All right, I'm new to this thread (do you know how long it takes to read 75+ pages of these riddles?) so I may be mistaken, but would that be Isil before Tilion was burned?
In Gimli's song (FotR):
"The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone."
All right, I'm new to this thread (do you know how long it takes to read 75+ pages of these riddles?) so I may be mistaken, but would that be Isil before Tilion was burned?
In Gimli's song (FotR):
"The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone."
Welcome indeed, iorviel! Not only have you answered correctly, but quite
poetically as well. You are up.
(And yes, it takes a long time to get through these riddle threads, but methinks the knowledge gained is well
earned.)
Like I told you... What I said...Steal your face right off your head.
hullo there! I'm also new so I'm not exactly sure how well I'm understanding these riddles but....
Anyway, as for my guess, it could be: The race of Man - this could come from the idea that the race of man weren't truly believers of the Valar?
Another more specific guess could be Turin? being that he was very faithless by the end and volunteered to slay Glaurung?
Third and final guess is Gollum, being that he sought to learn all the secrets of Middle-Earth, and volunteers to guide the bobbies to Mordor.
All right. Please be as patient with my first attempt as you were welcoming!
agnostic volunteer
Hmmm...this reminded me of part of a brief exchange between Gimli and Elrond when the Fellowship is departing Rivendell...
From FOTR
'Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens,' said Gimli.
'Maybe,' said Elrond, 'but let him not vow to walk in the dark who has not seen the nightfall.'
One of my favorite lil quips from the books!
The Crimson Burglar Squad - First you see Red...Then you are dead.
Tolkien uses "faithless" for "one who fails to keep faith," but that's not a good fit for "agnostic." There's another sense of the word that fits a different volunteer.
Just some thoughts about this clue that maybe will get others thinking in a hopefully "solving" direction.
I have noticed that Vilnas is usually very careful about punctuation and phrasing.
Since the second word "Bend" is using the upper case B, I am assuming that the answer is either a place-name or a character name. I am also thinking that the clue could be a translation of one of the elvish languages.
So far my searches have been unfruitful.
Like I told you... What I said...Steal your face right off your head.
Just some thoughts about this clue that maybe will get others thinking in a hopefully "solving" direction.
I have noticed that Vilnas is usually very careful about punctuation and phrasing.
Since the second word "Bend" is using the upper case B, I am assuming that the answer is either a place-name or a character name. I am also thinking that the clue could be a translation of one of the elvish languages.
So far my searches have been unfruitful.
I don't know whether to be alarmed or flattered that you know my tendencies so well. In either case, you are correct about the capitalization of Bend - I did that intentionally because the answer is a proper name.
New to this whole thread, so please excuse me when my guesses likely prove to be way out in left field
Maedhros comes to mind since all he had was a right hand, his left being cut off by Fingon...but I don't quite see how "Bend" would fit in...
My second guess (hope I'm not cheating?) would be Beleg...I seem to remember reading somewhere that he could "bend a bow" with more strength than any before him or after, and I figure he'd probably be right handed.
Seeing as nobody else has got it, I'll venture another wild and unlikely guess:
In the Music, Illuvatar several times raised his right hand to change the Music, and thus change the shaping of the world. I venture that, at one of these points, the raising of his "right-hand" is related to the "bending" of the world at the downfall of Numenor.
Good thing I'll never get this right, I'd never be able to come up with riddles of this quality.
That is a very good answer and it is a shame not to accept it. However, I think the "bending" you offer requires too much supposition. If nothing else, it requires us to accept that the fate of Numenor was predestined, and I am not sure that we can go there. Actually, I am keen to get the thoughts of the group on that point.
In the answer I have in mind, there is a direct connection between the solution and "Bend" - no inferences are required. If you can make that connection that there will be no doubt whatsoever about the solution. Unfortunately, the connection is not well known and is much easier to see working backward than forward. It may prove easier to gnaw on the other half of the riddle, although as I said that part may be misleading.
All that said, I am happy to accept answers that I didn't foresee if I feel that I cannot distinguish them on a fair basis.
it requires us to accept that the fate of Numenor was predestined, and I am not sure that we can go there. Actually, I am keen to get the thoughts of the group on that point.
Interesting line of thought, hadn't really looked at it like that. I suppose complete predetermination would kind of contradict Tolkien's whole world, i.e. Frodo never really had a decision whether to claim the ring or destroy it, etc. On the other hand, its also heavily implied that the Music itself was what shaped the world and its history, including time and events that occur within it. Very interesting...
Back on topic - if my answer was incorrect, please do not accept it. The onus is on me/us to get it right. With that - I must admit I have no other guess at this point. I will keep pondering.
I have long struggled with how best to reconcile the concept free will with Tolkien's works (recognizing of course that no work, however, great, can withstand the kind of minute scrutiny that we tend to subject his to). We are told that the Music of the Ainur shaped the world. Not only that, we are told that because of the Music the Ainur have some foreknowledge of things to come. In other words, the Music not only shaped the physical world, but in some way the Music either shaped or is a reflection of events in Middle-earth. Yet events are shaped by the choices of sentient beings. Consequently we must conclude that the Music either imposed some degree of constraints on the degree of free will that can be exercised by independent actors within that world.
I say that the Music either shaped or is a reflection of events in Middle-earth, and the direction of causality is obviously critical there. If the Music merely reflects events to come, then it is in the nature of a foreseeing rather than an act of creation.* I find that hard to reconcile with the overall import of the Ainulindale. For my part, I think it is clear that the Music indeed gave shape to the physical world rather than merely foreseeing the potential of the world. Taking that as "fact," it is difficult for me to then say that the events on that world which unfolded within the Music were not similarly shaped by it rather than having been merely foreseen.
* I think that for purposes of this discussion set aside the point that only Eru can actually create, and that it was Eru who cause the things wrought by the Music to "Be."
Of course, there are problems of causality inherent in the concept of mere foreseeing, but those seem to me to be susceptible to reconciliation with the concept of free will. By contrast, I don't know how you do that if the Music actually shaped events to come. Even if only the broad brushstrokes of events were "created" by the Music, doesn't at some level necessitate that individual actors make certain choices? Let us assume for the moment that Melkor's future choices were baked into the Music at the outset. Even then, don't we have to remove fundamental choices from the Eldar if we say that the Music established even the most simplistic road map for future events? What if Inwge, Finwe and Elwe do not decide to follow Orome to Valinor? What if Feanor chooses not to swear vengeance on Morgoth? Assume those figures make different choices and the entire history of the world is different.
Back on topic - if my answer was incorrect, please do not accept it. The onus is on me/us to get it right.
Well, what I meant is that many times there is no single "correct" answer. My view is that we are here to share a riddle/trivia game, not a "guess which of several solutions I am thinking of" game. If someone supplies an answer that works as well or better than the one I had in mind, that is on me for not designing a tight enough question. I just tip my hat and pass the riddle stick.
On the riddle, I'm totally stumped (I went down the river path, in case anyone's thinking that way, and it led me nowhere at all).
On the fate thing, there is this passage in "Of the Beginning of Days" that has always fascinated me. "'But the Quendi shall be the fairest . . . . But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else . . . . It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not." More interesting stuff follows, but I'll leave it at that.
This makes them, as Tolkien says in the same passage, seem to Elves more like Melkor than the other Valar. But Tolkien of course says that Iluvatar knows that the world made by this virtue (even though they misuse it) will be better than one totally fated by the Music.
-edit to add-
Rereading your post, Vilnas, I'm struck by another thing. Tolkien is highly aware that the Ainulindale is the creation story of the Eldar; he says throughout "it is said by the Eldar," "of those tumults the Elves know but little," etc. Perhaps the chroniclers aren't meant to fully understand the nature of the Music either, and this is their best effort at explaining it.
So would the question then be, how much is actually 'fated'? Was Voronwe fated to find Tuor? Was Fingon fated to rescue Maedhros? Or is it only on the most broad scale, i.e. the Elves are fated to fade in Middle Earth? I think I tend to lean towards the latter.
Back to the riddle. I've also tried the river route, same with mountains, roads, and coastlines, with no luck. I stared at it long enough I went from "Bend" to "B.end" to "Bag End", but I think that's probably a bit of a stretch, plus the road bends left into Bag End, not right.
My current line of thinking is that "right-hand" is referring more to a person/place of importance rather than an actual turn to the right. We'll see if that gets me anywhere.
Back to the riddle. I've also tried the river route, same with mountains, roads, and coastlines, with no luck. I stared at it long enough I went from "Bend" to "B.end" to "Bag End", but I think that's probably a bit of a stretch, plus the road bends left into Bag End, not right.
My current line of thinking is that "right-hand" is referring more to a person/place of importance rather than an actual turn to the right. We'll see if that gets me anywhere.
No, not Bag End, at least not in any way that I can see. I think you can get some mileage out of your efforts with natural features, but you must find a way to differentiate among them to pick a single correct answer.
While that is technically a solution, I think it is too "coincidental" for want of a better word. In my answer, the Bend in question is unquestionably the Bend, if you know what I mean. I guess this is one of those "best answer" riddles in the sense that there is a very clear way to distinguish one out of a number of possible answers. (e.g., Great Fortress => Belegost not Minas Tirith)
As for the first element of the clue, I will say again that it is somewhat misleading. Not only is there no literal hand involved, but more importantly "Right-hand" is not the usual way of expressing the concept you are looking for. However, I don't think it is too bad a stretch. Hopefully you will agree when the answer is finally revealed.
I'm with you, knUk20... I keep getting hung up on Forlindon, which (to me) looks like a right hand curving down over the Gulf of Lhun. This would be a very satisfying answer, if Lhun, or Lindon, or some such thing, meant "bend"... but of course they do not. I think I'm just hung up because "for" which means "North" in this instance, can also mean "right" (forya, etc). Maybe someone will get somewhere from that.
I like your interpretation of free will, but the passage seems to say there's some distinction between the fate of Elves and that of humans (not to mention dwarves!). So there must be, in essence, 3 (or at least two) separate kinds of free will. At the same time, it's hard to see Feanor's choices as part of the song...
I'm with you, knUk20... I keep getting hung up on Forlindon, which (to me) looks like a right hand curving down over the Gulf of Lhun. This would be a very satisfying answer, if Lhun, or Lindon, or some such thing, meant "bend"... but of course they do not. I think I'm just hung up because "for" which means "North" in this instance, can also mean "right" (forya, etc). Maybe someone will get somewhere from that.
Getting closer.
There is a place name that translates as "bend."
Here is the hint I threatened you with: Not everyone in Middle-earth would agree with my solution.
*Edit: On further consideration, my hint is too opaque. Let me modify it as follows:
Not everyone in Middle-earth would agree with my interpretation of one prong of the clue.
The clue has me going in two directions (and I say this for those that may have a better handle on the right place-name than I do, because I'm still getting nowhere).
1) Geographical perspective. Say there is a place named "Bend" that has two towers, or two peaks, and the clue designates the right-hand one (if you're standing in the right place). Some Quenya roots that might work here are cuna- and lok-.
2) Cultural perspective. Suppose "Bend" is referring to "Bent" as in corrupted (as is sometimes said of Morgoth's creatures). Then some people would think the place had been "bent" and some would not. "Bent" for corrupt might give you caurca- or raica-.
Of course there's still a possibility that the name itself is debated, but I think Vilnas is subtler than this. Likely subtler than what I'm suggesting, too.
You give me far to much credit, I'm afraid. The answer is very straightforward, although the "translation" is challenging. Once each element of the clue is translated, that is the answer right there.
Not being a language guru by any stretch of the imagination, I've done some searching, and here's what I've found so far, who knows if its accurate:
Right - "forya"
Right-handed - "formaite"
Bend - "lok"
Hand - "cam"
So literally stringing things together gives something along the lines of "forya cam lok" or "formaite lok." Again I'm about as good at language as a fish is at flying. Words that look kind of similar perhaps could include Forodwaith, Forochel, or even Foaloke. Foaloke seems the best of anything I've come up with, the 'lok' element relating to the dragons being 'bent' creatures of Morgoth. But from my digging it seems "Foa" means hoard, which I suppose makes sense referring to dragons, but doesn't match at all with "right-hand."
I'll start off with some shootin' from the hip guesswork. Osse will play the part of Noah (floods, waters, Osse fits that right? ). His guests are the Teleri, who were "stranded" on Tol Eressea for a long time, where they were often visited by Osse.
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Originally Posted by iorviel
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