Thread: Why are ppl so keen to change the RK legacies

reading thru the ask the the RK community thread i find it rather alarming the amount of ppl that are complaining about RK LI.
Alot of ppl are complaining that its to hard to get a good LI, or that we need to carry different ones around to heal and dps. Well i hate to break it to everyone, so does every other class. Well i should say every player that plays to win.

That was the whole idea of LI, you can have different legacies for different situations. sure you can have one set of LI that are ok for most situations but most players will have a second weapon or bag/book etc for different situations.
It is good that we have separate legacies for fire/lighting/healing. It enables us more specialisation. I can have a unique fire/lighting and healing set depending on what role i play.

The current legacies and the pool distibution is almost perfect for RKs when talking about DPS. Yes it can take time finding that perfect start, but when we do thats the battle almost won. we are not like other classes that rely on getting pool As on reforges to have a good weapon/class slot.

Talking Stones
We have no junk Pool A legacies, unlike many other classes. So while we have to deal with trying to get all healing or all fire/lighting on IDwhen we do were set. it takes no time to id a weapon. 3rd ages are cheap and easily attainable. id rather ID 20wepaons and know there junk from the start than waste time and effort lvling them only to fnd out there junk after some bad reforges. Our pool B legacies are ok but apart from FOS crit, not getting any desirable pool Bs isnt much of an issue because our Pool As are so strong.

Our satchels are much the same, with the excpetion of healing, which i believe needs to have the Pool distribtion of prelude and mending verse looked at.

The bottom line is we have it easy compared to some classes, i know my rk had 6 great LIs, before my LM had one good one. Any attempt to combine healing/dps legacies or to make things more generalised will take away a large chunk of that customization LI are meant to bring us, and it will also weaken the classes abiltiy to do both. We are a specialist class, with the abilty to do top DPS and main heal. for that we need set LI to represent that.

The way i see it is if they start combining legacies or making them more general, there going to make them weaker. Otherwise we will become overpowered in the LI department. There not going to give us a universal -15%power cost or +15% dps. or +Crit. because wed still have roughly 6 legacies on a LI, and with jsut 3 we could have covered what would take us most of the points on a LI to upgrade with the current system. That means we could upgrade other legacies more than we could now and i can see it creating inbalance. So my thinking is if the Devs listen to the ppl complaing they will make the values of -power cost less. And if that is the way they go, you have effectivly nerfed us. SO PLEASE STOP ASKING FOR THIS!

We are a unique class, we can be top DPS or top healing, we need LI that reflect that, not some cookie cutter junk one size fits all LI. if you only wana carry around one weapon roll a hunter.

I think you have a point here

Minstrel: healing set versus solo/war speech set
Guard: OP set versus sword and board set
Captain: Healing set versus (something else...never rolled a cappie)
Burg: Gambler set versus DPS set versus CC set
Hunter/champ: not really sure if these guys do anything other than dps
Warden: solo/dps versus tank mode

On a side note, I find it somewhat disappointing that many RKs in the feedback thread simply say "fix our bugs please" rather than taking some thought to outline some real improvements or changes.
I seem to be able to blow stuff up pretty well despite certain things not working as intended.

Fixing bugs would be some real improvements and change.

Originally Posted by ShammWoww

I think you have a point here

Minstrel: healing set versus solo/war speech set
Guard: OP set versus sword and board set
Captain: Healing set versus (something else...never rolled a cappie)
Burg: Gambler set versus DPS set versus CC set
Hunter/champ: not really sure if these guys do anything other than dps
Warden: solo/dps versus tank mode

On a side note, I find it somewhat disappointing that many RKs in the feedback thread simply say "fix our bugs please" rather than taking some thought to outline some real improvements or changes.
I seem to be able to blow stuff up pretty well despite certain things not working as intended.

The bugs have persisted since launch, you need to fix them first to establish what the real baseline is for rk's before moving on. You wouldn't build an add-on to your house until the foundations were set. They originally balanced champs around fervour, when they decided to "fix" fervour it all went pear-shaped.

We do have a couple of bad legs they could do away with. For example CA power costs. Taking away 15% of a really low power cost skill amounts to like 2-3 power saved depending on if you have battle power costs already.

Shocking touch resist rating is another. It was meh before the ST nerf and now its way less useful, if we could say keep a mob cc like a burg or lm can, it would be good. Its been stated that we aren't a cc class though and we got nerfed because you could chain cc 10% of the time with a trait. Why do we have a cc class legacy if we aren't a cc class?

Originally Posted by Tartare

stuff

Your thread title is a bit confusing. I don't think many RKs are complaining about individual RK LI legacies. The frustration is more with how those legacies are set up in the pools (although -Steady Attunement Power is pretty much a pile).

RK legacies are currently a hybrid cesspool. Finding a really good RK LI for a designated roll (DPS or Healz) is very difficult. Finding an optimal RK LI is nearly impossible. My RK has ID'd and melted hundreds of LIs and still has only mediocre LIs to show for it (yes, my luck has been that bad).

Of course, playstyle matters. For instance, I primarily PvMP and endgame raid (BG). My RK needs every small percentage and number in his favor to succeed. Having optimum LIs very much matters in this regard.

Now if you are just a PvE carebear (and I'm not saying you are because frankly I don't know you), but if you are, you certainly can get by with dual-purpose hybrid LIs because the standard PvE content is so weak sauce it can be sleep-walked through for the most part.

Just the other night in GLFF I saw an RK who had been busting his butt to score a Symbol for a SA DPS stone finally get a SA stone crafted. His results? Lightning Stone, -Battle Attunement Power, -Healing Attunement Power, +1% Healing... LOL

Originally Posted by Overtone

Just the other night in GLFF I saw an RK who had been busting his butt to score a Symbol for a SA DPS stone finally get a SA stone crafted. His results? Lightning Stone, -Battle Attunement Power, -Healing Attunement Power, +1% Healing... LOL

This is why I won't waste a Symbol on my RK. For the generally terrible lottery that is the LI system, there's way too much of a risk of a bizarre / terrible combination like that.

If / when Fire ever becomes viable again, you could conceivably need 5 LIs to meet all your needs "perfectly" One stone for each of the trait lines, and one dps bag and one healing bag.

That's more than my burg or my LM require (although I don't play the LM much any more)

Yes some of our pool B legacies are kind of pointless and weak, but everyclass has a few of those. the point i was trying to make, when comparing us to other classes is we are lucky when it comes to our LI.

Yes we can get boned hard when looking for a second age dps stone and it gets healing legacies. But so does every other class. the only difference being if we want a dps stone and we get healing legs its absolutly useless. But if you play a hunter and get 3 **** Pool As you would be thinking the same thing, thats its a useless item. The only difference being they could use it if they really wanted to, it just wont be any good.

Now i dont know what legs people are looking for in there perfect stone, but i have to say we are probly the easiest class to get a perfect item.
The way the pools are distributed for everyhting excpet healing satchels makes it easy.
There is a few from pool A, and one or 2 from pool B. if you look at most other classes they need to get 4 pool As to have a decent item.we dont.

If you look at lightning DPS, these are the legs id want.
FOS pool A
Battle pool A
FOS crit pool B
Resist pool B
vivid targets Pool B.
Yes it may be hard to get all 3 pool Bs, but the last two would be just bonuses if you got the first 3.

Now a fire stone
Fire DOT pool A
Fire pool A
battle pool A
DF cd pool B
resist pool B

Now again, the resist isnt that important cus if you trait fire capstone u get the extra resist buff, and with df cd you can stack that buff.

Yes it might take time to get that starting ID u want, but when u do you need to be super unlucky not to get an item thats useable at a high lvl.

What would you change about that kind of set up. No other class has it so easy once they get the id there after. LMs need basically 4 or 5 pool As to have a good item, minis need a stack of pool As for a healing book. Captains need all pool As on there healing emblems. Etc Etc.

Before you start complaining how bad you have it, think how bad some other classes have it. On my LM i have gone thru at least 20 second age staffs trying to find one thats good, and everytime u get a decent start, i end up with really bad reforges and so its not good enuf. Rks should be lucky we have a range of legacies and that there is only a few for each of fire/lighting/healing.

I dont know what servers everyone plays on, but certainly on the more populated servers there is no shortage of 3rd ages on AH, there cheap, so what if you burn thru them, its certainly faster than lvling items to 30 just to find out its no that good.

And to overtone, im not a carebare player, i have 6 of the best legendary items with every other possibly desirable peice of gear in game on my rk.

out of the ppl i know, most would all agree, it is farily easy compared to other classes to get a good LI. And the best thing about RKs having such speciality is we dont need second ages.
We cna have a good third age with the main 4 legs for wateva were doing all upgraded. the only thing a second age gives us is an extra 1.5% healing/dmg. and if were super lucky and get all the legs it lets us spend a few more points upgraded a fate or somthing. And TBH if your in a position where that 1.5% makes a difference your doing somthing wrong anyway.

a good RK healing bag is hard to come by, they dont seem to drop often at least compared to stones, and they require mithril flakes to craft. so basically theres not a volume of them floating around. add in the best healing legacies are pool B and it can be a real pain.

stones by comparison are easy easy easy. so what if you have to have 2 pairs of LI's, you get 2 characters in one. no other class can be tier 1 dps and main healer on one toon.

in regards to other toons, guards have a 1h and tanking belt and then a 2h maybe with a OP belt as well, hunters can use a pve set and pvp set. cappys have weapons they use, and then buff sticks, champs have 1h's 2 hands dps runes, tanking runes, minis have healing and dps weapons and so on.

yea a healing satchel can be tricky, because the best healing legs are pool B, and i hope that gets looked at, but i dont want them to change our legacies or stones, jsut maybe look at switching mending verse and preludes pools.

However, getting satchels is easy, if your determined to have the best. u can get them from skirmishing, a few skirms and u can get a third age satchel.

I think most of us are more concerned about the satchels than the stones.

Originally Posted by ShammWoww

On a side note, I find it somewhat disappointing that many RKs in the feedback thread simply say "fix our bugs please" rather than taking some thought to outline some real improvements or changes.
I seem to be able to blow stuff up pretty well despite certain things not working as intended.

Disappointing that most RKs want what they already have fixed before they just hand us new things that are broken? Taking 1 of 3 spots to talk about bugs seems more useful than disappointing to me (the people who wrote fix our bugs 3 times is a different story). From what I saw, most people listed bugs as 1 and gave 2 other opinions on what the class needs.


As for the OP, I would really hate change to our legacies. The way it is now, we can actually get all the legacies for either damage or healing and get em all almost maxed. If all healing went to bag, and all dps went to stone, that would only nerf us because we would not be able to get anywhere close to having enough LI points to do much. All T6's and you will probably won't get anything past rank 5 if you balanced them all.

Originally Posted by IMAWIN

As for the OP, I would really hate change to our legacies. The way it is now, we can actually get all the legacies for either damage or healing and get em all almost maxed. If all healing went to bag, and all dps went to stone, that would only nerf us because we would not be able to get anywhere close to having enough LI points to do much. All T6's and you will probably won't get anything past rank 5 if you balanced them all.

Thankyou, thats what i have been trying to say in a round about way. there really isnt anything they can change without making a mess of it. Thats why im so concerend by the number of ppl asking for it to be changed. Its either dissapointing that so many ppl are missing the point of the RK class or concerning that so many ppl dont understand we have it good, and are one of the stronger classes when it comes to LI.

Totally agree, RK stones don't have it way worse than other classes in comparison. Healing satchels suck, yeah. But otherwise, I don't think it's any harder than champ/burg/captain.

I have a healing stone which I am very happy with, a DPS stone which I am 90% happy with (it's only third age but it took awhile to get, so I am not complaining,) but my big trouble has been the satchels.

Ideal DPS legacies:
-self-motivation power return
-scribe's spark
-writ of flame
I have ID'd endless lvl 65s and have yet to get a satchel up to lvl 30 with my top 3 legacies

Ideal Healing legacies:
-self-motivation power return
-writ of health
-pulses prelude to hope
-mending verse

I have a satchel with writ of health and self-motivation, but not the 2 others. I don't know why but it seems almost all of my IDs and reforges are a combination of healing and damage, which just doesn't work out.

Originally Posted by IGolbezI

Totally agree, RK stones don't have it way worse than other classes in comparison. Healing satchels suck, yeah. But otherwise, I don't think it's any harder than champ/burg/captain.

Just take a look at the Champ main main legacies Pool A:
Main Hand Pool A

* Feral/Savage Strikes Damage (new)
* Brutal Strikes Damage (new)
* Relentless Strikes Damage (new)
* Rend Damage
* Wild Attack Damage (new)
* Area of Effect Damage
* Critical Magnitude

Every one of those is tailored towards DPS. Granted, they may not all be of equal value, but they are all DPS tailored. Either DPS or tanking, a champ will use any of these. A good vs bad weapon usually depends more on tier and 2 vs 3 legacies and a person's tastes.

Now, look at the same table for RK stones:
Rune-stone Pool A

* Healing Attuned Skill Power Cost
* Battle Attuned Skill Power Cost
* Fury of Storm Damage
* Fire Skill Damage
* Healing
* Wrath of Flame Damage Over Time
* Healing Over Time

3/7 are healing. 4/7 are DPS. Totally different roles. If you're doing one, by design, the other is of minimal use to you. Also, with the current status, fire is not competitive with lightning by most accounts. So, the fire skills are not as of much use as lightning. So, for healing, you want 3/7 and the rest are garbage. For DPS, you want 2/7, 2/7 are so-so (fire) and 3/7 are useless.

How is a RK not worse off than a champ?

OK firstly champs have one function for there weapons. most other classes like grds/minis/lms/captains/burgs etc all have multiple 'types' of legacies depending on play style or trait style etc.

About the only classes that have one role and one role only is hunters/champs. Ok, im not sure if you have a champ or not, but i can tell you any champ worth there while, wont use a weapon without 2 out of the 3 main DPS legacies. Obviously each champ has there own opinion on whats better so i wont go to much into that but for me i wouldnt use a weapon unless i got 2 out of the 3 i liked best on id. Yes i can still use the weapon for DPS if i get any of the legacies but my dps is not going to be no where near what it could if i hit the big three.
Same can be said with hunters.

Now to RKs. RKs can still use any stone for DPS, regardless of legacies. Obviously it will suck and be no good compared to a good DPS stone, but its the same as a bad champ weapon, they can still use it, but a champ witha better weapon will do more DPS.

The benefit RKs have over champs/hunters and other classes is we dont need to go fishing for legacies nowhere near as much. We have a few legacies for each of fire/lighting/healing and apart from MV/prelude on satchels the pool distribution allows us to get all of the legacies for eahc one without having to get pool As on reforge. this is a huge advantage other some other classes.

We may have to 'waste' some stones/satchels if we dont get the id we want, but big deal. third ages are easy to acuire, and cheap to buy. it costs us no lost time Id a weapon and then throwing it out, or if it gets a good id, just not what were looking for we can sell it or pass it on to someone.
I would much rather waste 20 third ages on ID, than waste 20 and lvling them to 30 only to not hit that pool A we need on the last reforge. (which ive done several times on my mini books/lm staff and books, captain emblems ETC ETC.

Yes some ppl are incredible unlucky, and will never get that perfect stone there looking for, but messing with our legacies and pool distributtion isnt the answer. There is nothing they can do to make that situation any better.

Stating some ppls suggestions here

having stones for all dps, and satchels for all healing. terrible idea, it will effectively nerf both our healing and dps. as we wont have the same amount of legacies boosting each. BAD idea.

Having generic legacies that increase both lines. obviously the % values wont be as strong if it effects more skills. we are already a dstrong class, there not going to boost us, so they will nerf us thoguht legacies. BAD idea.

Changing legacy pools. as ive already stated we have a good pool distributuion. (barring MV/prelude). if we get the id we wont, we dont need to hit pool As. I garantee if they start messing with pool distribtuion we will end up with a situation where we will need 4 pool As or somthing to have a desirable weapon. Not a good idea.

Originally Posted by Niida

Just take a look at the Champ main main legacies Pool A:
Main Hand Pool A

* Feral/Savage Strikes Damage (new)
* Brutal Strikes Damage (new)
* Relentless Strikes Damage (new)
* Rend Damage
* Wild Attack Damage (new)
* Area of Effect Damage
* Critical Magnitude

Every one of those is tailored towards DPS. Granted, they may not all be of equal value, but they are all DPS tailored. Either DPS or tanking, a champ will use any of these. A good vs bad weapon usually depends more on tier and 2 vs 3 legacies and a person's tastes.

WRONG. a champ that will just any 3 legaices on there weapon cus there all dps is about as good as a rk with Fire DOT, FOS, and healing on there weapon. Any half decent champ will have in there own mind the 3 or so best legacies. and wont bother using a weapon that doesnt have at least 2 of these on id.

Comparing them the way you have just shows your lack of understanding.

Ask any champ (that knows what there talking about ) if they will use a weapon with rend, wild attack, and feral strikes. No, they wont, they all want crit, aoe dmg, brutal or relentless. and wont use a weapon unless it ids with crit and at least one other of the main ones. And on top of that, most champs will carry around a one hander and a two hander, so in fact, they need to get 2 good LI. kind of like how we need a dps and healing stone.

Your obviously a hunter, so ill look at them next, No self respecting hunter will use a weapon that ids with quick shot slow, ranged evade modifier, and block modifier. They all want the crits and mercy shot cd/power costs. Having a wepaon with the evade/block or QS slow does pratically nothing for your dps. neither does the power cost legacies.

Now every other class:
minis have healing/dps legacies
grds have tanking/overpower legacies
lms have dps/support(range,healing,debuff etc)
captains have dps/healing and thena bunch of useless cd legs.
burgs have DPS/tricks etc
wardens have tanking/healing/dps

Are you seeing the picture here. Champs are really the only class that has just one type of legacy. but they also really only have one role. I know they can tank but they dont really have a specific set of traits/skills for tanking. The only thing they do is DPS, so of course there legacies are going to be dps on there weapon.

RKs are lucky in that when we get the id with the legs we want, we dont have to go fishing for pool As on reforge and we really only need to hit one desirable pool B on reforge to get a decent weapon.

Yes we may burn though items on ID, but its certainly quicker than having to lvl a bunch of items that could turn out ok if i get x pool A leg on reforge etc, like so many other classes are faced with, and we need to carry around a bunch of weapons,( so do most classes that like to be at their best in different situations) but so what. on the character creation screen it says its an advanced character. We have many useful skills, and our legacies are great and enable us to set up to do some pretty amazing things. and achieve things no other classes can hope to do. If we mess with these in any way, there is 0 chance we will come out better for it.

I am aware the LI system is not perfect, but the flaws of the system are not limited to our class, it effects everyone. The fact is we are one of the luckier classes, both in terms of the ease in which we can get a decent item, and also what our legacies do.
Look at champs, yes there weapon is all dps legs, but there rune doesnt do much for there dps. we can effectivly have a DPS rune, that gives us a big boost to dps, and also a satchel that gives us a big boost to dps. look at minis. there sword gives them shorter cds for rezzes and big heals etc, (they can still really only use it once a boss) and there book gives them the healing bonuses. our stone and satchel gives us healing bonuses.

See where im going with this. We are better of the way we are than any possible change could make us.

Now i know this will sound arrogant, but i just dont care, im sick of people that dont understand the class, our abilties, how strong rks are, how easy we have it etc. complaining about the class, and saying this is too hard, or this is broken and needs fixing or this needs changing. No it doesnt. The only thing they need to do is address all of the current bugs/issues with things not working as intended (4 set trait bonues etc)

So please stop asking for stupid things to do with our legacies, your going to end up getting us nerfed through our items all to save an inv spot and make it easier to be a cookie cutter generic half arsed toon. If thats what u want go play a champ or hunter where its all the same, all the time.

Originally Posted by Bradd

I think most of us are more concerned about the satchels than the stones.

I've a lot more trouble with stones personally. You really don't need better then a 3rd age satchel (maybe for healing), but a 2nd age dps stone helps some. The rarity of getting a decent stone while IDing/maxing it out means most of us could ID several before getting a decent one. Then you have to consider stats on the stone. Personally I've had bad luck and have yet to get a reforge on a 2nd age stone with FoS crit even though I've had several second age stones, let alone get one with FoS damage and FoS crit. Then try adding a few other good legs and some decent stats and its the type of thing you won't achieve in 1 in 100 IDs.

It's actually kinda left me wishing for the old system back. Since I did manage to get like 4 FA and 2 2nd age sets for solo(pvp)/fire/heals. That was likely just the luck of the draw though.

So I really hope we get a new system, preferable one with way less or no randomness. It would be nice if we just got a stone and then you unlocked a quest from some LI legacy master guy to go kill 200 (or x) fire grims then upon the completion of the quest he grants the stone of your choice the +fire damage legacy. Which fills up one of your seven legacy slots. Plus it might make your item feel more legendary since it has some history now, its not item x I pulled off the watcher. I'm sure all of us would rather spend 10-20 hours grinding for what you consider the perfect LI, then 10-20 hours grinding for a good LI for half of us and the other half left with a decent one.

I really have top whole heartedly agree with Vron. The legacies are fine as they are (besides PtH/MV). We have legacies that are ultra useful or at least kinda usefull. Look at some of the stinkers around and you will have to agree there.

My main is a warden and OMG are most of them useless, and half of the useful ones are only really useful in the moors. They get the individual legacies per skill not the nice big blanket Fos damage or CTW damage or healing +. Imagine needing Ca damage, EC damage, EC crit, SS damage. You would never get an uber setup like ya can now.

And mister(or ms) westernesse. You want to be able to essentially barter for the exact legacies you want? So then even the noob players can throw only a little effort into their weapons and have the best LI's available. I think thats the worst LOTRO idea i have heard. Might as well just abolish the whole LI idea cos thats what ur asking for. Basically pre set LI legacies. BOOOOOO

Originally Posted by Niida

How is a RK not worse off than a champ?

edit: I didn't read the above posts, which basically explain what I wrote, and I'm sure no one wants to read another wall of text

As Tartare said, a champion isn't just going to take any three legacies. Sure they do DPS, but you aren't going to make a stone your fire stone without both fire legacies, are you? Or a lightning stone without both lightning legacies?

Same with a champ. Who wants an LI without crit, AoE, and brutal/remorseless at the very least? Not to mention that wild attack is a very good portion of your DPS, and is also in pool A. ALL of those legacies are in pool A, and BF CD is in pool B. Getting a good RK stone requires three legacies only. Getting a good champion's sword/axe/whatever requires at the very least three, but imo, it's more like five. Four is a good medium

Maybe I'm just an LI perfectionist.

Originally Posted by Westernesse

I've a lot more trouble with stones personally.

Ouch I've had the exact opposite. My RK isn't exactly my best alt lol, I've been through about 30-35 satchels, still haven't found what I want :/ but I have two great DPS stones, the lightning one is perfect, fire one is just missing one legacy, both came shortly after I hit 65.

Originally Posted by IGolbezI

Ouch I've had the exact opposite. My RK isn't exactly my best alt lol, I've been through about 30-35 satchels, still haven't found what I want :/ but I have two great DPS stones, the lightning one is perfect, fire one is just missing one legacy, both came shortly after I hit 65.

It took me 494 stone id's to get my three stones. Maybe 20'ish for the lightning stone, 150's for the fire, and the final 300'ish for the darn healing stone (I took 17 stones that ID'd with all three Pool A's to 31 looking for the Pool B Glorious Duration, nada till the 18th stone) The good news is, decon'ing nearly 500 stones at lvl 2-11 did wonders for my patience and relics =/.

It only took me 8 bags to get my dps satchel. I'm not bothering with a healing satchel. I can't find the points in a third age to max out all the healing legs I want, as well as max out the outgoing heal.

Originally Posted by Sandgorgan

I can't find the points in a third age to max out all the healing legs I want, as well as max out the outgoing heal.

Just grab a lvl60 first or second age. It'll take a couple tries, but my current lvl59 FA bag (never upgraded) has max'd WoH, MV, EftA, Self-Motivation, Heal Rating plus a rank 7 or 8 DNFTD cooldown and a few points in prelude. The points are there, the question is, can you afford to not have relics? I only want the relic for the crit rating, but since I'm already capped, with a >6% dev, I see alot more through-put by having the legacies I want.

As far as the topic at hand, swap pools on Mending Verse and Pulses Prelude for a start. Mending Verse is the 1 must-have legacy for healing, and Pulses Prelude is a joke, very few people use this skill enough or in a way that you would want to make sure you got it on ID, instead of picking it up later in poolB. I would swap Word of Exaltation and Writ of Health as well, but not a deal-breaker.

Originally Posted by Westernesse

I've a lot more trouble with stones personally. You really don't need better then a 3rd age satchel (maybe for healing), but a 2nd age dps stone helps some. The rarity of getting a decent stone while IDing/maxing it out means most of us could ID several before getting a decent one. Then you have to consider stats on the stone. Personally I've had bad luck and have yet to get a reforge on a 2nd age stone with FoS crit even though I've had several second age stones, let alone get one with FoS damage and FoS crit. Then try adding a few other good legs and some decent stats and its the type of thing you won't achieve in 1 in 100 IDs.

It's actually kinda left me wishing for the old system back. Since I did manage to get like 4 FA and 2 2nd age sets for solo(pvp)/fire/heals. That was likely just the luck of the draw though.

So I really hope we get a new system, preferable one with way less or no randomness. It would be nice if we just got a stone and then you unlocked a quest from some LI legacy master guy to go kill 200 (or x) fire grims then upon the completion of the quest he grants the stone of your choice the +fire damage legacy. Which fills up one of your seven legacy slots. Plus it might make your item feel more legendary since it has some history now, its not item x I pulled off the watcher. I'm sure all of us would rather spend 10-20 hours grinding for what you consider the perfect LI, then 10-20 hours grinding for a good LI for half of us and the other half left with a decent one.

I understand where you are coming from. I guess it is just a matter of luck. I have two pretty good dps stones right now and my healing stone is OK, but nothing to right home about. My satchels are not great at all. Part of it may be that Stones are so much more common. I rarely see decent 65 3rd Age Satchels on the AH.

I buy a lot of stones off the AH and indentify them, if they are good I keep them for later. If not, I level them to level 2 and decon them. (I generally go out with 25 stones once a week and spend half an hour leveling each one to level 2 and deconning them for relics.)

Right now, I am using a 65 3rd Age Stone with:
+21 Fate, +79 ICPR, +130 Tact Crit
- Battle Cost, +Fury Damage, +Fury Crit, - Penetrate Resist, +Will

I have a another 65 3rd age stone I am leveling with:
+21 Agility, +21 Fate, +79 ICPR
-Battle Cost, +Fire Damage, +Fire DoT Damage, +Fury Damage, +Fury Crit, +CoW debuff



I would never make a 2nd Age Stone or Satchel right now, however, since the odds of getting something useable is so low.

Originally Posted by Westernesse

So I really hope we get a new system, preferable one with way less or no randomness.

Agreed. The whole "this class has it worse than that class" debate misses the point. As an RK, I frankly don't care about the state of other classes and LIs. I just know ours is borked.

When you bring in other classes and their legacy situations, it simply becomes clear that the entire system is at fault. Turbine is talking an LI revamp in 2011. The random factor has to go. We shall see. I just hope they tweak the issue in the meantime so I can find a stone worth a darn.

I think the problem comes from the RKs greatest strength, the fact that we are top tier helears and dps. So complaining too much about having to get 4 LIs is akin to complaining about the fact that we can choose from two great styes of play. The only thing I complain about in this case is that there is no way to unslot LIs from your 6 max and level some others instead of being stuck having 2 healing LIs that are at max level when you are looking for a dps weapon.

my 2 cents.

I would be happy if they let you remove one (and only one) Legacy and replace it with another of your choosing. That would remove some, but not all of the ransomness of LIs, but still not make it too easy to get the "perfect" LI.

Originally Posted by Overtone

Agreed. The whole "this class has it worse than that class" debate misses the point. As an RK, I frankly don't care about the state of other classes and LIs. I just know ours is borked.

When you bring in other classes and their legacy situations, it simply becomes clear that the entire system is at fault. Turbine is talking an LI revamp in 2011. The random factor has to go. We shall see. I just hope they tweak the issue in the meantime so I can find a stone worth a darn.

Were not missing the point by comparing us to other classes. were spot on the money. Becasue ppl wernt saying change the LI system, they were saying change our legacies. Our legacies and pool distribitution (minus MV/prelude) are good.
Yes the whole system is flawed. But in the ask the RK thread, ppl were suggesting things like, having generic multipurpose legacies that effect both our healing and dps, having all dps on stone and all heal on satchel and other ideas along these lines. Thats what i have the problem with. None of these approaches is going to fix the problem with the LI random game, all they are going to do is effectivly nerf the class through gear that has become gerenic instead of specialised and tailored for one role. This is what im against. Any change to our legacies/pool distribution/items in the current system will either make it harder to get all the legs we want, or the finished LI wont be as strong.

So no were not missing the point, ppl are just to narrow sighted to see that we have to work in the system they gave us, and out of that system we have it good compared to others so why change that. Changing our legaices/legacy distribition isnt going to fix the total random nature of LIs. Im sick of hearing i cant find a good X or it took me X number of ids. big deal, thats the systems fault, not our classes legacies or pools. everyclass has to put up with that. we should be lucky that we dont have any gimp pool As and only one a few gimp pool Bs

So yes, they need to look at the system as a whole, which they are going to do, but messing with our legacies is a bad idea and wont fix anything. So please stop pushing for it.

Originally Posted by Tartare

Were not missing the point by comparing us to other classes.

Yes you are.

Originally Posted by Tartare

Our legacies and pool distribitution (minus MV/prelude) are good.

No they're not.

Originally Posted by Tartare

ppl are just to narrow sighted to see that we have to work in the system they gave us,

Hardly. Peeps know the system is borked because we have already been doing just that for almost a year now (not including MoM because there were no Pool A & B differentiations).

Originally Posted by Tartare

Changing our legaices/legacy distribition isnt going to fix the total random nature of LIs.

This is true. But it sure will help in the meantime until Turbine rectifies the random debacle of LIs.

Originally Posted by Tartare

So yes, they need to look at the system as a whole, which they are going to do, but messing with our legacies is a bad idea and wont fix anything. So please stop pushing for it.

Your arguments were weak and not persuasive enough. I will continue to push for legacy consolidation no matter how many walls of text you write. Sorry.

firstly everything u just qouted. the opposite of that.

lol you dont have any argument, you just say consolidating our legacies will make it better.

Well it wont, how can it. no class has it easy with the LI system. the system is at fail not our legacies. read the other walls of text for my opinion on how we have it better than most classes.

Just how is consolidating our legacies going to make it easier or better for us exactly. i would like to hear this. I really would like to see how ppl think there suggestions will help us other than it just will cus thats all im hearing. you have nothing.

I dont know anyone on BW that has gone thru any ridicoulous number of items to get somthing good. yes they may keep trying for that perect item, but they certainly have not had a ridicoulous amount of unusable ids. And i am going to assume this is the case with most RKs.

Now the ppl that are complaining they had 500 or so ids, your in the minority or you have unrealistic expectaions of what to use.

Originally Posted by seafoodbasket

Just how is consolidating our legacies going to make it easier or better for us exactly.

Separate DPS and Heal pools would be a very simple and nice start. Would be enough really until Turbine removed the randomness altogether.

Originally Posted by seafoodbasket

I dont know anyone on BW that has gone thru any ridicoulous number of items to get somthing good. yes they may keep trying for that perect item, but they certainly have not had a ridicoulous amount of unusable ids. And i am going to assume this is the case with most RKs.

Unusable is not the issue. Not everyone plays this game to be a mediocre carebear.

And your assumption about most RKs is obviously wrong: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=346025

Originally Posted by seafoodbasket

Now the ppl that are complaining they had 500 or so ids, your in the minority or you have unrealistic expectaions of what to use.

Who are you to say that someone's expectations are unrealistic? I think it's perfectly realistic that someone should expect to be able to obtain and maximize a dedicated DPS or Heal LI that perfectly fits their playstyle in a reasonable amount of time. It's been almost eight months and the feedback from most RKs regarding the issue is frustration. But all these folks are unrealistic. LOL

Originally Posted by Sandgorgan

It took me 494 stone id's to get my three stones. Maybe 20'ish for the lightning stone, 150's for the fire, and the final 300'ish for the darn healing stone (I took 17 stones that ID'd with all three Pool A's to 31 looking for the Pool B Glorious Duration, nada till the 18th stone) The good news is, decon'ing nearly 500 stones at lvl 2-11 did wonders for my patience and relics =/.

It only took me 8 bags to get my dps satchel. I'm not bothering with a healing satchel. I can't find the points in a third age to max out all the healing legs I want, as well as max out the outgoing heal.

494? What legacies were you going for on each including the DPS satchel?

It's just that I have a hard time believing you couldn't find (hell, even buy off the AH) a stone until your 20th with FoS damage and power cost. I see those all the time at the AH. There are only 2 legacies in pool A pertaining to lightning. Fire I can see you having a much harder time finding one with power cost and both fire legacies.

But onto the satchels. Like I said above, what legacies are you going for on a DPS satchel? Are you using a seperate one for both fire and lightning? What would be an acceptable healing satchel?

It's weird that your healing stone took so much more time than your fire stone. You only need four legacies, did you just get extremely terrible luck?

Seperate DPS and heal pools. That didnt really explain anything at all. implemented how? as has been suggested some ppl asked for all dps on stone and all heal on satchel. is that what you mean? this isnt going to make it any easier. Its just going to make us weaker in that instead of potential having to hit 3 or 4legs top to have a good dps item, were now gona be stuck with trying to get 5 or 6 to maintain the lvl were at now.

If we can choose before Id if we want to make it healing or dps, that would be a good idea, but being realistic, thats not going to be implemented just for us, as most classes have different types of legacies. and any change like this would be rather major and would be more to do with them looking at the whole LI system and more than just looking at rk legacies.

And no, just because u link to a post that is designed for ppl to complain doesnt mean that represents the RK community. just look at how many RKs replied from BW compared to how many there actually are. i can tell you i dont know anyone that has burned thru such a large number to get a good item. ( and yes for the most part me and my friends are the 'elite' players of the server, not a bunch of carebares)

And yes there is a difference between a good item and being unrealistic. Obviously the more you want from the weapon, the lower the margin for error. so yes sometimes people can be unrealistic. I mean im unrealistic on my LM. my ideal staff would have 5 pool As, and a specific pool B and also good base stats. Now i have a good staff, but i want better, but i know the chance of me getting what i want is so damn low i dont come on here and complain that ive used upward of 30second age staffs and literally hundreds of third ages. i just stick with what i have and keep trying and hoping i get lucky.

And i find it funny that you talk about being a carebare, when your the one basically saying it too hard, make it easier. Do you want a hug.

Originally Posted by Overtone

Agreed. The whole "this class has it worse than that class" debate misses the point. As an RK, I frankly don't care about the state of other classes and LIs. I just know ours is borked.

When you bring in other classes and their legacy situations, it simply becomes clear that the entire system is at fault. Turbine is talking an LI revamp in 2011. The random factor has to go. We shall see. I just hope they tweak the issue in the meantime so I can find a stone worth a darn.

Ya pretty much. The system needs to be changed. How is up to turbine, but I would prefer a move away from the random category and into the time spent earning something good category.

Originally Posted by Treadly

You want to be able to essentially barter for the exact legacies you want?

As I see it the LI system has the following requirements:

1. Time intensive
2. not everyone has the same thing
3. It gets more powerful over time
4. customization of your character
5. keeps players busy, so they don't quit the game

My preferred system would basically be time intensive to get a desirable item to you want. Yes it would basically use some variation on the barter/rep/quest grind systems. You can pick your poison on how its implemented exactly. I like the idea of starting with a blank slate of no legacies and your LI earns the legacies as it travels with you. Keep most of the legacies we have right now, but say double or triple the total amount of legacies, with all those legacies being good. Its not to hard to come up with compelling legacies. Modify aspects of commonly used skills or skill lines (ie damage, duration, # of targets, cd, range, # of pips, etc). It can also modify unique aspects of the class (ie increase/decrease much a skill/skill line attunes an rk, legacy that allows you to put up multiple types of an elemental based skill at once, (so r1 means fall to frost + fall to fire, r2 means all 3), etc).

When you put on 7 legacies of say like 40-50 good legacies, your going to have a LI that is both satisfying to you and a lot less similar to another rk's LI then it would be under the current system. The only problem is balancing it, which I would argue is not much of a problem since its available to everyone who plays your class anyway. Maybe balancing it when comparing 2 classes doing the same role would be a problem.

Basically I would prefer it so that time spent (prob 10-30 hours (turbines call on how much time it should be) in total per LI) = a somewhat unique that is satisfying to me personally. Instead of that same amount of time spent meaning I'm sometimes satisfied with my LI and sometimes I find I've wasted x hours and I'm still back where I started.

Originally Posted by Treadly

So then even the noob players can throw only a little effort into their weapons and have the best LI's available. I think thats the worst LOTRO idea i have heard. Might as well just abolish the whole LI idea

I think you missed the 10-20 hours per LI in my original post. I'm a firm believer that this is true of the players people would call noobs: as they play they become better. So at some point they will stop being a noob. So if they just spent 60 to 120 to 180 hours at the level cap grinding for 6 awesome LIs, are they really still a noob? Not to mention how long they spent grinding that gear, leveling, and pvmping. Even if they are still are a noob after all that and your hope for them learning anything is approaching 0, well won't they be a noob and not pick the best legacies when given a choice of 40-50 legacies?

Even then with 40-50 legacies, who is to say that there is a set of the 'best LI's available'. It would prob vary based on play style and what your currently doing. Maybe there is an all around best one, but it would be a lot of work even for the best rk to find as there is so many different combos. Regardless I like this better then me and a 'noob' each having an equal odds of getting the best LI.

Originally Posted by IGolbezI

494? What legacies were you going for on each including the DPS satchel?

It's just that I have a hard time believing you couldn't find (hell, even buy off the AH) a stone until your 20th with FoS damage and power cost. I see those all the time at the AH. There are only 2 legacies in pool A pertaining to lightning. Fire I can see you having a much harder time finding one with power cost and both fire legacies.

But onto the satchels. Like I said above, what legacies are you going for on a DPS satchel? Are you using a seperate one for both fire and lightning? What would be an acceptable healing satchel?

It's weird that your healing stone took so much more time than your fire stone. You only need four legacies, did you just get extremely terrible luck?

I agree on the lightning stone, it should have been easy. I had so many of them with Battle attuned and FoS damage, that I only took them up to 10 if they didn't get the crit multi or penetrate on the first reforge, I'd nerf the stone at 11 and start with the next one, just didn't want to waste the time to get it up to 20 or 30.

DPS satchel has Scribe's, Essence, Writ (all ID'd at Pool A), chilling cd and shocking touch resist. I used to use a separate one for fire and lightning but now I just use this one; It's not perfect but it's good enough.

Acceptable healing satchel would be:
Mending
Writ of Health
Words of Exaltation
Motivation
I have all these maxed on my first ager. So I just can't see:
1 - rolling all these legs in the new system
2 - having enough points to max out all of them on a 65 third ager

Lol, as for my luck. Every single LI (with potential) that I get to lvl 10 gets renamed "RNG Hates Me".

Originally Posted by Sandgorgan

I agree on the lightning stone, it should have been easy. I had so many of them with Battle attuned and FoS damage, that I only took them up to 10 if they didn't get the crit multi or penetrate on the first reforge, I'd nerf the stone at 11 and start with the next one, just didn't want to waste the time to get it up to 20 or 30.

DPS satchel has Scribe's, Essence, Writ (all ID'd at Pool A), chilling cd and shocking touch resist. I used to use a separate one for fire and lightning but now I just use this one; It's not perfect but it's good enough.

Acceptable healing satchel would be:
Mending
Writ of Health
Words of Exaltation
Motivation
I have all these maxed on my first ager. So I just can't see:
1 - rolling all these legs in the new system
2 - having enough points to max out all of them on a 65 third ager

Lol, as for my luck. Every single LI (with potential) that I get to lvl 10 gets renamed "RNG Hates Me".

thats too bad, ive gotten FOS crit multi at 30 before. im assuming you have something half way decent to run around with while searching for the perfect LIs?

Originally Posted by FailSauce

thats too bad, ive gotten FOS crit multi at 30 before. im assuming you have something half way decent to run around with while searching for the perfect LIs?

Oh yeah, before this cursed expansion came out, I had all first age stones for lightning, fire, and healing. When Smirkwood released, I did the math while I was in beta and knew that I would have to start trading them out at 65. Started with lightning, since it (should have been) was the easiest to get the correct Legacy's.
I think that might be at the heart of the issues with rk's gripes about legacy. Alot of the Moria level capped rk's had beautiful 1st/2nd age stones and bags, if they were like me, that only left one slot open to grind the new LI (5 LI slots for storm/fire/heal stones and dps/heal bag) it feels like it takes much more time when your only grinding one LI looking for that pool B legacy. My champ had 4 slots open, so I'd load him up with 4 potential replacements and forget about it for a day or two until all 4 had to reforge. Usually, something good would pop out of the 4 reforges and at least it would feel like progress. With my rk, I was constantly going back to the forge master (one LI being fed ixp goes up quick) and constantly being dissappointed.