I've seen quite a few requests on these forums for a pronunciation guide for names in the game, and while the awesome Guide to Names covers definitions of common Sindarin words, as well as the pronunciation of some letters in Sindarin, I haven't seen any guide covering pronunciation of words in this game. So I thought I'd create one, and add definitions for fun.
This is meant to be written in layman's terms. No IPA spelling will be used since most people do not understand it, but rather "pronunciation spelling" is used, even though it is not 100% perfect. Thank you to users Aegya, Schirf, lafeeverte, Reniannen, and lf2536 for the assistance thus far.
Pronunciation of the sound 'dh' should be a soft 'th', like in 'these'; 'ahy' is meant to sound like the English word "I"; 'ooi' is pronounced like the 'ui' in 'ruin'; 'ih' is meant to sound like the sound 'i' in 'sick', though depending on your accent it may come out sounding like 'ee' in some words; in Sindarin words, 'kh' is pronounced like the Scottish 'loch', as in Loch Ness Monster. Gondor's Sindarin pronunciation of the letter 'y' is different than the elves' pronunciation, so I added both pronunciations in the respelling of words with 'y', the Gondorian ones labeled with a 'G'. Quite a few of the vowel sounds were difficult to write simply, with non-accented letters, (since I wanted to make it as simple as possible to understand), but I attempted to be accurate.
I used this website to assist in Dwarvish pronunciation and stress. There are several glottal stops in the language, and are represented by an apostrophe in pronunciation (a glottal stop is that clear stop represented by the hyphen in the word 'uh-oh'). For instance, k'h is pronounced like the kh in 'backhand'. 'th' and 'ph' also have the glottal stop, but as they are common sounds in English, I added a syllable break as well as an apostrophe to help readers remember that 'th' in the language is not like the word 'the', but rather more like the word 'outhouse', only with a glottal stop. If you have anything to add, or debate, please feel free to comment.
Stress is represented by capital letters in words with more than one syllable.
The Finnish pronunciations/translations are brought to you by the native Finnish speaker in my household.
This is a continuous work in progress. If any linguists out there see a mistake (or two or ten) or want to add more, or fill in an unknown, please don't hesitate to post. I am far from an expert. With the vowels in Dwarvish and Black Speech, long vowel sounds are paired with letters with a circumflex (a little carrot above the letter), and short vowels without, since Tolkien seemed to do that with some languages. Because long vowels/short vowels don't seem to have a large distinction in sound like in English, but rather represent how long they are pronounced, I am not as of yet sure how to spell out the differences between long and short vowels in pronunciation. Any suggestions would be great.
There are few translations available of the small amount of Dwarvish we have, and even less in the Black Speech, but I translated what I could. And I am not sure what languages are used for some places, like the tribal peoples of Enedwaith, so those are left blank; any aid there would be wonderful.
The list goes in alphabetical order by region, and in each region are cities, areas, and landmarks of interest. If anyone has a request for pronunciation for anything, including NPC names, just leave a message here on the thread.
S = Sindarin (Grey Elvish) K = Khuzdul (Dwarvish) B = Black Speech F = Finnish (in Forochel) R = Rohirric U = Unknown
LOTHLÓRIEN: lohth-LHOH-rih-en (S; 'dreamflower'; lit. 'loth + lor + -ien'; 'flower dream + -ien') Caras Galadhon: KAH-rahs GAH-la-dhon (S; 'city of the trees'; lit. 'caras galadh + -on'; 'city trees + -on') Cirin-en-Galadh: KIH-rihn en GAH-lahdh (S; 'cerin en galadh'; 'mound of the tree'; unsure if the use of "cirin" rather than "cerin" is some rare exception to an 'e' in the first syllable changing because of a plural (and definition is meant to be 'mounds'), or if it's a typo in-game). Egladil: EHG-lah-dil (S; 'egladil'; 'angle') Eryn Laer: EH-reun lahyr; G: eh-reen lahyr (S; 'eryn laer'; 'wood [of] summer OR wood [of] song') Fanuidhol: fah-NOOI-dhohl (S; 'Cloudyhead'; lit. 'fanui + dôl'; 'cloudy head (of a hill)' Gelirdor: geh-LIHR-dor (S; 'gelir + dôr'; 'merry land') Nan Celebrant: nahn ke-LEHB-rahnt (S; 'nan celeb + rant'; 'grassland [of the] Silverlode') Nanduhirion: nahn-doo-HIH-rih-on (S; 'The Dimrill Dale'; lit. 'nan + dû + sirion', soft mutation; 'valley [of the] dim great river') Nimrodel: NIHM-roh-dehl (S; perhaps 'lady of the white cave') Taur Hith: towr hith (S; 'taur hîth'; 'forest [of] mist)
Wow, that took a ton of work! One thing that would help with pronunciation would be accents, as in which syllable(s) are accented. I know that elvish has a pretty set rule for this (which I'm blanking on at the moment ), but I have no idea where to put the emphases in dwarf and orc words.
None the less a very helpful guide. Berephon will be proud .
"Nothing makes you feel epic like a pile of corpses at your feet." Stormwaltz, 1st gen AC1 dev
DH is pronounced more like th in the word "these" rather then "thin", according the appendicies.
Where now is the lolcat and the derailer? Where is the troll that was trolling?
Where is the URL and the youtube, and the snappy retort flowing?
Where is the hand on the keyboard, and the LCD screen glowing?
They have passed like rain on the thread, like a wind in the post;
The days have gone down in the forums behind the cookys into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the nubs not searching,
Or behold the flowing derails from the Sea returning?
'i' is like in 'sick', not as in 'machine'.
Khuzdul 'kh' is like 'backhand', not like 'loch'.
'lh' is voiceless.
Is this for Dwarvish? Also, do you remember where you obtained this information? (If it's online, I'd like to look at it myself for when I do future pronunciations). Thanks.
Elendilmir (the raid toons): LAERWEN, 80 htr ♦ OLORIEL, 75 min ♦ AETHELIND, 75 capt ♦ ROSALLA, 75 burg Landroval (the RP toons): LAERLIN (Bio + Drawing) ♦ AETHELIND (Bio + Drawing) ♦ NETHAEL
Originally Posted by J. R. R. Tolkien, The Road Goes Ever On
The intended pronunciation is given in Appendix E to Vol. III but not perhaps with great clarity, so I offer a few notes.
Vowels. Short unless marked ´. Of the long vowels only í (as in English see) by chance occurs. The short vowels may be rendered as in E. sick, bed, hot, foot (for ŭ), though ŏ is intended to be rounder than in modern E.
Indeed? I must have misread that- I'll fix that. Thanks!
happy to help!
I'm just glad I was acutally pronouncing most of the Finnish stuff properly.
though, Forochel is Fo-ro-chel with a loch like ch, not a K as you wrote it.
Where now is the lolcat and the derailer? Where is the troll that was trolling?
Where is the URL and the youtube, and the snappy retort flowing?
Where is the hand on the keyboard, and the LCD screen glowing?
They have passed like rain on the thread, like a wind in the post;
The days have gone down in the forums behind the cookys into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the nubs not searching,
Or behold the flowing derails from the Sea returning?
I breathe a sigh of relief now knowing I pronounce more than half of these correctly. Phew!
There are many syllabic breaks in the above list that are in question, and a few vowel sounds that may be confusing. Use of oo for u is sometimes appropriate, but not always. Ch doesn't have a k sound, it's like the ch in Bach. Rendering it Kh would make it a little clearer. R is thrilled, Rh is not.... There are a lot of problems in the above list, but it's a great start and still, even with errors, is a great help.
... but it's a great start and still, even with errors, is a great help.
I'm glad you added that bit on the end. It really is a great help in the sense that the 90% of players who have no clue might read it and get it 90% corrrect. The 10% is scholarly argument. As for say "th" as in "these" not "thin" - while we can usually hear the difference with care is this not linguistic hair-splitting for most people? What about the cart/cot/caught thing - I hear and speak 3 very different sounding words here - not many Americans do.
Pendarion of Gilrain, Level 75 Captain, Arafin of Gilrain, Level 75 Elf Lore-master, Grimbor of Gilrain, Level 75 Dwarf Guardian,
Findorin of Gilrain, Level 70 Elf Hunter, Grimwise of Gilrain, Level 65 Dwarf Minstrel, Gilgaran of Gilrain, Level 65 Elf Warden, Arafindor of Gilrain. Level 65 Man Champion, Andarfin of Arkenstone, Level 65 Man Lore-master, Gilgarion of Arkenstone, Level 65 Elf Rune-keeper,
Voiced and un-voiced consonants are distinguished in most languages and accents I've looked at. English is not that common in having no distinction symbolically between them.
As for say "th" as in "these" not "thin" - while we can usually hear the difference with care is this not linguistic hair-splitting for most people?
frankly, no, I can't imagine hearing someone say "these" with a "thin" th sounds, have you ever heard anyone pronounce the two th versions the same?
Where now is the lolcat and the derailer? Where is the troll that was trolling?
Where is the URL and the youtube, and the snappy retort flowing?
Where is the hand on the keyboard, and the LCD screen glowing?
They have passed like rain on the thread, like a wind in the post;
The days have gone down in the forums behind the cookys into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the nubs not searching,
Or behold the flowing derails from the Sea returning?
Now I'm saying these two words out loud to see if I can hear a difference. Lol.
In the grand scheme of things there is not much difference to me...I can't imagine how anyone can make path and math sound the same but they manage it over here That's a much bigger difference
Pendarion of Gilrain, Level 75 Captain, Arafin of Gilrain, Level 75 Elf Lore-master, Grimbor of Gilrain, Level 75 Dwarf Guardian,
Findorin of Gilrain, Level 70 Elf Hunter, Grimwise of Gilrain, Level 65 Dwarf Minstrel, Gilgaran of Gilrain, Level 65 Elf Warden, Arafindor of Gilrain. Level 65 Man Champion, Andarfin of Arkenstone, Level 65 Man Lore-master, Gilgarion of Arkenstone, Level 65 Elf Rune-keeper,
Wow, that took a ton of work! One thing that would help with pronunciation would be accents, as in which syllable(s) are accented. I know that elvish has a pretty set rule for this (which I'm blanking on at the moment ), but I have no idea where to put the emphases in dwarf and orc words.
None the less a very helpful guide. Berephon will be proud .
Yes, accents would help.
For instance, Annuminas has the accent on U. But Minas Tirith has the accent on Mi. Many different ways to say it, using corrent sounds, if you don't know which syllable to emphasize.
In the grand scheme of things there is not much difference to me...I can't imagine how anyone can make path and math sound the same but they manage it over here That's a much bigger difference
Thin has an extended sound. Listen to Elrond pronounce "Our list of allies grows thin" in the FOTR movie. These has accent on latter part of the word with no extended pronunciation of the Th (dh).
I've never heard a difference in math and path in all my travels.. how would you differentiate the two?
To me "ion" is "eye-on" so eth-el-ion doesn't seem correct. I would say eth-el-eon but edh-el-ee-on works too if you say it quicky. Hey...we even argue about how to pronounce the components
Pendarion of Gilrain, Level 75 Captain, Arafin of Gilrain, Level 75 Elf Lore-master, Grimbor of Gilrain, Level 75 Dwarf Guardian,
Findorin of Gilrain, Level 70 Elf Hunter, Grimwise of Gilrain, Level 65 Dwarf Minstrel, Gilgaran of Gilrain, Level 65 Elf Warden, Arafindor of Gilrain. Level 65 Man Champion, Andarfin of Arkenstone, Level 65 Man Lore-master, Gilgarion of Arkenstone, Level 65 Elf Rune-keeper,
Thin has an extended sound. Listen to Elrond pronounce "Our list of allies grows thin" in the FOTR movie. These has accent on latter part of the word with no extended pronunciation of the Th (dh).
I've never heard a difference in math and path in all my travels.. how would you differentiate the two?
Hehe in England! In most of England math is as you might say it but path is usually pronounced more like "parth". Of course we never say "math" as an abbreviation for "mathematics" either but "maths". In some north of England accents - Geordies for example - they would say path like math. EDIT: "bath" is pronounced "barth" too - and that includes the name of the city too.
The point is, when you read a pronuciation guide that JRRT wrote you have to read it with his west/central slightly rural English accent!
Last edited by findorin-gilrain; Jul 21 2010 at 10:53 AM.
Pendarion of Gilrain, Level 75 Captain, Arafin of Gilrain, Level 75 Elf Lore-master, Grimbor of Gilrain, Level 75 Dwarf Guardian,
Findorin of Gilrain, Level 70 Elf Hunter, Grimwise of Gilrain, Level 65 Dwarf Minstrel, Gilgaran of Gilrain, Level 65 Elf Warden, Arafindor of Gilrain. Level 65 Man Champion, Andarfin of Arkenstone, Level 65 Man Lore-master, Gilgarion of Arkenstone, Level 65 Elf Rune-keeper,
You're both proposing a vc-vc-vc split as opposed to a v-cv-cvc split. Sindarin typically uses cv(c)-cv(c)-cv(c) structure, but this poses a problem for words that start with a vowel and with some dipthongs.
e = the e in get
i = the ee sound of seen / the i of machine
o = the o in for / so, often rendered oh.
If io is a dipthong then io = the yo in yoyo... but if it's not then it's ee-oh
Just how different is e.the.lyon from eth.el.yon? And is io intended as a dipthong here? Is e.the.lee.on more appropriate? Hard to say. I'd love for someone to cite sources on this one. Since the root of the suffix is iaun I'd go with -ee-on as the ending.
Result: e-'the-lee-on, which bleeds into eh-THEL-ee-on in usage, which you can then render as edh-el-ee-on or eth-el-ion without anyone really catching ANY difference when used in conversation.
...
Yes, the dh is pronounced like the th in these.
...
Just how different is e.the.lyon from eth.el.yon? And is io intended as a dipthong here? Is e.the.lee.on more appropriate? Hard to say. I'd love for someone to cite sources on this one.
I suspect the OP meant the "th" sound anyway judging from the rest of the work. It's easy to slip up on that if you read it in your head the same. And is this not the 10% scholar question? Compared to the pronunciation I have heard of "ed-hel-lion" then any of your versions is 90% correct.
Pendarion of Gilrain, Level 75 Captain, Arafin of Gilrain, Level 75 Elf Lore-master, Grimbor of Gilrain, Level 75 Dwarf Guardian,
Findorin of Gilrain, Level 70 Elf Hunter, Grimwise of Gilrain, Level 65 Dwarf Minstrel, Gilgaran of Gilrain, Level 65 Elf Warden, Arafindor of Gilrain. Level 65 Man Champion, Andarfin of Arkenstone, Level 65 Man Lore-master, Gilgarion of Arkenstone, Level 65 Elf Rune-keeper,
I suspect the OP meant the "th" sound anyway judging from the rest of the work. It's easy to slip up on that if you read it in your head the same. And is this not the 10% scholar question? Compared to the pronunciation I have heard of "ed-hel-lion" then any of your versions is 90% correct.
Agreed... 90%... err.. 100%! ANYTHING close to eh-THEL-ee-on is correct, but ed-HELL-eye-uhn is just plain wrong.
There is no 'io' diphthong in Sindarin, and see my note above concerning 'i'.
While io is not listed as diphthong in the text, ee-oh is naturally pronounced as an io diphthong if the two vowels are in the same syllable i.e. it becomes indistinguishable from the diphthong in use. This isn't a Sindarin issue; it's the sound combinations natural blend. ee-oh > yo. Does this strictly mean that all occurrences of io must then be split into two syllables to prevent the diphthong from naturally occurring?
There are many syllabic breaks in the above list that are in question, and a few vowel sounds that may be confusing. Use of oo for u is sometimes appropriate, but not always. Ch doesn't have a k sound, it's like the ch in Bach. Rendering it Kh would make it a little clearer. R is thrilled, Rh is not.... There are a lot of problems in the above list, but it's a great start and still, even with errors, is a great help.
Which is why I am asking for any assistance in perfecting this- I shall see to correcting this. Thank you for any corrections in advance.
Elendilmir (the raid toons): LAERWEN, 80 htr ♦ OLORIEL, 75 min ♦ AETHELIND, 75 capt ♦ ROSALLA, 75 burg Landroval (the RP toons): LAERLIN (Bio + Drawing) ♦ AETHELIND (Bio + Drawing) ♦ NETHAEL
I saw no word for "eth", and because it makes sense in context, I would be very surprised if 'edhel' was not part of the word.
They're using the dash '-' to indicate syllable breaks, not words, and the th for how to say the word, since many readers can't figure out the dh. You're correct, it should remain dh, but this is also a great place to introduce IPA.
Note: When Sindarin words are combined the original syllabic breaks are not maintained. Dúnadan comes from dûn+adan , but the syllables become Dú-na-dan once combined.
About places of Moria, it always seemed to me that the names were written with arabic alphabet in mind. I currently study arabic, being in early phases Im not really familiar with meaning and translation of words yet, but all the names are written within the arabic alphabet and structure as well.
these are just examples and I can go on and on with all the places of moria. Im pretty positive its not the Arabic language, however Im also pretty positive that these names were structured of the arabic alphabet.
Khuzdul, the language of the Dwarves, is most closely reminicent of Hebrew, so that is likely the similarity you are seeing. Except Skumfil, which is Sindarin, I believe.
About places of Moria, it always seemed to me that the names were written with arabic alphabet in mind. I currently study arabic, being in early phases Im not really familiar with meaning and translation of words yet, but all the names are written within the arabic alphabet and structure as well.
these are just examples and I can go on and on with all the places of moria. Im pretty positive its not the Arabic language, however Im also pretty positive that these names were structured of the arabic alphabet.
You are not too far wrong as Khuzdûl is based upon a Semitic language root, as is Arabic. Think instead that they share a distant common ancestor?
Last edited by findorin-gilrain; Jul 21 2010 at 01:36 PM.
Reason: Khuzdûl
Pendarion of Gilrain, Level 75 Captain, Arafin of Gilrain, Level 75 Elf Lore-master, Grimbor of Gilrain, Level 75 Dwarf Guardian,
Findorin of Gilrain, Level 70 Elf Hunter, Grimwise of Gilrain, Level 65 Dwarf Minstrel, Gilgaran of Gilrain, Level 65 Elf Warden, Arafindor of Gilrain. Level 65 Man Champion, Andarfin of Arkenstone, Level 65 Man Lore-master, Gilgarion of Arkenstone, Level 65 Elf Rune-keeper,
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), but I have no idea where to put the emphases in dwarf and orc words.
.
"Nothing makes you feel epic like a pile of corpses at your feet." Stormwaltz, 1st gen AC1 dev
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Originally Posted by lf2536
Elendilmir (the raid toons): LAERWEN, 80 htr ♦ OLORIEL, 75 min ♦ AETHELIND, 75 capt ♦ ROSALLA, 75 burg
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