Thread: How welcomed are Captains to endgame PvE Groups/Raids? Also, how are War Minstrels?

Heyas folks, I'm new to LOTRO and I'm a big fan of hybrid melee support classes. So far Captain seem to be the Jack-of-all-trades melee class and War Minstrels have peaked my fancy as well. I enjoy healing but hate main healing, and I enjoy dpsing but don't care about being the top dog, "BOOM HEADSHOT", PWNAGE guy.

So yeah, my question is how welcomed are Capts in the endgame and how are they at soloing? Also could a War Minstrel switch out of Warspeech and main heal effectively in an endgame group/raid?

Captains are very highly welcomed in endgame. They are considered among the slower soloers though because of relatively low DPS.

I'm not aware of a recognized "war minstrel" group role, although it's certainly done occasionally. Like a Rune-Keeper, you will ideally want to be traited for healing as a minstrel prior to leaving to heal an instance, but it depends on the difficulty of the situation. You can get by without heal-traiting, and you can also trait a hybrid build if you like. Also, to switch out of war-speech now applies a healing penalty for 10 seconds or thereabouts, which is a pain.

If you want to be able to be a real DPS role, but still be able to backup heal, and moreover only choose to heal when you want to (just tell them you're DPS-traited), then Rune-Keeper is that class, not minstrel. They have less support abilities than minstrel and captain, though, and also negligible melee.

captains are in high demand for endgame material; many fights are much, much, much easier with a couple of captains.

DPS minstrel is not welcome in endgame groups. If a group wants dps, it takes a real dps class. Minstrels, in dps mode, run out of power rapidly and their best attacks go on long cooldowns. They are very welcome and in demand to heal the hard content, but they are simply not good enough at dps for raiding. Now, a casual group, a 6 man or smaller group or a raiding group that knows the content well and has reached the point where a given raid is no longer hard for them, those may take a dps min, but at that point, its not really "endgame" anymore, is it?

A minst with all warspeech traits can heal just fine in 6 man or easier content. However they should probably have other traits for raid healing. Things like fellowships heart instead of the dps attack legendary, or rally, instead of call to war legendary trait, or maybe a couple of blue traits, to reduce power costs in very long fights, that sort of thing really make a difference in a tough fight!

Its very easy to retrait in this game, can become costly if you do it too much, but its easy enough to swap in a few traits to heal a raid and swap back for the rest of the week's solo work. I guess, in a nutshell, you can heal anything except the hardest content with damage traits, and for that harder content, you absolutely need to swap in some healing/support traits.

War minstrels may or may not be welcome, it depends on the group. If you've got a hardcore elite group who does gear checks, the sort who feel that everyone must be perfect, then they most likely won't be welcome. DPS minstrels are certainly not that helpful in endgame raids.

However, in casual instance runs, PUGs, and what not, a lot of people don't mind at all. This is the larger group of players I think, and they're happy just to fill up the fellowship. Gear checks are relatively rare, and relatively unimportant outside of the few raids that exist.

However you need to tell the group that you don't plan on healing. If they already have a healer, then this is fine; if they don't have a healer there will be pressure on you to heal. The biggest drawback to a DPS minstrel is the power drain. Minstrels have burst DPS, which means they can do a lot of damage quickly but they can not keep that damage rate going. This can be a serious drawback in long fights, which you typically find in instances. A more typical DPS class can sustain a high damage rate over very long fights. Though in a three-person instance often the DPS from a minstrel is more important than healing. (you're going to generate very high threat as a DPS minstrel too, which isn't good)

As for traiting.. Again the picky groups may want you to trait specifically for a build, but most players won't care. There is a healing trait line, but most minstrels who group go for the buffing line instead since the healing line is very lack luster. You will be able to heal extremely well even when traited for damage dealing. In a raid though, where just a little bit of change can mean the difference between success or failure, then traiting for a raid will make more sense.

Just remember that raids are a very small (but vocal) part of this game. If you want to do raids then you'll probably have to follow the stereotypical builds. If you don't raid then you can ignore a lot of the "you must do it this way" advice and still participate with groups.

If you really want to be an end-game damage dealer class while able to switch and be a main healer, then rune keeper is probably the better choice.

Since I didn't notice anyone mention it, I will!


War Minstrels are pretty nice out in the moors (PvMP). Not sure if you consider that endgame, but they are one of my favorite classes for that reason. They are one of the better classes solo out there and are also great in groups. Most PvMP minnies run DPS mode.

It's true that in most hard instances minstrels are main healers. For PvMP though, they are very versatile and do great DPS. You may want to consider that a lot of people spend their "endgame" time out in the Ettenmoors, so to me it is a big part of endgame!

I favorited this thread a couple years back, and I was wondering if any new patches/updates have changed the opinions already posted here. Especially interested in War Minis.

Originally Posted by Tenison

I favorited this thread a couple years back, and I was wondering if any new patches/updates have changed the opinions already posted here. Especially interested in War Minis.

No, I don't believe any of this has changed. When grouping, Minstrels are generally wanted for their heals. If anything, the latest changes to Minstrels makes them much more desired for their heals and combat buffs. Minstrels have a new "stance", Melody, which is a hybrid that works in groups when healing needs are light and Minstrel DPS is wanted... and the Minstrel can quickly drop out of that into a full-healing stance that rewards the Minstrel for throwing non-heals as well as healing skills.

LotRO is not WoW. Hybrid classes are valued for the skills that are PART of their hybrid nature and don't need to try to play roles they aren't designed for. I think you will have more fun if you approached this with a more open mind.

Captains are very highly welcomed in endgame. They are considered among the slower soloers though because of relatively low DPS.

^ Above is correct.

You won't have any problem finding groups on a Captain. Captains are THE ultimate emergency backup machine. If the tank goes down, in-combat rez. If the Minstrel/RK goes down, in-combat rez. If the healer is getting behind, backup healing. If the fellowship is taking up too much damage, mark for returning morale and/or In Harm's Way (takes 50+% of fellowships damage). Buff the fellowship to make them all even better! What more could a raid ask for?

I love the Captain!

Yeah, the specific reason I started a captain was for end game stuff. However, I've noticed one things. Most groups only need one captain. A 6 man might be 1-tank, 1 healer, 1 captain, 3-DPS/Whatever. If your group doesn't mind filling in the "whatever" spot with a Captain than you're fine. However, most of the time those last 3 spots get hunter, champs, LM, and RK.

Originally Posted by Widoch

Yeah, the specific reason I started a captain was for end game stuff. However, I've noticed one things. Most groups only need one captain. A 6 man might be 1-tank, 1 healer, 1 captain, 3-DPS/Whatever. If your group doesn't mind filling in the "whatever" spot with a Captain than you're fine. However, most of the time those last 3 spots get hunter, champs, LM, and RK.

That's not just true of Captains. You'll find groups only want one tank, or one main healer, or one burglar. Fortunately, most content other than the very most difficult Tier 2 stuff is forgiving of group makeup.

A raid will generally want one captain per fellowship... which is 2 - 4 captains depending on how big the raid is.

Originally Posted by Shukar

That's not just true of Captains. You'll find groups only want one tank, or one main healer, or one burglar. Fortunately, most content other than the very most difficult Tier 2 stuff is forgiving of group makeup.

A raid will generally want one captain per fellowship... which is 2 - 4 captains depending on how big the raid is.

True. Typically one per fellowship (up to 4, if it's a 24 man raid).

Generally you can't go wrong filling that extra "spot" with a Captain.

Originally Posted by Shukar

That's not just true of Captains. You'll find groups only want one tank, or one main healer, or one burglar. Fortunately, most content other than the very most difficult Tier 2 stuff is forgiving of group makeup.

A raid will generally want one captain per fellowship... which is 2 - 4 captains depending on how big the raid is.

Didn't I say that exact same thing?

Originally Posted by I just said

Most groups only need one captain. A 6 man might be 1-tank, 1 healer, 1 captain, 3-DPS/Whatever.

Originally Posted by Widoch

Didn't I say that exact same thing?

Not really. A raid is a single group, but wants multiple captains. Your quote was most definitely talking about a single fellowship... in a raid, you might have, say, all the DPS in one fellowship and the crowd-control in another.

I think some groups don't know what joy it is to have multiple captains. You can have more than one mark up at a time, more than one standard down, and there are lots of buffs and in-combat rezzes for everyone. The more captains there are, the more people can be shield/blade/song-brother'd. A group with 2 Captains and an LM doesn't need a main healer for most content.

Originally Posted by Tenison

I favorited this thread a couple years back, and I was wondering if any new patches/updates have changed the opinions already posted here. Especially interested in War Minis.

Both classes have changed a lot recently.
While its still pretty hard to find a group on a warspeech minstrel, I must say the addition of the harmony stance did the class much good. Nowadays with the exception of the really hard stuff, I do everything on my minstrel in harmony, traited a combination of yellow and red traits, with the legendaries FH, rally and cry of the wizards.
And while Im still techically the main healer, it really doesnt feel like I am. Im just busy blowing stuff up. All I do is ballad-ballad-ballad-anthem of ??? (the one that gives noble cause)-coda-herald strike X4.
With sometimes cry of the chorus and noble cause ofc for even more herald strikes, and cry of the valar and cry of the wizards every time its off cooldown. See my mind is set totally at doing damage..but most of the time all those herald strikes, coda's and cry of the valars is more than enough to keep everyone topped up..how awesome is that
Had a blast in foundry with that, works like a charm in Draigoch too. Havent been to Orthanc yet with mins, but I swapped to the standard 5 blue traits with capstone for the roots of Fangorn..that instance doesn't allow fun :/

Captains are in a pretty good spot too. Forget all about what you heard concerning no dps and all that nonsense. Im running 5 red with master of war all the time nowadays, full dagor set for good measure, crit chance just under 25% now, PA targets legacy maxed out. I crit soo damn often, I aoe like mad..I starting to feel like a full blown champion nowadays. Well, almost
And ofc its not just my dps thats through the roof, because I crit so often I constantly get rallying cries too, which account for a large chunk of the aoe healing in the group. imo the days of HoH are over

I've actually had the privilege of running Saruman as a War-Speech Minstrel with the understanding that at the start of Phase 5, I would be dropping out of War-Speech to help healing during the onslaught. I think people who discount War-Speech Minstrels out of hand are selling themselves short. If you've enough healing Minstrels/RKs/Captains already, try letting your favorite Mini come along in War-Speech, you may be pleasently surprised! (And we certainly won't complain!)

Originally Posted by Widoch

Didn't I say that exact same thing?

I was agreeing, not correcting :P

Thanks all, guess I'll try Lotro again, let's hope third times the charm.

Originally Posted by Widoch

However, I've noticed one things. Most groups only need one captain. A 6 man might be 1-tank, 1 healer, 1 captain, 3-DPS/Whatever. If your group doesn't mind filling in the "whatever" spot with a Captain than you're fine. However, most of the time those last 3 spots get hunter, champs, LM, and RK.

This varies on the groups. Some group leaders are strictly going by recipes and if you're not in the recipe you don't get invited. Even for easy content. Ie, someone was asking forever for a lore master for Roots of Fangorn. While I see the usefulness of lore master there I have never actually run it with a lore master and it is clearly doable without one. Similarly I have done Foundry with 4 (four!) captains and no tank. Many groups are very open to who they invite, you just use different strategies depending on who you have with you.

One captain is good, two captains are better. Honest. Three captain is stretching things, and four or five is downright silly. But six captains in a six person group is just sheer awesomeness.

If you run across a group that is struggling for an hour for one particular class, it's probably not the group you wanted to be invited to anyway.