solo RKs survivability (but I am not sure we needed a solo buff). Since I do not see Master of Writs as being that useful for dedicated healers, I do not see the Heal 4 trait as being that useful either. The reduced threat aspect is nice, but overall, the trait is lackluster. I believe most RKs would have preferred something to improve their healing.

The new Rifflers are a nice addition, especially for non-raiding RKs. Heal specced raiding RKs are generally on corruption removal duty. They need the Penetrate Resistance to be able to fulfill that duty. For RKs healing in small groups, they should be helpful, perhaps enough to mitigate the nerf to Mending Verse / Memorable Prose.

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I am a healing RK, rolled one to heal because I hated the way my mini healed. I despise going down the track toward healing like a mini.

I also agree pretty much with everything Bradd has posted in regards to this update.

Others have said better and in greater detail than I could so I won't rehash again. I think the line that says the trait changes are 100% new just sums it up for me. We'll just ignore the bugs that existed and call the "fixes" new? C'mon guys who do you think you're fooling?

Not at all happy with the changes I've seen.

Originally Posted by Clover

The Rune-keeper currently sits at top tier in both damage and healing output. Because of this, the goals we have set for this update did not focus on increasing or decreasing net effectiveness

I think most of us would have accepted these nerfs better had you just stated you were intentionally nerfing us. We know that creeps, hunters and minstrels have been demanding RK be nerfed for over a year, and would have somewhat understood the desire to appease them.

Claiming you were trying to maintian our relative effectiveness (when we see our net dps and power efficiency was reduced, and our best healing spell weakened) just makes matters worse. It feels like you are insulting our intelligence. (If you were honestly trying to maintain our effectiveness, you failed.)

There is no way to spin these changes as anything but a nerf. I am not going to buy it, any more than I would buy oceanfront property in Arkansas.

What's the point of this dev diary? He's just restating patch notes again. There are barely any explanations behind the changes and the few that are included are clearly aimed at people who know next to nothing about the class.

As for the update itself, I fail to see the increase in gameplay variety they're trying to bring to the class. Chisels can't be swapped in combat, you pretty much have to use SB to safe power, you have to use Essay of Flame after DoT wipes. All this update is doing is forcing us to use certain skills, even if most of us don't like it. I'm 99% sure that if we keep complaining about SB & EftA, they're just gonna nerf our other skills in the next update to make SB/EftA look better. Same thing happened to champs with Ardour and I don't see why this would be different.

I remember about a year ago, devs were saying that RK class is well balanced and is right where it should be. I wonder what changed since then... Other classes are getting buffed and suddenly we're too OP now? /facepalm

Oh and I'm gonna second the above posters in saying that calling a 3% run speed a 100% addition is an insult to the class and the long-time RK players.

Originally Posted by Tain_Silphane

What's the point of this dev diary? He's just restating patch notes again. There are barely any explanations behind the changes and the few that are included are clearly aimed at people who know next to nothing about the class.

There is no way he could have discussed the changes in detail without it appearing like we were being nerfed. The White House Press Secretary could not spin things that well.

<~~updating all the "other" games on my desktop (that I have been ignoring for LotRO) JUST in case Turbine ignores our concerns about the RK nerf...

RKs are great the we we are. While I'm grateful for the bug fixes, I'm dismayed over the nerf to mending verse and the push to use the worthless Epic of the Ages minstrel heal. I heal raids on my RK, and I'm not looking forward to these changes (which I've tested on the Bullroarer server) going live. Master of Writs seems like a good idea until you see your attunement going haywire. I like the attunement requirements for RKs; it defines the class. Now IMO that distinction will be lost.

Originally Posted by PhilippaSomerville

RKs are great the we we are. While I'm grateful for the bug fixes, I'm dismayed over the nerf to mending verse and the push to use the worthless Epic of the Ages minstrel heal. I heal raids on my RK, and I'm not looking forward to these changes (which I've tested on the Bullroarer server) going live. Master of Writs seems like a good idea until you see your attunement going haywire. I like the attunement requirements for RKs; it defines the class. Now IMO that distinction will be lost.

I agree. Before, we were good at healing OR good at dps (but not both at the same time). Now, we will be pretty good at healing AND pretty good at dps (at the same time). They are turning us into a hybrid class - not top tier dps or healing, but pretty good at both (and able to both at the same time). I have seen, in WoW, how welcome hybrid classes are in raids.

We will do great solo, and OK in small fellowships. But, after these changes go live, min/max raid leaders will cut the number of RKs in their raid. A Hunter will dps much better and a Minstrel will heal much better.