Thread: CC in the moors

I know I have read tons of these threads before... but I am really not trying to derail other threads any more than needed. :-)

Soooo....

Here is my take as someone who plays a burg, champ, captain, and a warg with some level of proficiency in the moors. Definitely not the best at any of the classes.. but I know the mechanics of my classes for sure.

How a warg gets a stun (not even talking about CJs here)
1. Stealth
2. Pounce
Those two steps (really just 1 step since most wargs are stealthed long before they decide to pounce someone) generate a nice little 5 or 6 second stun on a single target. Assuming you pounce and run... and don't get hit... you can go back and do it again in 10 seconds to another target. Wargs... nice, simple, elegant.


Burg:
Mez (only works on humanoid and dragon types) 1 minute cooldown (can be 30 seconds) instantly broken on damage or bleed (can be traited for a 5 second cushion.)

8 second stun
1. Put a trick on someone (pops you out of stealth)
2. Apply the stun skill (and hope it isn't resisted hehe)

This skill has a cooldown of about 45 seconds. You have to be in close range (unstealthed) and you have to have an active trick on the target (dust in the eyes, etc)

Disabling gambles
Either done from stealth or with certain trick removals. Either way, it is just a mez (not a stun) and there is no promise that the gamble will be applied.

No doubt that burgs have more options on how to initiate a stun/mez... but they all come with cooldowns which typically last longer than the fight we're trying to win.


Champs:
We have 2 horns. One which we can trait up (at great expense) to do a nice 10 second stun to up to 6 targets. (has a hefty cooldown... 15 minutes if I remember correctly.) The other... it is an AOE skill which requires all our fervor to use (it takes some time to build up to it.) It is a 3 or 4 second stun and it really only good for interrupts.

Captain:
1 on defeat skill which can be traited to stun 4 targets for 5 seconds.



IS CC OP IN THE MOORS??
I think it is abused in group situaitons. But I think it is such an intregal part of the LM and burg classes that to take it away would destroy the viability of those classes out there. A burg would never win any duel without CC.. period.

So here is some interesting game mechanics though... we use CC because people run (on both sides) when they start getting hit. We want them to stand still (or not get into the huge group of NPCs) so we can kill them. Silly human controlled players rarely do that.

However... why do we run? It is because we know we'll be CCd to death! So where does it start? Chicken or the egg?

Personally... I think that CC is realistic in the moors. It is needed... and while it sucks to be grey barred... eh.. it is part of the game.

Wargs have a CJ popping skill as well, able to be used out of stealth while IC. I can't remember the cool down right now (despite the fact I was just on my warg!) - is it 5 minutes? Anyway, its a decent CD.

I was intentionally not talking about CJs... only things you can pop out of. Burgs have a lot of ways to start a CJ as well.

Wargs have the 5 min cooldown insta-CJ and the CJ on a crit pounce from stealth.

Burgs have a 5 min cooldown insta-CJ usable anytime, a 5 min cooldown insta-cj usable only from stealth, and the ability to randomly (20%) generate a CJ when we start our critical hit chain.

If we're talking about NPCs... burgs can also use marbles and stun dust. (marbles CJ, stun dust stun)

But.. this is about fair CC... stuff you can have some chance of getting out of. Not CJs... you're stuck in them until they wear off... period.

-matt

Originally Posted by bigmatt19

I was intentionally not talking about CJs... only things you can pop out of.

Righto, sorry about that!

I am all for banning burgs from the moors completely. They are mostly hobbits, and their silly little battle shouts cause creeps to fall over laughing far too often. This leads to an open chance for the freep raid to fall on you with ease.

LM's need to be sent to some sort of loonie bin. Advanced sticky gourd confuses me. A class given virtual napalm that only hurts one side? (smart bomb?)

Captains are an afront to their name, and a bit if a wonder at the same time. How do they swing those huge halberds in the middle of a crowd and only hit one target? And I am quite sure that the only thing stunning about a captain may be his breath. I think that a captain should be changed to a major, or perhaps a minor.

Originally Posted by Aedon

I am all for banning burgs from the moors completely. They are mostly hobbits, and their silly little battle shouts cause creeps to fall over laughing far too often. This leads to an open chance for the freep raid to fall on you with ease.

LM's need to be sent to some sort of loonie bin. Advanced sticky gourd confuses me. A class given virtual napalm that only hurts one side? (smart bomb?)

Captains are an afront to their name, and a bit if a wonder at the same time. How do they swing those huge halberds in the middle of a crowd and only hit one target? And I am quite sure that the only thing stunning about a captain may be his breath. I think that a captain should be changed to a major, or perhaps a minor.

lmao... and on the same note... how does a champion swing his weapons so wildly and only hit enemies? hmmm... me thinks there's something afoot. hehe

Originally Posted by bigmatt19

lmao... and on the same note... how does a champion swing his weapons so wildly and only hit enemies? hmmm... me thinks there's something afoot. hehe

I suspect Hobbit trickery!!!

Just to clear up some tools for Stalkers currently....

Available Stuns:
Pounce (Rank 0 - 10s Cooldown)

Available Conjunctions:
Critical Pounce from stealth. (Rank 0 - Cooldown 10s)
Chance to proc a CJ from Cripple Bite + Pounce (Rank 0 - 10s Cooldown each)
Tendon Shred (Rank 3 - Cooldown 5m)

Nearly all classes with stuns have more skills available to stun but none have the chance of acquiring a conjunction as frequently as Stalkers.

Originally Posted by romoen

Just to clear up some tools for Stalkers currently....

Available Stuns:
Pounce (Rank 0 - 10s Cooldown)

Available Conjunctions:
Critical Pounce from stealth. (Rank 0 - Cooldown 10s)
Chance to proc a CJ from Cripple Bite + Pounce (Rank 0 - 10s Cooldown each)
Tendon Shred (Rank 3 - Cooldown 5m)

Nearly all classes with stuns have more skills available to stun but none have the chance of acquiring a conjunction as frequently as Stalkers.

Then wargs must all be rounded up and euthanized. And seeing that the ranged will then be too OP, they too muct be curtailed. I suggest filling the Hoardale with quick drying cement and tossing in a few slices of bacon.

Originally Posted by Aedon

Then wargs must all be rounded up and euthanized. And seeing that the ranged will then be too OP, they too muct be curtailed. I suggest filling the Hoardale with quick drying cement and tossing in a few slices of bacon.

That's all well and good but how will you take care of the ranged classes?

Ok... to be clear... we all know that everyone thinks CJs are over powered. Ok.. I don't really... but the general community opinion is that they are... and I don't care to argue it.

This thread is about the "fair" stuns and the idea that all CC should be removed from the moors. That would include hunter traps, all the stuns, mezzes and fears.

Specifically... the champ AoE stun horn. The good stun is on a 15 minute cooldown. It is fine IMO. And besides... whenever my champ (or burg for that matter) get anywhere near anyone I only have time to get off 1 (maybe 2) skills before you all make me explode anyway. lol

Since I know I am going in to die... (since I find myself the only melee who generally commits to the target assist and doesn't care how far into the creep mass i run) I figure I may as well do something annoying in the process.

Yeah that horn either has to go, or Wargs need a new skill called "cram horn up Champs A@*." It can be on the same cool down timer as the champs horn and hit multiple champs at the same time.

Originally Posted by bigmatt19

IS CC OP IN THE MOORS??

No. (Conjunctions aside of course)

But I think every CC skill should at least be able to be potted out of. There are slow skills on either side that you can't do anything about.

Personally... I think the CC madness could be helped with either of these 2 things...

1. More melee classes need to come out and represent (freep side)! These people need to push out together... and creeps need to stick around and let us all fight it out. Some will get CC'd.. some will die... but it is always so much fun when there is just a nice large clash of melee. Ranged folks can hang back and pew pew (shock and awe, whatever) all they want to support the front-line troops... but the most fun is going to be had when both groups stand up to eachother and duke it out. (Assuming an even fight exists.. ie... neither side has more than a 1.5/1 advantage.)

2. More small group action needs to happen. In a smaller group the CC doesn't mean instant death. When you see an evenly matched group go at it... use some judgment before just charging in... maybe the group who is on your side wanted to do it themselves? Maybe your side wipes but the opposing side is very weak as a result... then go on in and wipe 'em! At least then everyone can walk away saying it was a good fight. A lot fewer accusations of freep/creep zergs running around would be nice.

Of course... I don't see #2 happening. And really.. probably not #1 either... but when they do happen (and trust me.. they do from time to time) it is what makes this game and PvP SOOOOOOOOO enjoyable. It is just tricky to ask people to play like that and have it not turn into meta-gaming. Hence the never-ending debate. lol


-matt