Thread: Ettenmoors Community Blog: Wednesday, 7/14/10

Note: If you're not familar with a blog title like this, the day and date are when the blog is posted (today!) and the contents are about the previous day's adventures.

Haven't done one of these in a while. So..... here!



Last night The White Hand had a great response to our Reaver raid with mostly rank 0-2 Reavers, some fantastic healing support and of course our veterans led by Tarbosh. If you’re a pvper, you really haven’t lived until you’ve seen 14 Reavers with their support in offensive mode slice and dice their way through a target, most often killing it before the majority of the group could even get a taste.

Look! It's Reaver Shing-Shing!



We spent a good portion of the beginning of our night hoofing it from one OP to another with no scout in our midst to keep eyes on our opponents. It was lucky for us the night started out slow so we could work out way through Blenderbus 101, exploding every NPC we came across. Not only that but we were lucky to not be faced against any ninjas as, very map light we would not have been able to get to a Keep in time to offer support to the other Creeps.



The epic winning battle of the night for the Blenderbus group took place at the Good TA map in location. Another couple Creeps were in the area and called out a large group of Freeps hitting that spot and since we were located just above near River outpost we turned and set off on foot to make our way to their aid. Cutting into each of our opponents like butter, one by one they fell to our blades.



After the river battle, and several skirmishes at various places on the map including a great one at Plains OP where Freeps used the ball-up-in-a-choke-point tactic to rip Creeps to shreds as they attempted to push up, we finally had to retreat and recover from our losses, again suffering with the time it takes for a soft reaver who dies easily and takes an eternity to run back from the rez circle. As we were finishing up a group of Freeps behind TR the announcement went out that a Relic had been stolen. Knowing with no maps there was no way we could manage running across the map to try to catch them, we moved up to Ost and started working through target after target. However with 33 Freeps on track there wasn’t much we could do to stop them and with most of our group dead we pulled back hoping for the best from the Creeps with eyes on the Relic itself but in the end, we weren’t enough and our support lacking in the ability to move across the map allowed the Relic to be captured.

Creeps now worked up from the loss, we worked together to slaughter Ost and all those inside it that challenged us picking the relic up in the face of our opposition and while the Blenderbus held the attention of the Freeps left on the field, it was delivered to safety back at its rightful home.

It didn’t take much longer after the Relic delivery for Freeps to gain in numbers yet again and push our raid down toward TR. Sensing their morale gaining and ours dwindling, we knew what it was time to do. The Blenderbus went back to the garage and Tarbosh’s 47 came out to play. Our food didn’t last as long as it had been, but they gave one hell of a fight while going down, only a handful or less pulling back to run away.

All told it was a great night of pvp from my vantage point. Big thank yous to the vet Creeps in our raid that sacrificed their lives, their keyboards and their patience to work with the greenies and as always, the rest of the Creeps on the field for their constant teamwork and open communication.

Originally Posted by romoen

Is that what you looked like the morning after?


A fun night indeed~ It was very much a state of war in the moors. Creeps behind every tree, freeps happening to swarm in from behind. Some pretty nonstop action regardless of where I was and who I was with. Even learned a few new tactics.

I'm just afraid of when all those reavers get "Charge"

Originally Posted by Anarionadama

Is that what you looked like the morning after?

I'm zoomed in all the way so I'm not in that shot, but apparently that's what he looks like the morning after and that's not much better!

Wasn't on too long last night, but ran around a bit. Not much of note really. I did get to see a Luc vs Reaver fight, was fun to watch.

Kind of lost a friend today to drama and am kind of bummed about that. Drama sucks

Very nice screenshots!! Sinn told me about this happening, looked like you had a blast.



Cjunk did have a blenderbus lite group later in the night. Just 5 of us R3 through R8, Had a real good time kicking Uht out of DG.

We lasted about half an hour in DG with the tyrant, chieftans, and creeps on us. Thanks to the main raid holding the door downstairs. Although there isn't much you can do to stop a reaver from charging through, once that was figured out, was amazing watching people get back on their reaver alts to charge up to us.

FFS Foy, resize your screen shots.

Originally Posted by jebus5434

We lasted about half an hour in DG with the tyrant, chieftans, and creeps on us. Thanks to the main raid holding the door downstairs. Although there isn't much you can do to stop a reaver from charging through, once that was figured out, was amazing watching people get back on their reaver alts to charge up to us.

Wow, had no idea it was reaver night in the moors. We (CJunk) decided to come reaver on Landy randomly. We fought around PoP for a long while after all the other creeps left, getting some kills, picking off the small group running around...and kept answering the OOC keep checks with "they're still at PoP".

Since we were still roaming the area we saw the main freep group head to DG. Once we heard there was a group on the Tyrant, we did a few more attacks on the Gate and then eventually just charged up to the Tyrant area and proceeded to have a series of fights up there, taking out the RK, LM, RK, RK, then the wipe....

Not sure if you were referring to us on the swapping comment, but we didn't swap to alts; We had been on those reavers all night.

Mostly it was Mawz, Torque and our 4-5 reavers up there with ya, so i'm not really sure who else popped in that I didn't see. I was really surprised not to see more wargs up there, guess they were saving sprint for escapes.

Man, the only thing worse than having to scroll through Foy's big *** screenies is having to do it twice! Thanks Moof.

P.S. The majority of our Reavers were Rank 0-2 and we were on them all night until we swapped to our mains at about 10pm est so I'm not sure what group of Reaver "alts" he's talking about either.

That was as enjoyable a time as I've had in the Moors.

Due to this event, for most of the evening I felt like I was going through a cheese grater

It was very neat, if slightly traumatizing, to see all the reavers out and observe their slicing and dicing.

*Vows to stop gaining Ale Association Reputation (Try saying that 3 times fast) and get back to fighting

That was a lot of reavers. And I noticed that when they attack, they make a sort of mechanical chewing sound.

Blenderbus? More like RENOWNFEST!

I think last night was the first time in a long time that I've seen a freep raid last for a couple hours without completely wiping. We spanked the "blenderbus" behind TR until they got tired and got on their regulars, and then spanked them some more. We managed to withdraw in good order and move around the map to take the Plains outpost where we preceeded to issue more spankage through 2 waves of assault. Then we moved to DG where again we held the doorway for a good 30 minutes throwing back wave after wave of creeps from front and behind.

Creeps only managed to down the raid when we were sniffing out Lugz and trying to withdraw in good order. I believe in the few hours I had the raid we gained over 4k renown, several people ranked, rating went up drastically, and we just had ourselves a good ol' time. Great night for pvmp! Oh and stop targetting me. The sneak attack reaver assasination squad that was trying to down me outside PoP was hilarious!

Note: The action around the Plains OP is a great example of how the moors should be. No maps in sight, creeps or freeps getting wiped and having to come back across the map. No constant reinforcements. Supply lines getting hit for those coming back or just joining and there was a real sense of accomplishment for actually pushing and driving the opposing force off...especially during prime time.

We really need to ditch the maps and find another way. Even if we all have to walk...though I'm sure there is a better way than that.

Sucks that I missed this. Sounds like both sides had a good time.

Originally Posted by Psychego

Blenderbus? More like RENOWNFEST!

I think last night was the first time in a long time that I've seen a freep raid last for a couple hours without completely wiping. We spanked the "blenderbus" behind TR until they got tired and got on their regulars, and then spanked them some more. We managed to withdraw in good order and move around the map to take the Plains outpost where we preceeded to issue more spankage through 2 waves of assault. Then we moved to DG where again we held the doorway for a good 30 minutes throwing back wave after wave of creeps from front and behind.

Creeps only managed to down the raid when we were sniffing out Lugz and trying to withdraw in good order. I believe in the few hours I had the raid we gained over 4k renown, several people ranked, rating went up drastically, and we just had ourselves a good ol' time. Great night for pvmp! Oh and stop targetting me. The sneak attack reaver assasination squad that was trying to down me outside PoP was hilarious!

Note: The action around the Plains OP is a great example of how the moors should be. No maps in sight, creeps or freeps getting wiped and having to come back across the map. No constant reinforcements. Supply lines getting hit for those coming back or just joining and there was a real sense of accomplishment for actually pushing and driving the opposing force off...especially during prime time.

We really need to ditch the maps and find another way. Even if we all have to walk...though I'm sure there is a better way than that.

Pass the bong when you're done please

Originally Posted by Olympic

Pass the bong when you're done please

Ha ha ha! We saw you fall several times Tarbosh my friend. One of the people in my raid even commented when we were on the ramp, "We've killed him 5 times already!" To which I replied, "keep killing him!" I made sure to switch around to others while you were bubbled and then you were always the biggest target of opportunity. As they say, "Tarbosh is always a good kill". Great night...really great night!

Originally Posted by Psychego

Blenderbus? More like RENOWNFEST!

I think last night was the first time in a long time that I've seen a freep raid last for a couple hours without completely wiping. We spanked the "blenderbus" behind TR until they got tired and got on their regulars, and then spanked them some more.

Only three of our 15-16 reavers had charge, which makes any fight against an army backed with pew-pew very difficult.

"Blenderbus" is a fun term we created due to the shredding of any target that was hit by our blender. Some of the raid swapped to regulars to balance out the fight once a substantial freep force was out and moves were made on relics/keeps. "Spanked" is quite a liberal term to use considering the outcome of those fights.

I was only out briefly before I had to go boozing with some hobbits, but had some fun little fights. Very pleased to see the late night small group fighting coming back, I may have to start going back out.

I wasn't around earlier, but looks like good times. All reaver groups are always so much fun!

FFS I missed REAVER NIGHT???????? For real????

Originally Posted by Lordchurchill

FFS I missed REAVER NIGHT???????? For real????

For real for real.

Was a really fun night last night. I must have died 30 times overall. The reaver raid was doing it's best when 2/3 of the raid was rank 2 or below with no maps. We had to run every where.

The fight in Ost and behind TR was really fun. Died quite alot, got some kills,. The best thing I remember from that fight was after we switched over to our mains, when the Freeps got a substantial size force, I was back on my warg. I was behind the freep raid above Goldie trying to keep an eye on them and to call out positions for the creeps in OOC. Next thing I know I see Leekae running up the hill all alone all the way to the one shotters. I was laughing so hard I forgot to call it out and get a screenie. Good times, good fights.

Originally Posted by TobycatofBree

Next thing I know I see Leekae running up the hill all alone all the way to the one shotters. I was laughing so hard I forgot to call it out and get a screenie. Good times, good fights.

I had a raid so I had to go. Trust me, it wasnt because I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by Baslin

Only three of our 15-16 reavers had charge, which makes any fight against an army backed with pew-pew very difficult.

"Blenderbus" is a fun term we created due to the shredding of any target that was hit by our blender. Some of the raid swapped to regulars to balance out the fight once a substantial freep force was out and moves were made on relics/keeps. "Spanked" is quite a liberal term to use considering the outcome of those fights.

Well said, DnD.

The term originated from the question we formed: "What does one call a group of reavers?" As we all know, a group of Defilers is called a "Gaggle." After much deliberation, and some great suggestions, we decided on "Blender" for the obvious connotations.

However, it is definitely a stretch to say you 'spanked' anyone. I believe that detracts from the really excellent fight we had, AT LAST, on the Ost Hill. Both sides brought it; as a warleader I measure 'epicness' in fights by the number of times my rez comes up without dropping combat. This fight was a Three, at least. It is also no great feat to destroy a mob of unranked reavers - the raid was full of greens and blues with only 4/20 supporting healers. If you've never seen what happens to non-sigs in heavy fire, you should play the one warleader trying to keep her group of five such reavers alive. Then you'll understand.

That being said, we as a tribe were all good-natured about it, because what can we expect? We were out there to have fun, and we did. We even did really well with our noob handicap before we got the Big Guns out... Ophy's screenshots depict a very even battle, WITH a ranger, which we won in all our blue-dot glory.

What gets me, and is one reason I very, very rarely visit the forums anymore, is that it always has to be 'one side spanked the other.' It's never 'good fighting by all' when the 'good fighting' actually existed. Oh we get the posts that congratulate creeps for their great fights... but that usually happens when we die a lot. Look back on the blue-dot / green-dot reaver raid and the ensuing posts and you get the picture. Just one of many fine examples.

Originally Posted by leekofthewood

I had a raid so I had to go. Trust me, it wasnt because I'm afraid.

Plus if you got too close to him he would blow his little tootie toot and then have his friends pile on you while you swayed helpless in the breeze. *grins*

Originally Posted by ilyahna

Well said, DnD.

The term originated from the question we formed: "What does one call a group of reavers?" As we all know, a group of Defilers is called a "Gaggle." After much deliberation, and some great suggestions, we decided on "Blender" for the obvious connotations.

However, it is definitely a stretch to say you 'spanked' anyone. I believe that detracts from the really excellent fight we had, AT LAST, on the Ost Hill. Both sides brought it; as a warleader I measure 'epicness' in fights by the number of times my rez comes up without dropping combat. This fight was a Three, at least. It is also no great feat to destroy a mob of unranked reavers - the raid was full of greens and blues with only 4/20 supporting healers. If you've never seen what happens to non-sigs in heavy fire, you should play the one warleader trying to keep her group of five such reavers alive. Then you'll understand.

That being said, we as a tribe were all good-natured about it, because what can we expect? We were out there to have fun, and we did. We even did really well with our noob handicap before we got the Big Guns out... Ophy's screenshots depict a very even battle, WITH a ranger, which we won in all our blue-dot glory.

What gets me, and is one reason I very, very rarely visit the forums anymore, is that it always has to be 'one side spanked the other.' It's never 'good fighting by all' when the 'good fighting' actually existed. Oh we get the posts that congratulate creeps for their great fights... but that usually happens when we die a lot. Look back on the blue-dot / green-dot reaver raid and the ensuing posts and you get the picture. Just one of many fine examples.

I wonder what it is that makes freeps want to spank us. hmm, a wee bit kinky.

Originally Posted by ilyahna

Well said, DnD.

The term originated from the question we formed: "What does one call a group of reavers?" As we all know, a group of Defilers is called a "Gaggle." After much deliberation, and some great suggestions, we decided on "Blender" for the obvious connotations.

However, it is definitely a stretch to say you 'spanked' anyone. I believe that detracts from the really excellent fight we had, AT LAST, on the Ost Hill. Both sides brought it; as a warleader I measure 'epicness' in fights by the number of times my rez comes up without dropping combat. This fight was a Three, at least. It is also no great feat to destroy a mob of unranked reavers - the raid was full of greens and blues with only 4/20 supporting healers. If you've never seen what happens to non-sigs in heavy fire, you should play the one warleader trying to keep her group of five such reavers alive. Then you'll understand.

That being said, we as a tribe were all good-natured about it, because what can we expect? We were out there to have fun, and we did. We even did really well with our noob handicap before we got the Big Guns out... Ophy's screenshots depict a very even battle, WITH a ranger, which we won in all our blue-dot glory.

What gets me, and is one reason I very, very rarely visit the forums anymore, is that it always has to be 'one side spanked the other.' It's never 'good fighting by all' when the 'good fighting' actually existed. Oh we get the posts that congratulate creeps for their great fights... but that usually happens when we die a lot. Look back on the blue-dot / green-dot reaver raid and the ensuing posts and you get the picture. Just one of many fine examples.

Well I suppose the touchiness was to be expected. I gush about the "epicness" of the freeps holding the line and you will say we weren't that epic. Typical 'my side is better than your side' banter. Seriously though...my comment on the blenderbus was a lighthearted joke since we did soak up a ton of reknown off you guys once the raid got going. Yes...for the very reason that you were green and blue. So...let your lightheartedness continue on the subject, k?

As for the rest, well "spank" is a relative term to the side that uses it. Over the past month or so that I've been back at it I'd have to say that to be able to stand toe to toe and achieve a K/D ratio in our favor IS epic. That isn't to say we put the hurt on your raid alone or that you didn't get many kills on us or that you had to rez a lot or not, but from my perspective as the raid leader the creeps were hurting far more than us. We had a really great mix, the best I've seen in a while. It wasn't soft, we may have only had 4-5 hunters at the Ost battle. We had Captains in 3 of the groups, guardians and minis in all 4, a mix of champs, loremasters, burgs and wardens to fill out the rest. I don't think we had a RK all night though, so that's kinda sad.

These guys were pro! Everyone knew their job...cap buffs, tanks actually tanking (with actual shields!), minis healing and everyone was on my target. There was good communication, no panic, people calling their skills (rez, thorns, SW) and calmly calling out creep movment that they saw. We were able to stand even when flanked with creeps in the middle of us and not run away as is the usual freep M.O.. So from my perspective...we had the epicness for the first time in a good while. I hope it's the turn of the tide we've been looking for...and it might be. Each time we seemed to lose someone from the raid, someone had a friend or kinmate that was coming in and it stayed full into the night.

So, say what you will about the night...the freeps had it going on and were in great spirits (mostly due to not wiping every 10 minutes). I look forward to leading these people again...at least until a certain space type war game with laser swords comes out.

...but yeah...good fighting all! Ooh lookey...I said it!

I think the best part about the night was that despite the fact we died a ton (like you pointed out) we still had fun; we still came back at you and we kept it up as long as we could until we had to leave. If not for employment obligations I think most of us would have stayed long after we called it a night.

So I guess we should thank you for spanking us. It's a nice change of pace when we can be on even ground with our opponents or even under their foot. Here's to hoping it keeps up when we're on our mains or worked up alts!

Anyway, here's a short video I put together from some clips I got of the Reaver group. Sorry it wasn't more; I suck at Reaver so far so I was often too distracted trying to fix my "you must face your target" issues to remember to start recording. That and I'm just not content with anything with my UI on anymore and I don't have this class' UI memorized yet, lol.

Important: Make sure you upgrade the video quality if your comp. can handle it!

I like how creeps feel sad for themselves when they have no maps and have to run everywhere.

awww, you poor babies. It's a lot more fun to play with a giant unfair advantage the rest of the time isn't it?

I see plenty of "good fighting" and "thanks to both sides" in so many threads. Too bad it's missed so often because of negativity or the forum bosses giving pats on the back to themselves

Warning: Incoming rant...this isn't to belittle a playstyle, but more to vent my frustrations at the lack of fun to be had for my playstyle.

Meh.

I say both sides should get spanked.

While the zergs farm each other for mad renown/infamy I spent my night wandering the other 90% of the map seeing nothing until I'd get 3-4-5-10 map in on me and smoosh me into a fine paste.

I consider myself a pretty good soloer, given the limitations and advantages that my class brings. I also consider myself a knowlegable raider, but far from skilled (I have some habits that serve me VERY well solo, that wreck my survivability and efficiency in a raid).

Last night I got about 3Xs the renown, and about 5Xs the KBs, in a raid than I got the night before solo playing roughly the same amount of time.

So with considerably less skill/effort/risk I earned far more rewards.

/shrug

The big fights can be fun. But we NEED some more incentives for smaller group/solo play.

-----

Oh and btw...I had a really fun 2v2 last night before Legen/Lee got the raid going. I WISH those fights were more common and an empty map while EC/STAB is ground into dust under the feet of 99% of the players was a little less common.

Originally Posted by Thane9

Last night I got about 3Xs the renown, and about 5Xs the KBs, in a raid than I got the night before solo playing roughly the same amount of time.

So with considerably less skill/effort/risk I earned far more rewards.

While I understand your perspective and frustration, it is an unreasonable expectation to think that you would receive the same number of renown and KBs soloing as you would in a raid. It's just a volume issue. If there are 20 creeps in front of me in a group and I know where they are I am going to get more KBs and more renown than someone solo looking for stragglers

Again, I agree with the frustration level. The moors no longer supports soloing as a play style. There are just too many large groups and stealthed players running around ready to smash you for it. Soloing in the moors was one of my favorite parts of the game, I could put on some music, go into anti-social mode, hide in a bush or behind a tree to trade tells with a friend, and take my time doing it.

I've never enjoyed raiding but never thought that my "high risk" investment for soloing should yield comperable rewards to those who were fighting in raids.


Edit to add: The concept of "risk" in this game to me is tough too since, the player never dies and there are no longer repair fees

Originally Posted by PF-Grumpy

I've never enjoyed raiding but never thought that my "high risk" investment for soloing should yield comperable rewards to those who were fighting in raids.

I'd like to explore this comment.

Why not? Why shouldn't similar risk profiles yield similar results...all other things being equal...i.e. skill, rank etc. Furthermore why shouldn't HIGHER risk yield at least similar results.

This I don't understand. Why should 24 people running around get MORE rewards than 1 doing the exact same thing.

Let's set KBs aside for the moment...I only mentioned them becuase I'm so close to Battlemaster that I've been looking at them closely.

But for renown. Why should 24 killing an opponent get MORE renown than 1 killing the same opponent?

A raid already has a MASSIVE advantage with respect to your point, volume. Why does it need to be hard coded into the game to literally place a higher value on a raid kill than a solo kill?

Why should people who by ALL ways of measurement have far more "safer" gameplay yield MORE rewards?

Is there a "broken" issue surrounding the way leeching pays out? Absolutely. But IMHO more harm was done than was fixed by adding in the raid renown multiplier. And the ultimate harm was in how other mechanics/changes since the raid renown bonus have led to virtually NO incentive for moving around the map on foot in small numbers.

Additionally other reward structures favour raid/zerg level play. Tokens/DP etc.

It's like if kicking a field goal were worth 6 points with an extra point attempt awarded and a touchdown was worth only 3. It would lead to a gameplay experience that had FAR fewer plays and just a lot of kicking the field goals over and over and over. Would the kicker like it? Sure. But would it be good for the GAME? That's the real question.

I personally believe when there's a large incentive to play in ONE way...that it's bad for the game. There shouldn't be optimal gameplay paths in a soundly built game.

What if Hunters and BAs all of a sudden had 2Xs the range, 10Xs the damage per skill, 5Xs the power and 100,000 morale?

The game would become HvBA. And people who played other classes would be told too bad, change with the times, play a Hunter or a BA if you want to rank.

Note: I'm not asking for forced "balance". Not between playstyles, or classes, or sides, or populations. All I'm asking for is that there not be any outliers that are seen as VASTLY superiour paths to success.

And unfortunately for a very long time, there's been two such paths. Zerg up, or leech from the zerg (depending on your class).

I'd just like to see steps maybe make OTHER options look a little more appealing to players.

Edit: Risk = cost in terms of my analysis. I use those terms pretty much interchangably. And one of, maybe THE primary, cost is time. Time to achieve X reward. Is clearly the "cost" mechanism in most MMO games, including this one.

Staying positive...

You have to look back in order to look forward on this I believe.

You always kick and scream about maps Luc, yet they are a necessary incentive to get Creep out and about roaming for map items. Not everyone groups for map collections and while you try to discourage maps as a form of travel you are discouraging the players that will gather items for them.

Freeps need to have crafting items that they can gather in the Moors also. Creeps in the past counted on Freeps to enter the Moors to find crafting items so they could get solo kills just like you always talk about for yourself.

A con system needs to be in place so that player like you are not visting the slug pits to find easy targets that you cannot find anywhere else on the map. We need a system in place that will get the level 40 Freeps back to the Moors so that they can effectively fight the lower ranked Creeps while being protected by a con system that will not allow higher ranks and levels to attack them. Along with a con system you would get better renown/fame for your higher kill levels and ranks.

These are just a few off the top of my head. Doing just a few of these types of things as the game progresses would insure that there would be fair fights for all levels and ranks of Moors players.

Didnt you are right there is no risk of death in this game any longer, just perhaps the frustration that you actually died. Belive it or not I just had this discussion the other day, when Freeps had repair costs they absolutely played a better game then the mostly do now. That may just be and I believe it is the reason why so many of us older Creep players consider Warsong a great Freep leader.

Sorry, to clarify about easy targets. I should say that the targets for a level 65 Freep at the slugs is easy, if we could get our players roaming more a level 65 player like Luc could find a more evenly matched Creep out and about which would definately not be as easy, since we can agree most of us are looking for a fight that last longer than 3 secs.

To repsond to your renown issue Luc. I agree that 110 renown should be divided 24 ways if a raid kills 1 target, while the soloer should get all 110 renown. That system is broken. However. even when we ~were~ getting 1 renown per raid kill in the moors, people did a lot of large scale fighting though.

This topic brings up an interesting question.

Since you get more reknown from raiding, why do I ALWAYS see higher ranked reavers/BAs running solo alongside the main raid instead of with them? Wouldn't they get MORE infamies grouping with them?

Originally Posted by Sujae

You always kick and scream about maps Luc, yet they are a necessary incentive to get Creep out and about roaming for map items. Not everyone groups for map collections and while you try to discourage maps as a form of travel you are discouraging the players that will gather items for them. .

I'm going to clarify something here. And I hope that you can put ALL preconceptions about me and my thoughts aside for 5 seconds to really hear what I'm saying.

I've NEVER had a problem with maps. I have a problem with how they're used.

I love the fact that creeps have core mechanic differences from freeps. In the past maps were a nice offset for creeps...freeps were far more powerful vs npcs, but creeps could respond far faster to a keep push. It added a different but balanced type of situation to the mix.

Then came the "points are more important than good fights" era of "superiour tactics" and the map-ins started. This DID coincide with more creeps having maps...just a flat higher %. But IMHO the % wasn't the real issue. The real issue was the playerbase changed their attitude towards gameplay. It became not only fair play, but encouraged play, to map in on and OBLITERATE smaller groups/solos.

Now, this may not apply to you, or ANYONE you know. But I know for a fact, that at least with respect to MY gameplay...that this happens now more than ever by SEVERAL orders of magnitude. AND it's happening at a time when creeps are stronger than ever.

I was VERY rarely called out by solos when creeps were vastly underpowered. Now I get called out routinely by R9+ creeps when in fact often they're tougher than I am...cooldowns being the key issue.

And I KNOW they're callouts. I've had plenty of people playing creepside report to me the next day how I was getting called out a lot. Or I'll wander an area for literally 30-40-60 minutes and see NOTHING only to spot ONE...who dances around, delays, and purposefully doesn't engage me until a few seconds before a zerg comes running at me from a map in point.

The maps aren't the problem. They make the problem worse. But they're not the problem.

As for your point re: quests to get the maps. YES. A MILLION TIMES YES!!! I'm very much in favour of more quests that will incentivise people to move around the map, solo, small groups, raids ANYTHING that encourages movement.

Originally Posted by Sujae

Freeps need to have crafting items that they can gather in the Moors also. Creeps in the past counted on Freeps to enter the Moors to find crafting items so they could get solo kills just like you always talk about for yourself. .

I agree. There needs to be more incentivised "goals" for solo/small groups out there. Absolutely positively 100% agree. Crafting, coin, gear, I don't even care WHAT the incentive is. There needs to be more of them and we'd have a much more diverse, dynamic and vibrant PvMP zone for it.

Originally Posted by Sujae

A con system needs to be in place so that player like you are not visting the slug pits to find easy targets that you cannot find anywhere else on the map. We need a system in place that will get the level 40 Freeps back to the Moors so that they can effectively fight the lower ranked Creeps while being protected by a con system that will not allow higher ranks and levels to attack them. Along with a con system you would get better renown/fame for your higher kill levels and ranks. .

Meh. I'd rather see the moors closed to <L60s and have green creeps raised up in power a bit than encouraging weaker freeps to come out.

I understand your point. I just disagree with how it should be achieved. I think my thoughts on PvMP freep gear and boosting creep power levels has been talked about in numerous threads before. I'll defer to that position.

Originally Posted by Sujae

Didnt you are right there is no risk of death in this game any longer, just perhaps the frustration that you actually died. Belive it or not I just had this discussion the other day, when Freeps had repair costs they absolutely played a better game then the mostly do now. That may just be and I believe it is the reason why so many of us older Creep players consider Warsong a great Freep leader.

1> Be careful. It's bordering on offensive when you say things like "...played a better game then the mostly do now". I know if I made a comment about creeps like this many people would jump all over me about being offensive.

2> To your point. Creeps have ALWAYS had less to lose by dying than freeps. It's a mindset that I always considered I share with a lot of creepside players. I do not think it's necessarily a bad thing to have a reduced value of death in the moors. If anything MY biggest concern is when freeps and creeps are too afraid of dying.

Oh and btw...I go through more money/time costs in consumables than I ever did in repair bills.

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I hope you can consider my point without it being advesarial. In the end I think we both want the same thing, and that is to have a fun PvMP game to play. And I certainly indend no malice or negative bent on anything I've said.

Originally Posted by Meijha

This topic brings up an interesting question.

Since you get more reknown from raiding, why do I ALWAYS see higher ranked reavers/BAs running solo alongside the main raid instead of with them? Wouldn't they get MORE infamies grouping with them?

Those players can use AoEs and DoTs to tag players and earn infamy from the raid's kills. So a BA can stand back and Fire DoT three different freeps while the raid kills them and soak in the infamy.

Originally Posted by PF-Grumpy

Those players can use AoEs and DoTs to tag players and earn infamy from the raid's kills. So a BA can stand back and Fire DoT three different freeps while the raid kills them and soak in the infamy.

Shhhhh don't give away all of my secrets nub.......

Originally Posted by Meijha

This topic brings up an interesting question.

Since you get more reknown from raiding, why do I ALWAYS see higher ranked reavers/BAs running solo alongside the main raid instead of with them? Wouldn't they get MORE infamies grouping with them?

Because leeching is still profitable if you hit hard enough based on the dps model of renown rewards.

AND those reavers are able to be mobile/survivable enough to also get a lot of infamy in SOLOS near and around the big fights. Whereas if most freep classes tried that we'd be stomped too fast and take too long to get back to the fight.

IMHO...stress...this is just my opinion.

BAs are best off leeching...old school sit in the middle of the pack ungrouped. Unless they want rating in addition to renown...in which case one could argue for raiding up.

Reavers are best solo, but "near" the raid. Kill anything that moves. Note the average rating of these reavers despite the MASSIVE infamy gains is reasonably low.

Wargs have a lot of options, same with Burgs. Too many variables to discuss here.

Most other classes, freep and creep, are still best served IN the raid due to the massively increased survivability and huge volume of kills that often occurs in raid on raid action.

There's a lot of variables at work...including how freeps/creeps are rezzed, how maps come into play for returning to the combat zone, and overall power in terms of being able to blow up, or at least significantly "tag" targets.