Thread: NO MORE CJ's!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Sujae

LOL!!



I am hopeful these changes will make our game play better.

I understand what Ech is saying with regards to a Burg being the CJ starter but at the same time when all I see is the green glow when one is started it makes me wonder when do you guys actually use the other colors and what good is the wheel doing for you in the Moors in the first place? Wouldn't a Minstrel or Runekeeper in your group do the same thing for you?

Aahh but see a Mins or RK wouldn't be able to wander the map in STEALTH and tractor the solo Creeps they find.... Not that Freeps would do something like that of course. We all know that such dastardly tactics are solely the province of Creep players....

Yeah, still not seeing where this "nerf" is for Burgs or Wargs...

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

but I can see how losing the wheel is a MUCH bigger nerf to burgs than other classes able to CJ.

I completely disagree.

Burgs are being brought in line with everyone else. They have 3 availabilities for CJ type stuns (2 plus 1 traited that gives a chance for one, correct me if I'm wrong), and a variety of other methods to stun/mezz. Oh, and do tools work on creeps, like marbles? I haven't gotten to try that out yet.

They are not healers. Go get a captain/minstrel/rune-keeper. Bergs tuk or jerbs!

However, all they have to do is swipe one npc in order to get the full force of GGGGGG. Creeps are just screwed in that regard.

So, I'm sure Ech will be fine.

Originally Posted by dudeshwag

That is so accurate. Although, I wouldn't just single out the Wargs. This is pretty much accross the board for the Creeps I run with. Doesn't matter what class initiates the CJ, rarely, and I mean rarely (99% of the time) does ANYONE fill in the colors. It's a target lockdown for Creeps, nothing more.

I'll do it if I'm out of stealth and too far to reach the opponent in time for the CJ to end.

I'll hit that purple, why not.

And if I'm out of power, sometimes I'll do the power option at the very end of the CJ so it doesn't root me in place for too long.

Well, now that Luc has looked like a heel in two separate threads, and most mature and rational players already know what we've been talking about for 2 pages now, shall we drop it?

but...but... that would be LOGICAL.....

Originally Posted by The_Observer

I completely disagree.

Oh, and do tools work on creeps, like marbles? I haven't gotten to try that out yet.

They definately do not work. Marbles or caltrops.

I guess I'm just surprised at all the snuff over green conjuctions.. you have a heal conjuction avalible, and orcs even get a racial heal that isn't compariable to strength of morale. You can't on one hand take your friends heal (random or not) from a BA and then say with the other that burglars shouldn't heal.

Burglar conjuctions are not a promised conjuction everytime anyways, I've seem them parried, blocked and evaded. The legendary trait for a conjuction has hit on a creep I would say, less than 10% for a conjuction.

Exploit opening has a five minute cooldown.
HIPS has a ten minute cooldown.

A burglar who uses their CJ's for healing, is someone who is playing for the group. To support the group with the heals and the power they can offer. Burglar ICPR is saddening, our DPS is even more fail. We can stun, mez and debuff our opponents, but overall when the minstrel is being focused, can't get off an induction its the burglar that pop's a CJ using up a good CD for the good of the group. You guys are doing your job of making our healers focused on, and as a burglar, I'll do my best to help them out. A good burglar thinks of the group above their own CD's and that just isn't comparable to warg's role in a group. Wargs have their own role.

A major issue with PvMP development, is that it is an asymetrical system. Creeps can only be creeps, and only be so in a single zone. Limited quests, little leveling save for those ranks, and nothing outside of that in the wider game community. They exist as an opposition force for Freeps. You can't let them get too weak or else there isn't a credible force for Freeps to fight, yet they can't be too strong or else you can select your choice of other issues.

I think there has to be some kind of randomizer. Something that helps simulate the fog of war, forces sides out of the holes, makes the entire zone more dynamic.

Send some uber-NPC on random strolls through the zone, trigger some kind of NPC event, etc. Somebody in another thread suggested mini-fellowships with their own buffs, based on size. Maybe do that, and also do it based on level.

Oh, and get rid of Warg stealth.

You know, the removing of CJs isn't the big nerf for wargs. This is:

"The Warg's Claws skill will now have a 1 second cooldown."

At least we still have our bleed stacking, but I am a bit concerned about what effect that's going to have.

Also, we're missing the fact that the removal of CJs is a huge buff for champs, but it hasn't stopped Luc from complaining.

I am not too concerned about the changes since we have already figured it out.

We had the Hugler roll a RK since it only takes like 2 buttons to pwn at. Then Ech will share the fun with the Hugler while she can either zap zap the creeps or heal her mommy.

So far she can jump and pound on the directional keys to either spin and move in a certain direction. I think with just a few months of intensive training she will be able to master the RK.

Originally Posted by The_Observer

I completely disagree.

Burgs are being brought in line with everyone else. They have 3 availabilities for CJ type stuns (2 plus 1 traited that gives a chance for one, correct me if I'm wrong), and a variety of other methods to stun/mezz. Oh, and do tools work on creeps, like marbles? I haven't gotten to try that out yet.

They are not healers. Go get a captain/minstrel/rune-keeper. Bergs tuk or jerbs!

However, all they have to do is swipe one npc in order to get the full force of GGGGGG. Creeps are just screwed in that regard.

So, I'm sure Ech will be fine.

I wasn't speaking for Ech. That's first

Secondly, no, burglar tools of the trade do not work on creeps.

I am far, far from anything close to a burglar expert. But from where I sit, a burglar brings a few unique things to a fellowship. CJs are one of those things if not the biggest unique ability they have in terms of group utility. Like a captain's ability to heal, buff and mitigate damage in very unique ways, etc.

The removal of the color wheel seems to me to be "fixing" the wrong problem in addition to fixing the right one (the protective/curative nature of the stun).

Lastly, to say that burglars aren't healers? Then I guess wargs shouldn't heal their groups via howling; and non healing class uruks shouldn't heal those around them; and spiders shouldn't heal every time something dies. That's a pretty silly notion Lots of classes have abilities to heal their groups or themselves in unique ways.

Anyway just so my own perspective isn't twisted. I personally am thrilled that they've changed in terms of protection and cures. But, I am recognizing what a shift this may be for small grouping burglars who do not hang around NPCS much if ever and those who have served in the role as "healer" in their groups.

Originally Posted by ElwingValar

I am not too concerned about the changes since we have already figured it out.

We had the Hugler roll a RK since it only takes like 2 buttons to pwn at. Then Ech will share the fun with the Hugler while she can either zap zap the creeps or heal her mommy.

So far she can jump and pound on the directional keys to either spin and move in a certain direction. I think with just a few months of intensive training she will be able to master the RK.

Gah!!!!!!!

Go patch, it is up.

And according to the Dev Chat, either it was a very bad joke, or one of them said they are looking to remove Radiance Gear from the game in the future.

The impact this has on PvMP, is that it represents a major time-sink going away, which may, one might hope, bring Freeps with more free-time to the Moors.

Oh right, right...

I totally forgot that. Nerf Healing Howl and ALL Creepside heals that are not from the WL or Defiler. No, scratch that; just remove them. Can skip the nerf process and go right for the whole enchilada by removing them.

So let's see where we are at.

Remove
Warg stealth
Warg grouping
Warg stuns
Warg healing
BA healing
Spider healing
Reaver healing

Did I miss anything? lol

Going to change my last name to Pezdispenserofreknown.

Originally Posted by Obsidian-moth

They definately do not work. Marbles or caltrops.

I guess I'm just surprised at all the snuff over green conjuctions.. you have a heal conjuction avalible, and orcs even get a racial heal that isn't compariable to strength of morale. You can't on one hand take your friends heal (random or not) from a BA and then say with the other that burglars shouldn't heal.

Burglar conjuctions are not a promised conjuction everytime anyways, I've seem them parried, blocked and evaded. The legendary trait for a conjuction has hit on a creep I would say, less than 10% for a conjuction.

You're assuming things about what I think of other mechanics.

There is no warband maneuver that has the strength of G. None. Currently.

And I don't care much for the Uruk heal, I do think it should be brought in line to Man heal.

And creep conjunction proctors run into the same b/p/e chances. As often as you think yours gets b/p/e'd, ours does as well.

Burglars, wargs, weavers, etc. are not healers. To rely on any sort of heal they give as the sole method of healing your party is bound to only end in frustration, especially in PvP-land. I don't think there's any group of creeps that expects me to be the person to keep them alive with my silly Rallying Howl. That skill and my CJ proctoring are nice bonuses to a class that was designed to provide something entirely different for the group it is in.

Originally Posted by Meijha

Oh right, right...

I totally forgot that. Nerf Healing Howl and ALL Creepside heals that are not from the WL or Defiler. No, scratch that; just remove them. Can skip the nerf process and go right for the whole enchilada by removing them.

So let's see where we are at.

Remove
Warg stealth
Warg grouping
Warg stuns
Warg healing
BA healing
Spider healing
Reaver healing

Did I miss anything? lol

Going to change my last name to Pezdispenserofreknown.

Wow, if you think that's what I - or anyone else here - am saying, you need to go back and re-read

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Wow, if you think that's what I - or anyone else here - am saying, you need to go back and re-read

She was talking about enchilada's.

Who's hungry now?!

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Wow, if you think that's what I - or anyone else here - am saying, you need to go back and re-read

While mangey is being pretty tongue and cheek throughout this thread, it would not surprise me that quite a few of the hard-core Freeps would like nothing better than to see this happen.

Originally Posted by dudeshwag

While mangey is being pretty tongue and cheek throughout this thread, it would not surprise me that quite a few of the hard-core Freeps would like nothing better than to see this happen.

You win the gold star!

And yeah I am being a tad snarky

Originally Posted by Meijha

You win the gold star!

And yeah I am being a tad snarky

Snarky Mangey is my favorite Mangey.

Originally Posted by Meijha

You win the gold star!

And yeah I am being a tad snarky

Well, no A/C this weekend tends to make a person snarky!!!

Originally Posted by dudeshwag

Well, no A/C this weekend tends to make a person snarky!!!

Yeah I haven't slept in 2 days. Really, really want to sleep plz. Caffeine isn't working anymore and I look like a weasel cause my eyes are bloodshot lol.

Originally Posted by dudeshwag

While mangey is being pretty tongue and cheek throughout this thread, it would not surprise me that quite a few of the hard-core Freeps would like nothing better than to see this happen.

Like who? Because a lot of the "hard core freeps"...were creeps long before most of the current creeps

I thought the discussion was pretty interesting, balanced and productive. No one said anything like what Mangey is talking about it. Seems like trolling for no reason to me.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Like who? Because a lot of the "hard core freeps"...were creeps long before most of the current creeps

Just read the boards... you'll be able to figure out who wants the Nerf Bat

{quote}I thought the discussion was pretty interesting, balanced and productive. No one said anything like what Mangey is talking about it. Seems like trolling for no reason to me.[/QUOTE]

She's being Snarky... 8)

Between some of the posts on this board and the MP board the past few months I do not see how there can be any doubt that there ARE ppl who would like to see those exact changes. (shrugs) I am being fairly snarky though.

let's just be clear here, we're talking about two classes, the warg and burglar who have the single biggest advantage of any two classes out there. Anyone take a gander at what that is?

Ok, now that we all see that advantage, let's take a look at how that plays into the whole dynamic playground that is the moors.

I'll be using this sight for reference here:

http://surugi.com/lotrostats/

For the current year on Landy, we have with a cutoff of rank 3:

542 rank 3+ Wargs played for a total infamy of 36,087,100

263 rank 3+ Burgs played for a total renown of 19,698,956

Conclusion:
There are over twice as many wargs this year than have been burgs.
While there are more wargs, burgs have gotten moderately more points per character than wargs.

Now, if you take into account the sheer numbers of Wargs compared to the next most played creep class (Ba's) you see the wargs make up a much greater portion of the creep army than burgs do the freep army.

Burgs aren't even close to the highest played freep class, 263 burgs to 520 hunters.

So I think we can all see that yes, freeps have been hurt far more by the inherent Cj's than creeps have this past year simply based on sheer numbers alone. I hope that point is beyong debate.

With that, sure, you'll see the ones being affected moreso also being the ones complaining the most. It's a natural thing.

How the cj mechanic differs, and has also been pointed out, is that a warg uses the cj primarily for the lockdown duration whereas the burg uses the cj more often (due to the availability of the all greens) for actual use of the color wheel.

How will these changes play out in the future? Personally I don't see a HUGE inpact either way with these changes being implemented. The Cripple+pounce mechanic wasn't tweaked at all. I know, I tested it on npcs, and Jaiyne tested it on me.

The real area I see change is with the certain classes who will have skills making the player immune to these such as LM who will now be releveant once again in a larger role.

Regardless, here's to better times!

Fighting a Noob Warg* tip #47: Don't pot the first stun. Fill the time prepping your skills and learning theirs while you simply get your healing pot on cooldown for later in the fight.

They're going to think they have you and pour everything (and by everything I mean claws, lawl) into those 5 seconds then have nothing left when you pot the second one and kick their butt with your superior DPS/tactics.

It's like sprinting at the beginning of a marathon. If you give it your all right out of the box, you're going to run out as everyone passes you by.

Note: Make sure you're seeing I'm referring to "noob warg" and not a Warg that knows what they're doing.

Re LMs: LMs have never ceased to be an absolutely invaluable asset in a raid and suggesting that a simple stun immunity not preventing knockdowns somehow makes them irrelevant is mind boggling and simplistic to say the least. I can't tell you how many people I've seen die that would have lived if they had SI up (especially LMs) but they were too lazy to bother with such a simple skill. That one skill never was a make or break for that class and it's a shame so many people let it get to them.

Re Burgs: A simple lack of them on the field didn't make the presence of those that were there any less obvious to those of us that faced them.

I wonder what the warg deathrate is compared to the burglar deathrate, though...

I would like to see that bar graph in relation to this other stuffs.

Originally Posted by leekofthewood

http://surugi.com/lotrostats/

For the current year on Landy, we have with a cutoff of rank 3:

542 rank 3+ Wargs played for a total infamy of 36,087,100

263 rank 3+ Burgs played for a total renown of 19,698,956

Conclusion:
There are over twice as many wargs this year than have been burgs.
While there are more wargs, burgs have gotten moderately more points per character than wargs.

Not to be difficult Lee, but, that conclusion is awful. You walk into being a warg and getting to rank 3 on either side is rather easy. On the other hand, you have to actively pursue being a burglar as far as being leveled to go out to the moors. So that means only two times as many ready made stealth classes were played vs. people actively pursuing a really strong class with a major tactical advantage in the moors. Frankly, I thought the number would be four to five times greater than just two times. In fact it's actually quite a bit less than two times even. just sayin...

No ammount of nerfing can seperate me from my endless ezmode, claw spamming weak gameplay using stealth ways. We all know I got my rank 7 after three years because I abuse the system so much.

Guess how many fingers I'm holding up.

Bast

This thread needs more Blemm, because.


You are all dumb and I hate you.

Originally Posted by ElwingValar

I am not too concerned about the changes since we have already figured it out.

We had the Hugler roll a RK since it only takes like 2 buttons to pwn at. Then Ech will share the fun with the Hugler while she can either zap zap the creeps or heal her mommy.

So far she can jump and pound on the directional keys to either spin and move in a certain direction. I think with just a few months of intensive training she will be able to master the RK.

I am with you there, I actually feel sorry for the freeps, because I promised my daughter she could get here own account when F2P went live. We'll see how long I can hold her back from talking me into upgrading so she can pick up sticks on her own warg. Watch out for MiniCharrk.

Originally Posted by The_Observer

I wonder what the warg deathrate is compared to the burglar deathrate, though...

I would like to see that bar graph in relation to this other stuffs.

This was my orginal question to Luc's post.

Renown vs infamy is not what Im looking for, I'd like to see the kill vs death ratio Wartab for Burgulars vs Wargs.

Originally Posted by Sujae

This was my orginal question to Luc's post.

Renown vs infamy is not what Im looking for, I'd like to see the kill vs death ratio Wartab for Burgulars vs Wargs.

Much, much higher death rate for low ranked wargs I'm sure.

Originally Posted by Sujae

This was my orginal question to Luc's post.

Renown vs infamy is not what Im looking for, I'd like to see the kill vs death ratio Wartab for Burgulars vs Wargs.

I wonder how much of that has to do with tracking classes, though. I rarely get tracked more than a dozen time in a full evening of playing, while the hunters I play with tend to be tracking wargs every minute or two. Not to undermine it, because while wargs have better ability to escape a fight, burgs have a better ability to survive a fight, but it also just doesn't seem like most creeps hunt burgs the same way a lot of freeps hunt wargs.

Anyway, I think both should be happy to see CJs gone. It means everyone lives longer and doesn't really undermine either class' ability to succeed and be a real threat. It'll take some adjustment, sure. I'm almost always either the only healing in my small groups, or a major source of it, but nothing we can't work around.

Also, in case any burgs weren't aware, you can CJ spider hatchlings (although not defiler flies). At least, you could, I haven't checked it in F2P. Maybe they fixed it. It sounds like something they'll change once it occurs to them, but a useful trick while it lasts.

Re: people not potting out of stuns anyway... maybe giving too much credit, but it used to be that if you potted a stun, you'd get the blue dot immunity, which wargs could then CJ through to stun lock. If you let the stun wear off naturally, you'd get the red dot immunity which prevented CJs for 5 seconds.

Originally Posted by The_Observer

I wonder what the warg deathrate is compared to the burglar deathrate, though...

I would like to see that bar graph in relation to this other stuffs.

The death rate is affected by choices. The more risk you take, the more you die. You wouldn't get much out of a comparison.

Originally Posted by Reichpapers

The death rate is affected by choices. The more risk you take, the more you die. You wouldn't get much out of a comparison.

Burglars don't take risks, or as many?

Originally Posted by Reichpapers

The death rate is affected by choices. The more risk you take, the more you die. You wouldn't get much out of a comparison.

Very true. My warg has 2.5k deaths. About half of those are from me doing stupid things for a laugh.

People will just complain about knockdowns.