Thread: How do you create music for use in game?

This is something I've thought about posting before, as I'm curious about how folks other than myself do it, and because I get asked sometimes how I do it. And the final instigator was a post on this thread asking what fun there was in using someone else's MIDI as a starting point on a tune.

I'll start out by saying I am NOT a musician in real life. Unfortunately, I stopped taking lessons in junior high and never really picked up playing again. I do have a good ear, though, good sense of pitch, and a love of music.

I first hunt for a midi of the tune I want to make--some tunes get dumped at this point if I can't find a suitable midi. Some of the cruel things people do to helpless tunes is worse than any of the torments of the Enemy! Anyway...
Once I have a midi (sometimes 2 or 3, if I'm not sure which one to go with), I'll load them up in the midi editor (I use Anvil Studio) and play it through. Multiple times. I'll mute tracks, listen to one solo, etc, trying to get a handle on how the midi is arranged, relative volumes, important parts, etc. This is another point where many a tune meets its end.
When I've settled on the midi and have the relevant information and a feel for where I'm going, I'll do initial editing. I'll drop parts, merge them, change instruments, do some initial dynamic work and tag parts for merger in the final ABC. At this point, I save the newly edited midi into my active folder (I use subfolders in /Music in order to manage my playlist).
Now that I have a midi ready, I'll load it into LOTRO MIDI Player and take a look at what I have for out of range notes. I'll also export the percussion at this point. Some tunes die at this point if it's got much too wide an octave range to realistically squeeze into the range allowed in game. Assuming that's not the case, I'll go part by part and adjust the track in the midi up/down (increments of 12) to fit it into range. This can take multiple iterations. When I have it pretty close, I'll give it a play through in LOTRO MIDI and listen for transpositions that stick out. Those most often are in clarinet and flute, occasionally horn or lute. I may then do smaller (2-3, up to 6) transpositions on export from lotromidi, and export the tracks to ABC format.
Now--here's where Digero's ABC player made my life much happier. Previously, I'd then go into the game and play each track one at a time to catch any additional issues with transpositions, bad notes, pitch issues, etc. Barring those, I'd do some very rough dynamic tweaks to the parts, and then upload the parts for test at our next band session.
With ABC Player.... I no longer do the separate part test in game (exception is with bagpipes--they tend to clip in game but not in the player). Instead, I do the initial dynamic settings, bundle the parts into a multifile, and play it in ABC Player. I'll go back in and make more adjustments to dynamics, perhaps change the instrument used for a part, occasionally go back and edit the midi again if there's a range problem that had been missed or a part is just too high/too low, lather, rinse, repeat. Once I'm good with it, I then upload it for test with the band in game.
In the end, there's still a LOT to be done, even when one starts with a Midi!

So.... what's your method?

People all have their preferences. Actual song writers are going to usually favor writing it themselves. Actual musicians are going usually favor playing it themselves instead of using ABC files. Everyone else will vary based on preference with most taking the easy way of converting a MIDI file and them playing it as an ABC in the game. No way is wrong.

I started out writing the ABCs by hand, but quickly got tired of that. It was just way more work than I have time to spend doing. Now, I'll take a MIDI file that I like, toss it into LOTRO Midi Player and choose the tracks I want for each instrument, adjust them as needed, and so on and then save as ABC. I'll then listen to it in the game and make sure it sounds good. I wasn't happy with the differences in sound in the LOTRO ABC Player, so I don't use that for anything anymore. If I think the song needs adjusting, then I'll work on it manually. In many cases, it sounds good as-is, though.

Do either of you use premade ABC files and how do those usually work out? I've noticed there's quite a bit of folk and traditional music out there in various ABC libraries online. What would the process look like for working with those?

To just play? I do have some solo ones I've grabbed from Fatlute. As for the ones form other sites, they're generally melody line only, with no ornamentation.
Which leads me to the other use--as a starting point to develop for use in game. And for that, no--I am pretty terrible at coming up with harmonies/counterpoint/etc to turn it into something more than just the melody.

I've yet to use someone else's ABC. Though when the ABC system first came out, I couldn't go anywhere without people playing one of two (or both) of the ABCs I arranged

(Those ABCs no longer work in the new system. Given the enhancements, I might redo one of them. The other was just for kicks and grins.)

I would never say that the MIDI-to-ABC route is quick or easy. Yet, I have difficulty coming in after someone else to work on something. I don't know how they did things, and I have my own methods to keep me organized. I also prefer the challenge of that extra step for the original arranging.

Musically inclined? Me? I dunno. I'm rather good at scripting stuff to solve problems (as part of my job). I see this more as a puzzle to solve within a set of criteria, partially my criteria and partially the constraints of the system.

I've played piano (1st and still playing), keyboards (yes, it's different from piano), tuba, sousaphone (yes, there's a difference), tenor euphonium (like a mangled trombone with valves), valved trombone (like a trombone with valves, but easier to play), trumpet, tenor sax (and yes, different ranges of sax are different to play), double-bass (as an upright bass, no bowing), recorder (the whistle kind), and currently learning violin. Things still on my list: guitar and bagpipes. (If the neighbors survive the violin, I figure they'll be better prepared for the bagpipes... but nobody is really prepared for bagpipes... just better prepared.)

I used to sing Tenor. Then when my voice started changing, the instructor kept trying to force me to stay a Tenor. It actually became painful. So that's a loooong time gone. I've wondered about picking it up again, but my range is so limited now.

Does this qualify as musically inclined? Maybe.

Does any of this help me arrange ABC for LotRO? Barely. The instruments in LotRO are rather unique and present their own challenges through odd limitations that one might not find elsewhere. (I still find the C, and ^C, and _D, issue to be really annoying.)

Would using a MIDI file help? I doubt it. I'd rather start cooking a meal myself than having to redo someone else's cooking to my tastes. Since I expect so many differences to work through, I might as well throw it out and start over... or rather, just start from scratch and not bother with someone else's stuff.

This is my preference. I find no fun in "completing" (or fixing) someone else's work.

EDIT: I'm not a musician by trade. I make no public performances of any kind. It has been that way for 8 years now. By that, I'm not a musician. I was terrible in classes. I wanted to do my own thing my own way, tradition be darned. (Theory was just dumb to me. "I'll figure it out by listening. I don't care how many kids Beethoven had." I still don't know how many he had, and I'm not interested in looking it up.) I would get into arguments with the piano teachers over "fingerings". They would insist that the way written on the page was the only way anyone should play it when I could demonstrate something else that was easier on me to play the same thing. (I still ignore the fingerings and just figure out what works for me.) I would dare-say that I'm significantly self-taught. (That's something that the band instructors liked. They handed me an instrument, and I learned it without taking months of lessons.) I do not consider myself to be a 'musician'. I'm a hobbyist.

For me, I try and keep the songs our kinship place unique to us, so I don't post many online.
And tend to use ones that only our kin and members make.
Its nice to hear a musician's song and style, in the files they make I think

I also am not a real musician, I have composed a few things, using Babyalogic, but not all are great hehe.
I have several programs I use, for making abc files:

One program requires registration fee of 25 dollars, but darned worth it you can find other programs for free to edit midis but, I found Melody Assistant to be the best for it ( at least for me ) .
http://www.myriad-online.com/en/products/melody.htm

If you already have a program that can make, or edit midis then you are good on that part.
What I do With Melody Assistant, is I find a midi I like ( and even some I do not hehe ) then I make sure the notes are within the 3 octaves used by Lotro, a c6 and a c3 range ( in ABC notation that is c' and C, ) Anything within that range works.
Then, After I get my midi sounding like it should,
I look at my parts, listen to them and sorta evaluate with what instruments we have where they are best suited.
Electric Guitar sustains, and so does strings, so I usually stick those on the Horn. ( some cases Bagpipes )
Bass on Therobo, normal guitars pianos etc on guitar, Lead voice on Flute.
If I have say like too many staves in a song, say 8ish and I know our band numbers usually consist of 2 or 3 I combine staves too.

So say, I have 16 Staves total, I know I have Lute Therobo Harp Flute Clarinet Horn Bagpipes Drums and Cowbell to work with.
Cowbell is mono-toned, so its good for rhythm instrument only. I go through find ones that work together ( and do not conflict the melody ) I make new blank staves, ( a clean treble stave ) and label them all lute therobo harp flute ( etc ) then I combine my 16 staves into those clean staves. Now they are all piano, but they are for a reason, they are all within exact range of each other as long as they are within c6 and c3.
Next when you have your staves in order, export as midi1

Download Lotro Midi http://code.google.com/p/lotromidiplayer/ Load your midi file,
( I used to manually export to abc each stave of the midi with melody assistant but that requires hours and hours of extra work and then timing gets off some times so I do it this way now and it only takes minutes )
So your midi is now in lotro midi, you will see your staves that you labeled lute therobo etc.

Now say you have Lute Therobo Flute Horn and Drums for your song, first thing I do, is I select all but drums, and then look at what is the suggested number they have on the octave. You want your octaves on 0, -12, -24, -36 or 12 24 36 12 keeps them in the same key. This program tells you how many notes are out of range and so on also.
So, export all them Say the song is Neil Young's Trasher export as "trasher" then uncheck, all but lute, export that as lute, same with therobo flute and horn and drum.
Now, as it is I am building this song now, and it shows a transpose of -2 as suggested, with 0 notes out of range.

If I move this to 0, on this particular song, I have 24 notes out of range, but if I move it to -12 I have still a 0 notes out of range.
I want to ignore the suggestion of -2, and stick with the 0 12 etc thing, because it keeps it based on the key the song is in on the midi. If I did it on -2 it would change my key.
So now, I have Trasher.abc lute.abc therobo.abc .flute.abc horn.abc ( this song doesn’t have drum but for the sake of this note here I'll say we do have it hehe ) drum.abc Now, I check Therobo and Lute, and export this as strings.abc and I select Flute and Horn and export this as wind.abc
All parts as long as I keep them in the transposed range of 0, 12, etc will play together in a fellowship. Strings and Winds ( and drum ) make the complete song so it is much easier to play when you have low numbers in your group.

Now for your drum, export this at 0 always at 0 no matter how many it says are out of range ( lotro doesn’t have drums set properly as a standard midi set so we have to work around that ) here: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=320073
talks about the drum problems, and a small program can be used here to fix your drum staves, Read this post, and get both the drum note replacer and its config.cfg

Now you have your files, and you need to edit them!
download http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/site.htm
it is a great editing tool, you can open up all the staves at once and edit them because you will be putting them into one file.
open first your solo version "trasher" then open lute, therobo, flute, horn, drums, strings and wind.
You'll have them all in a row across the top so it is easy to work with.

Now there is some text here:

X: 1
T: Neil Young Trasher (4:46)
Z: Transcribed by LotRO MIDI Player: http://lotro.acasylum.com/midi
% Original file: Neil Young Trasher.mid
% Transpose: -12
L: 1/4
Q: 110
K: C

the X: line, is your number, it is really important in a batch file we are making for the song.
Any number here will work but I sorta set up a forumla so our kinship can take any file and just go from there without needing to look it up with a /playlist trasher* type command in the game.

MY forumla is like this:
% Hoppa's numeric instruments
% Pertaining to the x: line, here are some
% ideas I use for making a music file for multi-play.
% Lutes are 2 12 22 32 42 52 and so on
% Therobo/bass are 3 13 23 33 43 53 and so on
% Harps are 4 14 24 34 44 54 and so on
% Flutes are 5 15 25 35 45 55 and so on
% Clarinets are 6 16 26 36 46 56 and so on
% Horns are 7 17 27 37 47 57 and so on
% Pipes are 8 18 28 38 48 58 and so on
% Drums are 9 19 29 39 49 59 and so on
% Bells are 10 20 30 40 50 60 and so on
% 1 100 200 300 and so on are for Solo play ( different versions of same song etc. )
% Mulitple versions of the same song in multiplay, will follow same rules;
% For instance, lute of the same song, but different versions
% would be at x:2 and x:102 and so forth.
% Transcribed by (name here ) Written by (name here )
%

So for solo, I have x:1 for lute, I have 2, and for my string and wind I always do 102 for string and 105 for wind.

The T: line is also important, I always edit this to show which part it is helps us know when someone is ready and if they are on the right part.
T: Neil Young Trasher (4:46) becomes for my solo part: T: Neil Young Trasher ( Solo 4:46)

the Z: line is garbage and can be deleted.

anything after % is a note and ignored by the program so it is great to leave other people notes with it when they are looking at your song files.


So my
X: 1
T: Neil Young Trasher (4:46)
Z: Transcribed by LotRO MIDI Player: http://lotro.acasylum.com/midi
% Original file: Neil Young Trasher.mid
% Transpose: -12
L: 1/4
Q: 110
K: C

for my solo piece will look like :
X: 1
T: Neil Young Trasher ( Solo 4:46)
L: 1/4
Q: 110
K: C
+mp+

Notice the +mp+ above? that is the volume control it is a lotro only command, so we can adjust volumes on instruments.

Typically Horns are too loud and drums are too lout and lute is. horn and lute set well at +mp+ and drum at a +p+
The Volume range is
+ppp+
+pp+
+p+
+mp+
+mf+ ( which is default voume, but best to set it if you are using volume changes in other staves )
+f+
+ff+
+fff+

P is the lowest/softest and FFF is the loudest.


Now go through, and edit the headers of all your staves, then save all, (mainly because it just helps so much easier and less hassle with the program ) then copy each stave, and paste it after your text in your solo stave "trasher.abc"

Now, you can combine all these into one file.
I usually, use my solo file, ( for example trasher.abc is the solo file )
so the sets would be X:1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 102 and 105 all in one file set.

You can use Digero's ABC player to test make sure you uncheck the 102 and 105 ( or the other parts ) to hear it as you'd like to play in the game.

As long as you follow a method like this, you can play the full song, solo, duo, or any combination of it by adding parts as you have players. The song will all be within range and should sound good together!

I transcribe most songs by ear directly to ABC. Many of the songs I wanted to transcribe, such as the in-game soundtrack, did not have existing midi files.

The tools I use are a text editor, LOTRO Midi Player (for the live keyboard playing function), and a midi keyboard (m-audio axiom 49).

1. First I load a youtube or a mp3 of the song, and try to play along using the midi keyboard. The main elements I'm trying to pick out are: key, time signature, melody, bassline, chord progression. I'll also begin thinking about how best to assign parts to the LOTRO instruments.

2. I begin transcribing the song to ABC, going measure by measure. I rewind the mp3 many times and compare every couple bars to the ABC version.

3. For testing multi-part songs, I meet with the Eriador Music Society every week, and test with a live band. ABC Player made this easier, since I can check for major errors and fix them before meeting up with the band.

I've started going through some of those online folk/traditional ABC archives myself. It's time consuming, no idea what anything sounds like until I play it or the songs don't work in LoTRO or they just aren't ear-friendly, but it does pay off. I created a New Text File in my Music Folder (My Documents/The Lord of the Rings Online/Music) and paste the ABC file into it from the archive website. Then I save the file (.abc extension/files - all types) into Music Folder under some version of the complete song name.

With that done I alt-tab to my character and /play the tune with the intended instrument (for Hagall, the lute). If it goes well, I'd say one in three or one in four do, I'll copy and paste the melody into the file a couple more times, to give it a bit of length so's one can roleplay or fool around without worrying about the song ending prematurely, and save it. Done.

In some cases I've had fast Irish jigs or reels that were meant to be played very quickly on fiddles but sound really, really, terrible on in-game instruments. I'll just adjust the X (tempo) down by half or more and play it again. Sometimes you end up with some amazingly haunting melodies. This is where most of my "Elvish" songs come from because when played on the harp they can be very entrancing.

My Hobbit songs are English folk songs or Morris dances for the most part, my Mannish songs tend to be Celtic tunes of various kinds (Irish or Scottish). I haven't quite figured out what Dwarvish music would sound like to my own satisfaction yet.

The beauty of these old folk archives is that they're not only easy to use but you end up with songs that sound right for the setting (if you're a little picky in your selection).

Anyhow that's what I've learned with my very primitive, scavenger-like, approach to LoTRO's ABC music system.

Hagall
Landroval

Originally Posted by Mandash

I haven't quite figured out what Dwarvish music would sound like to my own satisfaction yet.

Personally, I see Dwarven music as being similar to eastern European (German, Polish, etc) or Russian music. I've done some Russian music that I have liked the sound of... even with only one instrument without chords. I haven't taken time to work on more music like that with chords and additional instruments because I just personally enjoy Celtic more. Others may prefer other music for Dwarves, of course. But check it out and see what you think.

That does sound very cool. I'll look into it!

I figure Dwarven music would be Germanic or Scandanavian folk. After all, the origins of Dwarven lore comes from those areas.

Still given how it seems a majority of people these days portray Dwarves with Scottish accents, I wouldn't be surprised to find folk music from Scotland in the company of Dwarves despite their actual folk origins.

Here's the thing. I know what Russian folk music sounds like, very dirge-like or wild by turns (esp. Cossack), which sounds like it might suit the dwarvish temperament very well. And if I really wanted to get picky about it, I could draw the connection between the Norse immigration into the Volga to control trade centers along the river there leading to the rise of Rus as we know it. So the folk music might be influenced by Scandinavian culture?

Still, I'll check out Scandinavian folk too. See what's available in ABC out there. I really don't know anything about that though.

Regarding tempo, through trial and error, my band has determined that for most bluegrass, 85% of original tempo works out nicely for the game. I'm not sure if the game actually speeds the tunes up, or the nature of the sounds they use does it, but anything faster and you get nasty blurring and inadvertent chord effects. Same applies to faster jigs.
Now, if you have bagpipes in your fast tune, I'm so sorry. They clip very badly on short notes. And slowing the tempo only helps marginally.

Originally Posted by Siegfriedpf

Regarding tempo, through trial and error, my band has determined that for most bluegrass, 85% of original tempo works out nicely for the game.

Haven't tried bagpipes yet, but I have also noticed the faster tempo with everything I've done so far. I hope they don't change/fix it because I'd have to go change it on everything I've done so far.

I've found that manual slurring (holding notes into the following note of a different pitch, creating a very brief chord) helps bring out really short notes.

I find Scandinavian folk music to have some Celtic flair to it. I don't find it to be like stereotypical Russian folk. I think it's more "peppy" and less angry (as I mentioned, a stereotype). I've got a couple of "traditional" things I'm working on from that region.

My method is straightforward enough.

I select a promising midi and edit it in Anvil Studio. The methods that I use for adapting the music to LOTRO's limitations have been developed over the past year plus through trial and error. My amateur knowledge of music (I practically breathed music back in high school.) and my mediocre skill in reading sheet music are definite boons in my efforts. After the music is edited to my satisfaction, I convert it with either midi2abc or LOTRO midi player. (midi2abc because that's how I was taught by my mentor, LOTRO midi player because there are some things midi2abc is not good at.) I test the music with my kinmates and make any necessary adjustments.

I tend to love using flute and despise the in game bagpipe. I work with a huge variety of music types from the Renaissance lute tunes of John Dowland to complex classical pieces like Beethoven's 6th symphony 1st movement to fun modern stuff like The Beatles. I have great ambitions for in game music projects that I would like to see through in the next year.

I do not put any of my abcs on The Fate Lute. Most of my files are for the use of my kinship and our allies only. As with Hoppa, we try to stay unique. I have shared my knowledge of the music system and some of my files, mostly solo pieces, on my mylotro blog earning me the forum title Musical Scribe of the Ages. Though I'm currently entirely turned off by the new mylotro and will have to find another medium to use.

The music system is the one thing that has me irrevocably hooked to this game.

Originally Posted by Northman

Would using a MIDI file help? I doubt it. I'd rather start cooking a meal myself than having to redo someone else's cooking to my tastes. Since I expect so many differences to work through, I might as well throw it out and start over... or rather, just start from scratch and not bother with someone else's stuff.

I guess I don't view the midi as the midi maker's work. It's still the composer's work. They're just translating the music from one medium to another. And that's what I'm doing too. I suppose in a way I'm using the midi as a shortcut, but well, I'm fine with that. I'm a mom of 3 kids, a kinship leader and an all around busy woman. I have neither the time nor the patience for the other way.

Perhaps if I was a perfectionist about preserving the original music it would be different. But I realize that my role is as a translator. My goal is to make the music sound good in LOTRO, not to make it sound just like the original.

Originally Posted by Mandash

I haven't quite figured out what Dwarvish music would sound like to my own satisfaction yet.

Perhaps you might try Jewish music? Tolkien claimed the Jewish peoples as an inspiration for his Dwarves.

The person trying to remake the original music in LotRO will be trying until their undying days. As I mentioned, I like the challenge of working within the restrictions and the coding aspect.

As I also mentioned, I don't like fixing other people's "translations" and having to deal with the issues in achieving what I'm looking to have due to someone else. I'd rather fix things from my own efforts. It's less frustrating. I have to deal with issues that other people cause all the time. That's very frustrating.

Originally Posted by Fionnuala

Perhaps you might try Jewish music? Tolkien claimed the Jewish peoples as an inspiration for his Dwarves.

Would this count?

I'm not sure if that's how I would have pictured Dwarvish music.

Originally Posted by Northman

Would this count?

I'm not sure if that's how I would have pictured Dwarvish music.

No, that doesn't sound Jewish at all.

Here's a song from Israel I remember singing in choir back in high school that I always liked.

Or perhaps music like Fiddler on the Roof? Can't you just hear the Dwarves singing "Tradition!!!"

LOL! Now you have me wanting to make a dwarf just so he can play some Fiddler on the Roof music! I can definitely see that!

"If I were a rich man...."

Actually, there was a PBS (I think) special that may have been from Broadway of the Fiddler on the Roof or at least some of the songs. The singer who did "If I were rich man" was even better than the original music. And he had the perfect look for the song. Wish I could find the soundtrack from that performance. I'd replace my current soundtrack with it!

I've got it in my head to try my hand at Klezmer music in game, but haven't gotten around to hunting for it yet.

I transcribe the majority of my work from sheet music directly into Melody Assistant and from there export it to .abc. I have used a couple of tunes that I don't have the sheet music to from Fat Lute but most of my stuff is transcribed. The only problem I come across it the damn 3 octave limit that the player has. If I'm doing a solo piece, I'll move the bass up a octave to make the notes fit. If I'm doing a band, I'll leave it alone and assign the Theorbo to it.

The only midi I've used was for when I did "Still Alive" and that was using a mixture of the midi and the sheet music I found on-line.

My process is most like Astleigh's, since I too have a music background. I compose the ABC files directly in Microsoft Word tables, for the most part. I do this among other reasons because I have written Visual Basic for Applications (VBA) macros that allow me to transpose sections or an entire piece, count beats to help me identify timing issues, and create my parts files, both one file per instrument and a master ABC file for the song. For raw materials, I use sound recordings like Astleigh or songs I remember from way back when or, most often in recent days, sheet music. Making an ABC arrangement from sheet music bears a close resemblance to practicing a composer's work on the piano for me in that I look hard at what the composer wrote and experiment with ways to sculpt the sound within those intentions. After awhile of being particular that way, though, I sometimes throw originalism to the wind and add something of my own that I think will make it sound better in LotRO.

As time-consuming as this process is sometimes, it makes me think hard about what pieces I care enough about to spend time on--so my enjoyment of the final product is usually greater than it is when I pick something less carefully.

I try to put everything I make on The Fat Lute, though I've fallen behind a little. Yes, it's important that we "musick" Middle Earth with the sounds of music, but in the interest of spreading appreciation and use of LotRO's music system, we need to empower people to make the music themselves. Play a piece for someone and you've got a spectator; teach them how to play it and you've got a fellow "musician"--maybe even another advocate for LotRO music. Gamers aren't here for more opportunities to be spectators--they can watch TV for that. For teens and adults to really get involved in something, it's got to be "hands on." We see some of that expressed in some concert-goers' desire to "do something" while they listen. I guess you could say the same about someone who jumps up and tries to steal the spotlight; they're looking for more "being" and less watching, however inappropriately.

Any personal pleasure I get over making an ABC arrangement isn't tied to the fact that I can control who plays it or how it is used; the pleasure stands on its own legs, no matter who plays the arrangement or how or where. I do respect others' rights to control access to their own arrangements if they want to, but I would encourage them instead to build a legacy for themselves of musical generosity while they walk these lands. There are some things that are too good not to share. I don't think any ABC arranger would be jeopardizing his or or her livelihood by sharing the arrangements. Consider Charles Dickens's A Christmas Carol and see if its central lesson might apply to what you do with your music.

for the most part I agree Freepeoples
You give someone a fish, they eat for a day, you teach them how to fish they eat for a lifetime,
Your message in that is clear, and our sharing how we build these files do just that

This is where I differ though.
I rarely share files outside my kinship, because I want that we play to be not the flavour of the month, but some what unique, and when people walk by they hear a song we do, they know it is our kinship.
What saddens me, is when I hear beautiful pieces of work, original pieces of work, played 1/3rd of the way through then stopped, and half of Gilligan's isle theme is played followed by the Darth Vader theme...
I know artists that put their hearts into each piece, whether or not it is original, or just painstakingly editing a midi.

Whats worse is seeing a band playing their signature song, about half way through as a group just to have someone run up in the middle of the song whip out a clarinet and play the song that the band made, and is playing, out of sync and disruptively.

I am not saying people should not share their works, and I know some people are more than pleased to hear someone else playing their song. But along the way, the meaning, the heart, and the love that the artist put into it, fades away when it becomes too commonplace that everyone plays it.


I look forward to more players of music becoming composers, and or transposers of music, even if they are only editing midis like me.

People need to start somewhere, and the Fat Lute is a great starting place, but my hope is people wont rely on those artists, but instead take note from all our methods and ideas here, and work on building their own for playing.

I use the procedure the OP states, almost exactly, except at the end I usually play the midifile and the ABC one after another at the end to make sure I'm happy with the translation.

I used to ammend my drum parts by hand or create them from scratch, but I don't need to do that any more now the Drum Conversion Project is finished.

I can't play any instruments in RL, so this system has been a really fun learning curve for me!

I put my ABCs on TFL because I love to see folks getting excited about songs I enjoy. I think it's a shame that there are people out there who won't share.

I'll gladly share stuff that I've arranged of other people's work (and I've explained that I'll do it without sheet music or playing MIDI's -- by ear of recordings that I've purchased and a piano alone).

I'll not share stuff that I've created without a source other than myself. Sorry. That's just my preference. Just as I'll not grind my way through someone else's ABC or MIDI, I would rather not have someone reinterpret things I have made originally.

There's another style I'll not share on TFL:

I recall a request that someone made for a Monty Python song. I arranged one for the one-note, first iteration of the LotRO ABC system back when it began and I posted it here in these forums. I heard several complaints about everyone playing that song.

What I found sad is that I feel that another piece I arranged around the same time for the same one-note system was much prettier and way more appropriate -- a solo piece based completely on a classical guitar arrangement for a Russian folk song. I would rather hear complaints about an over-played song that seemed to fit much more with the LotR setting. Thankfully, the old recording I have has much, much more to it, and the new system will make the remaining variations easier and more accurate in LotRO. I feel I should upgrade and complete the piece someday. That version, I will place on TFL as it is merely an arrangement.

Though, that second piece I mentioned is based completely on the modern 6-string guitar and not the multi-course lute of course (no pun intended). So it is only the style that I feel would sound right in the LotR setting.

(Neither work in the current LotRO system. Someone else posted them on TFL and kept my forum name in the ABC file so I was okay with that.)

That said, I really hate hearing a properly tuned (with the major 3rd down from the root and not a 4th) Vader's theme much less a poorly tuned (with the 4th instead of the major 3rd) version. While I feel people should start somewhere, I feel they should start somewhere a bit less immersion-shattering. If they MUST use Vader's theme, I think they should go with lullaby of Vader's death and not the march.

This goes for things like Whitesnake rock music. While I heard an excellent version or The Streetbeater and found myself a bit amazed, I cringed to hear it in LotRO.

I suppose, though, some people will only learn the system by having something that interests them. I only wish they were equally interested in the setting of LotRO and not just the ability to play something. I find it to be another piece of the LotRO ABC puzzle, but apparently, it's only a necessary piece to few and others prefer to leave such a puzzle incomplete.

If I create such an immersion-breaking work, it's only for my kinship's ears and they know it. They find such performances to be interesting and fascinating, but they equally want us to be part of the LotR immersion. Concerts in our kinship hall may include such works, but that's about it. I'll not share these on TFL, either.

I don't consider this to be greedy as some seem to be suggesting. I consider this to be considerate to the lore.

It'll take much more convincing arguments than I've heard so far to get me to share those on TFL or other places. If someone needs a place to start, I don't want them to start there because of us. There are plenty of others that are only interested in playing anything.

I've also found classical music and medieval and earlier folk music and world music to be much more challenging, but then, it is simply more challenging for one who listens to recreate something. It's also very educating on those styles. (It took me weeks to figure out what was wrong with Ravel's bolero, though that's stretching the usage of the word classical for that particular piece and folk wouldn't even remotely apply. It's a terrible example of a traditional Spanish bolero and seems to be more interested in experimenting with Jazz in classical than being classical.)

I forgot where I was going with this so I'm getting back to this new server that's now demanding my attention again. Apologies for errors, inconsistency, and bad comprehension wherever I'm certain they are.

Originally Posted by FreePeoplesUnite

Yes, it's important that we "musick" Middle Earth with the sounds of music, but in the interest of spreading appreciation and use of LotRO's music system, we need to empower people to make the music themselves.

I agree, but for that purpose I think it's better to teach them how to make the music than to give them the music I've made. That's why I wrote many guides on my mylotro blog on how I make my abcs. And now that I've given up on mylotro (grumble) I will be revising those guides and posting them on the Casual Stroll to Mordor blog. I hope to show people that it is a lot easier than most think. A lot of people stand in awe of the songs MVT plays around Bree each week, but a lot of those we can whip up in 20 minutes or so. Anyone can do it (at least anyone can do it the midi>abc way) and I'd like to show people that.

I used to share a lot of my solo abcs and some duets and other misc. abcs on my blog. Now I'll find another way to do it. But my kin is a performing kin and we like to keep our performances unique and fresh. If every street corner band could play my husband's rendition of "Money for Nothing" then it wouldn't be MVT's signature song. (I want my MVT!) We go to a lot of effort for our concerts and events, including music that is made by and for MVT for each one. We're proud of our music arrangements.

Originally Posted by Northman

I've also found classical music and medieval and earlier folk music and world music to be much more challenging, but then, it is simply more challenging for one who listens to recreate something. It's also very educating on those styles. (It took me weeks to figure out what was wrong with Ravel's bolero, though that's stretching the usage of the word classical for that particular piece and folk wouldn't even remotely apply. It's a terrible example of a traditional Spanish bolero and seems to be more interested in experimenting with Jazz in classical than being classical.)

That's interesting. I've found Renaissance and Classical music to be much easier to convert than anything else, in a way. Composers generally followed rules back then, as opposed to modern bands who mostly just do whatever they want. For instance, Beethoven is vastly less difficult for me to work with than Yes was. (Those Yes people were completely insane, by the way. Just looking at a midi for Yours is No Disgrace is enough to to drive one mad.)

Now, once you get past the Classical period it does become more challenging. Danse Macabre from the Romantic period has been a challenge. Bolero is, of course, from the Impressionist period. I've always wanted to try that, but I'm aware of others who have already. But it seems to me that the main challenge in such works is the reduction. Danse Macabre started out with over 20 tracks. Theoretically, you could maintain all the tracks and assemble over 20 people to play it, but I have an instinct that this would sound terrible in LOTRO. I opted for reducing it to 7 tracks and that was the hard part. After that it's cake.

*chuckle* I'm still struggling with Danse Macbre without success, although I do have a solo bagpipe version....

As for posting music--
All of my tunes get posted to the website GHMS shares with EMS, with the exception of a few solo tunes that I provide only to very few folks, either as a gift or in exchange.
I post a few songs to Fat Lute--I'd like some to be fairly confined to the Landroval music makers I partner with on shows and the like, but do want to keep a supply of high-quality music available to the general community. And, to be honest, there's a lot on Fat Lute that... needs work.
Which is why things like Fionnuala's how-to guides, Haperella's gatherings on Crickhollow, and the discussion on this thread is valuable--it'll help other folks figure out how to do their own music and generally raise the quality and availability for all.

Give Liszt's (The Franz) solo version a shot as the starting point in the reduction of Danse Macabre. (He even has the fugue portion done really well. Watched a video of someone playing it. Looks like he has it written to toss the melodies back and forth between the hands.)

I'm not certain what rules were applied in classical as it seems the ones I listen to are experimenting with sounds. Then again as I hated Music Theory as I stated, I couldn't tell you which is from Baroque or Impressionist or whatever periods. I just group it all into classical.

As for medieval folk, I don't know what other people listen to, but the stuff I find has really complicated changes and harmonies, not that 1st, 4th and 5th stuff that we hear everywhere in modern music. It was like they weren't aware of any rules. I really doubt they knew what a Picardy Third was even though they used it.

I'm a glutton for punishment. *grins*

I write them all out in notepad. I usually compose on my acoustic guitar, or hear something in my head and find the notes on the guitar, and then type it out. I don't have a midi instrument (and even if I did, I'm not really good on keyboards anyway)...so, for me, the midi-to-abc approach simply doesn't work for me. It's definitely time consuming, I'll give you that. I use an offline ABC player to get a feel for how the different parts are meshing, and when I think it's ready for a beta test, I'll gather some friends in-game and test it out there.

As far as covers are concerned, I'll play a cover song now and then - usually something that sounds vaguely lore-appropriate, not the nth version of the Super Mario Bros. theme song, Enter Sandman, or something by Nine Inch Nails. (Not that I don't like Metallica or NIN, but as mentioned by another poster, I just don't enjoy it in this context. Very immersion-breaking.) But as far as writing abc's, I'd just rather compose original material than create a rendition of someone else's music. YMMV...

For sure, the more ABC makers, the merrier. I guess I don't see the act of posting arrangements publicly as the end, but as encouraging a beginning. If I were someone without a musical background and the first ABC file I ever tried to play sounded like nails on a chalkboard to me, I might not pursue it any longer. I agree that many publicly available files (maybe even my own!) leave something to be desired. That's why I think the more high-quality stuff is out there, the better off musical life gets for everyone. At least I like to think that a few of mine could be described as high-quality. Part of the lure that will draw new arrangers is to see what's possible, to see that we're not making (sniff) greeting card ditties--well, at least not all the time.

When I first got started making ABCs, I imagined all the lore-appropriate pieces I would arrange, much as has been suggested--folk or else "classical" music from the 1600s backward. I've done a few of those and will do many more. It has been said that some people get more liberal as they age. If that's so, I must be on the fast track with Father Time. A year ago I would not have imagined myself enjoying some of the kinds of music I've been listening to by various bands in Lotro. Strangely, I don't find my broadening palate as immersion-breaking as I imagined.

Prof. Tolkien lived at a particular time and place and I'm sure had his own musical tastes and ideas of the kinds of music that might have reached the ears of the free in Middle Earth. I think some people genuinely believe they are honoring him by picking "his" music--and maybe he would agree, on the basis of their faith. If it were me, I think I would get tired of people bending their musical efforts to what they think I would like. My ears would eventually long for something unlike anything I've heard before, but that's *most meaningful to the players.* Listening to something as an act of love to the musicians instead of because you like it or understand it can be just as satisfying as "musical comfort food." Bilbo himself had such experiences with the dwarves in The Hobbit. The dwarves' songs were not picked to meet some standard of his, or even songs he musically understood, but he loved them just the same for their untamed beauty.

In the immortal words of Gollum, "Give it to us raw and wriggling!"

Maybe the good professor would tell us today, after we had played him a few good folk dances, "Now, surprise me!" From what I've heard many fine bands and soloists play, we wouldn't disappoint him!

Immersion to me has come to mean letting music (like anything else in Middle Earth) happen to me, familiar or not, and (dare I say it?) high quality or not. I'm not going to pretend I can tolerate constant immersion--we all need air.

Sorry to get off on this tangent, Siegfriedpf. A little bit of the ethnomusicology student is coming out here I guess. But can I slip this post into this thread on account of it being a consideration on how we approach making music? Please?

I'm going to have to draw a vague line, though. As someone said, the nth version of Super Mario Bros. theme... I mean... really? I feel that crosses well outside the uncertain boundary of actually trying or giving a darn. Broad tastes mean nothing when faced with blatant apathy.

When someone loves music, it comes through either in their own efforts with scripting (no matter the abstract judgment of 'quality') or in the selections they choose to play from others (equally without restrictions of 'quality'). When someone doesn't care, it also comes through.

I would think that someone wishing to honor Tolkien with their music in his world would, first, care about music in Tolkien's world. Without that, it usualy ends up being robotic noise of some attention-getting device. Raw? Certainly. Tasteless? That, too.

Want to create music? Care about it. Then, you'll do what it takes to learn. Then, you'll get all the attention that you'd need if you need any at all.

Care about it. It's that simple.

Agree with the last 2 posts,
FreePeople states things very nicely....


But I will state that Music is in the ear, (and Heart) of the beholder. I will not judge anyone's "taste" in Music. If some one enjoys playing music in Tolkien world of a 21st century's video game, who am I to judge. I love The Beatles music, and many other songs from the 70's 80's 90's..... that I personaly feel DO transpose very well into Tolkiens world, and sound "lore" appropriate in my ears. If other don't feel the same way, that is there opinion, and I respect that.

Originally Posted by Northman

I would think that someone wishing to honor Tolkien with their music in his world would, first, care about music in Tolkien's world.

Here's the thing though. We don't actually know anything about what music in Tolkien's world sounded like. We know to some extent what instruments would have been used (which the in game instruments are based on) but we don't actually know what kind of note combinations minstrels and composers of Middle-earth would have created. Music is, when you get down to it, just a series of tones that someone's imagination came up with. And, to an extent, what note combinations and what styles of music are authentic to a particular period depends on what people in that time period were able to imagine and nothing more.

A lot of people claim that Middle-earth is medieval in nature and so fall back on the idea that the only music that would be authentic in LOTRO is medieval or renaissance or at least Celtic. My personal opinion is that this is a gross and false over-simplification of Middle-earth and that Tolkien would probably be insulted by it. Bree certainly owes much to the medieval or renaissance period, but the Shire is clearly more like 18th or 19th century England while Rohan is more akin to the dark ages of Europe. Gondor is entirely unique. It is what would have been had there really been refugees from Atlantis who were far more advanced culturally and scientifically than the rest of the world. Perhaps a bit like Rome at its height. But Middle-earth is, at it's heart, a fantasy world, as Tolkien stated in his letters. (Folk like to claim that Tolkien created Middle-earth to be a prehistoric and mythic version of our real world, but it is clear from his letters that this was only an early intention of his that was given up as Middle-earth evolved in conception.) In a fantasy world one cannot say what kind of musical combinations of tones minstrels would have come up with. One cannot say what would have been authentic. Therefore, logically, nothing from the real world is "authentic".

But, Fionnuala, surely you cannot argue that a street band playing the sounds of "Born to be Wild" or "Play that Funky Music" could be construed as fitting in any interpretation of Middle-earth? Well, no, I wouldn't argue that. But I, like FreePeoplesUnite, cannot stand constant immersion. Sometimes I just like to have fun. And like durinsbane, sometimes that fun means playing Beatles tunes in Bree-Town.

Orc Rock!

Dwarven Heavy Metal music ( not what you think, since it mainly consists of hitting a shield with a smithy hammer )

Music by the hobbit Gordo Lightfoot or his cat, Stevens.

Surprisingly, there are a lot of metal and rock that work well in Tolkien's world with the instruments lotro has for us.

A lot of Queen, works well. A lot of Led Zeppelin, in fact much of it has Tolkienish Lyrics.

I did Ozzies Diary of a Madman, and it sounds really good.

Our band has a variety of every type and style of music minus "Country and Western" because... well its Country and Western... *chuckles*
Nasal whining, cheating lyrics, and that cow boy steel guitar sound, drives me batty.. but enough about that...


It is funny really what we do feel and find appropriate.
I just did a song from a Harry Potter film, sounds really nice. Yet, I have avoided, music from Star Wars, and music from Star Trek, why? future scheme I guess. Plus the Darth Vader theme everyone plays over and over.

I have done some nice Final Fantasy music, but, though I think it was fnny when I heard someone play the Mario Theme, I overlooked that to make.
We did Orc Busters, ( Ghost Busters ) for Halloween last year or the year before I forget hheehe... and sang new random lyrics.
I have done a lot of music from 1100's through to 2010 Some people might not think all we play are appropriate I suppose, but many are there for the spirit of fun.

The ones I did from Queen that sounded nice was Black Queen, White Queen, and, Death on two legs.
I did Bohemian Rhapsody, definitely not a lore appropriate sounding one thanks to Waynes World. However, I did it because I like to redo lyrics, and that one gets me a lot.
Usually on a foggy terrain in the game when we are looking for something, ( Fornost Bears for example ) then it starts... " I see the sillotetta of a bear... " or " I see the sillotetta of some ore,... gonna smush gonna smush.. with a smith hammer..." Anyways, hehe all for fun..
Ultima had some great songs too, for a game.

I did Gary Numan's "Cars" with reworked lyrics about Waymeet, 'Here in my cart"

Also did the theme to Firefly

Take my love, To Lonelands
That is where we cannot stands
We don't care, if the Ale is free..
You can't take this pie from me
Take our ponies, to the feed sack,
Tell them we ain't comin' back
Burn the hams and boil the peas
You can't take this pie from me
There's no place I can be
Since I found The Party Tree
But you can't take this pie from me...

Humour, and general silliness, can cause me to make some unusual songs to play. But also I do requests too, the kin might want to hear.

My persona favourites though are 60's70's ballad type music, and music from great games of the past, Ultima, Bards Tale, Secret of mana, Final Fantasy and so on..

I know this thread has really gotten a bit off topic, but in a way it still is on topic, because How we build is also related to why we build the songs, and what inspires us to build them.

*rambles on...*
You begin playing "Led Zeppelin Ramble On ( Solo 4:46)."

In the GHMS catalog we have, "Paradise by a Buckland Lamp", "Breetown Buggy", "Life on the Greenway", and coming this week, "Palantir"--a tune about a wonderful device that can transmit pictures across the world!

I see many, many examples of people who care about Music in Tolkien's world, with one exception of someone who doesn't seem to care what anyone plays.

I see people saying this or that sounds good in LotRO. Those people are the ones who have given some thought to the sounds of LotRO. Such music will echo the same thoughtfulness.

Sure. People can and will play whatever they want, but I will not give even a glance to those who are playing with apathy. Effort equals the reward. They don't care, I won't give them the time of day much less any tip, but I would trade gold to those who have put their hearts into the music.

Again, those who care will do whatever it takes to make music in LotRO, whether it's from MIDI, from manual scripting, from something new or learning it all from scratch. That's all it really takes to make music.

Those who don't care will continue to play horrible renditions of Super Mario Bros. or the out-of-tune Vader March without any regard to the people they force to listen to it. Those who care might even start there, but they'll quickly rise above.

When I see the same person playing the same horrible thing in high-traffic areas over and over again, I think I have an accurate guess as to why they're there. They've crossed beyond a boundary that has a very large neutral zone. It doesn't take a connoisseur to hear apathy. Taste is subjective and fluid, but apathy is the immovable object.

(Love is the unstoppable force. That is why I say that Love and Hate are not opposites, but Love and Apathy are. When stripped to the core, hate crimes are actually born of Apathy. True Hate of something is born of caring for something else that was hurt. That, however, is off-topic.)

Back to it, the examples most recently gave are showing signs of a love of Music and of LotR. Never lose that.

I cannot say it enough: If you want to create music, care about it, and you'll find a way, however that may be.

Say it with me: If you want to create music, care about it, and you'll find a way, however that may be.

Repeat that as many times as it takes to understand it.

This thread has been totaly derailed....

I think any future debate on this subject should be put in a new post, or better yet, done in private chat with the people that are being refered to......

BTW--Telstar (aka Palantir) turned out nicely--we played it in our set last night.