Wow that was a long fight and it would have been a blast
I don't mean this to come off as a troll (cause I'm not attempt to ) but this is a good example of how un-OP creeps really are. I think I counted 16 creep deaths to 8 freep deaths from a group of 6 well orgranized freeps vs. (from best count) 6-10ish creeps. Any coordinated freep group (where people actually play their class well) > equal or larger creep group.
Semirage - Weaver of the Woods on "E"
Medipac - Wildmen of the Woods on "I"
Wow that was a long fight and it would have been a blast
I don't mean this to come off as a troll (cause I'm not attempt to ) but this is a good example of how un-OP creeps really are. I think I counted 16 creep deaths to 8 freep deaths from a group of 6 well orgranized freeps vs. (from best count) 6-10ish creeps. Any coordinated freep group (where people actually play their class well) > equal or larger creep group.
Perhaps, but those Creeps weren't grouped together and playing all that well as a unit. We were. If they were grouped, FF'ing properly, and coordinating bubbles/heals/rezzes we wouldn't have lasted as long.
Wow that was a long fight and it would have been a blast
I don't mean this to come off as a troll (cause I'm not attempt to ) but this is a good example of how un-OP creeps really are. I think I counted 16 creep deaths to 8 freep deaths from a group of 6 well orgranized freeps vs. (from best count) 6-10ish creeps. Any coordinated freep group (where people actually play their class well) > equal or larger creep group.
U said it urself, well organized > unorganized
Nice vid Amily! Finally a fight were everyone didn't say, "wish we frapsed that"
Eesh, that was a bloodbath. Lol, creeps kept coming from nowhere. Makes one imagine how that grp would do in Survive the Barrow Downs. Amazing vid Amily
Perhaps, but those Creeps weren't grouped together and playing all that well as a unit. We were. If they were grouped, FF'ing properly, and coordinating bubbles/heals/rezzes we wouldn't have lasted as long.
How do you know they weren't grouped?
Semirage - Weaver of the Woods on "E"
Medipac - Wildmen of the Woods on "I"
Just spent the last 40mins laughing my **** off. Myself and Hero (Digitek) especially were absolutely **** faced - so watching ourselves in video was quiet a...chuckle LOL! Watching Amily send tells and reply in chat while fighting, having Iolio [Kinship] Anything going on? and Eddy fake jumping off the cliff 100 times had me in stitch'.
-
As for the political side towards the fight, ill say the creeps did have strong FF at points and im not that bold to call every high ranked, and skilled player in that video an idiot. Ive had plenty of 3v3s and 6v6 fights and i assure you even if they were grouped it wouldnt have changed much. What would have, would be a defiler or weaver for spamming hots, dots and power drains, add in a few more Cjs and you have yourself a easy meal.
What your trying to say Semi is that IF freeps group together in the right class, and play well they can be OP. Im not too keen on saying something like that, it feels like a very elitist thing to say.
I prefer to say- (ill try and be politically correct)
"The balance in SoM (for the average player/group) is hair line thin."
I honestly believe that to be correct in SoM, its very easy to have battles swing so easily one way or another, and the line of balance is paper thin. The new combat system and introduction of Devastates (ninja from Shray) seems to be a cause of such balancing issues.
As for our success, its very much based on player skill/experience to the current state of the moors, strat during the fight and having 4/6 sober.
Plus, a few of the Creeps that were in that fight (as far as I know) don't really join larger groups. It felt like we were fighting ~10 ungrouped/divided Creeps rather than Freeps. I think I know the difference, but I could be wrong.
And Orak, they were FF'ing Ami/Ed, but I think it's possible to chalk it up to the fact that Creeps are 'trained' to go after squishies/healers first.
Edit: Orak's answer is better, lol.
And Semi, I don't want you to think that I'm making some kind of disparaging remarks towards the Creeps that we fought. I credit all of them for playing with respect and honor, since they all played through multiple deaths and still brought the pain. However, they definitely weren't grouped. And they had more potential than to what they played. Oh well, c'est la vie.
Last edited by Illuminatus1379; Aug 06 2010 at 12:33 PM.
And Orak, they were FF'ing Ami/Ed, but I think it's possible to chalk it up to the fact that Creeps are 'trained' to go after squishies/healers first.
Prob is mate, i know all those creeps, they're tough as nails and know there stuff. Only 2 people were targeted during that fight, and it certainly wasnt to two LM pets. 3 of those creeps if not up to 5 could easily lead a raid freepside/creepside, (Smeg, Bubba, Gru, Patpat, Griz, Softello) and after picking apart that fight (without sounding like a self righteous bs artist) was ****en tough fight. Me and Hero (Digitek) only wished we werent completely **** faced.
What your trying to say Semi is that IF freeps group together in the right class, and play well they can be OP. Im not too keen on saying something like that, it feels like a very elitist thing to say.
I prefer to say- (ill try and be politically correct)
"The balance in SoM (for the average player/group) is hair line thin."
.
No what I'm saying is that Creeps aren't as OP as they are made out to be. If grouped coordinated freeps are playing their classes well (as they should) and are going against an equal or slightly larger creep force - they typically are going to have the advantage in a fight.
I'm not making elitist comments. I play both sides and just making an observation on conversations I've seen/heard while on freep side. I don't think creeps need the "nerf bat" that I've heard/seen while on freep side. The biggest issue, as I've stated before, with freep side is a lack of communication, people coordinating (doesn't mean in a raid setting exclusively) and people playing their classes well (healers healing, etc.)
Semirage - Weaver of the Woods on "E"
Medipac - Wildmen of the Woods on "I"
No what I'm saying is that Creeps aren't as OP as they are made out to be. If grouped coordinated freeps are playing their classes well (as they should) and are going against an equal or slightly larger creep force - they typically are going to have the advantage in a fight.
I'm not making elitist comments. I play both sides and just making an observation on conversations I've seen/heard while on freep side. I don't think creeps need the "nerf bat" that I've heard/seen while on freep side. The biggest issue, as I've stated before, with freep side is a lack of communication, people coordinating (doesn't mean in a raid setting exclusively) and people playing their classes well (healers healing, etc.)
No offense, if your going to pull the 'co-op card' then you need to re-think freepside. For one, why should a solo mini in WS (which takes 10sec to drop) heal another, when they can DPS in ways greater then Champs?
Problem isnt freepside, its freep toons. Easier example again, freeps are made to PVE, creeps are made to PVMP. This sums up the comparison.
As for your comment about freeps together against greater numbers, its very circumstantial. As i said, balance is a fine line in SoM - either side can pull a few cards and decimate the opposition...which is a huge problem in SoM when your looking for a good fight.
Great video btw loved the soundtrack. I love seeing organized groups of freeps running around makes for a great fight. Also like it when small group vs small group isn't called out in ts3 or ooc. We shall have our revenge for the Glory of Sauron.
./salutes ANV
No offense, if your going to pull the 'co-op card' then you need to re-think freepside. For one, why should a solo mini in WS (which takes 10sec to drop) heal another, when they can DPS in ways greater then Champs?
Problem isnt freepside, its freep toons. Easier example again, freeps are made to PVE, creeps are made to PVMP. This sums up the comparison.
As for your comment about freeps together against greater numbers, its very circumstantial. As i said, balance is a fine line in SoM - either side can pull a few cards and decimate the opposition...which is a huge problem in SoM when your looking for a good fight.
No offence, but we probably talking about two different time zones. I believe you're in Assie time (which I am rarely on at that time) I don't think toons have anything to do with it. My observations are based upon my time when I've been on freep side (non Assie time). It's rare to be able to get into a group and you have a bunch of non grouped running around getting slaughtered and complaining about how OP creeps are (and I'm willing most of those have never been on creep side fighting against an organized freep group). Unless Leon comes out and then it's a freep zerg (which I find is funny considering how much complaining there is about Vyxe's supposed zerging)
When I have been able to get into a group, I've experienced the following: the only Min in a group who wants to WS instead of heal, hunters who won't poison remove or LM who won't stun DoT). Granted it's not any different than a WL who won't heal but wants to DPS - but hey people can play for whatever they want since it's their buck.
In the end I still stand by my opinion. Sorry for the derail, Amily.
Semirage - Weaver of the Woods on "E"
Medipac - Wildmen of the Woods on "I"
No what I'm saying is that Creeps aren't as OP as they are made out to be. If grouped coordinated freeps are playing their classes well (as they should) and are going against an equal or slightly larger creep force - they typically are going to have the advantage in a fight.
I'm not making elitist comments. I play both sides and just making an observation on conversations I've seen/heard while on freep side. I don't think creeps need the "nerf bat" that I've heard/seen while on freep side. The biggest issue, as I've stated before, with freep side is a lack of communication, people coordinating (doesn't mean in a raid setting exclusively) and people playing their classes well (healers healing, etc.)
It's not that Creeps are OP, in the sense of the individual toon (even though highly ranked Reavers, Wargs, and Spiders are very powerful 1v1). It's that they have certain tools at their disposal that they no longer need to remain competitive. For instance, maps...
Maps were the great equalizer back when Creeps were, on average, much weaker than Freeps. Now, they can really tip the scales in the Creeps' favor. Imo, winning a given engagement means being the last one standing... irregardless of many kills/points you or your opponent earned. With Creep maps, a nearly constant red map (i.e. Lug/TR rezzes belonging to Creeps), and AoE rezzes on short CDs Creeps, more often than not in my own experience, will be the last ones standing after a given engagement of roughly equal numbers. There is plenty of room for exceptions, of course, but the fact remains that Creeps are much better at 'out-proliferating' Freeps in order to win the field of battle.
**Sidebar ** Now, Freeps aren't weaksauce either... if you look at aggregate infamy/renown it's slightly tilted in the Freeps' favor (but I don't use that to judge the quality of the fighting, only the amount of killing that occurred in a given time period).**/Siderbar**
Anyway, my point is that Creeps aren't OP in the sense that individual Creeps need to be nerfed. Given the direction that the Creepside is headed, from what the Devs seem to be doing, they won't lose all that morale/mitigations/avoidance/crit defence anytime soon. That's fine, that doesn't make Creeps OP on any grand scale by itself... but combine a very strong tendency to zerg rather than out-play/out-skill the Freeps with maps and AoE rezzes and that's why Creeps seem OP.
I'd like to see Freeps lose their mounts and gain the opportunity to grind for a set of maps, comparable (but not necessarily equal) to Creep maps. Either that, or remove all maps/mounts altogether.
P.S. Both sides Zerg... a lot. It's just that with maps Creeps are much more able to zerg because of their vastly superior mobility. I know enough to know that neither side is inherently 'better' or has any kind of moral superiority over the other. Both sides do the same things and have the same tendencies. The physical differences between the sides are what differentiate how these tendencies unfurl themselves.
I wouldn't mind seeing the end of horses and give Freeps maps. It will be real interesting if we had the same map in locations...lol. Although, I think separate faction map in locations would be better.
All I have to say, last night was really brutal ... lol
NICE THE MINNY of ALL MINNIES! WE BE CAUSING TROUBLE SOON AMILY!
“There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.” Ernest Hemingway
It's not that Creeps are OP, in the sense of the individual toon (even though highly ranked Reavers, Wargs, and Spiders are very powerful 1v1). It's that they have certain tools at their disposal that they no longer need to remain competitive. For instance, maps...
Maps were the great equalizer back when Creeps were, on average, much weaker than Freeps. Now, they can really tip the scales in the Creeps' favor. Imo, winning a given engagement means being the last one standing... irregardless of many kills/points you or your opponent earned. With Creep maps, a nearly constant red map (i.e. Lug/TR rezzes belonging to Creeps), and AoE rezzes on short CDs Creeps, more often than not in my own experience, will be the last ones standing after a given engagement of roughly equal numbers. There is plenty of room for exceptions, of course, but the fact remains that Creeps are much better at 'out-proliferating' Freeps in order to win the field of battle.
**Sidebar ** Now, Freeps aren't weaksauce either... if you look at aggregate infamy/renown it's slightly tilted in the Freeps' favor (but I don't use that to judge the quality of the fighting, only the amount of killing that occurred in a given time period).**/Siderbar**
Anyway, my point is that Creeps aren't OP in the sense that individual Creeps need to be nerfed. Given the direction that the Creepside is headed, from what the Devs seem to be doing, they won't lose all that morale/mitigations/avoidance/crit defence anytime soon. That's fine, that doesn't make Creeps OP on any grand scale by itself... but combine a very strong tendency to zerg rather than out-play/out-skill the Freeps with maps and AoE rezzes and that's why Creeps seem OP.
I'd like to see Freeps lose their mounts and gain the opportunity to grind for a set of maps, comparable (but not necessarily equal) to Creep maps. Either that, or remove all maps/mounts altogether.
P.S. Both sides Zerg... a lot. It's just that with maps Creeps are much more able to zerg because of their vastly superior mobility. I know enough to know that neither side is inherently 'better' or has any kind of moral superiority over the other. Both sides do the same things and have the same tendencies. The physical differences between the sides are what differentiate how these tendencies unfurl themselves.
We should all just listen to Illy. Time and time again he is on point.
“There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.” Ernest Hemingway
I'd like to see Freeps lose their mounts and gain the opportunity to grind for a set of maps, comparable (but not necessarily equal) to Creep maps. Either that, or remove all maps/mounts altogether.
I'm on the same page with you. I think reduce the # of maps creep side and add maps/lose mounts freep side would do much to make play around the map happen much more
Semirage - Weaver of the Woods on "E"
Medipac - Wildmen of the Woods on "I"
Dont think I saw any spiders on the creep side in that video.... probably would have made the battle go very differently. Very surprising since theres like 1 million spiders running around these days haha
I wouldn't mind seeing the end of horses and give Freeps maps. It will be real interesting if we had the same map in locations...lol. Although, I think separate faction map in locations would be better.
All I have to say, last night was really brutal ... lol
I would hate to see freeps get maps due to the simple fact they will map in zerg solo creeps. They will justify it by saying we have had it happen for the last 2 years blah blah blah and the moors will spiral into a worse state as both sides pull out the 'They do it too card".
Remove all maps and give creeps mounts. Will mean both sides can still have good raid v raid and it will improve soloers/small groupers enjoyment a lot more and will also reduce the "they called me out" because on a mount if you come across a fight and interrupt it its generally because you where heading that way not because you where called in as you dont have enough time to get there before the person is dead usually.
Semi: Im of the personal opinion creeps have the upperhand in small group and solo fights if high enough ranked where as freeps generally seem to stand up better in a raid vs raid fight as they then have the opportunity to use all of the skills they have received for tough pve fights.
Also having not had a lot of resistance this book when fighting small groups due to numbers issue i believe the creeps are generally not used to having to play their characters to the maximum capacity and so when they come up against a solid group of freeps they are unsure what to do.
Thanks Amily, that's a great video. I think I'll probably go back and watch it a few more times. It's not often that we get to sit back and watch a fight like that.
I now know that when I lay sticky poo in the middle of LM tar that I'm doing the right thing!
LOve the vid AMi! CAnt wait for u to get some of u me chaps and hurt back in action......
“There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.” Ernest Hemingway
My observations are based upon my time when I've been on freep side (non Assie time). It's rare to be able to get into a group and you have a bunch of non grouped running around getting slaughtered and complaining about how OP creeps are (and I'm willing most of those have never been on creep side fighting against an organized freep group). Unless Leon comes out and then it's a freep zerg (which I find is funny considering how much complaining there is about Vyxe's supposed zerging)
Vyxe zerg = flipping map red at all cost
Leon zerg = acquiring most renown at all cost
Kriptic
gw2:witchking.4380
WeaponX-I'm the best there is at what I do, but what I do isn't very nice.
Very interesting vid. I agree with a lot of what Semi says. Looking at the names of those fighting there I would say Bubbadoll and Carpetburn were grouped and probably the rest were ungrouped. Smeg may have been grouped with someone as I think I did see at least two WL bubbles.
Definitely having a spider lay poop over that tar would have made a big difference. Without it the freeps are effectively moving at twice the speed of the creeps, which is an enormous advantage. If there had been more focus fire on Amily I think that fight would have ended a lot sooner but it's very hard for wargs and reavers to do that on top of tar and Amily was doing a great job of moving back and forth through it.
Vyxe zerg = flipping map red at all cost. Which means agressive play and fighting in your foes npc's rather than running to your own. Sending out scouts to find the main freep group and engage them.
Leon zerg = acquiring most renown at all cost. Which means raiding when a raid isn't needed, riding about looking for anyone to Zerg then running for keeps/OP's when the fight looks tough.
Oh and don't forget the "we had one wipe so we're off to pve" times.
That was a really good place for a fight. Open area with trees close by for los and a nice little cliff to put your back against and possibly fall off. Effective use of tar there too.
Were you guys supposed to jump at the end there...or did someone stuff up and fall off? =p
As of late it feels like vyxypoo has been running from most encounters. Can't name the exact night but I remember running into his raid in one of our FF raids and his raid scattering out of TR like a bunch of cockroaches having the cupboard opened in them. That happened at least three times that night and at the point I dripped raid cause there was no point in being out there to fight and have a at least 18 or more creeps run before we even set up.
As of late it feels like vyxypoo has been running from most encounters. Can't name the exact night but I remember running into his raid in one of our FF raids and his raid scattering out of TR like a bunch of cockroaches having the cupboard opened in them. That happened at least three times that night and at the point I dripped raid cause there was no point in being out there to fight and have a at least 18 or more creeps run before we even set up.
What the heck is a Vyxypoo?
Semirage - Weaver of the Woods on "E"
Medipac - Wildmen of the Woods on "I"
Haha sweet vid lol. We would have lasted for ages but our power was getting low. I remember trying to spam heal with less than 100 power lol.
Good fight tho, our class make up was perfect.
As for the talk about maps, my idea would be having the outposts your map points (maybe add 1 or 2 more op's) that way when it's blue freeps can map there and visa versa. Something like that would be pretty fun. Also take away mounts.
Dont think I saw any spiders on the creep side in that video.... probably would have made the battle go very differently. Very surprising since theres like 1 million spiders running around these days haha
Yes, over the period of the fight 1 spider could drain many thousands of power
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