Thread: CC in the moors

I know I have read tons of these threads before... but I am really not trying to derail other threads any more than needed. :-)

Soooo....

Here is my take as someone who plays a burg, champ, captain, and a warg with some level of proficiency in the moors. Definitely not the best at any of the classes.. but I know the mechanics of my classes for sure.

How a warg gets a stun (not even talking about CJs here)
1. Stealth
2. Pounce
Those two steps (really just 1 step since most wargs are stealthed long before they decide to pounce someone) generate a nice little 5 or 6 second stun on a single target. Assuming you pounce and run... and don't get hit... you can go back and do it again in 10 seconds to another target. Wargs... nice, simple, elegant.


Burg:
Mez (only works on humanoid and dragon types) 1 minute cooldown (can be 30 seconds) instantly broken on damage or bleed (can be traited for a 5 second cushion.)

8 second stun
1. Put a trick on someone (pops you out of stealth)
2. Apply the stun skill (and hope it isn't resisted hehe)

This skill has a cooldown of about 45 seconds. You have to be in close range (unstealthed) and you have to have an active trick on the target (dust in the eyes, etc)

Disabling gambles
Either done from stealth or with certain trick removals. Either way, it is just a mez (not a stun) and there is no promise that the gamble will be applied.

No doubt that burgs have more options on how to initiate a stun/mez... but they all come with cooldowns which typically last longer than the fight we're trying to win.


Champs:
We have 2 horns. One which we can trait up (at great expense) to do a nice 10 second stun to up to 6 targets. (has a hefty cooldown... 15 minutes if I remember correctly.) The other... it is an AOE skill which requires all our fervor to use (it takes some time to build up to it.) It is a 3 or 4 second stun and it really only good for interrupts.

Captain:
1 on defeat skill which can be traited to stun 4 targets for 5 seconds.



IS CC OP IN THE MOORS??
I think it is abused in group situaitons. But I think it is such an intregal part of the LM and burg classes that to take it away would destroy the viability of those classes out there. A burg would never win any duel without CC.. period.

So here is some interesting game mechanics though... we use CC because people run (on both sides) when they start getting hit. We want them to stand still (or not get into the huge group of NPCs) so we can kill them. Silly human controlled players rarely do that.

However... why do we run? It is because we know we'll be CCd to death! So where does it start? Chicken or the egg?

Personally... I think that CC is realistic in the moors. It is needed... and while it sucks to be grey barred... eh.. it is part of the game.

Wargs have a CJ popping skill as well, able to be used out of stealth while IC. I can't remember the cool down right now (despite the fact I was just on my warg!) - is it 5 minutes? Anyway, its a decent CD.

I was intentionally not talking about CJs... only things you can pop out of. Burgs have a lot of ways to start a CJ as well.

Wargs have the 5 min cooldown insta-CJ and the CJ on a crit pounce from stealth.

Burgs have a 5 min cooldown insta-CJ usable anytime, a 5 min cooldown insta-cj usable only from stealth, and the ability to randomly (20%) generate a CJ when we start our critical hit chain.

If we're talking about NPCs... burgs can also use marbles and stun dust. (marbles CJ, stun dust stun)

But.. this is about fair CC... stuff you can have some chance of getting out of. Not CJs... you're stuck in them until they wear off... period.

-matt

Originally Posted by bigmatt19

I was intentionally not talking about CJs... only things you can pop out of.

Righto, sorry about that!

I am all for banning burgs from the moors completely. They are mostly hobbits, and their silly little battle shouts cause creeps to fall over laughing far too often. This leads to an open chance for the freep raid to fall on you with ease.

LM's need to be sent to some sort of loonie bin. Advanced sticky gourd confuses me. A class given virtual napalm that only hurts one side? (smart bomb?)

Captains are an afront to their name, and a bit if a wonder at the same time. How do they swing those huge halberds in the middle of a crowd and only hit one target? And I am quite sure that the only thing stunning about a captain may be his breath. I think that a captain should be changed to a major, or perhaps a minor.

Originally Posted by Aedon

I am all for banning burgs from the moors completely. They are mostly hobbits, and their silly little battle shouts cause creeps to fall over laughing far too often. This leads to an open chance for the freep raid to fall on you with ease.

LM's need to be sent to some sort of loonie bin. Advanced sticky gourd confuses me. A class given virtual napalm that only hurts one side? (smart bomb?)

Captains are an afront to their name, and a bit if a wonder at the same time. How do they swing those huge halberds in the middle of a crowd and only hit one target? And I am quite sure that the only thing stunning about a captain may be his breath. I think that a captain should be changed to a major, or perhaps a minor.

lmao... and on the same note... how does a champion swing his weapons so wildly and only hit enemies? hmmm... me thinks there's something afoot. hehe

Originally Posted by bigmatt19

lmao... and on the same note... how does a champion swing his weapons so wildly and only hit enemies? hmmm... me thinks there's something afoot. hehe

I suspect Hobbit trickery!!!

If you remove those skills, Then only the Ranged/Bleed Classes would be OP, then bleeds will be nerf and it's all spiraled out of control. SOMETHING has to be OP, but It will keep changing based on what is Complained about the most and most recent.

Just to clear up some tools for Stalkers currently....

Available Stuns:
Pounce (Rank 0 - 10s Cooldown)

Available Conjunctions:
Critical Pounce from stealth. (Rank 0 - Cooldown 10s)
Chance to proc a CJ from Cripple Bite + Pounce (Rank 0 - 10s Cooldown each)
Tendon Shred (Rank 3 - Cooldown 5m)

Nearly all classes with stuns have more skills available to stun but none have the chance of acquiring a conjunction as frequently as Stalkers.

Originally Posted by romoen

Just to clear up some tools for Stalkers currently....

Available Stuns:
Pounce (Rank 0 - 10s Cooldown)

Available Conjunctions:
Critical Pounce from stealth. (Rank 0 - Cooldown 10s)
Chance to proc a CJ from Cripple Bite + Pounce (Rank 0 - 10s Cooldown each)
Tendon Shred (Rank 3 - Cooldown 5m)

Nearly all classes with stuns have more skills available to stun but none have the chance of acquiring a conjunction as frequently as Stalkers.

Then wargs must all be rounded up and euthanized. And seeing that the ranged will then be too OP, they too muct be curtailed. I suggest filling the Hoardale with quick drying cement and tossing in a few slices of bacon.

Originally Posted by Aedon

Then wargs must all be rounded up and euthanized. And seeing that the ranged will then be too OP, they too muct be curtailed. I suggest filling the Hoardale with quick drying cement and tossing in a few slices of bacon.

That's all well and good but how will you take care of the ranged classes?

Ok... to be clear... we all know that everyone thinks CJs are over powered. Ok.. I don't really... but the general community opinion is that they are... and I don't care to argue it.

This thread is about the "fair" stuns and the idea that all CC should be removed from the moors. That would include hunter traps, all the stuns, mezzes and fears.

Specifically... the champ AoE stun horn. The good stun is on a 15 minute cooldown. It is fine IMO. And besides... whenever my champ (or burg for that matter) get anywhere near anyone I only have time to get off 1 (maybe 2) skills before you all make me explode anyway. lol

Since I know I am going in to die... (since I find myself the only melee who generally commits to the target assist and doesn't care how far into the creep mass i run) I figure I may as well do something annoying in the process.

Yeah that horn either has to go, or Wargs need a new skill called "cram horn up Champs A@*." It can be on the same cool down timer as the champs horn and hit multiple champs at the same time.

Originally Posted by Aedon

Then wargs must all be rounded up and euthanized. And seeing that the ranged will then be too OP, they too muct be curtailed. I suggest filling the Hoardale with quick drying cement and tossing in a few slices of bacon.

Ummmmm. I was just clearing up the confusion on the Stalker skills. Didn't mean for lorebook information to cause that reaction.

*Stands over ------------ pouncival --------------- budhorn ------------- > here*

Originally Posted by Aedon

Wargs need a new skill called "cram horn up Champs A@*."

While I've got no clue why the sudden hatred for Champs, I can totally get on board with this idea.

Originally Posted by Aedon

Yeah that horn either has to go, or Wargs need a new skill called "cram horn up Champs A@*." It can be on the same cool down timer as the champs horn and hit multiple champs at the same time.

This is priceless really coming from a warg. I mean really... champs are what you are complaining about?

During the last week of play, 50 out of 570 (rounded) freeps were champs. That is 8% of the population. In all reality that means you have 3-5 champs on the map at any one time. However 200 out of 700 creeps were wargs (rounded) which is nearly 30% of the creep population. 30%!!! Oh right and wargs are a stealth class, I forgot.

So how can you be upset over some champ horns? Just stay 15m away from them, and when you hear it go off... pounce and then cripple them. Or... just round up the 15 other wargs and kill them. Your horn problem is over.


Really? Champs? Seriously?

Originally Posted by PF-Grumpy

This is priceless really coming from a warg. I mean really... champs are what you are complaining about?

During the last week of play, 50 out of 570 (rounded) freeps were champs. That is 8% of the population. In all reality that means you have 3-5 champs on the map at any one time. However 200 out of 700 creeps were wargs (rounded) which is nearly 30% of the creep population. 30%!!! Oh right and wargs are a stealth class, I forgot.

So how can you be upset over some champ horns? Just stay 15m away from them, and when you hear it go off... pounce and then cripple them. Or... just round up the 15 other wargs and kill them. Your horn problem is over.


Really? Champs? Seriously?

That's actually quite a bit less than I thought it would be. So 70% of Creeps were not playing Wargs! Out of curiousity, what was the most played Freep class?

Although I complain to tribemates in vent when I get CC'd to death, I think having CC in the moors is what makes a lot of classes, on both sides, have fun. Taking away CC would nerf freeps a lot more than it would affect creeps and the last thing the moors needs is even less incentive for freeps to pvp.

Originally Posted by Meijha

That's actually quite a bit less than I thought it would be. So 70% of Creeps were not playing Wargs! Out of curiousity, what was the most played Freep class?

My point was only that, to me, hearing a Warg complain about being greybarred is ironic. I am sure I will get plenty of warg hate now (which tbh is fine by me), but to be mad at champs for "greybarring" their opponents is just silly.



No?


Yes. Yes it is.

If only there was a fix for stuns...

Originally Posted by PF-Grumpy

My point was only that, to me, hearing a Warg complain about being greybarred is ironic. I am sure I will get plenty of warg hate now (which tbh is fine by me), but to be mad at champs for "greybarring" their opponents is just silly.



No?


Yes. Yes it is.

I think all gray barring is ridiculous, especially after playing my defiler this weekend. I'd still be interested in what Freep class is most represented though!

Originally Posted by Meijha

I think all gray barring is ridiculous, especially after playing my defiler this weekend. I'd still be interested in what Freep class is most represented though!

Well I counted the champs manually. You can get that data here

http://pvmpstats.alanlouie.com/?p=se...ate=2010-07-12

Im not really in the mood to count them all.


I too agree that grey barring is rediculous. I don't think playing any class is, or that some degree of CC is (especially slows) but to me hearing a warg complain about greybarring is non-sense. It would be like hearing a burg complain about it.

Nonsense I say!

Ballywho!

Balderdash!

Well having played a warg for a long, long time I can say that I still got gray barred BUT no where near as much as when I brought my visibles out of storage lol!

I don't think I can agree with removing CC altogether, but I still think it's having more of an impact than it should.

Originally Posted by Meijha

Well having played a warg for a long, long time I can say that I still got gray barred BUT no where near as much as when I brought my visibles out of storage lol!

I don't think I can agree with removing CC altogether, but I still think it's having more of an impact than it should.

I totally agree. Most of the solo fights I've lost were due to some thing kiting me around while I was slowed and dotted to hell. It's a legitimate tactic but frustrating.

I remember on my reaver how annoyed I was that I never got the chance to fight the freeps. I would get into them, everything would go black, and I would wake up in the victory circle with Mikorat lifting his leg at me.

OK really rough breakdown (cause I am at work and keep getting actual work thrown at me lol)

Burgs - 14%
Cptn - 8%
Chmp - 10%
Guard - 7%
Hntr - 31%
LM - 8%
Mins - 10%
RK - 6%
Wrd - 6%

I rounded up and down so as I said earlier not exact but gives a good rough idea.

Since it is just a data conversation now, is that for a week? A Day?

1 day. Just wanted a rough idea, and I have a feeling you would get similar results if you expand it out. At least that seems to be about right for the classes I am seeing out there.

Originally Posted by bigmatt19

IS CC OP IN THE MOORS??

No. (Conjunctions aside of course)

But I think every CC skill should at least be able to be potted out of. There are slow skills on either side that you can't do anything about.

Personally... I think the CC madness could be helped with either of these 2 things...

1. More melee classes need to come out and represent (freep side)! These people need to push out together... and creeps need to stick around and let us all fight it out. Some will get CC'd.. some will die... but it is always so much fun when there is just a nice large clash of melee. Ranged folks can hang back and pew pew (shock and awe, whatever) all they want to support the front-line troops... but the most fun is going to be had when both groups stand up to eachother and duke it out. (Assuming an even fight exists.. ie... neither side has more than a 1.5/1 advantage.)

2. More small group action needs to happen. In a smaller group the CC doesn't mean instant death. When you see an evenly matched group go at it... use some judgment before just charging in... maybe the group who is on your side wanted to do it themselves? Maybe your side wipes but the opposing side is very weak as a result... then go on in and wipe 'em! At least then everyone can walk away saying it was a good fight. A lot fewer accusations of freep/creep zergs running around would be nice.

Of course... I don't see #2 happening. And really.. probably not #1 either... but when they do happen (and trust me.. they do from time to time) it is what makes this game and PvP SOOOOOOOOO enjoyable. It is just tricky to ask people to play like that and have it not turn into meta-gaming. Hence the never-ending debate. lol


-matt

When looking at those numbers I find it useful to parse out those players who didn't earn much renown/infamy. So for a one day total I try to cut off ~250-300 renown and a weekend I'll draw the line at 1000.

Otherwise you're counting too many that are alts flipping on for a few minutes, or people who just joined the zerg for one push.

/shrug

There's a lot of variables to these numbers. It's hard to draw TOO many real conclusions.

Originally Posted by Thane9

When looking at those numbers I find it useful to parse out those players who didn't earn much renown/infamy. So for a one day total I try to cut off ~250-300 renown and a weekend I'll draw the line at 1000.

Otherwise you're counting too many that are alts flipping on for a few minutes, or people who just joined the zerg for one push.

/shrug

There's a lot of variables to these numbers. It's hard to draw TOO many real conclusions.

Agree. Like I said though, this was to get a rough idea. Anyone else who wants to wade in deeper, feel free!

I do think there are a heck of a lot of hunters out there though, and that thought seems to be spot on.

Originally Posted by Meijha

Agree. Like I said though, this was to get a rough idea. Anyone else who wants to wade in deeper, feel free!

I do think there are a heck of a lot of hunters out there though, and that thought seems to be spot on.

I wade deeper all the time. In fact these numbers are childs play to some of the dashboards data analysis I do for my job.

Be sure to check the active leaderboard too...there's some good information to be gathered there too and it doesn't require the manual counting as much.

Editing to add link : http://surugi.com/lotrostats/index.php

Originally Posted by Meijha

Agree. Like I said though, this was to get a rough idea. Anyone else who wants to wade in deeper, feel free!

I do think there are a heck of a lot of hunters out there though, and that thought seems to be spot on.

That was my take too. Just get some rough numbers that I bet, would even out even with the players gaining less than 1000 renown.

Class Stats for All
ClassPlayer CountAvg RatingTotal Infamy EarnedAvg Infamy Earned
Burglar 2243 1350.9 166,943,404 74,429
Captain 1250 1276.9 87,493,246 69,995
Blackarrow 2826 1275.1 212,487,055 75,190
Defiler 998 1270.2 51,899,215 52,003
Hunter 4934 1258.7 406,424,692 82,372
Stalker 4553 1255.8 323,689,005 71,094
Weaver 1795 1250 128,530,057 71,604
Warleader 1642 1230.7 121,725,743 74,133
Loremaster 2020 1227.7 181,692,510 89,947
Guardian 1260 1225.2 90,727,968 72,006
Warden 2791 207.5 22,100,233 79,212
Minstrel 1827 1196.1 160,590,871 87,899
Rune-keeper 987 1179.3 75,858,831 76,858
Champion 2042 1174.1 164,946,465 80,777
Reaver 2253 1128.9 177,574,853 78,817

Score!
Edit to fix the bloody mess the pasting made.

*Tosses data over his head on the bed like lottery winnings*!!!!

Keep in mind that data is pulled weekly and only counts those earning renown/infamy that week.

Furthermore there's a filter in effect for R5+.

And there are occasional issues with the data pulls...i.e. Landroval's screwed up data from the Friday before last until early last week.

Originally Posted by romoen

Ummmmm. I was just clearing up the confusion on the Stalker skills. Didn't mean for lorebook information to cause that reaction.

*Stands over ------------ pouncival --------------- budhorn ------------- > here*

While I've got no clue why the sudden hatred for Champs, I can totally get on board with this idea.

I went to eat a champ and got his horn lodged in my windpipe. After waiting for 6 houres in the Angmar Emergency Room, Doctor MouthofSauron sent me home with three asprins and told me to sleep it off.

Then I got the bill for my stay in the hospital. Although I entered the ER at about 2: 30 in the afternoon, my long wait took me into the evening, and they decided to charge me night rates. I was also billed for a dinner I was never given. Their excuse, It was there for me to enjoy, it was not their fault I had a champs horn lodged in my throat.

Originally Posted by aedon

i Went To Eat A Champ And Got His Horn Lodged In My Windpipe. After Waiting For 6 Houres In The Angmar Emergency Room, Doctor Mouthofsauron Sent Me Home With Three Asprins And Told Me To Sleep It Off.

Then I Got The Bill For My Stay In The Hospital. Although I Entered The Er At About 2: 30 In The Afternoon, My Long Wait Took Me Into The Evening, And They Decided To Charge Me Night Rates. I Was Also Billed For A Dinner I Was Never Given. Their Excuse, It Was There For Me To Enjoy, It Was Not Their Fault I Had A Champs Horn Lodged In My Throat.

Those Aren't Horns!!!!

Originally Posted by RathanTyr-Valen

Those Aren't Horns!!!!

*falls off rock laughing*

OK so what this data seems to be saying is that Defilers need a major buff. Srsly. Should give them AE stun gourds.....