LM pet appearances will be set by skills rather than amulets (http://www.warcry.com/news/view/1032...g-Free-to-Play)
"Raskolnikov: Sort of, we're introducing new appearances for the Eagle, Sabercat, and Bog-guardian. We're also changing around how Lore-masters can change their pet appearances: instead of needing to equip a necklace to change the way your pet looks, you'll now get a new separate skill."
About 90% of the changes will be buffs (same warcry dev-chat)
"Raskolnikov: ...having made a lot of changes to the Lore-master, I can say that 90% of those changes have been buffs. Our goal is to polish each class, and nearly all of the time when we polish it's by buffing a class (because nerfing stinks, even though it is sometimes necessary)."
Amglug, "Coldbear shall have his revenge. That is all."
The strategy used was essentially continual usage of Cracked Earth. I originally perceived this as a change to Coldbear, but now I believe it may be a change to LM's.
Last edited by Thorvaldheimdal; Oct 19 2010 at 03:02 PM.
"A Wizard is Never Late, Nor is He Early, He Arrives Precisely when He Means to."
Amglug, "Coldbear shall have his revenge. That is all."
The strategy used was essentially continual usage of Cracked Earth. I originally perceived this as a change to Coldbear, but now I believe it may be a change to LM's.
That was where my head was going Grin. I just hate the thought of potential nerfs due to a 1 hour stunt. Stunts are fun to do, but there's a reason they take one hour. They are not practical. CE is one of the best CC we have left.
Amglug, "Coldbear shall have his revenge. That is all."
The strategy used was essentially continual usage of Cracked Earth. I originally perceived this as a change to Coldbear, but now I believe it may be a change to LM's.
I had thought about that thread, but I didn't perceive it as a change coming to LMs. I thought Shauna's dead corpse might be lying outside the cave, or maybe he'd reflect CC effects back at the caster or something. They've already disabled the ability to do that, so nerfing LMs in some way because of it would be a shameful act of malice that I wouldn't expect from Turbine. I think it's going to be a change to Coldbear.
In the spirit of viewing the glass as half empty ... I wonder what's getting nerfed?
I think we're a strong class, but there is nothing like In Harm's Way that I can think of which might be viewed as trivializing content in its present form.
CC has already been nerfed indirectly in PvE and directly in PvP.
Our DPS is good, but I wouldn't say it's so good as to be a class balance issue.
Our heals, cures and support skills/traits are useful but I can't think of any that I'd consider OP (except Inner Flame, of course...). Stun dots have been implicitly nerfed by spamming stuns that ignore them, and they require significant effort to maintain group-wide. Power of Knowledge/Share the Power are unique, but hardly crying out for a nerf. And they mainly help *other* classes, anyway.
That leaves our debuffs. Again, they are very good (although a fair number of mobs are immune to Fire-Lore and warding circles). And our debuffs were just *un*-nerfed by a bug-fix, so it would suck if they got nerfed again, intentionally...
Sword and Staff might be a candidate for a nerf, since it is possibly the best legendary trait in the game, and almost nobody unslots it. Apart from a possible wish to make the legendaries more balanced with each other, though, I can't see any real justification for nerfing it. +300 Morale is pretty good, but high LM morale isn't such a big issue. +15% melee damage is also very nice, but again it's hard to see why it's a problem on a class that is primarily tactical (and wears light armor).
Master of the Staff might be nerfed into a fixed morale boost instead of a percentage - they just did the same to Captain banners and dev comments have suggested they don't like +% morale bonuses in general. They might make it something like +100 or +150 Morale, which would help lowbie LMs, but be a slight nerf for higher level. Now that I think of it, this one seems like a fairly good bet.
Our DPS is good, but I wouldn't say it's so good as to be a class balance issue.
ISG is the only one that I would consider bordering on OP. And I could see this being nerfed a little. You give up a lot to get it, but it can toss up some huge numbers on multiple targets with a very short cool down.
Sword and Staff might be a candidate for a nerf, since it is possibly the best legendary trait in the game, and almost nobody unslots it. Apart from a possible wish to make the legendaries more balanced with each other, though, I can't see any real justification for nerfing it. +300 Morale is pretty good, but high LM morale isn't such a big issue. +15% melee damage is also very nice, but again it's hard to see why it's a problem on a class that is primarily tactical (and wears light armor).
I'll have to double check the numbers in game but Martial Training for Rune Keepers is roughly the same (S&S is better of course, but MT is still reasonably close). Instead of being able to wield a sword they get ~ +90ICRP and some raw +power in addition to the +300 morale and +15% melee damage (again, I'll have to check my numbers in game since the LoreBook is useless for details).
However, it's not unheard of them to nerf a skill for one class while leaving a similar skill on a different class.
Master of the Staff might be nerfed into a fixed morale boost instead of a percentage - they just did the same to Captain banners and dev comments have suggested they don't like +% morale bonuses in general. They might make it something like +100 or +150 Morale, which would help lowbie LMs, but be a slight nerf for higher level. Now that I think of it, this one seems like a fairly good bet.
ISG is the only one that I would consider bordering on OP. And I could see this being nerfed a little. You give up a lot to get it, but it can toss up some huge numbers on multiple targets with a very short cool down.
How would you see a nerf to the skill? I'm guessing the change would come to cooldown and not damage, but maybe that's just me hoping for the least painful.
If ISG got nerfed too hard I don't think traiting all the way down Nature's Fury would be worth it. For one thing the traits from Ancient Master are really desirable, not to mention the 3 trait bonus. I could see a lot of players traiting 3NF/4AM or some heavy combination of AM for the debuffs. If KoA really does get a buff that makes it worth slotting maybe that will take up some slack as well. Even with Hardy Pet and other changes to KoA I don't see it offering the benefits of an AM/NF combination.
Originally Posted by Big_H
I'll have to double check the numbers in game but Martial Training for Rune Keepers is roughly the same (S&S is better of course, but MT is still reasonably close). Instead of being able to wield a sword they get ~ +90ICRP and some raw +power in addition to the +300 morale and +15% melee damage (again, I'll have to check my numbers in game since the LoreBook is useless for details).
However, it's not unheard of them to nerf a skill for one class while leaving a similar skill on a different class.
I guess this could be a candidate for a nerf, but I'm not sure why they would do it either. Right after Moria was released, and I hit 60, I ran without it for a week or so just to test it out. In a very caster heavy build with no melee it's not as much of a loss as it seems. The morale loss being the most noticeable hit.
Originally Posted by Big_H
Agreed, that's [master of the staff] a reasonable one too.
I could see the morale nerf I guess, but again I don't see how it's really OP. It's the debuffs and flank heals we have that let us melee effectively without crumbling.
What has made us OP historically is CC and debuffs. After CC has been nerfed into the ground we're really not so OP, unless you're talking about being able to handle medium groups of landscape mobs.
The one area that hasn't been mentioned is power costs. I can say that I rarely have power problems solo or grouped. I don't group often and don't raid at all anymore, but rare is the time I have power issues. I could see us getting increased power costs, and possible an increased modifier while traited Nature's Fury before I could see nerfs to any of the above traits or skills. It's also one of the first nerfs to hit a class when they get what are termed 'minor nerfs for balance'.
How would you see a nerf to the skill? I'm guessing the change would come to cooldown and not damage, but maybe that's just me hoping for the least painful.
Longer cool down. We can get the same kind of damage with Lightning but that's on a 5m cool down. Not a lot longer, but say 1m 30s wouldn't be over the line in my book.
I guess this could be a candidate for a nerf, but I'm not sure why they would do it either. Right after Moria was released, and I hit 60, I ran without it for a week or so just to test it out. In a very caster heavy build with no melee it's not as much of a loss as it seems. The morale loss being the most noticeable hit.
The morale loss and the loss of the stats on the sword are both reasonably big I'd say.
And here's the RK version:
I could see the morale nerf I guess, but again I don't see how it's really OP. It's the debuffs and flank heals we have that let us melee effectively without crumbling.
I wouldn't say it necessarily OP, but as Laguna said Turbine is favoring the ratings over the % now, so I could see it being changed, which would be a nerf to top end LMs (and a buff to lower end LMs probably).
The one area that hasn't been mentioned is power costs. I can say that I rarely have power problems solo or grouped. I don't group often and don't raid at all anymore, but rare is the time I have power issues. I could see us getting increased power costs, and possible an increased modifier while traited Nature's Fury before I could see nerfs to any of the above traits or skills. It's also one of the first nerfs to hit a class when they get what are termed 'minor nerfs for balance'.
That's a good possibility too.
I'm not saying any of this stuff NEEDS to be nerfed, just brainstorming what might be in that last 10% of non-buffs we'll be getting.
I hope the coldbear comment doesn't mean a change in effect to cracked earth. I had read in the past that they thought the AM decrease in duration of this was bordering on OP.
Longer cool down. We can get the same kind of damage with Lightning but that's on a 5m cool down. Not a lot longer, but say 1m 30s wouldn't be over the line in my book.
Lightning isn't a legendary capstone You don't have to give anything up to get it. Tripling the cooldown of any skill, especially one that you have to give up so much to get, is an extremely large nerf.
You guys are funny... let's talk about what MIGHT get nerfed where the devs can see it. Ideas can help - and harm. Let's just end the nerf discussion now.
Irin: Rank 7 Hunter // Arngar: Rank 8 Burg // Akthuri: Rank 13 LM // Curad: Rank 4 Mini
We're not nerfing Lore-masters because of Cold-bear.
We're not nerfing "Master of the Staff".
We're not nerfing "Sword and Staff".
The only reason I'm not saying "We didn't nerf anything," is because I'm sure some people will perceive something as a nerf. "I can't believe you nerfed 'Knowledge of the Lore-master' so that it can't be used in combat anymore!"
If ISG got nerfed too hard I don't think traiting all the way down Nature's Fury would be worth it.
I agree. I don't PvP, but in the PvE world, I just don't see our damage as being far out of line or causing issues. We are not competing with the dedicated DPS classes. A 10% downward tweak on ISG's damage, meh. But substantially increasing the c/d would suck.
Originally Posted by FyreBrand
The one area that hasn't been mentioned is power costs. I can say that I rarely have power problems solo or grouped. I don't group often and don't raid at all anymore, but rare is the time I have power issues. I could see us getting increased power costs, and possible an increased modifier while traited Nature's Fury before I could see nerfs to any of the above traits or skills. It's also one of the first nerfs to hit a class when they get what are termed 'minor nerfs for balance'.
Ironically, Nature's Fury has the two traits that *decrease* our power costs.
This is possible, I suppose, but unless they really hit us hard, it looks like pointless fine-tuning to me. The power costs of our debuffs are already extremely high. If you group and/or raid, power can certainly be an issue. We tend to do fine on power ourselves since so many of our skills have long cooldowns, we have big power pools, and good ICPR. We are supposed to be the power managers in groups; I'm not sure what sort of balance issue would be addressed.
The only reason I'm not saying "We didn't nerf anything," is because I'm sure some people will perceive something as a nerf. "I can't believe you nerfed 'Knowledge of the Lore-master' so that it can't be used in combat anymore!"
Uh... is this the best hypothetical (at least in isolation)? I'm pretty sure there's at least a couple bosses that aren't attackable until combat starts, which means if KotLM only worked out of combat, and you still couldn't scan non-attackable mobs, there'd be a bunch of bosses that wouldn't be scannable at all.
"I can't believe you nerfed 'Knowledge of the Lore-master' so that it can't be used in combat anymore!"
OMG Rask, how could you?!
But seriously: Moebius is right, unless other changes are made to mobs that start in drama mode (like many bosses), or unless you are just joking, this would indeed be a pretty real nerf.
Lightning isn't a legendary capstone You don't have to give anything up to get it. Tripling the cooldown of any skill, especially one that you have to give up so much to get, is an extremely large nerf.
You don't have to give up anything to use Lightning, but then it's got 10x the cool down of ISG (and has to pass through an extra resist check because you need the armour rend on the mob, plus another check for each strike). I don't think tripling the CD of ISG is more than a small nerf, because honestly how many times do you use this skill in any given 1m30s period? Solo, you drop it once and the mob(s) are dead before the CD is up. Group, you drop it once then you have other duties, debuffs, other DPS skills, limited CC, power, etc.
It's a large nerf by itself on paper, but in practice it's not that big with all the other skills we have. At the end of the day, this is a skill that does a LOT of damage, on a 30 second CD.
We're not nerfing Lore-masters because of Cold-bear.
We're not nerfing "Master of the Staff".
We're not nerfing "Sword and Staff".
The only reason I'm not saying "We didn't nerf anything," is because I'm sure some people will perceive something as a nerf. "I can't believe you nerfed 'Knowledge of the Lore-master' so that it can't be used in combat anymore!"
Rask, I seriously love all the amount of feedback you give to the community, but that is really the most fail example Ive read in a long time, as that would be a serious nerf actually...
Rask, I seriously love all the amount of feedback you give to the community, but that is really the most fail example Ive read in a long time, as that would be a serious nerf actually...
A serious nerf? Your kidding. You use it what? Once on a boss, in total. Ever. Then its pulled of your toolbar to rot in the back ground till the next new boss rolls out.
If that much. I've not used it on a mob in months and months and months. I can only remember two times ever getting another LM in kin to use it on a mob in a raid in the last year plus.
Its a useless skill, the info is not all that useful anyhow. I mean, your staring at a Undead boss, we already know what type of dmg to use on him, even more, it doesn't matter what type of dmg you use we are talking about 1 point of dmg anyhow.
Just saying, serious nerf is a bit much. Making Knowlage of the LM OOC only doesn't mean its a nerf. How do you know they havebn't buffed it in addition to the OOC flag?
Maybe they buffed it in such a way that its SOOOOO GOOD that they had to make it OOC only.
Well no, no useless. But making it OOC only would indeed make it useless on bosses like Durchest, which are greened out and/or too far away to scan before you get into combat. Durchest would never, ever be scannable, which would be ... silly. I also don't use it often, but there's no point in making it OOC only. Using it in combat does not offer any kind of advantage, unless you're right and they've added some extra functionality.
Anyway, it's only a hypothetical example until proven otherwise.
ISG is more than fine there's no reason to nerf (and they aren't)
Master of the Staff - again as Ras mentioned no nerf
Sword and Staff - fine
8-time Grand Champion Guinness Drinker June 2008 model in "Failmasters of 2008" Calendar Making the world a better place one less pair of pants at a time
Maybe Turbine thinks those boss fights are being trivialized or at least made too easy with KotLM. It could be that the content designers want to make raid tactics less obvious and require a bit more effort in strategy to figure out. Dunno, just throwing that out there along with all the other brainstorm ideas.
@Laguna - I would be surprised to see a power cost increase as well. I threw that out there as another idea. I also agree it would be puzzling because, as you said, our debuff costs are high (at least I consider them high) and Nature's Fury has traits for power reduction. But like I said, I rarely have power issues unless my party has a zero concept of personal power management. Outside of raids that specifically target power as a challenge, it would surprise me of most lore-masters have power issues. I base this subjectively since I'm probably the most mediocre LM that posts regularly on these forums.
I will be interested in seeing what Turbine thinks is OP in the world of LMs because I consider them one of the most well rounded and balanced classes in the game. Even wardens, which can seemingly tank the world, don't seem too OP to me because it takes them an entire age to do it and a whole slew of consumables to keep downtime to a minimum.
lol! I bet Rask is ./facedesking right now for even saying something. Thank you for not nerfing the great skills/traits that we have
As for power of the loremaster, if that's even getting nerfed... Honestly how many of you guys actually use that skill first of all? Secondly it was probably just an example. Thirdly, out of all the skills that could be nerfed I'd definitely pick that one. I think I've used it all of 5x and that's just to see how it worked. You can easily find out if a boss is CC immune within the first few seconds of a fight. As far as damage types, undead = westernesse, beleriand = orcs, the rest no one uses and/or you can figure it out with a few simple tests.
Kamriel 75 CHN, Kamsterr 75 LM, HideHobitsHere Bear Tank Extraordinaire
Sure KotLM is not a frequently used or especially useful skill...so why nerf it? If he wasn't simply kidding, it probably *is* getting some kind of additional effect. Let's hope the original (weak, but unique) aspect of the skill still works though.
Originally Posted by JTollers
Maybe it will work on inactive mobs now and maybe it's getting a second level effect that they don't want us to use.
Hopefully you're right on the first part. I suppose a debuff that's restricted to OOC is imaginable (Song of Distraction is the only vaguely similar thing I can think of, but who knows).
We're not nerfing Lore-masters because of Cold-bear.
We're not nerfing "Master of the Staff".
We're not nerfing "Sword and Staff".
The only reason I'm not saying "We didn't nerf anything," is because I'm sure some people will perceive something as a nerf. "I can't believe you nerfed 'Knowledge of the Lore-master' so that it can't be used in combat anymore!"
Honestly, i hope that the KotLM change is just a random thing popping out of Rask's head.
Since KotLM is mostly used on bosses, and most bosses start on drama mode, it would make the skill virtually useless...
Razor // Lusitanius // Crickhollow ~ Portuguese Kinship
Galahriel - Napalm Shooter / Razortip - Forsaken Hunter / Stormrune - Rune Healer Staff Strike! - A Lore-Master class guide and blog (on hiatus).
Do you all seriously believe he was talking about a real change?...
If it's real, and that counts as a 10% nerf, our 90% buffs should be awesome!
Seriously, I may use that skill once every few weeks. It really doesn't need to be on my toolbars. The question is... If this is real, will the Lothlorien scrolls work in combat as a replacement? I've never used those, so I don't know if they work in combat.
Rask awesome feedback! WE appreciate all the information you give us...every single bit. Keep up the great job in keeping all us LMs engaged, motivated, and informed.
We're not nerfing Lore-masters because of Cold-bear.
We're not nerfing "Master of the Staff".
We're not nerfing "Sword and Staff".
The only reason I'm not saying "We didn't nerf anything," is because I'm sure some people will perceive something as a nerf. "I can't believe you nerfed 'Knowledge of the Lore-master' so that it can't be used in combat anymore!"
I can't believe you nerfed my baby polar bear by making him even smaller
Sure KotLM is not a frequently used or especially useful skill...so why nerf it? If he wasn't simply kidding, it probably *is* getting some kind of additional effect. Let's hope the original (weak, but unique) aspect of the skill still works though.
Hopefully you're right on the first part. I suppose a debuff that's restricted to OOC is imaginable (Song of Distraction is the only vaguely similar thing I can think of, but who knows).
Maybe the skill oversimplifies tactics and the approach to the most difficult raid bosses. Maybe they want those bosses to remain more of a mystery and require greater effort with regards to figuring out a strategy. That is the reasoning I could figure if that was in fact a hint.
Originally Posted by Raewulf
Do you all seriously believe he was talking about a real change?...
Who knows. It's all conjecture at this point, but it's kind of fun examining class balance and structure from different angles. It may have just been an example or it may have been one of several hints we've been given over the past few weeks. Hashing that stuff over is interesting for some of us.
Maybe the skill oversimplifies tactics and the approach to the most difficult raid bosses. Maybe they want those bosses to remain more of a mystery and require greater effort with regards to figuring out a strategy. That is the reasoning I could figure if that was in fact a hint.
If it displayed the source code of the target mobs' scripts (many written of them written by Rask?!) then it might do what you suggest...
But as of now, it doesn't "oversimplify" anything.
How many pages did the Durchest Aggro thread get up to on the Instances forum? 30? 40?
Just saying, serious nerf is a bit much. Making Knowlage of the LM OOC only doesn't mean its a nerf. How do you know they haven't buffed it in addition to the OOC flag?
I'm looking forward to seeing the LM changes. I especially want to get rid of my amulets.
Personally, I've always thought KotLM needed a secondary use. Finding out the mob info is nice and all, but I barely use it since that info confuses me a bit. I've hoped that it would eventually act as a precursor to my skills. Like using it would amplify my attacks since I've just learned it's weakness.
Perhaps that's the proposed give and take. It gives you an advantage in battle, but has to be used prior to engagement. I would use that every time if so!!
I'm looking forward to seeing the LM changes. I especially want to get rid of my amulets.
Personally, I've always thought KotLM needed a secondary use. Finding out the mob info is nice and all, but I barely use it since that info confuses me a bit. I've hoped that it would eventually act as a precursor to my skills. Like using it would amplify my attacks since I've just learned it's weakness.
Perhaps that's the proposed give and take. It gives you an advantage in battle, but has to be used prior to engagement. I would use that every time if so!!
I've been hoping for a while that they'll make it tell you more about what the mob is currently doing. Like, say... have the info screen provide a couple colored circles with ability tool tips that describe what the mob can do, and then have it also apply a debuff that causes an appropriately colored circle to pop up whenever it's using one of the skills.
I'll start by saying I am fairly new to LOTRO (my LM is only lvl 34), but certainly not new to MMOs.
As a whole, I appreciate the LM class and am excited about the updates.
I'm skeptical about gaining levels too fast though because I'm really nervous about LI's. Just confusing to me. It seems to me I should want only 1A LI's since they're "better"? Too much... a topic for another thread.
BUT! The reason I logged in and am commenting on these forums for the first time is that Rask (whom I also appreciate) posted this:
"We're not nerfing Lore-masters because of Cold-bear.
We're not nerfing "Master of the Staff".
We're not nerfing "Sword and Staff".
The only reason I'm not saying "We didn't nerf anything," is because I'm sure some people will perceive something as a nerf. "I can't believe you nerfed 'Knowledge of the Lore-master' so that it can't be used in combat anymore!" "
My concern here is this, from just a few posts before that ^ one:
"I hope the coldbear comment doesn't mean a change in effect to cracked earth. I had read in the past that they thought the AM decrease in duration of this was bordering on OP. "
So Rask, can we get a "We're not nerfing 'Cracked Earth'" please?
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Originally Posted by Thorvaldheimdal
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