Thread: Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

why?

#1 you dont really know if your spell/skill rotation is right for max dps or healing because you dont know what your doing overall

#2 lets just guess how much threat were doing

#3 your in a raid, 8 people are awesome, a few are not awesome and you cant down a boss, those few awful people are dragging everyone else down and you have no idea thats what the problem is

thats just a few reasons.. Ive heard what most people that play this game say, like "we dont want to be wow" "were not concerned with min/max etc"

it sounds more like you want a communistic atmosphere where everyone is equal and there is no pressure for everyone to give 100% for the better of the group. in wow there are alot of immature players that boast about #1 dps but the fact is, WoW is a finly oiled raid atmosphere, there are no guilds that are competitve in end game content without addons.

enrage timers, spawn timers etc will put one in your back door unless you know everyone is pulling their weight.. yes there is more to gameplay than dps or hps dps and hps is a huge part of gameplay.. without a dps meter its like guessing how fast your going in your car with no way to tell.. sure my weapon adds 10 dps over my other one but how much was I doing with my old one versus my new one.

before fanboys everywhere jump on this post like new meat no im not a free player and im not trying to start a huge war, im just saying if you never want to be critisized about how you play then you shouldnt play in groups or you shouldnt play a mmo that has any kind of group cooperation content..

If you suck at baseball, sit on the couch watching tv all the time drink beer and weigh 400 lbs your not gonna get to play in the world series with the twins.. thats just how it is and thats why guild on wow are like they are, they want to win because its a game. if lotro puts more end game content in and makes it worth raiding maybe they wouldnt have to go free to play to keep people.(and damage meters)

Originally Posted by Glasscannon

why?

#1 you dont really know if your spell/skill rotation is right for max dps or healing because you dont know what your doing overall

#2 lets just guess how much threat were doing

#3 your in a raid, 8 people are awesome, a few are not awesome and you cant down a boss, those few awful people are dragging everyone else down and you have no idea thats what the problem is

thats just a few reasons.. Ive heard what most people that play this game say, like "we dont want to be wow" "were not concerned with min/max etc"

it sounds more like you want a communistic atmosphere where everyone is equal and there is no pressure for everyone to give 100% for the better of the group. in wow there are alot of immature players that boast about #1 dps but the fact is, WoW is a finly oiled raid atmosphere, there are no guilds that are competitve in end game content without addons.

enrage timers, spawn timers etc will put one in your back door unless you know everyone is pulling their weight.. yes there is more to gameplay than dps or hps dps and hps is a huge part of gameplay.. without a dps meter its like guessing how fast your going in your car with no way to tell.. sure my weapon adds 10 dps over my other one but how much was I doing with my old one versus my new one.

before fanboys everywhere jump on this post like new meat no im not a free player and im not trying to start a huge war, im just saying if you never want to be critisized about how you play then you shouldnt play in groups or you shouldnt play a mmo that has any kind of group cooperation content..

If you suck at baseball, sit on the couch watching tv all the time drink beer and weigh 400 lbs your not gonna get to play in the world series with the twins.. thats just how it is and thats why guild on wow are like they are, they want to win because its a game. if lotro puts more end game content in and makes it worth raiding maybe they wouldnt have to go free to play to keep people.(and damage meters)

1) LOTRO isn't F2P now because the game was dying, it's because Turbine can now make more money from a game which was already acceptably healthy, at least by all public knowledge. Also, it streamlines billing and other systems.

2) You assume people in disagreement with your ideas are "fanboys". I dislike Turbine in many ways more than the average player, but I still find fault with your argument.

3) LOTRO doesn't "need" DPS meters and diagnostic addons. Some players want them, others don't. But every fight in the game has been successfully completed by at least one more more groups, therefore nothing is broken which needs fixing and the entirety of LOTRO content is not so EZ mode that every raid group in the game has every boss on farm status.

4) Every group is going to be different, from gear to traits to skill level and experience. You know how you know if you're generating the right amount of threat? If your tank has aggro on all the appropriate enemies.

5) A discussion about meters is reasonable, but not when it starts with the tone you chose for your post. Insults are not warranted.

6) "my weapon adds 10 dps over my other one but how much was I doing with my old one versus my new one." Assuming that you're taking about the same two weapons in both parts of that question, then your answer is: 10 DPS more.

LotRO does not need dps meters and other diagnostic addons. You and others may want them but they are not needed. Some of us actually play this game for fun and not for work. This is not an Auto Repair Shop here where diagnostic tools are part of the job.

Originally Posted by Glasscannon

Lotro needs a dps meter and other diagnostic addons

No. It don't.

Originally Posted by Glasscannon

in wow there are alot of immature players that boast about #1 dps but the fact is, WoW is a finly oiled raid atmosphere, there are no guilds that are competitve in end game content without addons.

Summary:
If you want to play an end-game raiding MMO, go play WoW.
If you want to play an MMO concerned more with story and lore, play LotRO.

PRO TIP: Use the search function before posting Yet Another Thread on the topic.

Yet another topic on this matter
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-Lua-Scripting
All pros and cons are explained there, not need for new topic.
It also references some older and bigger discussions with even more heated debates.

Originally Posted by Trilwych

Summary:
If you want to play an end-game raiding MMO, go play WoW.
If you want to play an MMO concerned more with story and lore, play LotRO.

PRO TIP: Use the search function before posting Yet Another Thread on the topic.

QFT.

One of the last things we need is for LOTRO to be more like WoW. Another one of the last things we need are people starting off "discussions" with the "if you disagree with me you're a fanboy" fallacy.

No.

What lead to the growth and downfall of WoW? Well, first off, when you factor in DPS meters you start to single out classes so you either 1.) switch classes or 2.) get into a balancing war. Then you'll start only picking the most OP classes for raids (which really doesn't matter in this game as it stands as you need balance).

Also, you get into elitism... LOTRO is pretty darn free of that... yes there are a few people who try to epeen, but when your epic sword looks just about as cool as a regular sword... how much can you really flex? Kinships on this game have lasted since the BETA. Name some of the WoW guilds that can survive that long with people always vying for supremacy, and once they reach the top of their current guild, shopping for the next greatest deal.

I'm glad I can go do an instance or raid without having to hear people complaining about new recruits dps under 10k single target.

A few years ago, I was like everyone else "woohoo, I'm #1 on dps", but really... it gets old and then you grow up. You're playing a game to have fun... yes I was the first person in my guild with a trigger happy finger to boot bad recruits, but you don't need a meter to watch them targeting the wrong mobs, casting the wrong spells, or not buffing correctly.

Now, before I hear someone say something smug trying to sound cool... I played 4.5 years in the highest level of competition raiding progression (when that term actually meant something). Personally, I sank god awful hours in both leading multiple 25 mans and min/maxing since competition was that heated. Server firsts came at a high cost and honestly began to mean less when the game required more effort than my own day to day job.

If you want this sort of "tool", then you've only really got one choice right now... good luck with that... they really need more cash before they run out of ideas. You should really also ask yourself why you even care about dps meters in the first place. Are you wanting them to make yourself feel better that you're doing more than others? Cause I hate to say if you've made it to the end game content... you wouldn't even be posting this post. My two cents.

No. We don't need a DPS meter or any other diagnostics. The beauty of LotRO is that we don't have those things, and this game is focused more on story, lore, and a more relaxed atmosphere rather than being uber-leet or pumping out XXXX DPS. There are plenty of other games available for that sort of meta-gaming.

The exact reason why I (and many, MANY others) play this game instead of WoW is because it doesn't have DPS meters. If they add those in, they'll lose many of their loyal customers.

If Turbine understands their playerbase, they'll keep that stuff out of LotRO.

I don't want my information broadcast to others.

Originally Posted by Marvellous

What lead to the growth and downfall of WoW?

LOL!!

downfall of WoW? When did this happen? I am not a big WoW fan, but I sure hope Blizzard can recover.

No. We are not WoW. If you want that then go back to WoW.

LOTRO has had a personal dps meter since around 2008.
lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/CStats

If you want to improve your own rotation or whatever, great. Have at it.

If you want to know what OTHER people are doing, that's not your concern, really. Seriously. If you're in a kin and don't like how someone is doing in the raid, discuss it. If you're in a PUG, and don't like how the group is doing, LEAVE.

This game is not about min/maxing. If you feel the need, great, enjoy. Don't shove it down other people's throats. All that will happen is you'll get frustrated, and eventually you'll leave anyway. So save us all the hassle now. This game isn't about getting to the world series (HORRIBLE comparison, btw). It's about having some relaxing fun with friends. If you can't get over this simple fact, go back to WoW.

"#3 your in a raid, 8 people are awesome, a few are not awesome and you cant down a boss, those few awful people are dragging everyone else down and you have no idea thats what the problem is"

This is exactly why we don't need a DPS meter etc. Lotro is an inclusive game, not exclusive.

I don't want to be kicked out of a group because someone looks at my numbers and thinks I am not "awesome".

I disagree with the use of the word 'need' but your conclusions are more or less correct.

The single largest problem LOTRO suffers from is mediocore players. Not all of this is the players fault. There is a significant lack of information amongst the players and how they interact with the world. Things like meters and diagnostic tools would help considerably with this.

If you don't think this is the case, just compare kin and PUG runs. Do people in kinships possess such superior coordination, are more skilled at pressing buttons than PUGs? There is a coordination difference, but if everyone knows their class, much content should be easily doable. But it's not. I can't tell you how many bad PUGs I've been in since F2P launch. I explained the entire strategy to them, they all understood, but they still managed to fail miserably.

Enough is enough.

If Turbine will not make a concerted effort to improve their own players, then we, the community, need to do it ourselves. Being all positive and saying 'it's ok, it's just a game' will only lead to the mediocrity and frustration of PUGs.

Let's make PUGs fun again. Bring on the tools.

Uh, no. This game does not NEED these garbage tools. If you want a diagnostic addons, dps meters so you can show everyone how leet you are and swing your epeen by posting your stats in chat, then go back to WoW. Please don't try to ruin a very fun, enjoyable game with **** addons.

Originally Posted by Magian

Let's make PUGs fun again. Bring on the tools.

Double serving of irony with this as your closing statement.

Originally Posted by Glasscannon

thats just a few reasons.. Ive heard what most people that play this game say, like "we dont want to be wow" "were not concerned with min/max etc"

it sounds more like you want a communistic atmosphere where everyone is equal and there is no pressure for everyone to give 100% for the better of the group. in wow there are alot of immature players that boast about #1 dps but the fact is, WoW is a finly oiled raid atmosphere, there are no guilds that are competitve in end game content without addons.



before fanboys everywhere jump on this post like new meat no im not a free player and im not trying to start a huge war, im just saying if you never want to be critisized about how you play then you shouldnt play in groups or you shouldnt play a mmo that has any kind of group cooperation content..

If you suck at baseball, sit on the couch watching tv all the time drink beer and weigh 400 lbs your not gonna get to play in the world series with the twins.. thats just how it is and thats why guild on wow are like they are, they want to win because its a game. if lotro puts more end game content in and makes it worth raiding maybe they wouldnt have to go free to play to keep people.(and damage meters)

Thank god this game is not like WoW. I've been there, done that. WoW can take it's fine oiled raiding machine and take it where the sun doesn't shine. We've done ok for 3 years without any addons. We succeed without them and don't need them.

And one thing we do not need is the egotistical elitist attitude that comes with dps meters. I've been there too, and the lack of that is one major reason why I'm here instead of WoW. After 2 1/2 years there I had enough and left those guys.

We are not World of Warcraft. And thank God for that.

Originally Posted by Magian

I disagree with the use of the word 'need' but your conclusions are more or less correct.

The single largest problem LOTRO suffers from is mediocore players. Not all of this is the players fault. There is a significant lack of information amongst the players and how they interact with the world. Things like meters and diagnostic tools would help considerably with this.

If you don't think this is the case, just compare kin and PUG runs. Do people in kinships possess such superior coordination, are more skilled at pressing buttons than PUGs? There is a coordination difference, but if everyone knows their class, much content should be easily doable. But it's not. I can't tell you how many bad PUGs I've been in since F2P launch. I explained the entire strategy to them, they all understood, but they still managed to fail miserably.

Enough is enough.

If Turbine will not make a concerted effort to improve their own players, then we, the community, need to do it ourselves. Being all positive and saying 'it's ok, it's just a game' will only lead to the mediocrity and frustration of PUGs.

Let's make PUGs fun again. Bring on the tools.

I have an immeasurable amount of gratitude that I never have to play LOTRO with you. Your attitude about other players never changes, and it never ceases to cause me to vomit in my mouth just a little bit.

I will never use meters, I will never be in a kin that makes meters mandatory. Some of my most enjoyable and joyful moments in the game have come from learning how to excel at some of the classes I've played, and I've bonded with the other players who took the time to teach me, push me and encourage me. I have friendships and loyalties which exist outside the game now because of the time and trust I've invested. These are benefits which would not exist if my mentors were meters.

Magian, why don't you just leave everyone else the h*** alone? You have a kin, and I'd imagine that given your superiority complex that they must be a pretty decent group of players, so run content with them. When are you going to stop judging everyone else and trying to force your worldview and gameplay style on people who aren't interested in your brand of solutions?

As previously mentioned you can use cstats to analyze your personal details in great detail.

You can also use some of my software. LotroChatNarrator can read out real time personal stats over your headphones. Or LotroDPSEvil can display real time stats, and optionally let you set up a server so multiple people can see each others real time stats.

If you are going to grumble at least only ask for stuff we don't already have...

Seeing as we have completed raids for over three years without addons such as DPS meters, I fail to see why we need them now in LOTRO. There are technical limitations involved with attempting to get group DPS meters ingame... and no matter which way it is done, Turbine will not be receiving increased incoming revenue because of it. In fact, it will be the opposite: group DPS meters will not draw many other players to the game (if at all), and it costs money to get that functionality enabled (regardless of method)... and if done through the server query method, that will cause problems for everyone once those extra queries reach a critical mass (in other words, lag and increased load times).

Also, the kind of behavior group DPS meters encourage actually violates the Code of Conduct, as it is essentially griefing. That alone is enough of a reason to never add that functionality ingame, because Turbine would only be encouraging players to violate the Code of Conduct. That Code is there for a reason.

EDIT: Due to how the subject of DPS meters is so vitriolic here on the forums, that is a pretty good indicator of how they would be received. Not a good idea.

Originally Posted by Tilps

As previously mentioned you can use cstats to analyze your personal details in great detail.

You can also use some of my software. LotroChatNarrator can read out real time personal stats over your headphones. Or LotroDPSEvil can display real time stats, and optionally let you set up a server so multiple people can see each others real time stats.

If you are going to grumble at least only ask for stuff we don't already have...

qft...plus if I remember correctly, yuor software asks for permissions from others to read their data if they so choose, so it is a good option for those who wish to see theirs and others stats.

Originally Posted by ButrBiscut

I have an immeasurable amount of gratitude that I never have to play LOTRO with you. Your attitude about other players never changes, and it never ceases to cause me to vomit in my mouth just a little bit.

I will never use meters, I will never be in a kin that makes meters mandatory. Some of my most enjoyable and joyful moments in the game have come from learning how to excel at some of the classes I've played, and I've bonded with the other players who took the time to teach me, push me and encourage me. I have friendships and loyalties which exist outside the game now because of the time and trust I've invested. These are benefits which would not exist if my mentors were meters.

Magian, why don't you just leave everyone else the alone? You have a kin, and I'd imagine that given your superiority complex that they must be a pretty decent group of players, so run content with them. When are you going to stop judging everyone else and trying to force your worldview and gameplay style on people who aren't interested in your brand of solutions?

Superiority complex? No, I don't have one.

The problem that this community has - including you - is that every word I say (on these subjects) are immediately coloured with elitism. This is the furthest thing from what I'm saying.

Anyone who PUGs knows there is a major skill problem with these players. The main reason, I think, is because Turbine allows you to solo 1 through 65, and the lack of information available to the players. I do not hate on these individuals, but they stink. They throw themselves against content again and again, and wipe endlessly.

I want to help them!

I do not want meters so I can go in a pug and say "you all suck, look at my DPS compared to yours." I want them so players can say "oh I tried this, and it's only netting X DPS when a fellow DPSer is netting Y." Then I want them to change their rotation and say "look, that's an increase, so now I'm comparable to the other guy."

Teaching tools.

I PUG and so I'm concerned with the community's skill level. I want people who suck to unsuck so the game can progress forward.

But no, go ahead, call it elitism and I have a superiority complex. It's so much easier than addressing a real problem the game has.

Originally Posted by Glasscannon

why?

#1 you dont really know if your spell/skill rotation is right for max dps or healing because you dont know what your doing overall

#2 lets just guess how much threat were doing

#3 your in a raid, 8 people are awesome, a few are not awesome and you cant down a boss, those few awful people are dragging everyone else down and you have no idea thats what the problem is

thats just a few reasons.. Ive heard what most people that play this game say, like "we dont want to be wow" "were not concerned with min/max etc"

it sounds more like you want a communistic atmosphere where everyone is equal and there is no pressure for everyone to give 100% for the better of the group. in wow there are alot of immature players that boast about #1 dps but the fact is, WoW is a finly oiled raid atmosphere, there are no guilds that are competitve in end game content without addons.

enrage timers, spawn timers etc will put one in your back door unless you know everyone is pulling their weight.. yes there is more to gameplay than dps or hps dps and hps is a huge part of gameplay.. without a dps meter its like guessing how fast your going in your car with no way to tell.. sure my weapon adds 10 dps over my other one but how much was I doing with my old one versus my new one.

before fanboys everywhere jump on this post like new meat no im not a free player and im not trying to start a huge war, im just saying if you never want to be critisized about how you play then you shouldnt play in groups or you shouldnt play a mmo that has any kind of group cooperation content..

If you suck at baseball, sit on the couch watching tv all the time drink beer and weigh 400 lbs your not gonna get to play in the world series with the twins.. thats just how it is and thats why guild on wow are like they are, they want to win because its a game. if lotro puts more end game content in and makes it worth raiding maybe they wouldnt have to go free to play to keep people.(and damage meters)

No, absolutely all wrong. Hardcore/first time kill don't really use that kind of add on.
I have to know so well my char that dps lose any value. What really takes me in or out a raid is if I avoid damage and how I react vs a unexpected danger.
A DPS meter can take importance when you play a pug. However, are you really sure dps is the most vital thing? In my experience it's not.
It's more important how you play: position, judgement, reflex, order. In a sentence: you must know what to do and when you have to do. And you cannot create an add on for that.

Originally Posted by Magian

Superiority complex? No, I don't have one.

The problem that this community has - including you - is that every word I say (on these subjects) are immediately coloured with elitism. This is the furthest thing from what I'm saying.

Anyone who PUGs knows there is a major skill problem with these players. The main reason, I think, is because Turbine allows you to solo 1 through 65, and the lack of information available to the players. I do not hate on these individuals, but they stink. They throw themselves against content again and again, and wipe endlessly.

I want to help them!

I do not want meters so I can go in a pug and say "you all suck, look at my DPS compared to yours." I want them so players can say "oh I tried this, and it's only netting X DPS when a fellow DPSer is netting Y." Then I want them to change their rotation and say "look, that's an increase, so now I'm comparable to the other guy."

Teaching tools.

I PUG and so I'm concerned with the community's skill level. I want people who suck to unsuck so the game can progress forward.

But no, go ahead, call it elitism and I have a superiority complex. It's so much easier than addressing a real problem the game has.

Why are "skill problems" so important? Here in LOTRO, the important thing is to have fun. Some find it fun to simply be successful in crafting. Others find it fun to hang out with others in a social environment. There are those who find it fun to run challenging group content. Others find it fun to max out their characters in every aspect possible. There are still others who find it fun to raid in challenging content.

In other words, not everyone needs to be highly "skilled" to have fun. In fact, that group which may be throwing itself against some hard content again and again, and constantly wiping, may actually be having fun!

Not everyone wants others to give them advice on how to play better, and that usually only works out if said players ask for that advice. In rare cases, privately (and politely) asking them to change something in their skill rotation or other area may be warranted, but I cannot see any other reasonable alternative which works outside of the appropiate kinds of groups (min/maxers and dedicated raiders, for examples).

A group DPS meter throws that out the window entirely, and may not always fix the problem. In the right hands it may have the potential to do some good... but once added to the game, it will come into the hands of those who would rather use that in insolent ways, guaranteed. In such a situation it will do far more harm than it can good.

As mentioned by another person in this thread, there is currently a functioning, third-party, optional opt-in version of what the OP is asking for. That is more than enough.

Try being awesome in life and just have fun and relax in your games.

Everything is NOT a competition.

Your blood pressure will be a lot lower and you might just have a healthier outlook in life.

Originally Posted by Magian

The single largest problem LOTRO suffers from is mediocore players.

The single largest problem LOTRO has is with players trying to rank other players.

Mediocre players make this game great, and I have more fun grouping with them than I ever have grouping with highly skilled jerks. You succeed in a group with mediocre players, and they thank everyone for having a fun time. You succeed in a group with some elites and they'll complain about how they could have done better if it weren't for those holding them back.

Originally Posted by Kyrra_T

Try being awesome in life and just have fun and relax in your games.

Everything is NOT a competition.

Your blood pressure will be a lot lower and you might just have a healthier outlook in life.

This strawman gets be on to death around here when talking about meters.

Having tools for people who want them somehow equals not having fun.

For such a self proclaimed laid back and mature community there is a lack of tolerance to those who do express a positive opinion about meters.

I really hope that we have them sooner rather than later, I believe that we will get them, and when we do, remember its never tools like DPS meters that cause the problems, its people. So if the community is so awesome and mature here in LOTRO like people here like to claim, then there should be no problems.

Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster

This strawman gets be on to death around here when talking about meters.

Having tools for people who want them somehow equals not having fun.

For such a self proclaimed laid back and mature community there is a lack of tolerance to those who do express a positive opinion about meters.

I really hope that we have them sooner rather than later, I believe that we will get them, and when we do, remember its never tools like DPS meters that cause the problems, its people. So if the community is so awesome and mature here in LOTRO like people here like to claim, then there should be no problems.

The argument about whether it is good for the community and not can, quite frankly, go around in circles... the technical and monetary issues remain, however. I do not see such tools to be in Turbine's best interest. Therefore, I do not see much of a chance of their being officially supported and functionality implemented.

Originally Posted by Lohi

The single largest problem LOTRO has is with players trying to rank other players.

Mediocre players make this game great, and I have more fun grouping with them than I ever have grouping with highly skilled jerks. You succeed in a group with mediocre players, and they thank everyone for having a fun time. You succeed in a group with some elites and they'll complain about how they could have done better if it weren't for those holding them back.

So you get to be all upset about his statement but yet get to come back calling others jerks. Thats the problem with this game community. This false sense of maturity and greatness over other games. Plenty of elitist attitudes around here, and I am not talking about player skill.

LOTRO does not Need a DPS or any other meter. It is not a hard game to play. You should be able to figure things out on your own - people have been doing it for 3+ years. DPS and Threat eters do much more harm than good.

DPS Meters:

A lot of people will judge people based on what they do on the meter (even though it is not an accurate measure of contribution to the raid). Human nature being what it is, people will blow the meter results out of proportion - it has happened time and time again.

There are numerous examples of how the meters can negatively affect raiding. They lead to people denegrating other players. People insult other players if they do not meet some arbitrary standard of DPS (which often does not take into account the non dps aspects of the class). Meters cause friction between people who should be working together.

This can lead to people playing to the meters instead of playing smart. I recall Pallies in WoW who refused to cleanse because it caused their numbers to be lower on the heal meter. In LOTRO a RK who removes corruption, casts Do Not Fall to XXX, etc. will be lower on the meter than one who DPSes exclusively. If the RK who exclusively DPSes is praised because of his high DPS, the better RK (who uses all of his skills) will have an incentive to only DPS as well. Meters cause bad play.

Human nature is what it is. People want the big numbers and judge people based on the big numbers. Comparing epeen is a time honored tradition in MMOs. The only way to keep the tools from being abused is to control them.

(If people want to merely tweak their own rotation or gear, they can use some of the tools already present in LOTRO. There is no reason to allow implementation of group meters.)


Threat Meters:

I used a Threat Meter when raiding in WoW. Having a working threat meter allowed me to pump out the maximum amount of healing, while staying just below the tank in aggro. Groups who use threat meters will have their overall dps and healing output increased (since you know exactly how much you can do without getting aggro). You don't have to think about controling your aggro, the mod does all the thinking for you. (Do we really want to dumb things down so our computer does the thinking for us?) Threat meters will trivialize content for raids that use the meters and potentially force the Devs to increase the difficulty to compensate. Groups that do not use the meters will then be facing content with little chance of success.

Originally Posted by RingOfFire

Why are "skill problems" so important? Here in LOTRO, the important thing is to have fun. Some find it fun to simply be successful in crafting. Others find it fun to hang out with others in a social environment. There are those who find it fun to run challenging group content. Others find it fun to max out their characters in every aspect possible. There are still others who find it fun to raid in challenging content.

In other words, not everyone needs to be highly "skilled" to have fun. In fact, that group which may be throwing itself against some hard content again and again, and constantly wiping, may actually be having fun!

Not everyone wants others to give them advice on how to play better, and that usually only works out if said players ask for that advice. In rare cases, privately (and politely) asking them to change something in their skill rotation or other area may be warranted, but I cannot see any other reasonable alternative which works outside of the appropiate kinds of groups (min/maxers and dedicated raiders, for examples).

A group DPS meter throws that out the window entirely, and may not always fix the problem. In the right hands it may have the potential to do some good... but once added to the game, it will come into the hands of those who would rather use that in insolent ways, guaranteed. In such a situation it will do far more harm than it can good.

As mentioned by another person in this thread, there is currently a functioning, third-party, optional opt-in version of what the OP is asking for. That is more than enough.

Thank you for your well-written thoughts. On any given day the activities which are fun to me in LOTRO change. Some days are instance days, some are questing days, some are crafting days, some are even "do nothing but hang out with cool people in-game" days.

I am only one person, but the fact that I so drastically differ from Magian's approach to gameplay is proof that not everyone wants what he wants, nor believes what he believes. All the other dissenting responses to his ideas over the years just add to the pile.

Magian, you assume too much, especially that "The single largest problem LOTRO suffers from is mediocore [sic] players." Your elitism is your assumption that anyone would want you to "teach" them anything and that you are qualified to do so. Who are you to even be the one who decides what is mediocre?

As far as the actual meters go, there's no guarantee players will improve their skill levels by using them. Assuming such is folly and tunnel-visioned.

Originally Posted by Bradd

LOTRO does not Need a DPS or any other meter. It is not a hard game to play. You should be able to figure things out on your own - people have been doing it for 3+ years. DPS and Threat eters do much more harm than good.

DPS Meters:

A lot of people will judge people based on what they do on the meter (even though it is not an accurate measure of contribution to the raid). Human nature being what it is, people will blow the meter results out of proportion - it has happened time and time again.

There are numerous examples of how the meters can negatively affect raiding. They lead to people denegrating other players. People insult other players if they do not meet some arbitrary standard of DPS (which often does not take into account the non dps aspects of the class). Meters cause friction between people who should be working together.

This can lead to people playing to the meters instead of playing smart. I recall Pallies in WoW who refused to cleanse because it caused their numbers to be lower on the heal meter. In LOTRO a RK who removes corruption, casts Do Not Fall to XXX, etc. will be lower on the meter than one who DPSes exclusively. If the RK who exclusively DPSes is praised because of his high DPS, the better RK (who uses all of his skills) will have an incentive to only DPS as well. Meters cause bad play.

Human nature is what it is. People want the big numbers and judge people based on the big numbers. Comparing epeen is a time honored tradition in MMOs. The only way to keep the tools from being abused is to control them.

(If people want to merely tweak their own rotation or gear, they can use some of the tools already present in LOTRO. There is no reason to allow implementation of group meters.)


Threat Meters:

I used a Threat Meter when raiding in WoW. Having a working threat meter allowed me to pump out the maximum amount of healing, while staying just below the tank in aggro. Groups who use threat meters will have their overall dps and healing output increased (since you know exactly how much you can do without getting aggro). You don't have to think about controling your aggro, the mod does all the thinking for you. (Do we really want to dumb things down so our computer does the thinking for us?) Threat meters will trivialize content for raids that use the meters and potentially force the Devs to increase the difficulty to compensate. Groups that do not use the meters will then be facing content with little chance of success.

I am sure we will have them soon and I am excited to be able to use them here in Lotro. I cant wait. They are coming.

Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster

I am sure we will have them soon and I am excited to be able to use them here in Lotro. I cant wait. They are coming.

Some developers in a recent WarCry chat have made it quite clear that they do not want anything which trivializes the content they make. Threat meters are definitely one of those things.

Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster

I am sure we will have them soon and I am excited to be able to use them here in Lotro. I cant wait. They are coming.

If that is true, your name will be quite prophetic for both the community and the game.

Meters do not cause bad play. A meter is a tool. No different than many other tools in the world. It's all in how a person uses a tool. Do i think Lotro should add a DPS meter? Not really, though personally I could care less either way. But blaming the tool, instead of the people using the tool is a foolish move. Meters can help someone learn alot about how they play on a personal level. This can be a great thing. When the tool is used to criticize others, that can be a bad thing. It can also be a good thing, since it can allow them to become a better player.

And yeah, when you complain about not wanting WoW's elitism to come here many of you come off very very elitist yourself, somehow feeling you are a better person because yu play Lotro instead of WoW. Lastly, many people find many aspects of games fun. Some just relaxing, seeing the content, beating a mob, defeating a raid, etc. Some find it in crafting, or the economics they can shape on the AH. Others find it by seeing how good they can be compared to others. NONE of these ways are the wrong way.

This wasnt directed at anyone in particular, but in general. Sometimes I don't believe people realize how things come across.

Originally Posted by Magian

Anyone who PUGs knows there is a major skill problem with these players.

Huh, I've only played a few weeks, only to level 25, and I've never played any MMO before. I went with PUGs through the Great Barrows Maze multiple times in beta, getting through it more often than not (and the nots weren't due to low DPS, those damn worms!)

I went through GB Thadur with a kin group, which retreated/reset a few times over, to the point people went out to repair. Later I led a PUG and although we were defeated and reset once, we creamed Thadur right after that.

I did GB Sambrog with that same group, completely ignorantly (I'd never set foot in it before) and we rolled right through it.

I have NO idea what DPS anyone was doing. Because with the right strategy, you will surmount any challenge regardless of a small % difference in your DPS.

Now admittedly, the PUG that rocked it were all new to LOTRO, but many of them had WoW experience.

Also an anecdote is not data.

But! The key here? We all had FUN. Actually more fun in the defeats, than in the easy Sambrog instance fact of the matter.

I'm investing my time to enjoy myself, I'd rather share fun and lose every night rather than play a "winning" numbers game. (There are alternatives for that.)

Now admittedly, I haven't played WoW, nor even seen a DPS meter, I didn't even upgrade my armor because I'd have to run across the skirmish camp and back and deal with multiple vendors--but I wasn't defeated, so my guess is my armor was suitable, regardless of the numbers.

Now here's a question for those in favor of maximizing DPS. Do you know when doing more DPS as a group could be your worst choice of strategy? Did you ever consider that the reason your group isn't excelling is your are doing too much DPS? Would you believe the hunter in the aforementioned PUG, that achieved so much, actually turned off his stance and used lower DPS autoattacks instead of powerful skills?

It's about managing time effectively. Higher DPS obviously means less time. Less time to recover. Less time for debuffs/stuns/whatever to run out, so you remain vulnerable. Less time to regain power. Less time for cooldown timers to finish, so your life saving skills aren't available when needed. Less time for the group to be prepared. A perfect example is the GB Thadur instance.

But I'm not going to gripe when others are doing too much DPS, thankfully most people see beyond "if the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail" and we'll have fun regardless!



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster

This strawman gets be on to death around here when talking about meters.

Having tools for people who want them somehow equals not having fun.

For such a self proclaimed laid back and mature community there is a lack of tolerance to those who do express a positive opinion about meters.

I really hope that we have them sooner rather than later, I believe that we will get them, and when we do, remember its never tools like DPS meters that cause the problems, its people. So if the community is so awesome and mature here in LOTRO like people here like to claim, then there should be no problems.

Just a couple of points
A) You might want to brush up on what a strawman is in reality

B) You might want to do the same for "Tolerance" and how it relates to poor behavior... Kitty Genovese and all that (hyperbole, I know)

C) Those that are clamoring for these tools the loudest are the ones I am worried about. More than once, they have demonstrated that they are the very people who would be the problem, no matter how loud they proclaim otherwise

D) Meters themselves provide no value without benchmarks to meet and said benchmarks are useless if they result in a failed run or wipe.

E) Meters provide only a little insight to the inner workings of combat. Real knowledge of classes, their abilities as well as observation will teach a player much much more about how to play than any meter ever will... give a man a fish, teach a man to fish... and all that.

Originally Posted by Magian

Let's make PUGs fun again. Bring on the tools.

Do you mean "tools" as in the DPS meters? Or do you mean the "tools" that want DPS meters? Because the word fits both perfectly.