Thread: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

I don't know why people get their panties in such a wad when the subject of DPS/HPS/Threat Meters come up. They have so many valid uses that they far outweigh any possible PERCEIVED negative aspects. There's a reason why WoW has the best raiding experience out there for ACTUAL RAIDERS--that reason, in addition to great, well-thought-out content in general--is meters.

DPS Meters: If you're a DPS class and you don't give a rat's behind how much DPS you're putting out, YOU FAIL. It's really very simple. If your JOB is to provide DPS to a raid or to an instance group and you don't do that, it doesn't really matter whether you're a ****** player, haven't given any thought to your gear or traits, or you simply don't have a clue about your class or rotation--not only do you just suck, but you're negatively affecting the success of your group or raid. If I have 24 other people that I run with all the time and know exactly what they're capable of, and I know they don't suck, and one or more of them are unable to make a raid and we invite some new guys that nobody knows, myself, the other raid members, and the raid leader have the RIGHT and even an OBLIGATION to know what the new guys are doing. If I'm at the top of the dps meter and out of the 18 other dps, 14 are relatively close to me, those 14 are doing their jobs correctly. However, if the other 4 dps have 10% or less of my overall dmg/dps they are not only screaming "I don't have a clue what I'm doing!", they are hampering the ENTIRE group/raid's progress/success/enjoyment. Furthermore, they should never be invited back (unless it is established in the future that--according to the dps meter--they have improved). Having SOME idea of what people are capable of when it comes to DPS is NOT a bad thing, it's critically mandatory to the success of the group as a whole that that person's performance be judged and it be determined whether they obviously know what they are doing or obviously don't have a clue. Not having access to a dps meter means you don't really know if your raiding partners are beneficial to the raiding group as a whole or not. Not standing in pancakes is important, but putting out 5, 10, 20 percent of the dps that everyone else is putting out quite simply means you don't belong in that raid. END OF STORY.

A few of you have said roughly "dps/hps/threat meters makes the content so easy that the only options are to increase the difficulty or be bored". That is a bunch of bull and you know it... Good, quality players working together flawlessly and with great skill is what makes content easy. Not meters. Meters are tools that anyone COULD use but the people who get the best use out of them are the ones who spend hours practicing/refining their rotations based on DPS meter data which is easily/readily/quickly available right inside the game. AND they spend hours trying out different traits/skills/gear/buff combinations to squeeze out every last drop of DPS. AND they spend hours researching/studying boss fights/encounters so that they're not only prepared but downright GOOD when the fight happens. These players will ALWAYS be more successful than Joe Blow and Suzy Q EVEN WITHOUT meters because they quite simply--put the WORK in to get that way. Depriving anyone, and especially the good players who give a rip about the game and their abilities of this simple, easy to implement tool known as a DPS meter is utterly ludicrous even if the person wouldn't use it anyway.

HPS: It's simple. If you have 4 healers and 3 are within a few percentage points of each other and 1 has 10-20% of the other's heal output, that 1 person sucks. They don't know what they're doing. They aren't geared right. They don't know their class or their rotation. THEY DON'T BELONG IN THE RAID. They are severely hampering the overall success/enjoyment of the entire raid. They let people die which leads to wipes or really long fights which leads to people getting pissed off at each other and the game in general.

Another thing: a few have mentioned that some people "play to the meters" to look good or stroke their e-peen/ego. The bottom line is if you're DPS or Heals and you have a skill that removes a negative effect and you're in a fight that has that negative effect happening every so often and you DON'T USE YOUR SKILL that removes the effect at all, it doesn't matter one bit how much numbers you put on the board, you're not doing your job skillfully or effectively. That's why GOOD DPS meters not only track the actual numbers themselves but also skill usage frequency. Without that simple, easy to implement DPS meter, you have no idea if your fellow raiders are using their abilities in a manner that positively impacts the overall success of the raid or group... or not.

No, the fact is: without a good dps meter, we're all just bumbling idiots who THINK we know what we're doing when in truth we're all just guesstimating at our own abilities and the abilities of the others in the raid group. I would much rather have meters AND a challenging raid than have NO meters and an easy raid meant to be SO EASY that literally ANYONE regardless of skill can do it. Because the truth is, some people are NEVER going to be able to go into raids and be successful. And I for one would much rather eliminate those people from my raiding team. If i'm gonna spend hours a night raiding, I want to surround myself with competent, skilled players who care as much about the success of the group as I do. DPS Meters help tremendously towards that end. DPS/HPS meters separate the wheat from the chaff. And I'm not talking about one mage/loremaster who gets 0.37% more dps than another mage/loremaster--I'm talking about those people who literally get 5-20% or thereabouts of what everyone else is doing be it heals or dps. Those people exist in droves and I don't want to group with them. Not when I'm spending hours of my life, and tons of my own resources ingame to attend a raid for a SMALL CHANCE at obtaining an item that is going to make me put out more dps/heals thereby making me an even better player.

Now with all that said--here's why I don't like DPS meters: people who have a few aoe abilities and on a big aoe pull they happen to get a respectable amount of spike DPS and feel the uncontrollable urge to spam their meter in MY raid all the while completely oblivious of the fact that they're at the absolute bottom of the dps chart--even after the tanks. That is what is truly bad about DPS meters, those complete and utter bumbling idiots who don't have a clue what they're doing who see a big number pop up for a second and it makes them think they're 1337. In the wrong hands, any powerful tool can be utterly annoying and even dangerous; in the RIGHT hands that powerful tool is even more powerful and helps to craft a powerful player who can go into any raid and do their job well.

Threat: Accurately gauging one's own threat relative to the other members of the raid (namely tanks) is NEVER a bad thing. It's a hell of a lot better than pretending that you know how to manage your threat... pulling off the tank... and causing a wipe. Another wipe. And another. After all those wipes we're ALL pissed off at you or whoever's fault it is because we're collectively NOT there to fail. We're there to succeed and get phat lewtz.

This has been my rather lengthy assessment of why meters are NOT the great evil some of you purport them to be, they're actually an incredibly powerful/useful tool in learning more about yourself, your class, the game, and the many fights IN the game.

Let the flaming begin...

and the above post and the posters l33t name are exactly why we do not need that kinda bunk here.

thank you ever so much sir for proving our point for us.

bless you

Originally Posted by Darej

and the above post and the posters l33t name are exactly why we do not need that kinda bunk here.

thank you ever so much sir for proving our point for us.

bless you

I'm going to say this one more time.

As long as someone is abiding by the EULA/ToS/CoC, they have the right to play this game any way they see fit, with or without others who share their interests. It doesn't matter whether that play style is making pies in the Shire, grouping up to just have fun in an instance, or yes, even feeling that winning/succeeding is the only way to have fun.

Nobody here has told you how you should play and you certainly have no right telling others how they should play. If you don't like that playstyle then the solution is simple. Don't group with them. Chances are they wouldn't want to group with you either.

Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia

I'm going to say this one more time.

As long as someone is abiding by the EULA/ToS/CoC, they have the right to play this game any way they see fit, with or without others who share their interests. It doesn't matter whether that play style is making pies in the Shire, grouping up to just have fun in an instance, or yes, even feeling that winning/succeeding is the only way to have fun.

Nobody here has told you how you should play and you certainly have no right telling others how they should play. If you don't like that playstyle then the solution is simple. Don't group with them. Chances are they wouldn't want to group with you either.

uh..did you even read the post i was referring to?

i was responding to his argument about why meters/gearscore should be allowed.
his whole post showed exactly why we do not want those kinda of things here.

its not a legitimate playstyle here since the mods dont exist.

so not really sure what you are getting on me about.

Originally Posted by Darej

uh..did you even read the post i was referring to?

i was responding to his argument about why meters/gearscore should be allowed.
his whole post showed exactly why we do not want those kinda of things here.

its not a legitimate playstyle here since the mods dont exist.

so not really sure what you are getting on me about.

Yes, actually I did read the post - and despite the wall of text it is, the poster makes a good point - for those who want to put winning first (actually, I'm not sure you did read that post, because the poster mentioned nothing of gearscore). Putting winning first is the playstyle. HPS/DPS meters are just tools to use to improve themselves, and make sure they've got the right group to do the job. Saying that this isn't a legitimate playstyle because these meters don't exist, is kinda like saying that collecting cosmetics wasn't a legitimate hobby until the wardrobe. Both statements are just as wrong.

People who raid/group for the explicit purpose of beating the instance, get their fun/enjoyment from doing just that. Anything less is simply unacceptable. Naturally they want more information to be able to take on the instance with the best group they can assemble - and such meters can be used to assist them with that goal.

Yes, the unending complaint will always be: "But that means they can judge other people and kick them if they don't perform well enough for them!" Yeah? So what? They make the group and they get to choose who stays or goes. If winning isn't the most important thing to you, then you probably wouldn't have been a good fit anyway - and should probably find a group that finds fun even in losing (which, from my experience is the majority of groups). If it is, and you're not performing well enough, then it's your responsibility to improve.

Everybody has the right to play the game the way they want to, and the right to request tools/features/options to make that playstyle more enjoyable to the individual. Just because one doesn't like that playstyle - doesn't mean that it's somehow illegitimate.

Edit: I apologize for the heavy dose of sarcasm, I don't mean to be offensive about it. However, it does irritate me when I see anybody of one playstyle demonize another's. It doesn't even matter if my playstyle happens to be the same as the one who's doing the demonizing. For the record - winning does not mean everything to me, and although I'd like to play around with a personal DPS meter to improve my rotation/performance, I would never require a group dps meter. That being said, I do not wish ill on anybody who does or wants to. Everybody here has the right to play this game the way they see fit, without anybody else telling them that they're not welcome here.

Originally Posted by Darej

and the above post and the posters l33t name are exactly why we do not need that kinda bunk here.

thank you ever so much sir for proving our point for us.

bless you

Please, kind sir, enlighten me as to what EXACTLY it is about my post that proves your point and proves why you don't need/want meters in LOTRO. Instead of using such a simple-minded blanket statement which says absolutely nothing, use examples and your communication skills to prove what EXACTLY it is about meters we don't need.

Is it A: You don't enjoy grouping with quality players who know what they are doing and use every tool available to them to become a better player? Or is it B: You personally have never used any sort of meter and consequently have no idea how to use them to better your own performance. Or maybe it's C: You quite simply don't want others to know how poorly YOU are doing.

And as to my name, a name proves NOTHING in any sort of intelligent debate about any subject. My name here happens to be the same gaming handle i've used ever since Duke Nukem and I don't see that changing any time soon, nor do I see how it could possibly reflect in any way on the conversation at hand.

So please, kind sir, actually use your brain instead of saying "the above post proves why we don't need that bunk here" and come up with an actual statement of your own as to WHY we DON'T need meters in LOTRO or any other game where performance determines success. Until then... your point remains UNproven.

One wall-o-text deserves another I guess.

Originally Posted by str8tschut3r

I don't know why people get their panties in such a wad when the subject of DPS/HPS/Threat Meters come up. They have so many valid uses that they far outweigh any possible PERCEIVED negative aspects.

However would anyone get a negative perception?

Originally Posted by str8tschut3r

...YOU FAIL...
...you just suck...
...you don't belong...
...that 1 person sucks...
They don't know what they're doing.
They aren't geared right.
They don't know their class...
THEY DON'T BELONG...
I for one would much rather eliminate those people from my raiding team.
I don't want to group with...
...those complete and utter bumbling idiots who don't have a clue...

Oh, maybe that's how. I suspect your post had the desired effect on many folks as you intended. Anyways, moving on...

Originally Posted by str8tschut3r

Good, quality players working together flawlessly and with great skill is what makes content easy. Not meters.

Okay, you almost had me agreeing with you, but then you argue against yourself.

Originally Posted by str8tschut3r

No, the fact is: without a good dps meter, we're all just bumbling idiots who THINK we know what we're doing when in truth we're all just guesstimating at our own abilities and the abilities of the others in the raid group.

Which is it? Are meters a requirement or not?

Originally Posted by str8tschut3r

A few of you have said roughly "dps/hps/threat meters makes the content so easy that the only options are to increase the difficulty or be bored". That is a bunch of bull and you know it...

I experienced that transition in WoW so I know it's not bull, and I suspect you know that as well. Look. I really could not care less if you had meters. I used them in WoW and I'd even use them in LOTRO if available. But I'd only welcome meters IF Turbine wouldn't increase instance difficulty based on the leet raiders complaining about "ez mode" instances. Unfortunately, Turbine already does that even without meters. It would only get worse with meters.

You yourself write at length about how meters let the so-called "good" players refine their DPS/healing/whatever to such a degree that basically everyone is at the absolute peak and similar in performance. I agree with you. That will happen. The Devs themselves won't be able to put out more DPS or healing or whatever. I submit that will in fact result in trivializing content as it exists today. Turbine will soon hear the cries of "we beat the latest raid in a week!" and "no more care bear content!" They'll have no choice but to dial up difficulty (just as Blizzard did). That means the only folks who will capable of doing the content are those who:

• "spend hours practicing/refining their rotations based on DPS meter data"
• "spend hours trying out different traits/skills/gear/buff combinations to squeeze out every last drop of DPS"
• "spend hours researching/studying boss fights/encounters"

That's a lot of hours! In other words, the only folks who will capable of experiencing the content are the minority of the player base who have that kind of time. It's nearly there now.

I've been in LOTRO beta testing several times and I've been in raids testing new content on my main that I know very well. The instances aren't balanced for the average player. They just aren't. They're balanced to give leet raiders something to do for a while. Turbine has to do this or they'd be filleted alive.

Now, add in the meters. The leet raiders will get even more efficient (I know they will; we certainly did in WoW), they'll beat new content even quicker, and Turbine will have no choice but to further increase difficulty.

But listen to me. I don't want to nerf end game instances. Hardly! I've always advocated Turbine have a "quest mode" (with zero "phat lewtz"; just allow players to complete quests and deeds), "regular mode" (with decent loot), and a "hard mode" (with teh awesomest phat lewtz! that make "an even better player") for their raids and other large end game instances.

Give me a quest mode, then tweak that hard mode and make it insane. That way the leet raiders can have their glass chewing grind and their gear. Quest mode would allow other, average players to experience the story within those spaces. And why shouldn't they? They pay the same amount of money as the leet raiders. Should they be excluded because they aren't "Good, quality" "powerful" players "who give a rip about the game" (because everyone knows only leet raiders give a rip about the game), "are doing their jobs correctly" and "don't suck?"

Think about it. Of all the content in game, what content are you, the leet raider, excluded from? None. What content am I excluded from? Only the end game instances. (Please, let's not argue about how I could access that content if only I'd take the time, aka mortgage my life. I do NOT have that kind of time. Period.) A quest mode would allow everyone else to experience the content and the hard mode would allow you, the leet raider, to keep your challenge. Is that really too much to ask?

(Blizzard has apparently learned a lesson to some degree. I heard recently that they're using some tech to slowly increase a buff, something like LOTRO's Inspired Greatness I guess, within the top end game instance so the closer Cataclysm comes, the more likely it is that everyone will get to see that content before everything changes. Good move by Blizzard. It allows the leet raiders to have their brag and yet includes more and more paying customers as time goes by.)

To answer my own question above, yes, I believe it is too much to ask. Turbine doesn't seem interested in opening up their end game instances to their average players. So I don't think you have much to worry about. Turbine seems to be listening to you and not the rest of us. The end game instances have definitely been getting harder.

So I'm sure you'll get your meters eventually and the content will get even harder to compensate because you and your friends will have "tweaked" your outputs to the absolute theoretical max. And when you put your leet stats in your Bio (like some folks put their crit numbers in their Bio's today), I'll be sure to read it, be very impressed, then move on knowing that I'm actually enjoying the game instead of working a second job.

I'll end with this. If Turbine posts and says "We're expanding Lua to allow meters (DPS/healing/threat/etc.) However, ALL beta testing conducted will have that aspect of Lua disabled (ripcorded). If raiders beat the content in a week when it goes Live, then so be it. We're not increasing the difficulty.", then I will join the campaign for meters. Until then, I hope Turbine avoids it. That's based on experience, not speculation or emotion.

@Thoroval

I agree totally with your idea of scalable difficulty. That way you get out of the game what you want to get out of it--and what you're willing to put into it. It would certainly allow all players to experience ALL content and remove the exclusivity factor. I for one would stand behind such a move on Turbine's part wholeheartedly, if it allowed me the chance to have the raiding experience I personally feel that I should be able to get from this game.

You yourself said that already the end game instances are getting harder. This is true. Any time you have a percentage of the player base that spends the majority of their time raiding end-game rather than "making pies in the Shire" the outcome is that percentage of players are of superior skill than the average player. Players of superior skill will ALWAYS be able to conquer content easier than those who possess either less skill or as you put it--less time to achieve that level of skill. So content shouldn't have one diffculty level that is "easy mode so everyone can do it no problem" but levels of difficulty with correspondingly increased loot quality.

There is nothing wrong with increasing difficulty when there are tiers of difficulty. The hardest modes will always be sought after by the best raiders and the easiest modes will always be sought by those not willing or able to put in the time to become a "l33t raider". There is nothing wrong with that setup at all. That way everyone gets out of the game what they want to get out of it.

As for my comment "without meters we're all just bumbling idiots" well that was written with a hefty dose of sarcasm which I realize doesn't translate well at all into text.

And for the record: I'm not trying to be such an elitist jerk that if you aren't within 0.001% of the best dpser then you can't raid. Quite the contrary--I'm trying to reach a point where myself and other raiders possess the tools to eliminate those players that literally don't know how to play their class as represented by their 20% or less dps output as compared to everyone else. If you've ever been part of a raid team and had even a few of those people in your group and wiped constantly as a result you can certainly understand my own frustration and the frustration of others put in the same position.

I don't mind wiping. I don't mind dying. I don't mind losing. As long as everyone knows what they're doing and has put in the work. It's when there are tons of players that don't understand the game well enough to be raiding that I get infinitely irritated and frustrated. If I'm going to raid, I want to raid with actual raiders or at least good enough players that the content is possible at the very least. I've been in too many fail-raids over the years to want to be in more of them. However, if I do find myself in a fail-raid I still give it my all and do the best that I can possibly do; if enough of the raid does that sometimes you still win. More often than not though--you don't.

I realize perfectly well that many of you HATE the way I feel and the points I have made because good raiders and good raiding mechanics are often points of contention for the average player. However, myself and the others like me should not be left out in the cold simply because there are more people that DON'T want to raid or raid well.

Dang... I just wanted to see which one of my weapons were behaving better in a few different circumstances without trying to add it up all in my head and come up with my own gestimated avg's... after reading this thread, guess there will not be one of these coming any time soon. Sigh....

There are several threads discussing meters and other raid addons. The vast majority of people posting in those threads oppose meters for a myriad of reasons set forth in those threads.

Originally Posted by miloatlantic1

Dang... I just wanted to see which one of my weapons were behaving better in a few different circumstances without trying to add it up all in my head and come up with my own gestimated avg's... after reading this thread, guess there will not be one of these coming any time soon. Sigh....

There isn't anything in this thread, but forum posters arguing on the internet, to indicate Lua functionality won't be expanded eventually. It's hard to say if Turbine will provide advanced combat data, but they are pretty innovative. I'm sure we'll see more stuff that adds to the game. It's just hard to say what that will encompass. They are a little tight lipped when it comes to those things.

Originally Posted by str8tschut3r

Please, kind sir, enlighten me as to what EXACTLY it is about my post that proves your point and proves why you don't need/want meters in LOTRO. Instead of using such a simple-minded blanket statement which says absolutely nothing, use examples and your communication skills to prove what EXACTLY it is about meters we don't need.

Is it A: You don't enjoy grouping with quality players who know what they are doing and use every tool available to them to become a better player? Or is it B: You personally have never used any sort of meter and consequently have no idea how to use them to better your own performance. Or maybe it's C: You quite simply don't want others to know how poorly YOU are doing.

And as to my name, a name proves NOTHING in any sort of intelligent debate about any subject. My name here happens to be the same gaming handle i've used ever since Duke Nukem and I don't see that changing any time soon, nor do I see how it could possibly reflect in any way on the conversation at hand.

So please, kind sir, actually use your brain instead of saying "the above post proves why we don't need that bunk here" and come up with an actual statement of your own as to WHY we DON'T need meters in LOTRO or any other game where performance determines success. Until then... your point remains UNproven.

Originally Posted by str8tschut3r

I realize perfectly well that many of you HATE the way I feel and the points I have made because good raiders and good raiding mechanics are often points of contention for the average player. However, myself and the others like me should not be left out in the cold simply because there are more people that DON'T want to raid or raid well.

First, I believe he was pointing out that your attitude is exactly the reason many of us do not want meters in LOTRO. Your comments give a blueprint as to how an epeen measuring stick (like a group dps meter) will be misused.

Also, you seem to believe that quality players would use group dps meters. You seem to think that the best raiders need group dps meters. That is simply not true. Quality players and high end raiders realize that meters do not show what is necessary for success. As was pointed out by a quality player / high end raider:

Originally Posted by nirsul

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again: meters aren't used by nor will they be abused by "hardcores" or the top raiders. We don't need them, any more than we needed CStats to know if our skills were good enough or our strats worked. We had/have a simple metric for being "good": we succeed or we fail.

No, meters are used and abused by wannabes. And they WILL be abused by wannabes as people in this thread show. Seriously, we've seen that phenomena crop up in posts here via the whole idea of labelling someone a "fail" champ or RK or whatever based on a DPS score. Let's be clear: to top raiders the only "fail" player is one who can't learn in a reasonable amount of time how to help the raid beat the encounters. That's it, not some artificial metric from a DPS meter or anything else.

However, let's be honest: there's always far more wannabes than there are top raiders. And denying that group wide DPS meters won't have an adverse effect on the social milieu of this game is IMO an egrigious example of sticking your head in the sand because you want them. Granted, there are abusive idiots who use any number of measures (whether it be morale totals, or virtue levels, or jewellery items) to pretend to be better than their wannae status/mentality deserves already in this game, but giving those idiots a meter is like unlocking the armory door. It escalates their firepower, and really serves limited if any real purpose.

I mean let's be real: trying to get a global max DPS (which is what meters mainly measure) is the sign of a wannabe, since real top raiders know that you want controlled situational DPS (high at some times, restrained at others, and so on). Adaptive thinking/play is the sign of a top player in general, and how exactly a meter encourages that in anyway shape or form for most people has not been explained here. Oh yes, because you can use them to "shame" underperformers -- who usually have little or nothing to do with a wipe. Let's be honest: wipes are caused in raids here far more by OVER DPSing than under.

In that sense, what useful purpose do they serve that even remotely counters their destructive potential in the hands of morons? That's right, none.

OTOH, will we see them? Probably, thanks in part to a coder doing what coders usually do: deciding to unilaterally "fix" the things he found problematic about the UI, with absolutely no thought to the unintended consequences of his "fix".

Group dps meters matter most to epeening lewt dudes ... those who want to embarrass people, and tell them they "suck" or are a "fail" or "don't belong" or are "utter bumbling idiots" ... those who try to impress everyone with their meaningless high dps scores. That behavior harms the community and should not be encouraged.

@Bradd

So you're telling me that you want to group with people that don't know how to play their class, don't read up on fights, and put out immensely poor DPS or HPS? You must have never grouped with people that put out pitiful dps or heals and let people die or they die themselves thereby making the fight much harder and longer than it should have been.

If you truly want to group with people like that then more power to you, but denying others of the opportunity to gauge another's performance is wrong. Especially since performance determines success.

Originally Posted by str8tschut3r

@Bradd

So you're telling me that you want to group with people that don't know how to play their class, don't read up on fights, and put out immensely poor DPS or HPS? You must have never grouped with people that put out pitiful dps or heals and let people die or they die themselves thereby making the fight much harder and longer than it should have been.

If you truly want to group with people like that then more power to you, but denying others of the opportunity to JUDGE another's performance is wrong. Especially since performance determines success.

FTFY...

excluding someone from a group based on your judgement on whether or not they are worthy...is morally and socially wrong.

also in lotro....putting out maximum possible heals/dps/threat does not always = success.

i have done things with PUGS that organized exclusive judgmental (oh you dont have the virtue slotted..FAIL..kick) groups could not.

teamwork > performance rating any day of the week.

Originally Posted by str8tschut3r

@Bradd

So you're telling me that you want to group with people that don't know how to play their class, don't read up on fights, and put out immensely poor DPS or HPS? You must have never grouped with people that put out pitiful dps or heals and let people die or they die themselves thereby making the fight much harder and longer than it should have been.

If you truly want to group with people like that then more power to you, but denying others of the opportunity to gauge another's performance is wrong. Especially since performance determines success.

Meters do very little to make you a better player (and sometimes make you a worse player), and at the same time cause some people to be jerks ... telling others that they "suck" or are a "fail" or "don't belong" or are "utter bumbling idiots".

To answer your question directly, I prefer to play with people who know how to play their class, learn the encounters, and at the same time are decent people to be around. In other words, I prefer the members of my group to be good players and good people. In all honesty, if forced to make a choice, I would prefer to group with someone still learning his class, than a pompous epeening jerk.

In regard to player ability, people who worry about the meters will often neglect the non-DPS aspects of their class, spam AOEs when not appropriate, and/or neglect controling their aggro - in order to top the meter (or appease some jerk who is obsessed with the meter results). This leads to poorer play in general. As Nirsul indicated, "meters aren't used by nor will they be abused by "hardcores" or the top raiders. We don't need them ... let's be real: trying to get a global max DPS (which is what meters mainly measure) is the sign of a wannabe, since real top raiders know that you want controlled situational DPS (high at some times, restrained at others, and so on). Adaptive thinking/play is the sign of a top player in general, and how exactly a meter encourages that in anyway shape or form for most people has not been explained here..."

The best players do not need meters and understand how little they actually show. Meters are not a good method to judge the quality of the player. If you judge people by their dps meter output, it is a reflection on your knowledge, not their ability.

Originally Posted by Darej

FTFY...

excluding someone from a group based on your judgement on whether or not they are worthy...is morally and socially wrong.

also in lotro....putting out maximum possible heals/dps/threat does not always = success.

i have done things with PUGS that organized exclusive judgmental (oh you dont have the virtue slotted..FAIL..kick) groups could not.

teamwork > performance rating any day of the week.

Are you telling me you've never kicked anyone from a group because they didn't work well in the group?

Originally Posted by FyreBrand

Are you telling me you've never kicked anyone from a group because they didn't work well in the group?

kicking someone because they dont work well with the group is NOT the same as kicking someone because their gearscore or heal/dps/threat stats dont meet up to some arbitrary standard.

besides the only time ive ever kicked someone was because they were not courteous.

i have always helped those willing to learn.

also i would never be part of a kin who did otherwise.

nor would i ever associate with anyone so rude.

Originally Posted by Darej

kicking someone because they dont work well with the group is NOT the same as kicking someone because their gearscore or heal/dps/threat stats dont meet up to some arbitrary standard.

besides the only time ive ever kicked someone was because they were not courteous.

i have always helped those willing to learn.

also i would never be part of a kin who did otherwise.

nor would i ever associate with anyone so rude.

You didn't say anything about gear score, you said whether they were worthy or not. If you kick someone they're not worthy of being in your group, for whatever subjective reason you decide qualifies. If someone is performing well or not is subjective, as is being courteous, as is traiting properly, as is teamwork, and so many other things.

I do understand your point and I've mostly always started with a competent core group when I pug that brings in extras. Usually this means even incompetent players are 'good' enough to complete the quest or instance. However, I also know what it's like to have too many people that can't do what it takes to finish.

There isn't anything immoral about having to kick someone because they aren't fitting well. It's just immoral if people are mean about how they do it. I usually feel bad when someone is kicked and I'm sure I would feel like hell if I got kicked for being a detriment to the group, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. I want the group to succeed and have a good time. If a player isn't a fit for the group then that isn't as likely to happen.

I don't think there is anything wrong with some play style groups that want minimum dps, radiance, gear score, trait set, virtue set, and not wanting to play with people who don't fit that criteria. They should be allowed to play the way they want. I would likely get kicked from a group like that, which is fine, because that isn't how I like to play. I probably wouldn't keep someone in the group who made a big deal out of that either.

I'm very confident in the development team's ability to add greater functionality to the game, through Lua scripting, in a way that makes the game more fun. Look at what they've added so far. There is some really good stuff right now.

Originally Posted by FyreBrand

You didn't say anything about gear score, you said whether they were worthy or not. *snip*(rest of quote doesnt matter)

did you not read the post i was responding to?

the worthy or not bit was lifted from what i had quoted

that person was the one saying using addons allows one to judge another player based on a number....and he also said not allowing folks the ability to use such things to exclude other players was wrong.

i was responding to him saying that judging folks based on that was morally and socially wrong.

it has nothing to do with playstyle....it has to do with turning folks away just becuase they dont fit into your ideal.

if someone is missing something they might need...or is maybe traited wrong for what you are about to do...explain to them why..and ask them to fix it.

dont just kick them because they do not fit.

if over the course of an instance you notice a player is not performing up to par...take a moment to help them..dont berate them for being fail and kick them.

the great thing about lotro...is that every class is multi-dimensional...they are not one-trick-ponies..they can adapt to many situations...fill more then one role.

a good player knows this and can play their class regardless of situation..

a good player also knows weakness/strengths of other classes....

a great player imbues that knowledge on others who are in need of it.

Originally Posted by FyreBrand

I'm very confident in the development team's ability to add greater functionality to the game, through Lua scripting, in a way that makes the game more fun. Look at what they've added so far. There is some really good stuff right now.

I am not quite as confident. I am afraid we may be seeing the first step down a dangerous path, (as nirsul said) ... "thanks in part to a coder doing what coders usually do: deciding to unilaterally "fix" the things he found problematic about the UI, with absolutely no thought to the unintended consequences of his "fix"."

Hopefully, the Devs, that are so enamored with Addons, will stop and think about the consequences of additional functionality to both the game and the community. My fear is that they are having so much fun playing with their new toys, that they may not.

Originally Posted by Darej

did you not read the post i was responding to?

the worthy or not bit was lifted from what i had quoted

that person was the one saying using addons allows one to judge another player based on a number....and he also said not allowing folks the ability to use such things to exclude other players was wrong.

i was responding to him saying that judging folks based on that was morally and socially wrong.

it has nothing to do with playstyle....it has to do with turning folks away just becuase they dont fit into your ideal.

if someone is missing something they might need...or is maybe traited wrong for what you are about to do...explain to them why..and ask them to fix it.

dont just kick them because they do not fit.

if over the course of an instance you notice a player is not performing up to par...take a moment to help them..dont berate them for being fail and kick them.

the great thing about lotro...is that every class is multi-dimensional...they are not one-trick-ponies..they can adapt to many situations...fill more then one role.

a good player knows this and can play their class regardless of situation..

a good player also knows weakness/strengths of other classes....

a great player imbues that knowledge on others who are in need of it.

I did read the post you replied to and I think he's on a similar page as Arato; that is they have a more narrow and strict definition of what will or won't work for them and want to use combat tools to help make that clearer. I don't necessarily agree that is a good approach, or an approach I would be interested in, but I do think they have every right to play that way.

My point is that we all have criteria we base group selection on. We all have criteria we boot group players for. If we're going to be totally fair we would have an in game auto-selection process for grouping and would never be able to choose our groups, and we would only be able to leave them, not boot players. That isn't realistic, but hopefully illustrates my point that we all like to choose who we group with for whatever reasons. We may consider their reasons juvenile (and that is a valid opinion), but they can indulge in them if they want.

More importantly there are reasons to have these tools available to all play styles whether or not some people will use it as a filter. I can think of group instances and quests I've been in where I haven't been on my "A" game and have wondered why. I've been in places where I've had aggro or couldn't grab aggro and wondered why. I've been in situations where I've wondered how much more or less effective a certain build is compared to another I use.

It's possible some of these tools could make some content easier, and I'm sure Turbine considers that when implementing their scripting API. In fact I'm sure of it because they can kill scripts dynamically without having to perform a server reboot.

People should be allowed to play how they like with whom they like as long as it is within the CoC/ToS/EULA.

Originally Posted by FyreBrand

I do think they have every right to play that way.

I disagree with the way the leet raiders determine "worth" and thus who is "worthy" to be in their group, but I totally agree with you that they have the right to play that way. Removing their right to play the way they want would simply be removing my right to play the way I want.

However, I submit to you that the way I want to play has already been impacted by the leet raiders (aka min/maxers). Even str8tschut3r agreed with me that instance difficulty is increasing and that it's a natural side effect of the "players... of superior skill" burning through content more quickly. Meters will very likely result in further increases in instance difficulty (it certainly did in WoW; more on that below) as Turbine tries to maintain a certain challenge threshold for those leet raiders. This leaves the average player out in the cold and there's absolutely no hope for the below average performer.

(Btw, "below average" could be caused by a host of things from lack of time, resources, reflexes, experience, knowledge, practice, stable net connection i.e. satellite broadband, etc. None of these things makes that person of any less worth than anyone else. I've never booted a single player from any group I've been in charge of regardless of how bad they performed. In fact, the vast majority of the time I've successfully worked with the group in finding innovative solutions to beating the content even with the handicap.)

Originally Posted by FyreBrand

It's possible some of these tools could make some content easier, and I'm sure Turbine considers that when implementing their scripting API. In fact I'm sure of it because they can kill scripts dynamically without having to perform a server reboot.

It's possible some of these tools could make some content easier? Based on my WoW raiding experience, I say bet on it. And that's really at the heart of my warnings regarding meters.

Let's say the Lua devs add support for meters and for the sake of this discussion let's even say those same Lua devs fully understand the impact meters could have. That's not enough. The instance devs must also be on board because in very short order those instance devs will start seeing their content being beat faster than ever (they can pull stats for that stuff).

That's exactly what happened in WoW when mages (my main over there) using DPS and Threat meters could crank out insanely high sustained DPS to within a tiny fraction of a percent of the tank's threat (it was so tight that I remember that our tank would need to call out "taunt resist" to ensure that our next damage spell didn't send us over the top to #1 in threat). The same type of thing happened with priests/tree druids with healing/threat meters. Every class was impacted. Just like Blizzard, Turbine instance devs will need to dial up the difficulty even further to stay ahead of these min/maxers.

Turbine as a development team must come up with a team-wide approach if they introduce support for meters. I've previously suggested a means to that end that let's everyone have access or challenge, whichever they desire.

In case it was missed, here is my suggestion (with expanded explanations):

• Quest mode - Not overly challenging. Average players can defeat the content in one go with a minimum of deaths. Primarily used to complete quests, deeds, get housing trophies, etc. No loot of any special significance to include nothing that would give access to radiance gear.
• Normal mode - Similar in difficulty to Uru/CD back in the old days (which would mean some current instances would need to be dialed back a bit). Normal access to gear like radiance barter items, but nothing that stands above and beyond other loot in game.
• Hard mode - Not like current hard or challenge modes. These would be insanely difficult, but the rewards would be worth it. I'm talking unique orange gear here.

But as I've said before, Turbine doesn't appear interested in listening to the rest of us. They continue to ratchet up end game instance difficulty to the point that my core group of 3 players (minstrel, guardian, and hunter started over 3 years ago) that have leveled together since level 1 will likely not complete the newest 3 man spaces (warg pens, etc.) in Mirkwood until we've outleveled it by 5 or more levels.

How do I know this? Because it was only recently after reaching 65 that we were finally able to complete Hall of Mirrors and Waterwheels in Moria. And that was with multiple wipes and did not include the final bosses or hard modes. That's pretty sad considering that we know how to play together so well that there's hardly ever any reason to situationally call out which FM to build, who should do what when things go south, etc. We're just not min/maxers and we're penalized for that playstyle decision.

I also have previously agreed that Turbine will eventually support meters, but I seriously doubt they'll implement my "tiered difficulty" solution or any other solution that gives the "less than leet" access to all the content (note: "content" = instance spaces/encounters/story and != gear). The rest of us just happen to pay the same amount of money as the leet raiders for access to that content.

Just wanted to chime in on "meters"...

Seeing as the community here has raided for the past three and a half years successfully, 12-manned Thorog (24-man raid) and 5-manned Thaurlach (12-man raid) on-level, both pre-Moria, and actually defeated the Blind-One on "hard mode" on-level pre-Mirkwood (an extreme challenge, triggered by going straight to the fight after the troll bosses without defeating the three other bosses afterwards), all without any meters... just how will such tools improve players? I fail to see any possible significant improvements...

Also, the most important thing in LOTRO is not to be "the best", but to have fun. Meters may appear to make things more fun in a way, but the only place where it may be genuine fun is within the appropiate player groups (and even then only when used responsibly). If there is something which makes things fun for one player but at the same time directly decreases how much fun another player is having (ie. misuse of a meter), such a thing should not be permitted ingame.

Another thing... in a recent dev chat earlier this month, it was clearly stated that they (the devs) did not want any plugins which would "trivialize" the content they create. Threat meters happen to do just that... so don't expect to see that kind of meter any time soon.

Originally Posted by Thoroval

I disagree with the way the leet raiders determine "worth" and thus who is "worthy" to be in their group, but I totally agree with you that they have the right to play that way. Removing their right to play the way they want would simply be removing my right to play the way I want.

However, I submit to you that the way I want to play has already been impacted by the leet raiders (aka min/maxers). Even str8tschut3r agreed with me that instance difficulty is increasing and that it's a natural side effect of the "players... of superior skill" burning through content more quickly. Meters will very likely result in further increases in instance difficulty (it certainly did in WoW; more on that below) as Turbine tries to maintain a certain challenge threshold for those leet raiders. This leaves the average player out in the cold and there's absolutely no hope for the below average performer.

(Btw, "below average" could be caused by a host of things from lack of time, resources, reflexes, experience, knowledge, practice, stable net connection i.e. satellite broadband, etc. None of these things makes that person of any less worth than anyone else. I've never booted a single player from any group I've been in charge of regardless of how bad they performed. In fact, the vast majority of the time I've successfully worked with the group in finding innovative solutions to beating the content even with the handicap.)



It's possible some of these tools could make some content easier? Based on my WoW raiding experience, I say bet on it. And that's really at the heart of my warnings regarding meters.

Let's say the Lua devs add support for meters and for the sake of this discussion let's even say those same Lua devs fully understand the impact meters could have. That's not enough. The instance devs must also be on board because in very short order those instance devs will start seeing their content being beat faster than ever (they can pull stats for that stuff).

That's exactly what happened in WoW when mages (my main over there) using DPS and Threat meters could crank out insanely high sustained DPS to within a tiny fraction of a percent of the tank's threat (it was so tight that I remember that our tank would need to call out "taunt resist" to ensure that our next damage spell didn't send us over the top to #1 in threat). The same type of thing happened with priests/tree druids with healing/threat meters. Every class was impacted. Just like Blizzard, Turbine instance devs will need to dial up the difficulty even further to stay ahead of these min/maxers.

Turbine as a development team must come up with a team-wide approach if they introduce support for meters. I've previously suggested a means to that end that let's everyone have access or challenge, whichever they desire.

In case it was missed, here is my suggestion (with expanded explanations):

• Quest mode - Not overly challenging. Average players can defeat the content in one go with a minimum of deaths. Primarily used to complete quests, deeds, get housing trophies, etc. No loot of any special significance to include nothing that would give access to radiance gear.
• Normal mode - Similar in difficulty to Uru/CD back in the old days (which would mean some current instances would need to be dialed back a bit). Normal access to gear like radiance barter items, but nothing that stands above and beyond other loot in game.
• Hard mode - Not like current hard or challenge modes. These would be insanely difficult, but the rewards would be worth it. I'm talking unique orange gear here.

But as I've said before, Turbine doesn't appear interested in listening to the rest of us. They continue to ratchet up end game instance difficulty to the point that my core group of 3 players (minstrel, guardian, and hunter started over 3 years ago) that have leveled together since level 1 will likely not complete the newest 3 man spaces (warg pens, etc.) in Mirkwood until we've outleveled it by 5 or more levels.

How do I know this? Because it was only recently after reaching 65 that we were finally able to complete Hall of Mirrors and Waterwheels in Moria. And that was with multiple wipes and did not include the final bosses or hard modes. That's pretty sad considering that we know how to play together so well that there's hardly ever any reason to situationally call out which FM to build, who should do what when things go south, etc. We're just not min/maxers and we're penalized for that playstyle decision.

I also have previously agreed that Turbine will eventually support meters, but I seriously doubt they'll implement my "tiered difficulty" solution or any other solution that gives the "less than leet" access to all the content (note: "content" = instance spaces/encounters/story and != gear). The rest of us just happen to pay the same amount of money as the leet raiders for access to that content.

Keep in mind that there's a big difference between supporting HPS/DPS meters, ant threat meters - based off of nothing more than what we've seen pre-Lua. In game, we have a display of numbers for healing/damage - but threat itself has never been given a number at all. It's a completely hidden system that is, at best, described in terms such as "high" and "moderate".

This is important to note, because DPS/HPS meters will not trivialize content - but giving numbers to something that has been previously only viewed in abstract terms, and making that visible to the player would certainly do so.

Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia

Keep in mind that there's a big difference between supporting HPS/DPS meters, ant threat meters - based off of nothing more than what we've seen pre-Lua. In game, we have a display of numbers for healing/damage - but threat itself has never been given a number at all. It's a completely hidden system that is, at best, described in terms such as "high" and "moderate".

This is important to note, because DPS/HPS meters will not trivialize content - but giving numbers to something that has been previously only viewed in abstract terms, and making that visible to the player would certainly do so.

Technically, we can see our own damage/healing numbers - no one else's. So a personal meter would show us the information we already have access to. Group meters would show information we do not have access to.

Originally Posted by Bradd

Technically, we can see our own damage/healing numbers - no one else's. So a personal meter would show us the information we already have access to. Group meters would show information we do not have access to.

I'm talking about information that's available to a player, as opposed to information only available to the game itself. The former wouldn't result in any trivialization of content, while the later has a much greater chance of doing so.

Originally Posted by Chazcon

This is good stuff. There will be Lua add-ons in my future:

1) MailBlaster - Mail multiple items to the same recipient at once. Doesn't change the LOTRO mail functionality which limits one item per mail. But dragging 12 items into the MailBlaster window will automatically mail the 12 items in 12 separate mails to the recipient. All you have to do is compose one mail. It also keeps recent mail recipients in an easy to use and intuitive 'cloud' interface. click on a name, drag items or click to put them in the MailBlaster window, and send BOOM you're done.

2) Looter - Specify which items to loot by setting filters by name, or by level, or by value. Quickly auto loot corpses and Looter will only pick up what you want to pick up.

3) PackMan - Designate which pack an item goes into when you pick it up, or unequip it. Keep all your weapons in one pack. Keep potions in another. Keep part of a pack open so that you always have room. Lock items to a certain pack slot, so that no other items will be placed there and the slot is reserved for that one designated item.

I take it the Mailblaster plugin was never created? Sounds like a nice one, but haven't found it anywhere.