Thread: Why Warhammer Failed....according to a laid-off employee

For those who haven't already seen it, this opinion piece has been stirring up a lot of comment in gaming quarters (in part for what the guy said about SWTOR, which he is NOT working on....). It's interesting reading, as are the comments and other associated posts. It's not a balanced point of view, of course. The story was Slashdotted yesterday. Follow their link to read it, and related discussion.

http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/1...from=headlines

Interesting read. Wonder how much is truth and how much is a laid out employee grousing. Though I can say that my cousin who worked at EA for a while probably wouldn't dispute a thing that's said.

I know that those that think that SW:ToR is going to be the second coming probably won't like or believe what he says.

Interesting article. Thanks for the link. It would truly be sad if SW:TOR was a Fail, but in two years now, aside from some cool videos which anyone can do for the most part, I haven't seen one bit come out of the game that blows me away. So a SW:TOR fail would not surprise me.

In all honesty, if Turbine would simply fix the Moors, I wouldn't have a need or desire to play any other game. I would be happy right here.



BTW...I hate the new Forums. I mean...I really, really hate them.

Interesting article. Thanks for the link. It would truly be sad if SW:TOR was a Fail, but in two years now, aside from some cool videos which anyone can do for the most part, I haven't seen one bit come out of the game that blows me away. So a SW:TOR fail would not surprise me.

In regard to the article itself, you see this type of stuff all the time from anonymous bloggers. Who's to know what's true and what isn't. It is an interesting perspective, but in the end, could be sheer nonsense. We do know for a fact, however, that WarHammer is a Fail (although I do like their PvP combat system).

In all honesty, if Turbine would simply fix the Moors, I wouldn't have a need or desire to play any other game. I would be happy right here.



BTW...I hate the new Forums. I mean...I really, really hate them.

Reading would have been more.. interesting if "Louse" provided his name, or at least what his position was/is. There's really nothing in there that a "gofer" couldn't have picked up from the water cooler chit-chat.

Originally Posted by JeanCarlo

Reading would have been more.. interesting if "Louse" provided his name, or at least what his position was/is. There's really nothing in there that a "gofer" couldn't have picked up from the water cooler chit-chat.

Jean, that is a really, really good point.

BTW, I hate the new forums too. I really, honestly hate them with the passion of a thousand burning suns.

Originally Posted by sirwillow

Wonder how much is truth and how much is a laid out employee grousing

EA has a suspicious track record .... but for some reason I can't really define, the rant from "EA Louse" felt more like less-than-well-informed flames than serious criticism. So your question is excellent, & I wish there was a way to get more info, one way or the other.

Frankly, the claim that SW:TOR is going to be the biggest "failure" in MMO history made me think it was "sour grapes", because I simply can't believe it's going to fail worse than Horizons, Darkfall Online, Shadowbane, or any of the other dozens of "giant-killers" that sucked. I'm not going to play SW:TOR, because I cordially loathe all things Star Wars, but I'm also a Bioware FanBoy, & I refuse to believe they could produce a game that isn't awesome.

Well, as for Mark Jacobs "leaving" EA Games, I doubt that it was forced.

EA Games has had quite a sordid and questionable past. However, the restructuring between EA/Mythic/Bioware was perhaps one of the smartest moves that was done. EA/Mythic/Bioware is not the EA Games of 10 years ago.

However, although Mark's departure did come as a surprise to some (even to the CIO of EA/Mythic/Bioware who was another long-time partner of Mark, since 1987 or thereabouts) it is true that Mark was none too pleased with the inevitable course that things were headed with the restructuring. He made a risky move selling out to EA Games (after paying for the development of DAoC out of his own personal pocket when Mythic was on the verge of bankruptcy), and ultimately paid the price for it many years later. Mythic was his pride and joy. Handing the reigns over to EA hurt, and when the restructuring began he realized he was never going to get the level of control over his baby Mythic again. He didn't speak out when he left because he most likely didn't hold any ill-will towards EA, but more likely because he knew he had gotten there through choices of his own, for good or bad, for better or for worse.

Mark now gets to join the ranks of other MMO giants like Richard Garriott and Bill Roper and gets to start over anew, on his own terms, without having to compromise his vision...which is precisely what catapulted Mythic to the top Tier in the first place...and precisely the kind of scenario Mark would most likely prefer (I just can't imagine that being a "Corporate Lackey" ever suited Mark even if EA gave him a certain amount of freedom he still had to appease someone other than himself and give in to compromise after compromise).

However, the general reservations about Rob as COO are definitely spot-on from what I understand, although Ray is generally well liked and respected (at least on the Bioware side of things...I can understand if there is a feeling of distrust amongst the Mythic ranks).

However, the COO and GMs are generally regarded as slave-drivers by their employees especially when it is crunch-time and release is nearing nigh.

Warhammer did indeed fail because it was drastically behind schedule and released according to schedule even though it was not yet ready. Had they been given another year to finish the product before release, Warhammer may have been far more successful. That's the same story as a lot of MMOs. It's Mistake #1 in the genre, but the truth is that a game in development doesn't make any money. Far more game companies go bankrupt hoping to finish development before the money runs out, but never do. For every MMO that is released prematurely and fails there are 3 other MMOs that never see the light of day because they go the other route and refuse to release until their product is ready. The trick is finding a balance between the two.

And that is why so much is riding on SW:ToR. With a price-tag of $300 Million and counting, the pressure is mounting to release on schedule, ready or not, in an attempt to recoup the majority of those development costs. Ready or not, it will go to release on schedule. If Warhammer was forced out on schedule, ready or not, on but one-tenth of the production cost, you can be certain that EA will do the same with SW:ToR. Cannibalizing one project to save another that is 10x more expensive, and outsourcing to meet milestones, are just names of the game at this stage. It might not make friends or make employees happy, but when you are $300 Million vested in a game and aren't ready for release, that's what has to be done to try and save the game before it becomes DoA.

Let's just hope it isn't too little too late...and that SW:ToR will be ready for release on schedule instead of being shoved out the door unready as was done to WAR.

I believe the mmo industry is upside down. It used to be they created their vision and let the chips fall for they may but now it's big business and 300k subs isn't enough. This is greed pure and simple and it's changed the way games get made. What was once an art form is now a money-making machine and it shows in most mmo these days unless they start small and work themselves up (like eve) so it's never meant to make billions but more just put out a game that folks love and not go bankrupt. In my opinon if you can't make it work with 300k subs then the folks behind the games are doing something wrong and need to find new lines of work. I play for the virtual worlds to get lost in and not just grind my way up the status line. And I won't play a game that does this unless there is a niche for me in their somewhere (like lotro where I can pvmp and enjoy myself even though it's mostly a forgotten part of the game and dissed if spoken of in terms of being part of the game).

It's sort of like the world of art...great art vs highly valued art for moneys sake. They can be the same thing and then again they seem to be at odds. I don't know. I just play games.

Mythic Entertainment was pure genius until EA got involved.

EA is trash and kills anything it lays its hands out except its rehashed sports games that just won't die.

Originally Posted by criosdaidh22

Mythic Entertainment was pure genius until EA got involved.

EA is trash and kills anything it lays its hands out except its rehashed sports games that just won't die.

This, pretty much. Warhammer Online was shaping up nicely to be a quirky, unique alternative to the Wow monster that just won't die, and EA decided to try and make it WoW 2, shipped it early against Burning Crusade (lol) and we all know what happened from there.

It is very sad, because it had so much potential, and it got destroyed by execs chasing the quick buck, much like AoC (despite what anyone says, that game has the seeds of greatness, they were just never allowed to flourish).

Eve is a funny example, because while CCP has always done it their way, and not compromised, they are also working on the highly commercial WoD MMO, which has everyone wetting their panties, but I can guarantee that they will play a very different game on this one than they did on Eve. CCP has acquired White Wolf's intellectual property, and will want a considerable return for their investment, and won't be content to run it how they run Eve.

I do think that Old Republic will be total and utter trash, but without some more specifics from EA Louse, his post seems more like second hand knowledge, or someone low enough on the totem pole not to know what is actually going on.


I though WAR had potential too, but just like AoC, it obviously shipped too early and just stunk up the place (AoC how you broke my heart!).

I also think it's stupid that an MMO is not "successful" these days without 40 gazillion subs and raking in billions a year, when basic math shows that even an moderate amount of subs can keep a game going and running well if the company behind it has any know-how (Thanks Turbine! Truly!)

Exactly- WoW has set an impossible benchmark that shareholders/execs expect from any product their company delivers; a game is written off as an unmitigated failure if it doesn't rake in millions of subs, which is ludicrous. Only a very small percentage of the world's population have the time or inclination to play an MMO, and even fewer still to play 'niche' MMOs, that cater to a specific setting or demographic.

Instead of being seen as the incredible fluke it was, WoW is seen as the norm, and a lot of good games are being routinely sacrificed in a pathetic attempt to recreate the WoW success.

You know what I find interesting? Its an employee thats just been laid off by a company and is probably pretty ticked off bashing the company in every way they can, and yet people take anything they say seriously.

Originally Posted by Mircea12345

You know what I find interesting? Its an employee thats just been laid off by a company and is probably pretty ticked off bashing the company in every way they can, and yet people take anything they say seriously.

It's still likely to be better information than that from people who are still employed.

Originally Posted by Ceifwien

Eve is a funny example, because while CCP has always done it their way, and not compromised, they are also working on the highly commercial WoD MMO, which has everyone wetting their panties, but I can guarantee that they will play a very different game on this one than they did on Eve. CCP has acquired White Wolf's intellectual property, and will want a considerable return for their investment, and won't be content to run it how they run Eve.

I do hope you're wrong on this point. If the big kids in CCP can let WoD run at it's own pace like they did with EVE, they will add another continuously successful game to their stable (Particularly with microtransactions coming to CCP as well.) which will add to their corporate profits for years to come.

If, on the other hand, they expect WoDO to meet or beat a 1m subscription base after two quarters... If they try and rush it into stores and stiff the production times... They will epic fail. Just like Star Trek Online is thinking. Just like what happened to Matrix Online.

However, doing those things is NOT in the corporate attitude in CCP. And seeing as how Mike Tinney stayed on as President of CCP NA/White Wolf, this is still his baby in his shop.

Ignore the Time of Judgement/The Day The Rules Got Shafted. We all do. Even, according to some of what I've heard, WoDO itself.

Originally Posted by Amagaim

I do hope you're wrong on this point. If the big kids in CCP can let WoD run at it's own pace like they did with EVE, they will add another continuously successful game to their stable (Particularly with microtransactions coming to CCP as well.) which will add to their corporate profits for years to come.

If, on the other hand, they expect WoDO to meet or beat a 1m subscription base after two quarters... If they try and rush it into stores and stiff the production times... They will epic fail. Just like Star Trek Online is thinking. Just like what happened to Matrix Online.

However, doing those things is NOT in the corporate attitude in CCP. And seeing as how Mike Tinney stayed on as President of CCP NA/White Wolf, this is still his baby in his shop.

Ignore the Time of Judgement/The Day The Rules Got Shafted. We all do. Even, according to some of what I've heard, WoDO itself.

Honestly, my big love has always been Star Wars with Star Trek coming a close second. They destroyed Star Trek and I was annoyed. They ruin Star Wars and I'll be livid.

But neither of those even remotely compares to the WOD. The fact that they're using Old WOD is a very good thing in my book. Its my favorite game, above all others both computer and pen and paper. I badly badly want to play an MMO in the WOD.

BUT.. and this is a huge massive "but" that there aren't even proper font sizes for... they better not screw it up and throw in idiotic **** that has no place in the WOD. WOD is good the way it is. We don't need 90210 WOD, and we don't need WoW WOD. We need WOD to be WOD. In other words, they need to create a completely new game with the same basic controls. And they need to not screw over the story when they do it.

It lends itself perfectly to PvP but only if its done right. The game can't have everyone killing each other in the streets in full view of the kine for example. There needs to be controls in place for this and its not going to be easy.

If they bomb it, I'll be very angry.

Originally Posted by Darmokk

It's still likely to be better information than that from people who are still employed.

Truth!

I noticed the personal blog of the Chief Officers of EA-Mythic-Bioware had a link to that post with the solitary commentary "Wha?" I'm sure those further down the ladder who have to carefully tow the PR line would have put it in other terms a bit more sanitized.

Originally Posted by Mircea12345

The fact that they're using Old WOD is a very good thing in my book.

BUT.. and this is a huge massive "but" that there aren't even proper font sizes for... they better not screw it up and throw in idiotic **** that has no place in the WOD. WOD is good the way it is. We don't need 90210 WOD, and we don't need WoW WOD. We need WOD to be WOD. ... And they need to not screw over the story when they do it.

Wait, it's OWOD? I might actually jump for that. Can't stand the NWOD. Took everything that was good (Garou) from the OWOD and chucked it out the window, and kept everything that was terrible (the overall system and vampires, in order of malignancy). I did like the emphasis on the pack vs. the sept, though. Septs never made much sense.

That said, agreed. There'd better be a damn strong mechanic for protecting the Veil (and whatever the leech equivalent of it is), since that was a central theme of the setting.

I just hope they don't encourage the Big Furry Superheroes thing; Exalted exists for a reason, and it's to keep superhero themes out of the WOD.

Originally Posted by CWood

Wait, it's OWOD? I might actually jump for that. Can't stand the NWOD. Took everything that was good (Garou) from the OWOD and chucked it out the window, and kept everything that was terrible (the overall system and vampires, in order of malignancy). I did like the emphasis on the pack vs. the sept, though. Septs never made much sense.

That said, agreed. There'd better be a damn strong mechanic for protecting the Veil (and whatever the leech equivalent of it is), since that was a central theme of the setting.

I just hope they don't encourage the Big Furry Superheroes thing; Exalted exists for a reason, and it's to keep superhero themes out of the WOD.

Yep. They announced it here in New Orleans in September. Its OWOD. I'm so excited, you can't imagine. They so totally screwed up with NWOD. Game mechanics are better but it wasn't the mechanics that made me fall in love with it. Its such a rich interesting mythology in OWOD. Such a truly fascinating world. My big one was always VTM, and thats the first one they're releasing with the other games to follow after as expansions.

I think White Wolf totally screwed themselves with NWOD and they didn't realize how angry it would make the fans until it was too late. If CCP could, I think they'd turn back the block. My hope is that they are simply going to order WW to go back to the OWOD and just release a 3.0 edition.

when WoD did the setting shift, you saw a LOT of old gameing settings with huge eistablished Lore doing funky things to try and move away from the Lore in an attempt to bring in new players "intimidated by the lore"
WoD did this, around the same time WOTC decided to move to 4th edition, and do the whole 4th edition realms time jump. Battletech likewise did a time jump (and I have it on good authority that the property owners, after FASA closed it's door, Wizkids, wanted to be even more extreme then they where)

over all, these massive setting changes where failures.

the new world of darkness setting isn't as well Liked,
Wizkids failed (luckly the classic battletech game is still being published)
and I've got no clue how 4th edition FR is doing but I know I stopped haveing any intrest in the realms after that.

making these changes to bring in new blood is hugely risky because you gotta factor for all the old guard you'll loose over such massive changes. and NWOD was worse then any of the others because at least FR and Btech just time jumped

Originally Posted by BrianDavion

and NWOD was worse then any of the others because at least FR and Btech just time jumped

Sorta. At least for BattleTech, the game shifted genres, from a somewhat complex strategy game to a Click-'em, Stick-'em Robots game that bore no resemblance to the original. That's what killed it in my opinion; it was essentially downgrading from chess or Go to Chutes and Ladders. Nobody who liked BattleTech liked the click game, and nobody who liked the click game had even heard of BattleTech. From what I've read of the setting (and it wasn't much; seems WhizKids doesn't really care about that stuff), I think it (meaning just the setting) would have been fairly well accepted if Fasa had released it (they really had a knack for good, if campy, settings). The general theme is a lot more like what I always imagined the Succession Wars should have been like.

Aside: Halvr is a dyed-in-the-wool Locust pilot. Just to warn you.

I've heard D&D 4th Edition really mucked the rules up something fierce, but since I gave up on D&D shortly after V3.0 was released, I couldn't say.

NWOD, on the other hand, the game mechanics actually improved (pretty unarguably so). The setting itself actually had a lot of interesting ideas, too (at least for werewolves), but they dropped the ball on realizing it. The potential for a setting with depth equal to the OWOD was buried in there somewhere, under all the foil-embossed covers, incongruous or contradictory fluff*, and untapped themes**.

*-Example: Werewolves in "big-n-furry" form are crazed, unstoppable killing machines. Several pictures in the book show them setting calmly around with feathers and braids in their hair, reading books and discussing golf. Doesn't really jive up there, guys.

**-Example: Werewolves were basically the "police" that keep the world of spirits and the world of humans from interacting. Only problem is, humans were all poor, dejected victims and spirits were all terrible monsters, so the only story available was to go into the "bad side of town" and bust some heads. Left a real bad taste in your mouth even playing the game, let alone running it. All they'd have need to do to fix that is make humans just as (potentially) bad as spirits, and spirits just as (potentially) good as humans and it'd have been great.

Actually, there's a much more obvious reason for Warhammer's failure, which so far as I can tell nobody has touched on.

It reason is that EA/Mythic didn't include Skaven as a playable race.

I'm not joking, making light, or being facetious. The lack of playable Skaven is a travesty that is on beyond FAIL. They are one of the more iconic Warhammer races, & yet it's even difficult to find them in-game, much less as a playable race.

Implementing them now is pointless; the game has already utterly tanked. If I'd been in charge of Warhammer Online, there would have been THREE factions, not just two -- IMO, only two factions is epic FAIL almost as bad as no Skaven -- & I would have put Skaven, Greenbloods, & Vampires in it. The Destruction side would then be Chaos, Beastmen, & Dark Elves. But sadly, nobody at EA/Mythic asked my opinion.

& yes, I admit, even those factions wouldn't have been "right", IMO -- especially the Skaven/Greenblood/Vampire thing, which stinks of a "throw-together" that wouldn't have flown, lore-wise. But IMO, lore-wise, there probably should not be real "factions" at all in a Warhammer Online game; too many of the races currently lumped together were, at best, highly suspicious of one another. I even think that Dark Elves, Skaven, Greenbloods, & the Empire should have been factions of their own, perhaps "allied" to others, but not necessarily "friendly" to them. But I guess that would have made for a much more complicated coding exercise, which is probably why they didn't do it that way.

However, because of the failure of Warhammer Online, I have absolutely no hope at all for the rumored Warhammer 40K MMO. I can just imagine what lore travesties are going to infest that project!

Originally Posted by CWood

Sorta. At least for BattleTech, the game shifted genres, from a somewhat complex strategy game to a Click-'em, Stick-'em Robots game that bore no resemblance to the original. That's what killed it in my opinion; it was essentially downgrading from chess or Go to Chutes and Ladders. Nobody who liked BattleTech liked the click game, and nobody who liked the click game had even heard of BattleTech. From what I've read of the setting (and it wasn't much; seems WhizKids doesn't really care about that stuff), I think it (meaning just the setting) would have been fairly well accepted if Fasa had released it (they really had a knack for good, if campy, settings). The general theme is a lot more like what I always imagined the Succession Wars should have been like.

Aside: Halvr is a dyed-in-the-wool Locust pilot. Just to warn you.

that's ok just so long as Halvr isn't a Capellan we'll get along fine

but yeah wizkids flubbed the handling of things, luckly the battletech players still had the game to fall back on (given your link you see familer with that ) and things are working a bit better, although not perfectly, I agree 100% had FASA not handed it off to WK the dark ages could have worked. Wizkids kinda failed in the background department and by time they got it right Btech fans had made up their minds. the fact that the inital batch of MWDA books where complete **** until Sword of Sedition came out simply didn't help matters.

so yeah it's proably intresting to see the switch back to old WoD, and one wonders if they will be followed suit by the table top RPG

Originally Posted by BrianDavion

that's ok just so long as Halvr isn't a Capellan we'll get along fine

Nah. For BattleTech I usually either played Steiner or Kurita (when we bothered with loyalties at all). The only good thing to come out of the Capellan Confederation was the Raven, and even that's sorta sketchy if you don't have the support to back it up.

That said, the only "real" character I played in the BattleTech universe was a good tech and crummy tank jock from the Oberon Confederation. Couldn't drive or shoot to save his soul (not that he didn't try really hard), but he could could MacGyver you a pulse laser out of a flashlight, a toaster, and some vacuum tubes.