Thread: Skill Delays Associated with Staff Sweep and Staff Strike

Before having 2 melee skills I rarely noticed the delay associated with Staff Strike, but...

After testing Staff Sweep, I noticed a long delay after the execution of the skill, like we used to have after Call to the Valar. I also noticed the delay after Staff Strike while trying to execute Staff Sweep and vice versa. I believe the delay after Call to the Valar is under consideration or already being removed.

I would like to see the delays after Staff Strike and Staff Sweep reduced or removed, this would be a nice change to speed up the pace of our melee skills and intermingling tactical skills to help develop new skill orders.

I slotted full KOA with bog lurker to test the new traits and incombat summoning out and noticed that KOA especially would benefit from this to keep up with utilization of the flanks.

The delays made melee combat feel a bit sluggish. I can understand the delay if they were 0sec CD or 1sec CD skills (ie warg claws) but b/c they have CD's let us use both SS's and get on with some other skills in a more timely manner.

There are delays, and the one after SSw is longer than SSt, but I suspect it may be WAI.

Remember we are using a 2-handed weapon, which is slow. That probably accounts for the delay, and SSw being longer is due to making two attacks. If I de-equip my off-hand sword, the delay after both skills seems about equal.

The perception of slowness is due to the fact that the animations are quite a bit shorter than the skill duration.

I don't think that it could possibly be WAI... these delays are very long, you can drive a truck through these delays... you can execute two or three other skills with these delays.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

I don't think that it could possibly be WAI... these delays are very long, you can drive a truck through these delays... you can execute two or three other skills with these delays.

Hmm, well maybe your delays are longer than mine. I see about a one-count after Staff Strike, or Staff Sweep without an off-hand, and a two-count after Staff Sweep with both weapons equipped. This is with auto-attacks off.

If I leave auto-attacks on, there always seems to be an auto-attack after either skill.

Staff Strike doesn't seem any slower to me than using a 2H melee skill with another class (e.g. Captain), and Staff Sweep doesn't seem much longer than something like Wild Attack (which is admittedly fairly slow, but always has been).

The delay after Call to the Valar (before the fix) was much longer...an eternity, by comparison.

The delays I am referring to happen when the skill "activates." The visual feedback for the skill activation on the quickslot bar hangs for a second or two, then the animation fires off at the normal rate, then there is another hang or delay before the next skill can be used. If I didn't know better, I would say that it was lag, but there are no other indications of lag present and my connection remains solid.

Are any of you using - attack duration runes? maybe this is influencing your opinion of how long this takes?

Tested this more on BR tonight. I really think this needs some adjusting. The delay is extremely sluggish.

If anyone has played a guardian they know how fast attacks can be. I am not saying we need immediate skills like the guardian has, but the delays on SS and SSw now slow play down substantially.

EDIT: Just tested the delay from Staff Sweep. I tested a few different times and typically came up with results around 3.5-4.5seconds. This is quite a long time.

I ask people to just go test it and go through your normal rotations or just go kill 10 mobs and throw SSw in there, see if you notice.

Skills timings can be divided into four parts. They are...

Induction - during this time, you can get activation blue bar, there can be set backs, you can get interrupted, I've seen auto-attacks happen during this time, but I suspect they occurred before the induction started, and the animation isn't interrupted by the induction. No skills can be used.

Activation - during this time, a green border surrounds the skill, and the skill animates. Only immediate skills may be used during this time. Staff strike's animation time is around 1 second or so. No auto-attacks should occur.

Global cooldown - at the beginning of this time, the skill's cooldown starts. Only fast and immediate skills may be used. Auto-attacks will occur normally. I think the hourglasses should be ticking down during this time, but I don't usually play with the skill queue visible. Staff strike's global cooldown is around 2 seconds or so. Enough time to get an auto-attack off.

Cooldown - skill's in cooldown, other skills can be used.


The pre-activation delay sounds like it's new, the global cooldown sounds completely normal. It's been there .. at least since Moria. Probably longer, but I wasn't looking into timings quite as much before then. I'm pretty sure there was still enough time to get an auto-attack off (that was easier to tell, actually, back then).

Most of the guardian skills that improve the responsiveness of guardian combat are fast skills, not immediate skills. They ignore the global cooldown, but can't interrupt the animation. Most of the reactives are fast skills, while the legendary reactives are not, which can be a bit disconcerting, because there's a delay/lack of smoothness that doesn't show up for the rest of the reactives. If you really want to see a long global cooldown on a guardian skill, use stomp, and then try using an non-fast, non-immediate skill afterwards. It seems like it takes forever. If you are advocating that the global cooldown be removed, it's roughly equivalent to advocating that all of our skills should be fast. The effect would be the same in either case.

Originally Posted by moebius92

Skills timings can be divided into four parts. They are...

If you are advocating that the global cooldown be removed, it's roughly equivalent to advocating that all of our skills should be fast. The effect would be the same in either case.

A very good compilation of breaking down timings and delays. Whether it is the animation or "global delay", the delay associated with SSw in particular is longer than SS and slows LM play down. This will be particularly important in boss/raid encounters where we are trying to conserve power and wanting to debuff, pass power, remove wounds/disease.

Some melee skills are faster than others and have shorter animations than others. This applies to all classes who have melee attacks.

My observation is that I can, as I always have been able to, string together skills almost immediately after the previous skill has activated. Having SS in the rotation has always slowed the rotation, but with an additional melee skill with a longer animation/delay/activation(whatever it is) creates a sluggish feel to skill rotations and LM play in general.

I am simply advocating a decrease in the amount of delay associated with the use of SSw.

The only argument I can come up with to convince myself that the delay is WAI, as Laguna mentioned, is that we are using a 2H attack with a sword as well so I suppose the delay is simply the slow animation.

Any dev want to say whether this delay is WAI tomorrow?

Originally Posted by Thorvaldheimdal

The only argument I can come up with to convince myself that the delay is WAI, as Laguna mentioned, is that we are using a 2H attack with a sword as well so I suppose the delay is simply the slow animation.

Any dev want to say whether this delay is WAI tomorrow?

Its almost a fair argument, but even for two-handers its REALLY slow. Its a bit of an excessive delay even if we were using the Moria combat system where there were the occasional 3.5 speed two-handers... but we are not... a staff sits around 2.5 speed if we are referencing that old system.

Staff Strike takes the normal time of a 2h weapon skill. The delay is a little bit more noticable because the animation is relatively quick.

Staff Sweep takes the normal time of a 2h weapon skill plus the time of a sword skill using the close to the same animation time as Staff Strike so the delay is even more noticeable.

I will reduce the delay but this will also reduce the damage done a little.

Honestly I'd prefer this to improve flow rather having the delay.

For the sake of expediency and so there aren't any muddy waters, I personally would be fine with it being main-hand weapon damage only. Having off-hand damage applied AND the speed of the sword applied is at variance to how dual-wielding is otherwise handled (weapon speeds were never added without being averaged before now).

The LM sword is has always been a function of additional auto-attack damage and some bonus stats. Its never really been useful as a viable means of attack, no real reason for that to change now IMO.

Originally Posted by Graalx2

Staff Strike takes the normal time of a 2h weapon skill. The delay is a little bit more noticable because the animation is relatively quick.

Staff Sweep takes the normal time of a 2h weapon skill plus the time of a sword skill using the close to the same animation time as Staff Strike so the delay is even more noticeable.

I will reduce the delay but this will also reduce the damage done a little.

Thanks Graal! As for reducing the damage a touch in return, I mean come on, it's not like we're suddenly going to be stealing aggro from champs or hunters with our mighty melee skills... *chuckle*

Originally Posted by Graalx2

Staff Strike takes the normal time of a 2h weapon skill. The delay is a little bit more noticable because the animation is relatively quick.

Staff Sweep takes the normal time of a 2h weapon skill plus the time of a sword skill using the close to the same animation time as Staff Strike so the delay is even more noticeable.

I will reduce the delay but this will also reduce the damage done a little.

Graalx2,

We have to use a legendary slot to even get the "3rd weapon" damage. That seems like a good investment to me to be able to get that extra damage without a skill delay. With the current delay I am not sure from my number crunching whether the dps from the skill is more than the present auto attack you would get for the length of the skill and its delay.

If it really has to a change to speed it up, could we perhaps just leave it but give us an immediate dps skill that helps the transition (I assume I am thinking about this correctly).

Originally Posted by JTollers

Graalx2,

We have to use a legendary slot to even get the "3rd weapon" damage. That seems like a good investment to me to be able to get that extra damage without a skill delay. With the current delay I am not sure from my number crunching whether the dps from the skill is more than the present auto attack you would get for the length of the skill and its delay.

If it really has to a change to speed it up, could we perhaps just leave it but give us an immediate dps skill that helps the transition (I assume I am thinking about this correctly).

Very important point made here. We have to actually slot a Legenday to be able to wield a sword and get the extra damage. The bonus damage would be nice to get as a result of using Sword and Staff.

I really appreciate the post Graal and thank you for helping us come to a common ground.

The damage reduction turned out not to be very noticeable, just a few points on main somewhat more on secondary. Now Staff Sweep with Staff and Sword will take about the same time as Staff Strike.

Originally Posted by Graalx2

The damage reduction turned out not to be very noticeable, just a few points on main somewhat more on secondary. Now Staff Sweep with Staff and Sword will take about the same time as Staff Strike.

Thank you. As far as I'm concerned you could remove the off-hand damage entirely and I'd be happy. We don't have any other skills that make use of it, so having off-hand dmg on one skill (and penalizing that skill in the speed department because of it) is rather pointless. DPS is the last thing I consider when choosing a sword for my LM anyway.

Originally Posted by JTollers

With the current delay I am not sure from my number crunching whether the dps from the skill is more than the present auto attack you would get for the length of the skill and its delay.

Main-hand + off-hand to three targets doesn't give higher DPS than an auto-attack against a single target? That is kind of hard to believe.

Using an AoE skill against a single target *should* be inefficient.

Originally Posted by Graalx2

The damage reduction turned out not to be very noticeable, just a few points on main somewhat more on secondary. Now Staff Sweep with Staff and Sword will take about the same time as Staff Strike.

Thanks Graal! Keep thinking about including SSw on the SS CD and making it Melee skills CD.

Originally Posted by Thorvaldheimdal

Thanks Graal! Keep thinking about including SSw on the SS CD and making it Melee skills CD.

Now that would be awesome.