Thread: Draft Warden Legacy Guide

With this guide completed, I've moved this guide to the lorebook where you can find the latest version. That way it won't accidentally fall to forum pruning. This also opens up editing to the community and not just myself. Here is the link:

The Warden's Guide to Legacies Lorebook Entry


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Hey fellow Wardens!

Recently I set out figure out which legacies to put on my legendary weapons. As I was researching the various legacies, I realized that there wasn't a guide that put all this information in one convenient location. So I started writing my notes down. To that end, I've assembled a draft Warden's Guide to Legacies. I tried to keep it objective by looking at the the pros and cons of each legacy.

Now this is a start, but I need your help and experience. I'm looking for your help to fact check and contribute your own thoughts on the pros and cons to each of the warden's legacies. I'll update it with changes as we go. So without further ado, here's the guide so far.

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The Warden's Guide to Legacies

Legacies are something that people have a lot of opinions about. One person may swear by a particular legacy while another will decry it as a waste of space. It's a lot of conflicting information to sort through. My goal in this guide is to come up with a comprehensive guide that looks a the pros and cons of each legacy and how each can be used.

The legacies are divided between the melee and and ranged weapon a warden carries. Each weapon can have up to six legacies. When a legendary weapon is initially identified, it comes with two, three or four legacies randomly pulled from Pool A. As the weapon levels, three more legacies will be added. At level 10, 20 and 30, you will be given a choice between two random, Pool B legacies to add. There is a small chance you will be offered a Pool A legacy.

Spear, Sword, Club, Dagger, Axe
Pool A

Exultation of Battle Threat

Pros:
The primary role of a warden in a fellowship is tanking. The key to tanking is generating more threat than everyone else. Not only does Exultation of Battle heal you by sucking up morale from enemies around you, it is also the greatest AoE threat generation skill we have. This makes it a commonly used skill when tanking against multiple enemies. This legacy boosts the threat further making it useful in multi-mob tanking.

Cons:
Some have complained that this and the other threat-generating legacies don't produce a noticeable difference. However, it should be pointed out that threat is an ambiguous aspect of the LotRO engine.

Mighty Blow Damage

Pros:
Mighty Blow is one of our stronger DPS attacks. Additionally, the fact that it also applies a bleed to the target makes it even more desirable. This legacy adds even more damage to this skill.

Cons:
More recently, Mighty Blow has been succeeded by its five-icon brother, Unerring Strike. Unfortunately, even with its legacy maxed, Mighty Blow can't compete with Unerring Strike's damage. Also, this legacy has no effect on the bleed damage.

Wages of Fear Positional Damage

Pros:
If you were unaware, Wages of Fear's damage can be doubled if it hits an enemy from the rear. This legacy increases the damage that is caused by a rear attack. With this boost, it makes Wages of Fear the most powerful javelin skill we have. Many will use Ambush to knock out their enemies so they can deliver a rear strike with Wages of Fear.

Cons:
After the initial attack, the enemy usually will turn and face you making the positional damage a one-time event, (unless of course someone else just happens to be tanking).

Recklessness Attack Duration

Pros:
The Recklessness stance increases the speed of your attacks, allowing you to fire off gambits more quickly, which in turn increases your DPS. With this legacy, you can deliver those blows even faster. Also in combination with the Helegrod armor set (which removes the defensive debuffs) this legacy is an easy choice.

Cons:
Dishing out gambits faster means you'll burn through power faster, plus while in Recklessness, you won't have the boosted ICPR from Conservation to take the edge off. You'll find it that much harder in a prolonged fight.

Wall of Steel Parry Rating

Pros:
Warden defenses are all about self-buffs, and Wall of Steel is one of them. The buff from Wall of Steel increases our Parry rate making it harder for enemies to hit us, and this legacy increases the magnitude of that buff. Additionally, Wall of Steel is both an interrupt and a decent DPS attack, making it an easy choice for a DPS rotation.

Cons:
At max level, a warden's parry rating is already at the cap with Wall of Steel engaged, which means that the Wall of Steel legacy only contributes to partial parry mitigation.

Piercing Strike Threat

Pros:
Piercing Strike is one of our single-target, threat-generating skills, and this legacy increases it.

Cons:
Piercing strike generates only about half the threat of its little, two-icon brother, Precise Blow, and this legacy doesn't make up for that difference. Most wardens avoid Piercing Strike in favor of spamming Precise Blow.

Spear of Virtue Threat

Pros:
Tied as one of our strongest, single target threat generators, Spear of Virtue also has the honor of being one of our strongest light damage attacks, (short of applying light oils to our javelin). This legacy boosts the threat it generates making it our greatest single target threat generator.

Cons:
With the same threat, but half the gambit length, many Wardens prefer Precise Blow over Spear of Virtue. Even with the boost from the legacy, it's unclear that it's worth the additional build time.

War Cry Threat

Pros:
This is another one of our AoE threat generators. While not as strong an AoE threat generator as Exultation of Battle, most wardens work both into an effective rotation. Plus the fact that it's only has two-icon gambit makes it quick to fire off.

Cons:
Some have complained that this and the other threat-generating legacies don't produce a noticeable difference. However, it should be pointed out that threat is an ambiguous aspect of the LotRO engine.

Power Fierce Resolve Gambit Line

Pros:
Given that the Fierce Resolve line is useful, and power hungry, this legacy is an easy choice for the power conscious. In situations where you're tanking a group of mobs, this line will see a lot of use.

Cons:
This legacy has no effect on builder costs which make up most of the power cost of executing a skill in the Fierce Resolve line. There are also other ways to reduce your power drain including carvings, the Conservation stance and fate-rich gear.


Pool B


Javelin Skills Range

Pros:
While our javelin skills are not used much after the first moments of a battle, they give us quite a few options when initiating pulls. This legacy improves our options by extending the range of our javelin skills. Want to pull the straggler troll on the far side of the group first? This legacy will help you do that. This legacy also helps make up the difference in range between your own javelin skills and the range of the orc archer you got into a shooting match with. In PvMP this legacy is handy in ambushing monster players from a safer distance.

Cons:
This legacy is only really good in those situations where our target is outside our normal range, and something prevents us from moving closer. Extended range is really more of a convenience than a necessity. Also, this skill does not increase the range of our javelin auto-attacks. You will still have to move in closer once all your javelin skills are on cooldown.

Ambush Critical Multiplier and Critical Strike Critical Multiplier

Pros:
Ah, Ambush and Critical Strike, the staple combo of the warden. While these are two separate legacies, I've decided to talk about them together since they're both used in the same maneuver and affect their respective skills the same way. Both legacies increase the chance that their respective skills will score a critical hit, and a critical hit means more damage. Given how often we tend to use Ambush and Critical Strike, these legacies can offer a significant increase in spike damage. (Note: Ambush can only be used once per battle while Critical Strike can be used repeatedly if the warden dazes the target with Boar's Rush or the Boot, or if the target is dazed by a fellowship member. This makes the Critical Strike legacy slightly more desirable.)

Cons:
At higher levels, the damage caused by Ambush and Critical Strike tends to be eclipsed by heavier hitters like Wages of Fear and Javelin of Deadly Force. So many wardens will only use Ambush for its ability to stun, not it's damage output.

Spear of Virtue Damage

Pros:
Spear of Virtue is the most damaging threat generating skill we have, and this legacy increases that damage. Also, the fact that it causes light damage makes it useful against certain types of enemy.

Cons:
Given that when wardens are tanking, they're not typically concerned with damage output, Spear of Virtue tends to fall by the wayside in favor of the faster, but less damaging Precise Blow. Those wardens who do choose to tank via damage will typically do so with the spear-line skills which is more effective.

Surety of Death Damage Over Time

Pros:
This is the only legacy that increases the damage of our damage over time skills. This legacy also seems to extend to the Surety of Death's big brother, Desolation.

Cons:
Many wardens feel that the damage over time potential of our fist line is inferior to the direct damage of our spear line over the same period of time. For that reason, few wardens make use of the damage-over-time skills.

Hampering Javelin Duration

Pros:
The longer an enemy takes to reach you, the longer it is before he can attack you. Hampering Javelin puts a slow debuff on its target. This legacy increases the duration of the Hampering Javelin effect. This can be useful for slowing down a boss you're trying to build aggro on, or kiting a single target such as the armored guards in Barad Guldur. With this legacy maxed and the Expert Hurler trait equipped, the duration will actually be longer than the cooldown, making it possible to keep a mob demobilized indefinitely. In PvMP where the enemy isn't computer controlled, this can be invaluable in keeping a monster player from moving around too much or trying to escape.

Cons:
This legacy won't see a lot of use outside of tricky boss battles (many of which can't be slowed) and monster play.

Boar's Rush Critical Rating

Pros:
While not our heaviest hitting skill, Boar's Rush has a chance to daze your opponent on a critical hit--which allows you to hit them with Critical Strike-- making it a tempting choice for a DPS rotation. This legacy increases the chance of a critical hit, which not only translates to a better chance of more damage, but a better chance to daze your opponent. (Note: Daze is not affected by the stun immunity caused by your Ambush attack.)

Cons:
Given its lower damage compared to other skills and the fact that there is only a marginal chance of landing a daze, many wardens prefer heavier hitters like Unerring Strike or Warden's Triumph.

Onslaught Damage

Pros:
The combination of reasonable damage, modest builder cost, and interruption abilities make Onslaught a common choice for wardens in their DPS rotation. Because it increases the damage of this skill, this legacy is an ideal choice for a DPS build.

Cons:
Onslaught isn't the biggest hitter in the warden's arsenal.

Power, Power Attack Gambit Line

Pros:
While focused on DPS, the power attack line sees a lot of use as both a source of direct damage and our primary source of bleeds. Given that running in Recklessness (our DPS stance) increases the drain on our power supply, this legacy is an easy choice for a damage-focused build.

Cons:
If you are running in the spear trait line, you probably already have a number of traits that help reduce the power cost of your spear line skills. This legacy will also not help with any of the attack skills not in the Power Attack line. This legacy doesn't reduce the power cost of gambit builders which make up most of the power cost for these skills.


Javelin
Pool A


Determination In Combat Morale Regeneration

Pros:
Determination, our morale-regain boosting stance, gets an even bigger boost from this legacy. When your need to get you morale back more quickly (for instance, when you're kiting) this is a good choice.

Cons:
At high levels, many wardens generally feel that the morale regained from Determination is less than the morale saved from the defensive buff of the Conservation stance. For that reason, Determination is rarely used outside of kiting.

Conservation In Combat Power Regeneration

Pros:
Given the power regain and defensive buff Conservation provides, this is by far the most common stance wardens run in. With this legacy boosting the power regain even further for the stance, this is an excellent choice for javelin legacies.

Cons:
Even maxed out, this legacy only provides a 15% boost in-combat power regain for the stance.

Dark Before Dawn Power Restored

Pros:
If used correctly, The Dark Before the Dawn can give us the power we need to stay in a fight. This legacy gives us a a boost in the power received from it.

Cons:
The Dark Before the Dawn is a difficult skill to execute, given that we must be below 50% health to use it. Before a warden gets used to the idea of morale surfing, they probably won't use DbD too much. After that though, it's another story.

Restoration Morale Healed, Celebration of Skill Healing and Safeguard Healing

Pros:
These three legacies provide a boost to our three main self-heals. It goes with out saying that self healing is the keystone of our ability to tank and solo. So any legacy that boosts our self-heals is of obvious value. (Note: Because all three provide a 15% boost for their respective skills, you will see less of a boost from the Safeguard legacy than you will from the Restoration legacy. This makes Restoration the most desirable.)

Cons:
These legacies will be much less effective on a warden who isn't traited shield.

Dance of War Evade Rating

Pros:
Dance of War is one of our primary defensive buffs. (Plus, it's a threat leech, which makes it a prime choice in a tanking rotation.) This legacy boosts the magnitude of its buff to evade.

Cons:
Given that Shield Mastery (our main defensive buff) also contributes to evade, it is likely that even without this legacy we're already at the cap for evade. That means that this legacy really only contributes to partial evade.

Heal bonus for Conviction

Pros:
Conviction is the only group heal we have, and the only skills we have which directly affects our fellows. Conviction is also a threat leech making it a standard in a tanking rotation. Plus the extra healing translates into a little extra threat. Add the facts that it's one of our stronger heals and it stacks with our other self heals, and it makes the Conviction legacy one of the most highly sought after legacies we have.

Cons:
While you're not doomed if you don't have it, this legacy is useful in almost every situation.

Power Safeguard Gambit Line

Pros:
With the heavy use our self heals see, it's not hard for these skills to suck up power quickly. Plus, a situation which requires you to lay on the self heals is not the time you want to run out of power.

Cons:
There are always other options for reducing power consumption. This legacy also doesn't help our other source of morale: morale leeches. As with the other power cost reduction legacies, this legacy doesn't reduce the cost of builders, which make up a large portion of the gambits' overall power cost, especially since you only have two masteries which can be used while stacking this line.


Pool B


Shield Piercer Duration

Pros:
Shield Pierce is the only damage-related debuff we really have. This skill all but wipes out an enemy's ability to block resulting in a LOT more of your attacks landing home. This legacy extends the duration of the skill by quite a bit. In combination with the Expert Hurler trait, you can keep this debuff going indefinitely.

Cons:
Shield Pierce only effects block, not evade or parry. So it's still possible for opponents to avoid your attacks.

Careful Step Duration

Pros:
Careful Step has two main purposes: as a pre-induction of Ambush and as a temporary stealth. This legacy can extend the duration of Careful Step from 20 seconds all the way to 50 seconds. If you're trying to sneak past a group of mobs, that extra duration can be quite useful. In PvMP, this legacy allows for a lot more flexibility in sneaking up on opponents, waiting for an ambush, or sneaking into the middle of a battle.

Cons:
Outside of PvMP, Careful Step doesn't see a lot of use except to ambush a tricky mob or simply sneak by.

Forced March Max Power Penalty

Pros:
Forced March is one of the nicest speed boosts in game, as it doesn't expire till you turn it off or enter combat. (Hint: this skill is awesome in Evendim as it applies to swimming as well.) The down side is that once it does end, it takes most of your power with it. This is very bad if you just entered combat. This legacy takes the edge off this skill.

Cons:
With a only a 9% boost to the penalty, you will still be at a severe disadvantage should you find yourself in combat after a Forced March. Also, Forced March doesn't get used as much in later levels as a horse is faster.

Shield Mastery Block Rating

Pros:
As one of our primary defensive buffs, this legacy is a prime choice in boosting our block while tanking.

Cons:
At max level, it is likely that you are already hitting the cap, which means that this legacy is only going to contribute to partial block.

Resolution Resist Rating

Pros:
Resolution is our big instant morale leech. While this legacy doesn't directly increase the morale being leeched, it does reduce the likelihood that the enemy resists it, resulting in more morale being leeched on average. When fighting lots of enemies, this can be a nice bonus.

Cons:
Resolution's effectiveness is directly proportional to the number of mobs in range. When fighting three or fewer mobs, the Safeguard line is generally much more effective as a source of healing.

Ambush and Careful Step Induction

Pros:
Many wardens will lament the long induction of the Ambush skill before a battle. The wait time often causes wardens to stop using Ambush entirely. When maxed out, this legacy brings the Ambush induction down to only 2 seconds. This can be very useful if you're grouped with an impatient hunter. In PvMP where the movements of the monster players are far less predictable, this legacy is a must have. It give monster players a lot less time to react.

Cons:
Outside of PvMP, this is really more of a convenience legacy that has no effect on the actual battle.

Reduced To-Hit Movement penalty for Javelin Skills

Pros:
When running around, your javelin skills are less likely to hit their targets. This legacy helps reduce the penalty you receive from moving. This can be a nice bonus when kiting or when facing a monster player where you need to keep moving.

Cons:
There are only a handful of instances where a warden is moving and firing off javelin skills: when making an initial run on a target, when kiting, and when involved in PvMP.

Adroit Maneuver Duration

Pros:
Adroit Maneuver offers up a hefty bonus to attack speed, but doesn't lasts a mere 20 seconds. This legacy addresses that by increasing the duration by up to a 50%, which makes this skill much more useful.

Cons:
With a relatively weak attack, many wardens are hesitant to put Adroit Maneuver into their DPS rotation. While the legacy helps with this, there are many who feel the skill doesn't offer a long enough boost to justify taking the time to execute it.

Warden’s Triumph Duration

Pros:
In addition to being one of the highest damage gambits we wardens have, Warden's Triumph also provides a boost to our melee damage. This legacy extends the duration of this damage boost. This can be very nice in tanking situations as it can increase the damage caused by our otherwise defensively minded attacks. This legacy increases the duration meaning we don't have to fire it off as frequently.

Cons:
Because of Warden's Triumph's high damage, in a DPS rotation, it is used quite frequently and it is rare that the effect will expire before we fire it again.

Just a couple things to point out.

Surety of Death DoT apparently also effects Desolation.

also,

Javelin Skills Range - Having this helps out in ranged fights and increases the range of ambush.
Hampering Javelin Duration - Most useful in 1v1, it allows you to keep your target slowed permanently if Expert Hurler is traited.
Javelin Hit Movement Penalty - You move a lot in PvP.
Careful step induction - This is perhaps the most useful PvP legacy, decreasing ambush induction from 5 to 2 seconds gives the enemy a very short warning. Ambushing with a 5 second induction gives creeps a long time to put you into combat, break line of sight or simply run away.
Careful step duration - This allows you to wait for longer periods, and sneak into the middle of a fight, also allowing for the instant cast of ambush. Increases stealth duration from 20 to 50 seconds. Also useful for difficult landscape, and allowing you to bypass many trash pulls.

Are all significant PvMP legacies.

Otherwise , a good intro to available legacies.

One more thing - you can get Pool A legacies on reforges, so the chances of getting these are high. You alluded that the chance of getting the several of the healing legacies is low, but I've found it to be otherwise.

Lots of typos and a handful of spelling errors for you to correct. : )

As far as content: I think a newly-identified weapon can have up to four legacies, unless that was changed at some point.

Some of your cons are a stretch, such as on legacies that have a high degree of consensus among the community--DbD power return and Conviction healing are examples. There's no need to be so fair that you're straining to find bad things to say about highly desirable legacies.

And a question, does Mighty Blow damage affect the damage of the bleeds?

Overall, I think it looks quite good. It should certainly help a lot of new Wardens. I didn't read the entire thing, but I did spot check some legacies that I have some experience with and I generally agree with your assessments. Here are some things I did notice though.

While the quality is generally high, it could use a proof-reading pass. I know I'm being a bit of a grammar-cop on this one, but I think you've done really good work, so it should be at it's best. An example of where it could be improved is:

Originally Posted by greendragoon100

Given the Fierce Resolve line's (should be "line is" or it looks like a possessive noun) useful, and power hungary (hungry), this legacy is an easy choice for the power conscious. In situations where your ("you are" or "you're") tanking a group of mobs, this line will see a lot of use.

As far as the content, I only have one major disagreement from the parts I read:

Originally Posted by greendragoon100

Heal bonus for Conviction

...

Cons:
At a 15% maximum bonus, it's not a deal breaker. This also really has not (no) use outside of a group setting.

I disagree here. Conviction returns a significant amount of morale to you (especially with the shield capstone) as well as to the rest of your fellowship, and it does stack with Restoration in case there is any confusion there. It can find use solo when Restoration and CoS just aren't getting the job done alone, particularly if you happen to have the legacy already for tanking. Additionally, it uses different masteries than the other HoT's we have, so it's faster to fire off both Conviction and Restoration than Restoration and CoS, which I why I tend to use Conviction instead of CoS in my solo rotations when I don't need both.

Also, I agree with Jaltir about not needing to be quite so "fair" on the cons. Maybe a rating for each legacy might be in order, or even just a gold star for particularly popular legacies. That might make is easier for newer players to find a starting point.

Alright, I think I've got the changes in. This is all excellent feedback. I'll have to go back later and do a proper proof read for typos when I have more time.

EDIT:

@geoboy - Thanks for filling in the PvMP descriptions. I haven't done a lot of PvMP myself.

@Jaltir - Yeah, I know some of the cons are weak. (Honestly, there are a few pros that are weak.) I usually try to approach the cons from the perspective of under what situation would this legacy not be really useful. (Actually the DBtD one was from personal experience, I didn't use DBtD for the longest time because I wasn't good enough to keep myself alive with morale that low.)

@tanis0 - You go right ahead and do the grammar cop thing. Also, I concede Conviction has no downsides that I can think of and have updated it accordingly.

Originally Posted by greendragoon100

Wall of Steel Parry Rating

Cons:
At max level, a warden's parry is often already at the cap with the Wall of Steel buff, which means that the Wall of Steel legacy only contributes to partial parry mitigation.

Power Fierce Resolve Gambit Line

Pros:
Given the Fierce Resolve line is useful, and power hungry, this legacy is an easy choice for the power conscious. In situations where you're tanking a group of mobs, this line will see a lot of use.

Cons:
There are other ways to reduce your power drain including carvings, the Conservation stance and fate-rich gear. Most of the power costs incurred by the Fierce Resolve line come from the builders. This legacy only saves a dozen or two power per execution at maximum.


Pool B

Hampering Javelin Duration

Pros:
The longer an enemy takes to reach you, the longer it is before he can attack you. Hampering Javelin puts a slow debuff on its target. This legacy increases the duration of of the Hampering Javelin effect. If you have an enemy who likes to move around a lot, this can be a useful legacy. This legacy makes it possible to keep an enemy's movement slowed indefinitely, and is often useful for kiting single targets (e.g. armored guards in Barad Guldur). In PvMP where the enemy isn't computer controlled, this can be invaluable in keeping a monster player from moving around to much or trying to escape.

Cons:
While Hampering Javelin is useful in slowing an enemy's approach so you can unload all your javelin skills into him, the enemy will still reach you well before the Hampering Javelin effect wears off. So with the exception of keeping a kitable mob or monster player that likes to run around down to a manageable speed, this legacy doesn't have a lot of use.

Boar's Rush Critical Rating

Pros:
While not our heaviest hitting skill, the fact that it has a chance to stun your opponent (and unlock the Critical Strike skill,) making it a tempting choice for a warden's DPS rotation. This legacy increases the chance of a critical hit, which not only translates to a better chance of more damage, but a better chance to daze your opponent (dazes ignore temporary stun immunity!).

Cons:
Given it's lower damage in comparison to other skills and the fact that there is only a marginal chance of landing a stun, many wardens prefer heavier hitters like Unerring Strike or Warden's Triumph.

Power, Power Attack Gambit Line

Pros:
While focused on damage, the power attack line sees a lot of use as both a source of direct damage and the primary source of bleeds. Given that running in Recklessness (our primary DPS stance) does nothing for our power requirements, this legacy is an easy choice for a damage-focused build.

Cons:
If your running in a DPS build, you probably already have a number of skills that help reduce the power cost of your spear line skills. This legacy will also not help with any of the attack skills not in the Power Attack line. Most of the power costs incurred by the Power Attack line come from the builders. This legacy only saves a dozen or two power per execution at maximum.


Javelin
Pool A

Restoration Morale Healed, Celebration of Skill Healing and Safeguard Healing

Pros:
These three legacies provide a boost to our three highest self-heals. It goes with out saying that self healing is a keystone to our ability to tank and solo. So any legacy that boosts our self-heals is of obvious value.

Cons:
Because all three provide a 15% boost for their respective skill, you will see less of a boost from the Safeguard legacy than you will with the the Restoration legacy. This makes Restoration more desirable. These legacies aren't really special for a warden that is not traited shield line.

Heal bonus for Conviction

Power Safeguard Gambit Line

Pros:
With the heavy use our self heals see, it's not hard for these skills to suck up power quickly. Plus, a situation which requires you to lay on the self heals is not the time you want to run out of power.

Cons:
There are always other options for reduction power consumption. This also doesn't help our other source of morale, morale leeches. Most of the power costs incurred by the Safeguard line come from the builders. This legacy only saves a dozen or two power per execution at maximum.


Pool B


Shield Piercer Duration

Pros:
Shield Pierce is the only damage-related, enemy debuff we really have. It reduces an enemy's ability to block. The duration on it though isn't huge, but this legacy helps. It really is a large debuff, effectively wiping out blocking avoidance on pretty much anything, save a buffed guardian or a warden you might spar against. The longer it lasts, the more it helps.

Cons:
Shield Pierce only effects block, not evade or parry. So unless your opponent is carrying a shield, it's not likely to have much effect. Many mobs that do not carry a shield can actually block. How? Who knows. I think it's because they all use the same model that the monster player characters use, which is to give a flat value to all 3 avoidances.

Ambush and Careful Step Induction

Pros:
Many wardens will lament the long induction of the Ambush skill before a battle. The wait time often causes wardens to stop using Ambush entirely. When maxed out, this legacy can cut the induction time of both Ambush and Careful Step by over half. In PvMP where the movements of the monster players are far less predictable, this skill is a must have. It give monster players a lot less time to react. In PvE, it makes accidental interruptions by fellowship members much more rare.

Cons:
Outside of PvMP, this is really more of a convenience legacy that has no effect on the actual battle.

These are the entries that I felt needed some nitpicking and/or adjustment. My suggestions are in brown.

Very nice summary. The only item I noticed that I particularly disagreed with was the phrase I've highlighted in the con statement for this legacy:

Resolution Resist Rating

Pros:
Resolution is our highest, immediate morale leech. While this legacy doesn't directly increase the morale being leeched, it does reduce the likelihood that the enemy resists it, resulting in more morale. When fighting lots of enemies, this can be a nice bonus.

Cons:
While it has the advantage of being more immediate, Resolution doesn't get used quite as much as Exaltation of Battle as it provides less morale overall.

First off, I use Resolution as much or more then EoB. EoB is a leech over time, resolution is a tap. Both hit up to 10 mobs, and while EoB's total over time adds up to more then Reso's one time hit*, Reso gets back a big chunk of morale all in go if there's enough mobs around, and I can fit in two of it (one masteried, one hand-built) before my masteries for EoB refresh.

In crowded situations where keeping my own health up to free the healer(s) to worry about everyone else in group is suddenly extremely important, I'll often switch to spamming masteried EoB (3-12-32), masteried Reso (31-23), hand-built Conv or Reso or Restoration depending on situation (2-3-2-3-2 or 3-1-2-3 or 2-1-2-1-2) and back around to masteried EoB. And of course in kiting situations I alternate building EoB and Reso with masteries. So that's a lot of resolution uses.



* - based on the tool-tips for my skills with current traits and legacies, I get these numbers. Your mileage will vary:

EoB:
10 targets x 76.5 morale per target x 5 pulses (1 pulse every 4s for 16s, including one at the 0s mark) = maximum of 3825 total morale over 16 seconds

Reso:
10 targets x 190.9 morale per target = maximum of 1909 morale each time I spam it, and I typically can spam it twice between EoBs for a potential maximum total of almost 3818 morale sucked - almost identical to what I'm regaining with EoB during the same period of time, which effectively invalidates the claim of it providing less morale overall.

Originally Posted by MistressMagpye

...which effectively invalidates the claim of it providing less morale overall.

I disagree with you on that specific point; it is an undeniable fact that EoB generates more morale with each use. However, that doesn't mean that Resolution is less useful than EoB. When things are going sideways, I'd rather have 1000+ morale RIGHT NOW than 2000+ morale over the next sixteen seconds. I agree with the rest of your post, Resolution is just as useful and used nearly as frequently as EoB. And, when it comes time to use Resolution, I love having that resist legacy on there, because if I'm using Resolution, I want it to WORK.

Originally Posted by Jaltir

I disagree with you on that specific point; it is an undeniable fact that EoB generates more morale with each use.

Very true - it's only about half the per-use value of EoB. But in terms of which of the two gambits can restore more morale by itself over a given period of time, Reso is the clear winner; even if I do something silly like chaining EoB, it just restarts the buff timer and keeps me at a steady morale-per-4s level (in my case, around 950 morale every 4 seconds if there are 10 mobs in the vicinity that I can suck morale from).

On the other hand, if I'm doing nothing but chain-spamming Reso (and when the fecal matter hits the rotary aeration device hard enough, that's exactly what I occasionally end up doing, at least until my EoB-building masteries refresh), I'm doing roughly 3 spams of it in the same 16s that an EoB would have run, for a return of up to 5727 morale in total, averaging out to about 1100 morale every 4 seconds - not a gigantic improvement over what an EoB would have given me, but enough to be noticeable.

Clearly though the most effective use of the gambits in terms of pure morale regen over time is to layer EoB with other heals, whether Resolution, Conviction or Restoration (or lesser self-heals of choice) - with EoB ticking plus two Resos spammed, I'll be getting a regen rate that's effectively averaging a little over 2000 morale every 4 seconds at max targets hit, a huge improvement over what either of them by itself provides.

Also, your calculations were based on a 10 mob pull. I would say: extraordinarily rare, and surely in 16 seconds a group could kill or almost zero at least one of those. Less mobs to leech drastically changes the curve.

plink... $0.02

[EDIT] Alas... derailed. So sorry.

Originally Posted by MistressMagpye

Very true - it's only about half the per-use value of EoB. But in terms of which of the two gambits can restore more morale by itself over a given period of time, Reso is the clear winner; even if I do something silly like chaining EoB, it just restarts the buff timer and keeps me at a steady morale-per-4s level (in my case, around 950 morale every 4 seconds if there are 10 mobs in the vicinity that I can suck morale from).

On the other hand, if I'm doing nothing but chain-spamming Reso (and when the fecal matter hits the rotary aeration device hard enough, that's exactly what I occasionally end up doing, at least until my EoB-building masteries refresh), I'm doing roughly 3 spams of it in the same 16s that an EoB would have run, for a return of up to 5727 morale in total, averaging out to about 1100 morale every 4 seconds - not a gigantic improvement over what an EoB would have given me, but enough to be noticeable.

Clearly though the most effective use of the gambits in terms of pure morale regen over time is to layer EoB with other heals, whether Resolution, Conviction or Restoration (or lesser self-heals of choice) - with EoB ticking plus two Resos spammed, I'll be getting a regen rate that's effectively averaging a little over 2000 morale every 4 seconds at max targets hit, a huge improvement over what either of them by itself provides.

Excellent points; I retract my objection to your previous post. Carry on!

Originally Posted by Cuahairon

Also, your calculations were based on a 10 mob pull. I would say: extraordinarily rare, and surely in 16 seconds a group could kill or almost zero at least one of those. Less mobs to leech drastically changes the curve.

plink... $0.02

[EDIT] Alas... derailed. So sorry.

But it changes it evenly since both are based on how many mobs they're hitting, up to the same 10-mob max. So whatever pro-rated value it works out to, it's still the same ratio between the two gambits. Using the max value for my calculations was just because it's very easy to multiple by 10, and I generally suck at mental math so easy is good.

Whatever number of mobs or changing number of mobs you use to figure it, in the long run it usually works out the same - the mobs fall over go boom, the warden grins and says "Next!".

Alright, sorry for the delay. I think I've got all the edits so far in. This is all excellent stuff. I should note that I've paraphrased some of your comments to get them to fit in better and rewrote entries in some cases. So it's entirely possible that accidentally changed the meaning of your edits. Please feel free to edit the edits.

As for derailment, it wouldn't be a Warden thread without it. What can I say, we're an intellectually mischievous bunch.

Originally Posted by greendragoon100

Exultation of Battle Threat

Pros:
The primary role of a warden in a fellowship is as a tank. (You could also phrase this "...fellowship is tanking.") The key to tanking is generating more threat than everyone else. Not only does Exultation of Battle heal you by sucking up morale from enemies around you, it is also the greatest AoE threat generation skill we have. This makes it a commonly used skill when tanking against multiple enemies. This legacy boosts the threat further making it useful in multi-mob tanking.

Cons:
Some have complained that this and the other threat-generating legacies don't produce a noticeable difference. However, it should be pointed out that threat is an ambiguous aspect of the LotRO engine.

Mighty Blow Damage

Pros:
Mighty Blow is one of our stronger DPS attacks. Additionally, the fact that it also applies a bleed to the target makes it even more desirable. This legacy adds even more damage to this skill.

Cons:
More recently, Mighty Blow has been succeeded by its five-icon brother, Unerring Strike. Unfortunately, even with its legacy maxed, Mighty Blow can't compete with Unerring Strike's damage. Also, this legacy has no effect on the bleed damage.

Wages of Fear Positional Damage

Pros:
If you were unaware, Wages of Fear's damage can be doubled if it hits an enemy from the rear. This legacy increases the damage that is caused by a rear attack. With this boost, Wages of Fear is the most powerful javelin skill we have. Many will use Ambush to knock out their enemies so they can deliver a rear strike with Wages of Fear.

Cons:
After the initial attack, the enemy usually will turn and face you making the positional damage a one-time event (unless of course someone else just happens to be tanking).

Recklessness Attack Duration

Pros:
The Recklessness stance increases the speed of your attacks, allowing you to fire off gambits more quickly, which in turn increases your DPS. With this legacy, you can deliver those blows even faster.

Cons:
Dishing out gambits faster means you'll burn through power faster, plus while in Recklessness, you won't have the boosted ICPR from Conservation to take the edge off. You'll find it that much harder in a prolonged fight.

Wall of Steel Parry Rating

Pros:
Warden defenses are all about self-buffs, and Wall of Steel is one of them. The buff from Wall of Steel increases our Parry rate making it harder for enemies to hit us, and this legacy increases the magnitude of that buff. Additionally, Wall of Steel is both an interrupt and a decent DPS attack, making it an easy choice for a DPS rotation.

Cons:
At max level, a warden's parry rating is already at the cap with Wall of Steel engaged, which means that the Wall of Steel legacy only contributes to partial parry mitigation.

Piercing Strike Threat

Pros:
Piercing Strike is one of our single-target, threat-generating skills, and this legacy increases it.

Cons:
Piercing strike generates only about half the threat of its little, two-icon brother, Precise Blow, and this legacy doesn't make up that difference. Most wardens avoid Piercing Strike in favor of spamming Precise Blow.

Spear of Virtue Threat

Pros:
Tied as one of our strongest, single target threat generators, Spear of Virtue also has the honor of being one of our strongest Light damage attacks (short of applying light oils to our javelin). This legacy boosts the threat it generates making it our greatest delete the comma: , single target threat generator.

Cons:
With the same threat, but half the gambit length, many Wardens prefer Precise Blow over Spear of Virtue. Even with the boost from the legacy, it's unclear that it's worth the additional build time.

War Cry Threat

Pros:
This is our first AoE threat generator. While not as strong a threat generator as Exultation of Battle, the other AoE threat generation gambit, most wardens work both into an effective rotation. Plus the fact that it is only a two-icon gambit makes it quick to fire off.

Cons:
Some have complained that this and the other threat-generating legacies don't produce a noticeable difference. However, it should be pointed out that threat is an ambiguous aspect of the LotRO engine.

Power Fierce Resolve Gambit Line

Pros:
Given that the Fierce Resolve line is useful, and power hungry, this legacy is an easy choice for the power conscious. In situations where you're tanking a group of mobs, this line will see a lot of use.

Cons:
This legacy has no effect on builder costs which make up most of the power cost of executing a skill in the Fierce Resolve line. There are also other ways to reduce your power drain including carvings, the Conservation stance and Fate-rich gear.


Pool B


Javelin Toss Range

Pros:
While our javelin skills are not used [either "too" or simply delete the word] much after the first moments of a battle, they give us quite a few options when initiating pulls. This legacy improves our options by extending the range of our javelin skills. (Note: despite the name, this does in fact affect ALL javelin skills.) Want to pull the straggler troll on the far side of the group first? This legacy will help you do that. This legacy also helps make up the difference in range between your own javelin skills and the range of the orc archer you got into a shooting match with. In PvMP this legacy is handy in ambushing monster players from a safer distance.

Cons:
This legacy is only really good in those situations where our target is outside our normal range, and something prevents us from moving closer. Extended range is really more of a convenience than a necessity.

Ambush Critical Multiplier and Critical Strike Critical Multiplier

Pros:
Ah, Ambush and Critical Strike, the staple combo of the warden. While these are two separate legacies, I've decided to talk about them together since they're both used in the same maneuver and affect their respective skills the same way. Both legacies increase the chance that their respectiveskills will [delete: respectively] score a critical hit, and a critical hit means more damage. Given how often[delete: ,] we tend to use Ambush and Critical Strike, these legacies can offer [I would say, "a significant increase in spike damage."] an overall boost to our damage average. (Note: Ambush can only be used once per battle while Critical Strike can be used repeatedly if the warden dazes the target with Boar's Rush or the Boot, or if the target is dazed by a fellowship member. This makes the Critical Strike legacy slightly more desirable.)

Cons:
At higher levels, the damage of Ambush and Critical Strike tend to be eclipsed by heavier hitters like Wages of Fear and Javelin of Deadly Force. So many wardens will only use Ambush for its ability to stun, not its damage output.

Spear of Virtue Damage

Pros:
Spear of Virtue is the most damaging threat generating skill we have, and this legacy increases that damage.

Cons:
Given that when wardens are tanking, they are not concerned with damage output, Spear of Virtue tends to fall by the wayside in favor of the faster [delete: ,] but less damaging Precise Blow.

Surety of Death Damage Over Time

Pros:
This is the only legacy that increases the damage of one of our damage over time skills. This legacy's effect also seems to extend to [delete: the] Surety of Death's big brother, Desolation. [Is that actually true?]

Cons:
Many wardens feel that the damage over time potential of our fist line is inferior to the direct damage of our spear line over the same period of time. For that reason, few wardens make use of damage-over-time skills.

Hampering Javelin Duration

Pros:
The longer an enemy takes to reach you, the longer it is before he can attack you. Hampering Javelin puts a Slow debuff on its target. This legacy increases the duration of that Slow. This can be useful for slowing down a boss you're trying to build aggro on, or kiting single targets [delete: ,] such as the armored guards in Barad Guldur. With this legacy maxed [delete: ,] and the Expert Hurler trait equipped, the duration will actually be longer than the cooldown, making it possible to keep a mob demobilized indefinitely. In PvMP where the enemy isn't computer controlled, this can be invaluable in keeping a monster player from moving around too much or trying to escape.

Cons:
This legacy won't see a lot of use outside of tricky boss battles and monster play.

Boar's Rush Critical Rating

Pros:
While not our heaviest hitting skill, Boar's Rush has a chance to daze your opponent on a critical hit--which allows you to hit them with Critical Strike--making it a tempting choice for a [delete: warden's] DPS rotation. This legacy increases the chance of a critical hit, which not only translates to a better chance of more damage, but a better chance to daze your opponent. (Note: Daze is not affected by the stun immunity caused by your Ambush attack.)

Cons:
Given its lower damage compared to other skills and the fact that there is only a marginal chance of landing a stun, many wardens prefer heavier hitters like Unerring Strike or Warden's Triumph.

Onslaught Damage

Pros:
The combination of reasonable damage, modest builder cost, and interruption abilities [delete: ,] make Onslaught a common choice for wardens in their DPS rotation. Because it increases the damage of this skill, this legacy is an ideal choice for a DPS build.

Cons:
Onslaught isn't the biggest hitter in the warden's arsenal.

Power, Power Attack Gambit Line

Pros:
While focused on damage, the power attack line sees a lot of use as both a source of direct damage and our primary source of bleeds. Given that running in Recklessness (our [delete: primary] DPS stance) increases the drain on our power supply, this legacy is an easy choice for a damage-focused build.

Cons:
If you are running a DPS build, you probably already have a number of traits that help reduce the power cost of your spear line skills. This legacy will also not help with any of the attack skills not in the Power Attack line. This legacy doesn't reduce the power cost of gambit builders, which make up most of the power cost for these skills.


Javelin
Pool A


Determination In Combat Morale Regeneration

Pros:
Determination, our morale-regain boosting stance, gets an even bigger boost from this legacy. When you need to get your morale back more quickly (for instance, when you're kiting) this is a good choice.

Cons:
At high levels, many wardens generally feel that the morale regained from Determination is less than the morale saved from the defensive buff of the Conservation stance. For that reason, Determination is rarely used outside of kiting.

Conservation In Combat Power Regeneration

Pros:
Given the power regain and defensive buff Conservation provides, this is by far the most common stance wardens run in. With this legacy boosting the power regain even further, this is an excellent choice for javelin legacies.

Cons:
Even maxed out, this legacy only provides a 15% boost in power regain.

Dark Before Dawn Power Restored

Pros:
If used correctly, The Dark before Dawn can give us the power we need to stay in a fight. This legacy gives us a a boost in the power received from it.

Cons:
The Dark before Dawn is a difficult skill to execute, given that we must be below 50% health to use it. Before a warden gets used to the idea of morale surfing, they probably won't use DbD too much. After that though, it's another story.

Restoration Morale Healed, Celebration of Skill Healing and Safeguard Healing

Pros:
These three legacies provide a boost to our three main self-heals. It goes without saying that self healing is the keystone of our ability to tank and solo. So any legacy that boosts our self-heals is of obvious value.

Cons:
Because all three provide a 15% boost for their respective skills, you will see less of a boost from the Safeguard legacy than you will from [delete: the] the Restoration legacy. This makes the Restoration legacy the most desirable. [The preceding sentence isn't really a "con," as such.] These legacies will be much less effective on a warden who isn't traited shield.

Dance of War Evade Rating

Pros:
Dance of War is one of our primary defensive buffs. (Plus, it's a threat leech, which makes it a prime choice in a tanking rotation.) This legacy boosts the magnitude of its buff to Evade.

Cons:
Given that Shield Mastery (our main defensive buff) also contributes to evade, it is likely that even without this legacy we're already at the cap for evade. That means that this legacy really only contributes to partial evade.

Heal bonus for Conviction

Pros:
Conviction is the only group heal we have, and is the only skill we have which directly affects our fellows. Conviction is also a threat leech making it a standard in a tanking rotation. Add [delete: to] the facts that it's one of our stronger heals and it stacks with our other self heals, and it makes the Conviction legacy one of the most highly sought after legacies we have.

Cons:
While you are [or "you're"] not doomed if you don't have it, this legacy is useful in almost every situation.

Power Safeguard Gambit Line

Pros:
With the heavy use our self heals see, it's not hard for these skills to suck up power quickly. Plus, a situation which requires you to lay on the self heals is not the time you want to run out of power.

Cons:
There are always other options for reducing power consumption. This legacy also doesn't help our other source of morale: morale leeches. As with the other power cost reduction legacies, this legacy doesn't reduce the cost of builders, which [delete: will] make up a large portion of the gambits' overall power cost, especially since you only have two masteries which can be used while stacking this line.


Pool B


Shield Piercer Duration

Pros:
Shield Pierce is the only damage-related[delete: , enemy] debuff we really have. This skill all but wipes out an enemy's ability to block resulting in a LOT more of your attacks landing home. This legacy extends the duration of the skill by quite a bit. In combination with the Expert Hurler trait, you can keep this debuff going indefinitely.

Cons:
Shield Pierce only effects block, not evade or parry. So it's still possible for them to avoid your attacks.

Careful Step Duration

Pros:
Careful Step has two main purposes: as a pre-induction of Ambush and as a temporary stealth. This legacy can extend the duration of Careful Step from 20 seconds all the way to 50 seconds. If you are [or "you're"] trying to sneak past a group of mobs, that extra duration can be quite useful. In PvMP, this legacy allows for a lot more flexibility in sneaking up on opponents, waiting for an ambush, or sneaking into the middle of a battle.

Cons:
Outside of PvMP, Careful Step doesn't see a lot of use except to ambush a tricky mob or simply sneak by.

Forced March Max Power Penalty

Pros:
Forced March is one of the nicest speed boosts in game, as it doesn't expire till you turn it off or enter combat. (Hint: this skill is awesome in Evendim as it applies to swimming as well.) The down side is that once it does end, it takes most of your power with it. This is very bad if you just entered combat. This legacy takes the edge off this skill.

Cons:
With a only a 9% boost to the penalty, you will still be at a severe disadvantage should you find yourself in combat after a Forced March. Also, Forced March doesn't get used as much in later levels as a horse is faster.

Shield Mastery Block Rating

Pros:
As one of our primary defensive buffs, this legacy is a prime choice in boosting our block while tanking.

Cons:
At max level, it is likely that you are already hitting the cap, which means that this legacy is only going to contribute to partial block.

Resolution Resist Rating

Pros:
Resolution is our big instant morale leech. While this legacy doesn't directly increase the morale being leeched, it does reduce the likelihood that the enemy resists it, resulting in more morale being leeched on average. When fighting lots of enemies, this can be a nice bonus.

Cons:
Resolution's effectiveness is directly proportional to the number of mobs in range. When fighting three or fewer mobs, the Safeguard line is generally much more effective as a source of healing.

Ambush and Careful Step Induction

Pros:
Many wardens will lament the long induction of the Ambush skill before a battle. The wait time often causes wardens to stop using Ambush entirely. When maxed out, this legacy brings the Ambush induction down to only [delete: takes] 2 seconds. This can be very useful if you're grouped with an impatient hunter. In PvMP where the movements of the monster players are far less predictable, this legacy is a must have. It give monster players a lot less time to react.

Cons:
Outside of PvMP, this is really more of a convenience legacy that has no effect on the actual battle.

Reduced To-Hit Movement penalty for Javelin Skills

Pros:
When running around, your javelin skills are less likely to hit their targets. This legacy helps reduce the penalty you receive from moving. This can be a nice bonus when kiting or when facing a monster player where you need to keep moving.

Cons:
There are only a handful of instances where a warden is moving and firing off javelin skills: when making an initial run on a target, when kiting, and when involved in PvMP.

Adroit Maneuver Duration

Pros:
Adroit Maneuver offers up a hefty bonus to attack speed, but lasts a mere 20 seconds. This legacy addresses that by increasing the duration by up to 50%, which makes this skill much more useful.

Cons:
With a relatively weak attack, many wardens are hesitant to put Adroit Maneuver into their DPS rotation. While the legacy helps with this, there are many who feel the skill doesn't offer a long enough boost to justify taking the time to execute it.

Warden's Triumph Duration

Pros:
In addition to being one of the highest damage gambits we wardens have, Warden's Triumph also provides a boost to our melee damage. This legacy extends the duration of this damage boost. This can be very nice in tanking situations as it can increase the damage caused by our otherwise defensively minded attacks. This legacy increases the duration meaning we don't have to fire it off as frequently.

Cons:
Because of Warden's Triumph's high damage, in a DPS rotation, it is used quite frequently and it is rare that the effect will expire before we fire it again.

Edits are in red.

Originally Posted by MistressMagpye

But it changes it evenly since both are based on how many mobs they're hitting, up to the same 10-mob max.

I see now that I didn't elucidate my point properly. That is my fault.

It is a linear scale assuming a couple of things. It's technical and maybe too tedious to worry about. Indeed, I haven't done any calculation. The math works assuming that every leech is efective without being resisted (i.e. every tick hits effectively), and it doesn't account for a mob dying before the full effect of the EoB/FR leeches (Cry resitance notwithstanding). [EDIT: Is it Cry resistance that reduces the effects of these attacks? If not, strike Cry for the correct damage type.]

I am not disagreeing with you, by the way. I only point out that there are at least two other non-isolatable variables that will skew actual "field results" of your formula.

Sorry, OP, I am not trying to run this thread into the ground. Side conversation... You know how we Waden's can be.

Good idea! +rep

Originally Posted by Cuahairon

Sorry, OP, I am not trying to run this thread into the ground. Side conversation... You know how we Waden's can be.

No problem, it gives me a chance to catch up on the changes. (Note: I'm about half way through Jaltir's edits. Hopefully I can get the rest in today.)

EDIT: Alright, I should be caught up on all of the changes so far.

So are there any other changes, or is everyone reasonably satisfied with the way it is? If everyone is happy with it, I'll probably post it some where more official soon. LOtRO has a system for posting tutorials, correct?

Originally Posted by greendragoon100

Javelin Toss Range

Actually called Javelin Skills range. Does not affect autoattacks

Originally Posted by greendragoon100

Spear of Virtue Damage

Pros:
Spear of Virtue is the most damaging threat generating skill we have, and this legacy increases that damage. Also, the fact that it causes light damage makes it useful against certain types of enemy.

Cons:
Given that when wardens are tanking, their not concerned with damage output, Spear of Virtue tends to fall by the wayside in favor of the faster, but less damaging Precise Blow.

Some wardens do tank via DPS, but doing so using Spear-based gambits is more effective.

Originally Posted by greendragoon100

Hampering Javelin Duration

Cons:
This legacy won't see a lot of use outside of tricky boss battles and monster play.

most bosses can't be slowed.

Originally Posted by greendragoon100

Conservation In Combat Power Regeneration

Pros:
Given the power regain and defensive buff Conservation provides, this is by far the most common stance wardens run in. With this legacy boosting the power regain even further, this is an excellent choice for javelin legacies.

Cons:
Even maxed out, this legacy only provides a 15% boost in power regain.

Provides a 15% boost to the icpr from the stance, not overall power regen. (note typo)

Other than that, I'm satisfied.

Yes, you can create a guide on the lorebook and it won't be subject to forum purges. I don't know how it's changed with the forum changes.

Several comments. not arguments, just things to point out:

Recklessness: generally I would consider this stance useless (as a life-long tank) but recently the Helegrod epic set was introduced which has an interesting set bonus. it removes the defensive penalties for recklessness. the set already is heavily into might, so is very dps oriented. would suggest this legacy can be effective when wearing the Hele set.

Wages of Fear + Javelin Toss Range: not heavily into javelins, but if you max range (and a bit of situational awareness) you can spot a back across the room and give a good javelin toss for 1.5-2.5k crits every 30s. hey - we aren't hunters, but we can still do dps!

Conviction - increased healing = increased threat. from personal testing it DOES have an effect, and the healing is always appreciated anyway. the recent boom in library/school farming has shown decisively that a group with a fair warden does NOT need a healer along (and if he/she comes they can just do dps).

SoV - this is the only gambit which can have legacies for both increased threat and increased dmg. the bonus for either isn't great, but together it is noticeable. there's no need to spam PB and SoV does significantly more dps than 2 PBs. so once establishing agro with PB it works better (at least for me) to use SoV with both legacies maxed than using PB again. regarding the comment about Spear line dmg - it is true the Spear line does more dps. however most mobs have much higher resists to physical than to light, and SoV is pure light dmg. overall, on tougher mobs, I haven't seen a clear increase in received dps from the spear line due to resists, and obviously SoV creates much more threat.

general comment: I play nearly all classes and sadly my opinion is that at least half of the warden legacies are pure rubbish, while from the rest a good number are marginal (hence the creative thinking needed on how to use them to some effect). considering how useful (and applicable) nearly all of the guardian or hunter legacies are, warden legacies really need a rethink.

Still a good reference so bumping just in case some pruner gets happy.

My apologies, I got side tracked with other things and you know how one thing drives out another. I'll hurry up and get the last comments in and then move it to the tutorial section where the pruner can't it.

Update: Alright, I've gone through and tried to get the rest in as best I though they would fit, so I think it's about ready. I'm going to start moving it over to the tutorial section.

+rep from me also; well done and good insights from everyone that i didnt think of before

Ambush Critical Multiplier and Critical Strike Critical Multiplier

Pros:
Ah, Ambush and Critical Strike, the staple combo of the warden. While these are two separate legacies, I've decided to talk about them together since they're both used in the same maneuver and affect their respective skills the same way. Both legacies increase the chance that their respective skills will score a critical hit, and a critical hit means more damage. Given how often we tend to use Ambush and Critical Strike, these legacies can offer a significant increase in spike damage. (Note: Ambush can only be used once per battle while Critical Strike can be used repeatedly if the warden dazes the target with Boar's Rush or the Boot, or if the target is dazed by a fellowship member. This makes the Critical Strike legacy slightly more desirable.)

Cons:
At higher levels, the damage caused by Ambush and Critical Strike tends to be eclipsed by heavier hitters like Wages of Fear and Javelin of Deadly Force. So many wardens will only use Ambush for its ability to stun, not it's damage output.

Crit multiplier increases the damage you do on a crit, not the chance that a crit will occur.

As to which is more desirable, with the -jav cooldown trait, ambush has half the cooldown of crit strike, so it can be used more often if your fights are short ( about 15 seconds, ideally). However, wardens tend to have higher melee crit chance than ranged crit chance, so crit strike will actually crit and receive the bonus from the legacy more often if the skills are used the same amount.

> Cons:
> Onslaught isn't the biggest hitter in the warden's arsenal.

Last time I saw a detailed discussion of DPS rotations, Onslaught was the featured gambit in the rotation that achieved the best DPS. (In other words, Onslaught had the best DPS of all our gambits.) Has this changed?

BTW I second the notion that our threat legacies are worthless. I pretty much look for the Onslaught legacy and forget the rest.

Hey gang. I finally got around to putting the Legacy Guide in the Lorebook. It took me a few tries to figure out how to get it in there, but it's in. You can find it here:

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/The_W...de_to_Legacies

Very nice. I do like this guide as it explains the skill without telling explicitly what legacies people should use. +rep.

feedback: there's a formatting issue with SM block/forced march power penalty.

Originally Posted by greendragoon100

Hey gang. I finally got around to putting the Legacy Guide in the Lorebook. It took me a few tries to figure out how to get it in there, but it's in. You can find it here:

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/The_W...de_to_Legacies

I tried to edit it, but I think I broke something and it didn't take.

You start off by saying that LIs can get 2/3/4 legacies on ID, but it's just 3 now. And Pool A/B needs to be changed to Major/Minor.

Originally Posted by kyphros

I tried to edit it, but I think I broke something and it didn't take.

You start off by saying that LIs can get 2/3/4 legacies on ID, but it's just 3 now. And Pool A/B needs to be changed to Major/Minor.

It took me a long time to figure it out, but you have to put something in the summary field for the changes to take. It's just a quick description of the changes your making for the change log.

I've gone ahead and made the changes.

Add pros of most of those legacies, is that you can replace them with stat legacies.

Wow. Looking over these only DbtD Power, Conviction Heals, and Conservation look to be really vital. The Jav ones seem nice, but just a conveniance. Am I missing something here?

Restoration is good too. I'd prefer resto over DbtD power.

But I thought the main cost of Restoration was the builders? DbtD let's you Morale Surf better.

Originally Posted by EndontheWhite

But I thought the main cost of Restoration was the builders? DbtD let's you Morale Surf better.

Not the power cost, but the heal amount for Restoration. Power cost isn't bad, but the heal amount is what you want.

Well done! +rep

Is there an updated list postu6 out there? tryin to decide all the legs i want on my weapon

Originally Posted by Killycal

Is there an updated list postu6 out there? tryin to decide all the legs i want on my weapon

I created my own list easily since legacies are all available from the LotRO store now (I won't comment on this.....). There may be errors, but you should be able to check easily. I find the "buff duration" ones to be particularly valuable when keeping uptime on the new incremental avoidance buffs. The ".... rating" ones are good to keep at rank 1, since they provide a good baseline value which does not go up much with rank. The Defiant challenge cooldown is also a good one.

Edit: I forgot. "*" means major.

MELEE
* Fist-Spear threat up
* Shield gambit buff duration
* Spear Gambit Damage
* Spear Gambit Parry Rating
Shield tactics mitigation bonus
* Recklessness attack duration
Critical Strike critical multiplier
* Gambit Lifetap Damage
* Wages of Fear positional Damage
Power reduction Shied-spear gambit line
Ambush critical multiplier
* Power reduction Fist-spear gambit line
Surety of Death damage bonus
Resolution damage bonus
Boar's rush critical rating
Hampering javelin duration

RANGED (Javelin)
* ICPR
* Heal bonus (conviction)
* Heal bonus (all shield?)
Ambush/careful step induction
Javelin Max range
* Fist Gambit buff duration
Shield mastery block rating
* ICMR
Defiant Challenge cooldown
* Spear-Shield damage bonus
* Fist Gambit evade bonus
Careful step duration
reduced to-hit penalty when moving
Adroit Maneuver duration
* Fist Gambit critical rating
Resolution resist rating
Spear-shield power reduction
Shield piercer duration
Forced march movement bonus