Thread: Seriously sick of the Legendary Lottery.

The LI system is WAI in that it is an endless grind. They want it to be an endless grind that can never get you what you want to stop hardcore players from asking for new content as they're still trying to grind LIs. However it upsets hardcore gamers who want every game to have endless "endgame content" so they can raid nonstop for a year without repeating anything and that is unplayable by non hardcore gamers. (many hardcore gamers will deny that when you call them on it but will show it in there actions and grumble about the non hardcore gamers) NOONE who actually plays the game likes it unless they're a masochist. It makes non hardcore gamers want to quit as its something they can never get right.

You guys need to get over it. It's been in the game for two years now, We are in the casual friendly part of the cycle now, everyone who wants one can get an adequate 2nd ager with only moderate work. The only thing that is missing is the outrageous ixp bounty quests. Soon we'll get the ultra rare 1st agers which will only available to hard core raiders (or the extremely lucky), then they'll become common, then we'll all have to dump em in the chipper because the lvl 70 ones come out. And the wheel goes on.

When an ingame item system like the Legendary Item System in Lotro becomes a mega time killer then i just quit, leave and/or play another game. Level 65 and then grinding for the perfect item over weeks and month ? heh no thnx..

i guess my family is more importand than that.... i feel sorry for the addicted players that waste their lifetime in grinding for some virtual game items...

I dont like the whole >>>randomized<<< legendary system in Lotro btw, thats why i just kept my 1st weapon/shield etc etc and good...

RANDOM stats are always Dissapointing over and out.....

Originally Posted by twittfounder

Well...the good news is symbols are dropping like chicklets. The bad news is i'm on mini book 6...and still haven't found what i'm looking for. Keep trying!

<~~approaching the magic number 20 in my attempts to craft a 65 second age class item; check out my thread if you like...

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...83#post5057683

Does anyone remember how the LIs were first described during the hype up of Moria? I do. Weapons and class items that will grow with the player. Deeds of their own similar to our own deeds that grow the Item by how it is used.

If only they would have kept to that ideal. I for one would have no issue spending the time to complete the deeds for the Legacies I need for my play style. If I use an item to kill I get credit towards the skills used to kill with. If I use it for healing I get credit for those skills used while healing. Then we have to pick which legacies we want to apply at various stages just like we do with our own traits. Then we have LIs that grow with the user in a manner in accordance with how said item is used.

The random nature is bad enough. What irks me the most though is that the LI defines the way that the character develops and grows. A toon essentially stops growing when they fall into LI levels. Instead of a toons damage growing because of the "age and experience" of the warrior, instead it is 100% gated by the LI. That doesn't make any sense. Some one else in the thread said it better, but what made legendary weapons legendary was the hero using it. It wasn't the other way a round. So the combination of both random as well as necessity is just "no fun".

Cross-posting my solution - the LOTRO store!

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ustomizable-LI

Would appreciate your thoughts!

I remember in good old Ultima Online (yes there is a point that ties to LI here) that you leveled certain skills by using the skills. So whatever you used, leveled up.

Why not do the something similar with LI's?

It would automatically match the LI to the playstyle of the person using it, and eliminate the "lottery".

Ex. for an RK, they make a "healing stone" and heal alot while it is equpped. It gradually gets healing legacies matched to the skill they use most often... If they get another stone and equip it while they are DPSing, it gets DPS legacies matched to the skills they use most often....

Ex. for a Champion. Champ A has a play style of always being in fervour and dishing out lots of AOE, his weapon will gradually get AOE and Fervour related legacies. Champ B has a play style of using Strikes line (single target) to build fervour quickly and drop single targets fast (yes there are champs that play like this, not me tho). Champ B's weapon would get legacies for strikes line and criticals....

It is an evaluative system. I am sure it would not be as easy to implement as the legendary lottery...however LI's are supposed to be "legendary" and "epic", so don't they deserve a "legendary system"?

Originally Posted by R1P

Cross-posting my solution - the LOTRO store!

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ustomizable-LI

Would appreciate your thoughts!

Personally I would like to keep the store out of the LI system.

I'm okay with Micro-Transactions...but by tying LIs too deeply into the store it would "force" micro-transactions for subscribing players and lead to VIPs possibly spending way over thier monthly allowance to get what might be "required" to run certain raids/group content.

I just think there is a better (and more FUN) solution out there (not necessarily mine) that doesn't involve "selling players LI's".

My point: by simply dumping customizable LI's into the store it takes away any fun and intrigue that could be implemented into the system.

I guess it is kind of like the difference between people who buy a new sports car and those who like to fix up old muscle cars (or mod newer sports cars). One person just wants to buy status, while the other truly is an enthusiast. As far as gaming goes I would rather be an enthusiast than buy status. I would rather put work into a "fun" (not the current) system of the "epic" LI's we were promised.

Yea its gettin pretty annoying. I'm up to 8 hunter bows and they've all sucked. All I want are both crits and barbed bleed dmg but I just cant get it. And my obsession to get a decent bow is stoppin me from saving superior 3rd marks for annuminas gear :/

Originally Posted by bastiat1

Cry me a river. They are LEGENDARY items. The really legendary ones are supposed to be rare. You're not supposed to have a 1,000 peole with Glamdring.

Right, legendary. How is grinding thousands of these "legendary" items legendary? They've been reduced to the level of trash, there's nothing legendary about them. Gandalf didn't go through 100 different swords before he found Glamdring.

Originally Posted by spiderwort

I have had a few friends combining t2 or t3 relics to crit and receive several t8 and t9 relics.

Not to be 'that guy' but: pics or it didn't happen. As far as I'm aware this is impossible in the current system. You can only crit two tiers above your current. So if you're combining T3 you can only get T3, T4, or T5 even with Super-Crits.
You can get really nice Super-Crits though, crit on a T6 combine and pull out 3 or 4 T8s etc. But it can't jump that many tiers.

Originally Posted by Sneezer

Ex. for an RK, they make a "healing stone" and heal alot while it is equpped. It gradually gets healing legacies matched to the skill they use most often... If they get another stone and equip it while they are DPSing, it gets DPS legacies matched to the skills they use most often....

Ex. for a Champion. Champ A has a play style of always being in fervour and dishing out lots of AOE, his weapon will gradually get AOE and Fervour related legacies. Champ B has a play style of using Strikes line (single target) to build fervour quickly and drop single targets fast (yes there are champs that play like this, not me tho). Champ B's weapon would get legacies for strikes line and criticals....

It is an evaluative system. I am sure it would not be as easy to implement as the legendary lottery...however LI's are supposed to be "legendary" and "epic", so don't they deserve a "legendary system"?

While that would be better than what we have now, it still wouldn't be a 'good' system in my opinion. For example, my Champ doesn't use a lot of AoE when solo, so the only way to grind an AoE weapon would be through group work or using inefficient skill rotations when solo (Or my Mini doesn't do much healing solo, or my Warden focuses on DPS solo, etc). Since most of this game is solo now (sadly), and there are lots of classes whose solo play is vastly different than their group play, it would either stunt their group LI growth or force them to solo as if they were in a group. Both of which are better than the current luck based system, but still not great options.
If, however, you added on the skirmish soldier trait system idea I've seen several people mention over the past few months, then I fully agree. Your skill usage and trait set up should help form your LI. -- The skirmish solider idea is making a framework like the skirmish solider traits (or our own traits) where you can slot different legacies and bonuses and appearances to fully customize your LI, and then grind them up by killing things or using specific skills.

Originally Posted by bastiat1

I just don't get why everyone EXPECTS to have a PERFECT LI.

I am sooooo tired of the plain vanilla, settle for less, mediocre carebear sentiment above. Firstly, regarding the LI System itself, I have rarely seen people complain about not getting a perfect LI. It's more along the lines of the fact that they can't even get a very good LI, let alone a perfect one. I believe the OP mentioned a desire for 3 legacies. That is not too much to ask for in my opinion.

More to the point, since LIs were introduced, my 3 toons have literally gone through thousands of LIs to settle for what they use today. None have a very good LI, and only one even uses a Second Age LI. This type of random, throw away garbage is not very Legendary, and that's a real problem when you are dealing with Legendary Items.

Some of us play this game to compete at a high level, in endgame environments like Raids and PvMP. In those environments, having the best gear and stats matters. A very good LI is not only essential to performing effectively in those scenarios, but required to even compete with any sustained level of success.

Yes, the casual player who only crafts, skirmishes, and infinitely runs repeatables doesn't need a quality LI. The majority of PvE content is so dumbed down and facile in this game that this certainly is true. But many players don't play this way, and I'm willing to bet that even the staunchest die-hard carebear doesn't really want a lackluster LI.

Since an RK is my main, I swore off even trying to make an attempt for a Second Age during SoM (our legacy pools are a hybrid cesspool of fail). However, with F2P launch and the broader access to Symbols, I went ahead and decided to try for a Second Age. Keep in mind that I don't want a perfect LI. All I really want is one LI with a minimum combination of two legacies. One is a Pool A leg (Fury of Storm Dmg) and one is a Pool B leg (Fury of Storm Crit). I am currently on Fail Stone X (yes, I name them all Fail Stone now and give them a roman numeral title VIII, IX, X to keep track). My disdain for the system is reaching new heights by the day as it pushes me to progressively deeper levels of disappointment and frustration.

Just horrible, and now they are extending access of the LI System to the F2P crowd in the next update. LOL! The LI grind is the one element of this game that I truly despise. I wonder how many F2Pers are just going to start dabbling in the system, and then after a month, just say EFF it.

Originally Posted by Urco

While that would be better than what we have now, it still wouldn't be a 'good' system in my opinion. For example, my Champ doesn't use a lot of AoE when solo, so the only way to grind an AoE weapon would be through group work or using inefficient skill rotations when solo (Or my Mini doesn't do much healing solo, or my Warden focuses on DPS solo, etc). Since most of this game is solo now (sadly), and there are lots of classes whose solo play is vastly different than their group play, it would either stunt their group LI growth or force them to solo as if they were in a group. Both of which are better than the current luck based system, but still not great options.
If, however, you added on the skirmish soldier trait system idea I've seen several people mention over the past few months, then I fully agree. Your skill usage and trait set up should help form your LI. -- The skirmish solider idea is making a framework like the skirmish solider traits (or our own traits) where you can slot different legacies and bonuses and appearances to fully customize your LI, and then grind them up by killing things or using specific skills.

+1 Rep

Ya, I had also suggested the skirmish trait system in another thread as well (probably not the first to do so though).

This is another idea I like... it could also allow for customization of the way the weapon looks.

Overall, the issue is: Legendary Items don't feel Legendary.

1. If you chew through them like candy they aren't that epic.
2. Turbine had marketed them as being something that "grow with your character". THEY DON'T.
3. People are sick of the only means of customization being to ID a whole bunch of them and hope for the best (lottery).

***So, I really like the skirmish panel type idea also. It seems like there is a lot of support for that. Now if only Turbine would chime in on the matter....

Originally Posted by Sneezer

***So, I really like the skirmish panel type idea also. It seems like there is a lot of support for that. Now if only Turbine would chime in on the matter....

It is by far the best idea I've seen posted. I think they really hit the nail on the head with the skirmish panel system. It's a versatile system that provides lots of user flexibility and customization while still being a rigid framework they can control, it could be used for so many things.

I support any ideas that brings some reason to this luck-based system, which absolutely does not reward people for the effort they made.

During pre-F2P I had 6 symbols to craft me a bow, half of them end up deconstructed and the second on AH because the initial ID was so bad that putting only 10k exp rune on it would be waste.

Now we have F2P first week in EU. I really had bad luck getting symbols, since I got only 6 during a year of SoM. I actually like the change, because now the effort I put in doing scaled instances challenge modes gives me reward I want. Anyway, week passed and I with help of friends and kinmates got five 2nd age bows. Needless to say, 2 of them are on AH and 4 deconstructed.

All I want is both crit multipliers+barbed arrow bleed. 11 symbols wasted without a sign of getting them.

Next time I craft 2nd age bow will be after announced LI system changes, I don't care when, but I give up on this lottery.

When I completed the initial LI quest & got my weapon ID'd, I nearly leaped for joy -- it had four of the legacies all the "cool kid" minstrels look for: Piercing Cry damage buff, Call Of Orome' damage buff, Soliloquiy of Spirit pulse buff, & -cooldown on Triumphant Spirit.

What bothers me is the thought that sooner or later, between now & level 60, I'll "need" to replace it, & then have to go through the entire grind all over again. I realize I can de-con the weapon & get more points & all that but that still doesn't mean my 2nd Age weapon is going to have those same legacies on it ... or will it? I don't know, & it's the not knowing that bugs me.

I expected a legendary weapon that actually leveled with me -- not a grind, ala' Anarchy Online, where every level I'm looking to maybe get a slightly higher level LI in the hopes it will be at least as good as my current one, with no actual guarantee of that.

Beyond that, I think that acquiring legendary items is entirely too easy, even if improving them becomes a silly grind.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the chances of your next LI having the same legacies are miniscule. The starter quest LI's usually ID with great tiers too. You'll never see that again. (unless the revamp changes things)

99.9% of items you ID after the starter quest ID are lame.

I guess this is where not knowing anything about a system is a good thing and I am pretty glad that I don't know all these details so I can just enjoy having a weapon like these.

Originally Posted by Sneezer

1. If you chew through them like candy they aren't that epic.

This is my main problem with the entire system. These items don't feel epic at all. They aren't personal. They certainly aren't rare. There is simply nothing to them.

Originally Posted by Sneezer

2. Turbine had marketed them as being something that "grow with your character". THEY DON'T.

Exactly. But do you know what does 'grow with your character'? Your skirmish soldier!

In my opinion, the skirmish soldier system would work perfectly for forging unique, incredibly personal items that reward hard work with truly legendary results.

The system would function almost exactly as it does now for the skirmish soldier. It could allow you to modify the cosmetics/type of the item, mix and match the legacies, and even swap gems/settings. The same 'hard work' time sink of grinding each piece individually would work almost exactly the same - Maybe you'd accumulate item experience as opposed to skirmish marks to distribute as you see fit?

It completely eliminates the soul-crushing randomness of the current cycle. Honestly, are there any serious drawbacks to a system like this for legendary items?

Originally Posted by dynamicduo

It completely eliminates the soul-crushing randomness of the current cycle. Honestly, are there any serious drawbacks to a system like this for legendary items?

No drawbacks from a player perspective. It's what most of us want. However, the system is designed as a hamster-wheel to keep end-gamers busy with something while Turbine releases no new content. If you have the ability to create and spec the LI as you choose, the grind is pretty much gone. Unfortunately, Turbine wants us to grind. They need a timesink, and soul crushing LI's are it.

I can't see us getting that much control - the only quote I've seen regarding the changes so far is "Reducing" the randomness.... How I wish that quote was more to the tune of "Eliminating" it. Hopefully they come up with something good. I think, for some players, this is Turbine's last chance.

Originally Posted by Bagginses2007

No drawbacks from a player perspective. It's what most of us want. However, the system is designed as a hamster-wheel to keep end-gamers busy with something while Turbine releases no new content. If you have the ability to create and spec the LI as you choose, the grind is pretty much gone. Unfortunately, Turbine wants us to grind. They need a timesink, and soul crushing LI's are it.

I can't see us getting that much control - the only quote I've seen regarding the changes so far is "Reducing" the randomness.... How I wish that quote was more to the tune of "Eliminating" it. Hopefully they come up with something good. I think, for some players, this is Turbine's last chance.

Yea the reducing comment worries me as well. If turbine have not got the message that the lottery on these items is a serious issue for players then they never will. And if they tie these changes in any way to the store it would be another sad day

22 Symbols, 110 legendary fragements, 22 flakes, + all the mats needed to create the LI - all wasted for useless junk.

I have personally had it with the LI system and will not make one single LI 2AG lvl65 or 1AG lvl65 until this BUGGED system has been changed. Grats to all who have gotten the perfect LI - and Grats to all those thousands others who are still mindlessly grinding to get that one LI that is usefull!!

In one Word - or emote: /BAH

Originally Posted by Harlekin2005

22 Symbols, 110 legendary fragements, 22 flakes, + all the mats needed to create the LI - all wasted for useless junk.

I have personally had it with the LI system and will not make one single LI 2AG lvl65 or 1AG lvl65 until this BUGGED system has been changed. Grats to all who have gotten the perfect LI - and Grats to all those thousands others who are still mindlessly grinding to get that one LI that is usefull!!

In one Word - or emote: /BAH

My sentiments exactly, though not quite so much invested.

All over the 9 months before the free-to-play launch (I'm personally boycotting the school/library/gb farm grind)

14 symbols (gave one away to a friend), 65 legendary fragments, 13 flakes + all the crafting materials, and every single one has been complete junk. Literally, not a single one has been usable because of how terrible the legacies have been.

The LI system needs to be revamped, or removed entirely, and it needs to happen ASAP, it can't wait until Isengard is launched next fall.

In the meantime, yeah, I'm also done with the LI system until something changes, and if the changes don't come fast enough, well, Guild Wars 2 looks interesting, =)

Originally Posted by Overtone

Some of us play this game to compete at a high level, in endgame environments like Raids and PvMP. In those environments, having the best gear and stats matters. A very good LI is not only essential to performing effectively in those scenarios, but required to even compete with any sustained level of success.

Let me emphasize that overall I disagree with bastiat1 whose basic stance seems to be "what are you all fussing about?" and agree with those who are profoundly dissatisfied with current system. I too am sick of 90% of my time online basically being a grind in order to obtain best(?) gear and/or improve the legendaries I already have.

I think the above paragraph merits some discussion. Recently had an exchange on another thread with someone who argued that most of us are too obsessed with having the perfect legendary items. That more important is playing skill - how well we play our class/toon in raids and instances. That you can take 12 people with sub-optimal gear and traits into Barad Guldur and beat every stage hard mode if you know what to do and do it well.

I half agreed. Perhaps playing well more than makes up for "bad" legendary items. Perhaps a player with perfect(?) gear and legendaries can play badly and contribute far less than someone with weak gear and legendaries who plays well.

I did push back a bit with two arguments:

1. The "multiplier effect". If my toon's legendary items help me contribute an extra 10-15% damage/healing/whatever... and so does the next person's... and the next... and the next... well then 1.1 ^ 6 = 1.77 = an extra 77% damage/healing/whatever which is nothing to sneeze at and that's a low estimate.

2. Surely some legacies make a huge difference that is more than an extra 10-15%. Rallying Cry cooldown? Shucks that can turn a Captain into a healing machine with 3-6 times the group healing power depending on other gear. Addle or Stamp cooldown can mean the difference between locking down Gorothul or getting kicked around.

But perhaps this person in that other thread still had a valid point. Do we obsess too much with getting the perfect legendary item with the perfect set of legacies? Is there a point at which a good-enough legendary item in the hands of an excellent player will mean more "sustained level of success" than a perfect legendary item in the hands of a mediocre player?

Originally Posted by DarthKeryx

But perhaps this person in that other thread still had a valid point. Do we obsess too much with getting the perfect legendary item with the perfect set of legacies? Is there a point at which a good-enough legendary item in the hands of an excellent player will mean more "sustained level of success" than a perfect legendary item in the hands of a mediocre player?

I don't think it is all about "getting the perfect LI".

I think the issue is that the system is not fun for most, it is not engaging. The current legendary item system falls flat of its promise of a legendary item that "levels with your character".

They don't level with your character, you level them for a while then decon them in pursuit of a better one. With the current system, LIs aren't "legendary" at all, they are just commodity grind trash. They aren't interesting or fun.

Using the skirmish trait system that has been suggested for LIs essentially fixes both of the major issues; the lottery and them not leveling with your toon (thus not being legendary). There are a lot of ways that they can make each LI unique, yet customizable while leveling with your toon.

Also, if Turbine is worried about having something for capped toons to grind out, the skirmish style trait system is better. Just look at how much time it takes to grind out a maxed soldier, now multiply that by several Legendary Items. That system would be guaranteed to keep players busy for a very long time.

The only issue falls in relics as currently the main source for them is deconning hundreds of LIs.

The simple solution to the relic issue is to make the main source of relics mob drops, instances, quest rewards, barter, and crafting. Because having to grind out hundreds of LIs to get relics really is contrary to the promise of a "legendary item" when you are essentially treating them as decon trash.

Originally Posted by Sneezer

I don't think it is all about "getting the perfect LI".

I think the issue is that the system is not fun for most, it is not engaging. The current legendary item system falls flat of its promise of a legendary item that "levels with your character".

Excellent reply. Also like your comment about what would be a better system - a suggestion I have seen elsewhere.

My only "concern" (not disagreement) would be how would such a radical change to LI system affect in-game economy? Selling LIs I don't need or want is one source of steady income.

(Counterargument - and what happened when they introduced the crafting guild system? No more selling crit one-shot t5 gear for 3-5g a pop!)

So, Aragorn walks up to elven-smiths in Rivendell and asks them to reforge Narsil, the Blade that was Broken...

...a few weeks later he walks back and collects Andúril, the Flame of the West.

As he stands marvelling at it's beauty the elven-smith tells him "Well, we had a bit of problem with random Legacies...it now does less damage than Sting, but on the upside it does have some excellent +Healing Output legacies on it..."

Aragorn plunges Andúril into the elven-smith and retires to his country estates thus ending the Fellowship.

Randomness has its place in some areas, but it has no place in the serious end of the game. Ruining a considerable amount of player time and effort under the guise of "making it interesting" is simply not on.

Originally Posted by Bryzinkta

So, Aragorn walks up to elven-smiths in Rivendell and asks them to reforge Narsil, the Blade that was Broken...

...a few weeks later he walks back and collects Andúril, the Flame of the West.

As he stands marvelling at it's beauty the elven-smith tells him "Well, we had a bit of problem with random Legacies...it now does less damage than Sting, but on the upside it does have some excellent +Healing Output legacies on it..."

Aragorn plunges Andúril into the elven-smith and retires to his country estates thus ending the Fellowship.

Randomness has its place in some areas, but it has no place in the serious end of the game. Ruining a considerable amount of player time and effort under the guise of "making it interesting" is simply not on.

Heheh, well said! Or would we expect to find Gandalf's study (if he had a permanent home) littered with 30+ staffs, all identical in appearance, but none of them with the right magical properties?

Here's an interesting thought... what if LI's had deeds? Want your legendary weapon to do more damage with blade-storm? Well then you need to use blade-storm *with that weapon* 1000 times, to earn that deed/legacy. Or perhaps you would quest for specific items to create a scroll for that legacy (kill a raid boss that uses a blade-stormish skill, get his sword, plus 2 other hard to find things). Make the work MEANINGFUL instead of just grind, rollthedice, grind, rollthedice, grindgrindfacemeltinggrind.

Here's a thought.
LIs are rare drops, and you can use them at any level.
They will level with you in a way, and only the LI you are fighting with gains experience.
I like the idea that they have deeds. So, if you kill so many orcs with that particular weapon, you may get an Orc Slayer I deed. The higher the deed, the more ffective it is against that particular monster type (like sting glowing in the presense of orcs)
A high enough deed can cause a chance of fear among that type of foe during a fight.

Also, LIs are not class specific. Anyone that can wield a dagger can use the legendary dagger they found.

LIs have no level cap, however, the further the LI is above you in level, the XP curve is exponential, so a level capped player can continue to grind to 4 or 5 or so levels above player level, but since the curve is exponential, it becomes prohibitively expensive to level too many levels beyond your own. Once the level cap raises, and the player gains levels, it becomes easier to level the weapon until...well you get the picture.

Since they are not class specific, they gain generic buffs for both players, and synergistic buffs when multiple players with LIs are members of the same fellowship.

Buffs could include:
+x to all or a particular stat
+x to melee/ranged/tactical damage (depending on weapon type)
+x to healing
+x to bleed
+x to debuff or mez
+x damage to particular mob type
chance to fear or cause cowering in certain mob types if deed for that mob type is high enough.

This way the weapon almost tailors itself to the way you play. If your a burg and get a dagger and bleed and mez alot, the weapon will start to make you better at that. If your a RK and get an item and heal alot with it, then it will start to get good at that type of activity.
There should be some type of limit (maybe like the skirmish soldier system others have mentioned).



The more and higher level of LIs in a fellowship, the more effective they all become (think Gandalf with Glamdring, and Frodo with Sting fighting the same monsters)
I realize its a drastic departure from the current system, but the addition of a tiered deed system would allow weapons to grow and evolve over time and never need deconning and can scale with the player.
Just some thougths...may be horrible..may be not very well formed...so take with a grain of salt.

Originally Posted by DarthKeryx

1. The "multiplier effect". If my toon's legendary items help me contribute an extra 10-15% damage/healing/whatever... and so does the next person's... and the next... and the next... well then 1.1 ^ 6 = 1.77 = an extra 77% damage/healing/whatever which is nothing to sneeze at and that's a low estimate.

If 6 people all to 10% more dps, the dps of the group goes up by only 10%. If they are all contributing equally, then raising the dps of one person by 10% only raises the dps of the group by 10%/6 = 1.67%.

But 10% can still have a huge effect. Take the watcher fight (on level) for example. You have to kill one tentacle every minute on average. If it takes you the full minute to kill the tentacle, then the fight takes a really long time because the only person killing the head is the tank. In that time you have plenty of chances for something to go wrong, and any little thing that does go wrong will cause the watcher to heal, and you will be starting from scratch even if you don't wipe. Now add 10% more dps, and every cycle you have a little bit of time for everyone to dps the head, or catch up when someone makes a mistake. It's "only" 10%, but it makes a giant difference.

Turtle, Gorothul, Giant Fumeroles and Blind One in DN, Hard Mode Dungeons, Hard Mode SH, etc. They all have mechanisms that make a little extra dps help a lot.

Originally Posted by ShammWoww

Here's a thought.
LIs are rare drops, and you can use them at any level.
They will level with you in a way, and only the LI you are fighting with gains experience.
I like the idea that they have deeds. So, if you kill so many orcs with that particular weapon, you may get an Orc Slayer I deed. The higher the deed, the more ffective it is against that particular monster type (like sting glowing in the presense of orcs)
A high enough deed can cause a chance of fear among that type of foe during a fight.

Also, LIs are not class specific. Anyone that can wield a dagger can use the legendary dagger they found.

LIs have no level cap, however, the further the LI is above you in level, the XP curve is exponential, so a level capped player can continue to grind to 4 or 5 or so levels above player level, but since the curve is exponential, it becomes prohibitively expensive to level too many levels beyond your own. Once the level cap raises, and the player gains levels, it becomes easier to level the weapon until...well you get the picture.

Since they are not class specific, they gain generic buffs for both players, and synergistic buffs when multiple players with LIs are members of the same fellowship.

Buffs could include:
+x to all or a particular stat
+x to melee/ranged/tactical damage (depending on weapon type)
+x to healing
+x to bleed
+x to debuff or mez
+x damage to particular mob type
chance to fear or cause cowering in certain mob types if deed for that mob type is high enough.

This way the weapon almost tailors itself to the way you play. If your a burg and get a dagger and bleed and mez alot, the weapon will start to make you better at that. If your a RK and get an item and heal alot with it, then it will start to get good at that type of activity.

^^ You should be employed by Turbine!

DPS ratings etc on an exponential scale seems like an excellent idea. The casuals can hit 90% efficiency with some effort, the ginders can keep going and be "the best".

I do hope Turbine does something DRASTIC to the LI system, because I simply wont be bothering with again. I hit the LI wall with a *THUD* recently and im done.

Originally Posted by Amrumir

It's especially bad for a Rune-Keeper, since we have the added wrinkle of choosing Lightning, Fire, or Frost stones.

I've deconned many stones because I'd get Lightning with a Fire legacy, or Frost with a Lightning legacy.

Ugh.

same happens to me, i get everything i dont want......

this system is horrible, i hate it period...

Originally Posted by DarthKeryx

Excellent reply. Also like your comment about what would be a better system - a suggestion I have seen elsewhere.

My only "concern" (not disagreement) would be how would such a radical change to LI system affect in-game economy? Selling LIs I don't need or want is one source of steady income.

(Counterargument - and what happened when they introduced the crafting guild system? No more selling crit one-shot t5 gear for 3-5g a pop!)

That is a good concern.

I think the solution would be to have items that are sellable/tradable that "improve" the LI rather than the LI's themselves (which would be more of meta item than a drop).

Types of things that could be traded or sold:

• If the LI system got a "cosmetic" line like the soldiers do, different cosmetic upgrades could be crafted or found on mobs and traded/sold. This could include things like different glow effects, hilts, handles, blades, staff heads, etc. This would allow a lot of "diversity" to the way the Legendary weapons look, as well as create an "economy" market around them.
• More diversity in crafted relics. This would give crafters more items to sell.
• Items attainable through quests which are required to obtain certain "traits" for the item. Ex, you want a threat up trait for warden weapon, you need to have a certain quest item to unlock the trait (which you then level normally after). This would in essence be like selling Symbols.

Just throwing out a few ideas on how the economy could still have some action in regards to a Legendary Item system that didn't revolve around a gamble and decon cycle.

Obviously, the LI Lottery is not sick of me. There it was, the light at the end of the tunnel, for one of my characters. I spy the perfect weapon for my Burg on AH. I sat and looked at it longingly for a minute and then thought, buy it now, before someone snatches it away! At Lv20 reforge, I notice with horror that one of the legacies has changed. It's not the legacy it was. Out of nowhere, just changed.

The reforges went splendidly. I now have the perfect weapon, except for the missing legacy that was replaced with a useless one, by some glitch in the system. And there it sits, no longer being leveled, because I cannot bear to play my Burg after that. I feel I had the rug pulled out from under me. I feel I can trust nothing in this game again. If things can just change out of the blue, through no fault of mine, and I am left with no recourse, well, I have to wonder if I even want to be a part of such a game world. It still feels like a bad dream that I can't wake up from, and it's been a week since it happened.

I am still working through my shock and disappointment, before I make any decisions about continuing with the game. I did submit a ticket. I did finally figure out how to get the bug report form up and filed a bug report. Next I will be contacting customer support, and I guess I will take it from there.

I have hated the LI system since it was introduced. The more time that passed, futile band-aids applied, and de-cons done, the more my hatred for it deepened. It's really a game breaker as far as I'm concerned. And it's such a shame, because done right, it could have been a brilliant, compelling part of this game. The LI system does not need changing or tweaking or overhauling- it needs to be scrapped entirely and a new system put in place- one that lives up to the initial hype. I know Turbine can do it. It's just a matter of will they do it?

I think if the legacies were not random, it is a fine system, ie we can put the points how we play, they can still allow upgrades to legacies to allow more levels... great IMO. But they didn't allow us our choices, play the random game they said...and people don't like it, we said that the first time and the muppets made the same again V2.0, arguably worse. Totally unimpressed. Just like it's rediculous people are still playing the watcher instance for jewellery because a Nazgul has nothing other than rubbish to offer, in the ICE paper based game Mirkwood was the loot heaven.

All this has been pointed out before of course, but Turbine needed to manufacture a way of making cash, I fully expect legacy upgrades for sale at the Toilet Paper store....but don't worry, they will be available through drops at an instance near you. For shame.

*no I'm not anti the store (per se), but I am unimpressed at how it's been used so far. Go ahead and push harder Turbine!

I agree 100% with this post. I'm down 12 reforged greatswords (champ) and every single one was 5-7, nothing but, cooldown legacies. Sure, symbols are easy enough to acquire, however, the recipe is on a seven day cooldown, and legendary fragments aren't exactly flowing through the streets. The random chance pool A pool B nonsense is ridiculous, for any class, all of my toons have gone through more LI's than I can count on both hands because of undesireable legacies. The pools need to be re-evaluated or the system should be entirely thrown out and revamped to the point we can customize our own weapons the way we like. Sure, this leaves room for cookie-cutter weapons, but it would honestly make gameplay a lot better.
Don't get me wrong, I have great second ages on all my level 65's now, but the journey to reach that point was ridiculous and not a fun one.


P.S I've actually canceled my subscription because of the lack of content, both frequency in updates, and the work that obviously (did not) go into it.
Legendary item system is just one more screw-up on Turbine's part.

It was real (virtually), it was fun, but it wasn't real fun

After grinding shards and waiting for cooldowns, I've now crafted 4 reforged 2nd Age runestones and finally got one with +Will (rather than the +Agility on the others); now, if only the legacies were worthwhile; instead, I got Healing power cost reduction and Fire Skill damage on the same stone... :'( I would have preferred either a healing OR a battle stone, but not both in one.

I await the promised changes to the legendary system. Hopefully, it becomes better, not worse. While I would think it can't get worse, games have done that in the past, so my fingers are crossed.

Originally Posted by shaz14

If 6 people all to 10% more dps, the dps of the group goes up by only 10%. If they are all contributing equally, then raising the dps of one person by 10% only raises the dps of the group by 10%/6 = 1.67%.

Ah I see your point which is a good one. Let me elaborate just a bit with an example:

Captain adds +10% damage to target with Telling Mark legacy.
Minstrel adds +20% with Ballad of War legacy.
Burglar adds +8% damage to target with Reveal Weakness(?)

DPS * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.08 = 1.4256 in other words 42.6% increase in damage to target for whole group.

Captain puts Shield Brother on Champ and uses To Arms
Champion in question has weapon with +15% damage legacies

DPS for Champion * 1.4256 (as member of group) * 1.25 (To Arms) * 1.15 = 2.0492 in other words the Champ doubles his/her base damage output while To Arms is up (which can be 1/2 the time with maxed legacy)

You're entirely correct - some bonuses merely add. But some multiply. If each member of a fellowship increases group effectiveness (damage, heals, whatever) by 10% you get a net 163% increase - 2.63 times base effectiveness.

Back to original topic - I'm sick and tired of trying to get the perfect legendary. Every single level 65 Second Age item I have made has been either good or yucky. None have been perfect - by which I mean "as good as I could ask for given the maximum number of legacies you can squeeze onto one legendary (and the maximum points you could spend on those legacies)". I've seen some perfect legendary items - totally droolworthy Captain's Greatswords or Badges - but haven't been lucky enough to get one.

But most of my toons have legendaries that are "good enough" to get the job done.

What a bag of whiners.

How ridiculous it would be if you could pretty much get your ideal legendary off the bat. Its not like awesome relics of the 1st and 2nd age are easy to come by. Legendary Items are one of the few gear items that varies wildly from player to player due to that randomness. I am excited to see radiance be ditched too so you will see people using a variety armors too.

In my opinion, equipped legendary items should even drain power or perhaps even morale - so that using very powerful magical items long can be a major drain - as in Tolkien lore.

This would perhaps lead to people opting to equip crafted non-legendary items in many circumstances.