Thread: Feedback: New Player Tips for Guardians

I've just created my first Guardian (L11), and am wondering if I should even bother learning the two-handed weapons? Is that necessary or useful for a Guard?

I was sniffing around some of the lesser Barrows the other day on my L21 Hobbit, and decided to try OP stance for a while... and got my feet shaved for me. I blithely marched into a group of 3 mobs and watched helplessly as they insulted my mother, rolled me down a hill, ate my lunch and drank my milkshake. Yet in Sword'n'Board, I could easily wade into a group of 4 mobs of the same level and chop them down to size without even needing to stop my ongoing conversation about mushroom recipes and thorough contrast of the beers available in the Green Dragon versus those in the Prancing Pony.

This makes me start to wonder if all these stories of OP being for solo work are really true.

Is OP stance really useful for low-level soloing? Or should it really wait until more skills unlock before it becomes truly a viable option?

On a related note, does Overpower stance get a self-heal, or is that only in Sword'n'Board format on a shield-block response?

Also, what is the percentage of increase in damage in Overpower, and does that really make up for the loss of adding shield attack skills in the rotation?

Amagaim, I can answer part of your question on Overpower stance.

The main attraction of switching to OP when you first get it is to make solo questing much easier. It allows you burn burn down 1 or 2 mobs much faster than outlasting them with a shield. However, like you say it is difficult to take on as many enemies in OP as in SnB, but this will soon change when you start to unlock more red traits. As the red traits stack up, so does the damage output from OP. This makes it easier to take on multiple enemies purely because you kill them faster. Fully traited, the damage modifier is +31% for OP stance.

OP stance gets really interesting when you get the skill Force Opening, I think it is at level 30 but I may be wrong. This skill opens up a parry response when it hits, allowing you to unleash the great skills from your parry line, and kill stuff even faster. Accompanied by the trait Blocking Force, this skill also opens up a block response on a critical IIRC. If you were to pair this with the trait that improves Catch a Breath, you can get a nice self heal every so often to help you out.

Hope that helps, and that destroying stuff in OP works out for you

I am at level 35 on my dwarf guardian now and have used OP for soloing most of the time. It is significantly less resilient than S&B so you do have to be carefeul not to bite off more than you can chew, however I've found that once you level enough to have four red traits open you put out decent damage and take down the mobs before they kill you. I've also found it's very important to have a good double-hander and keep your armour up to date as you level, GB set at 25+ is fantastic and craft-critted armour at 30+ is far better than most quest rewards. I'm not a good player but I don't find it hard to take on 4+ mobs in OP. I also keep my shield and 1-hander on my quickbars in case I get into trouble.

There is no reactive heal in OP as far as I know, since Catch a Breath is a block response. There is a Warrior's Heart at 30 which increases your max morale, I use that as an emergency "heal".

Overpower seems underpowered when you first get it, simply because you don't have a lot of skills to use and you live a lot longer with a one-hander and shield. When you get 4 red traits and more skills like Force Opening, Stagger, and Brutal Assault, suddenly Overpower becomes massively useful. Your single-target dps can almost match that of a champion, and that's saying something.

Also, whenever you get new skills, test them out! Use them over and over, especially if you have deeds as they will unlock traits. Using your skills helps you to learn them and realize that none of your skills are useless.

As for learning to tank, do lots of skirmishes and focus on making your skirmish soldier take no damage whatsoever the entire time. Quite a fun challenge, and you get good at your role fast! Also group early and often, learning the instances and learning your role. And another tip - always open with Guardian's Ward, and keep it up throughout the battle. It does damage and reduces the damage you take, so why not? It makes the healer not have to worry about you as much, it has a short animation and doesn't get in the way of you using your threat-generating skills. So use Guardian's Ward all the time - especially when soloing and you don't have a healer with you!

Overall, stick with it. You may level slower than a high DPS class, but as you level you will find it hard to die, you will gain a solid reputation, and you will be a coveted class to group with. Stick with it, embrace the role, and you will be rewarded. Good luck!

Originally Posted by Ryvick

Most important tip of all: Do not worry about dying, Guards die; sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. Death helps us learn how not to die in the future.

This is so VERY true. Just recently, I had to die twice to figure out the best tactic in a quest situation. Two attempts didn't work and got me killed... the third worked like a charm. That's a lesson I can now take into other situations.

Bellallung, level 35 Guardian
Officer, Black Veil Mercenaries

Originally Posted by oldbustedjorn

Another tip from a guardian...

2-handers are for OP, whether soloing or times when block stance isn't needed.
1-handers are for block stance, parry stance and guardian's threat stance, and best used when main tanking or if off-tanking something that hits hard.

There are plenty of times when switching to OP + 2H is a good strategy, not just when soloing. If you are building the perfect raiding group and want to faceroll things as fast as possible - don't run a guard as DPS. If you are in a group that has an MT and you are also in the group, you can run OP as DPS. Will you do as much DPS as a hunter, champ or RK? Probably not. Doesn't mean you can't contribute. Make sure to use stagger from the back of mobs to debuff them! If you think outside the box a little you don't need the perfect group every time.

Please enlighten... What is OP?

Thanks.

FOUND THE ANSWER... Overpower... Thanks.

Bellallung, Level 35 Guardian
Officer, Black Veil Mercenaries

Originally Posted by Peartree

I'll try to help you out with the lingo, but I will miss lots of them.

Thanks Peartree... Since I've been in-game now for a bit longer, I've picked up on a lot more of the jargon. Being in a helpful kinship has been a boon of information and resources. Thanks to everyone for all of these great tips.

Bellallung, Level 35 Guardian
Officer, Black Veil Mercenaries

Originally Posted by Banatsir

I've also found it's very important to have a good double-hander and keep your armour up to date as you level, GB set at 25+ is fantastic and craft-critted armour at 30+ is far better than most quest rewards. I'm not a good player but I don't find it hard to take on 4+ mobs in OP. I also keep my shield and 1-hander on my quickbars in case I get into trouble.

I really hadn't had much use for one two-handed weapons because I felt that the loss of attacks/armor protection from the shield wasn't offset by the increased damage from the two-hander... I did find a nice quest reward two-handed hammer that does fire damage and I'm using that regularly. The armor and weapons you find in skirmish camps or have high level crafters make is so much better than 90% of the stuff you find questing. If you only use quest rewards to equip yourself, I think you'll be sorely under-equipped.

And I love the advice of putting your one-hander and shield on the quickbar... I'll be doing that from now on.

Originally Posted by Banatsir

There is no reactive heal in OP as far as I know, since Catch a Breath is a block response. There is a Warrior's Heart at 30 which increases your max morale, I use that as an emergency "heal".

Warrior's Heart is a great skill... it has saved my hide countless times.

Thanks again for all the great advice!

Bellallung, Level 35 Guardian
Officer, Black Veil Mercenaries

Originally Posted by Banatsir

There is no reactive heal in OP as far as I know, since Catch a Breath is a block response. There is a Warrior's Heart at 30 which increases your max morale, I use that as an emergency "heal".

There is a trait (can't remember the name) that gives you a block reactive when force opening crits. Not extremely reliable but I guess that would technically be a reactive heal in OP (and you could combine that with the catch a breath power restore trait as well). I've not run this way in a while so maybe it can't be done or has been changed.

I do not have much of a problem with staying alive in OP and I'm not an expert on it by any means. I remember doing the walls of moria dungeons (half orcs and lizards) at L45, solo. The only thing I couldn't get past was the boss of that place with his two adds iirc. My biggest issue was not being able to hit red mobs easily.

I'm not saying this to show how good I am (far from it), but rather to give some tips as well as maybe elicit tips from other OP pros.

- Use Guardian's Ward, even in OP, since you can still evade/parry
- Learn how to use Warrior's Heart (fortitude) and Guardian's Pledge
- For Warrior's Heart, use it as a self-heal
- For Guardian's Pledge, try to use it earlier in the fight since you still take damage. If you use it when you have 200 morale left, you may still die. The key is to plan ahead. If you pull 4 white mobs and know you are in for a fight, use it earlier.
- Don't forget about deep breath!! If you used Warrior's heart as a self heal and then guardian's pledge, but still have a ways to go, use deep breath AFTER the effects of those skills have worn off and then you can use them again!
- Use pots earlier in the fight if you can foresee a tough battle. If it last long enough you might be able to use them again.
- Don't underestimate bleeds, but don't forget that overwhelm will stun on a crit. Not only nice damage, but one less mob attacking you. I believe To the King will also knockout your opponent even if you aren't in a fellowship (no FM will generate though).

I'm thinking as a level capped guardian, though, so if you are struggling and are lower level, it will get better. Try to have the highest DPS 2H weapon while in OP. Don't neglect agility as it will increase crits and will increase evade.

as a lv 12 guard, what are ways to increase my aggro generation other than vexing blow, because i use that alot, but my lv 13 lm friend always steals my aggro, this is even when he gives me time to get aggro. I dunno if its cuz hes focusing on dps or not but, i dunno. help plz

Originally Posted by Drakojan

as a lv 12 guard, what are ways to increase my aggro generation other than vexing blow, because i use that alot, but my lv 13 lm friend always steals my aggro, this is even when he gives me time to get aggro. I dunno if its cuz hes focusing on dps or not but, i dunno. help plz

To be honest, there isn't much more you can do at L12 other than have your friend wait a bit. There also shouldn't be much content at L12 that requires a person to keep threat through the entire fight. As you get your shield skills, use them often to increase threat. In addition, don't neglect class deeds as many of them increase threat. For instance, there is a trait for vexing blow that makes it hit 3 targets (more with legacies) in 90 degree arc. Very helpful for building threat.

Many thanks to all for such good advice. First time playing a tank for someone who has always been ranged DPS in other games - I have decided to live dangerously for a wee while

I love this character so much and have tried most of them here.What are you guys suing as a rotation and I agree with allot that has been said in here.We tanks are not to worry so much about DPS but to keep the group safe and we are to have all of the aggro at all times and always and I say always protect your healer at all times.

READ READ READ your abilities!

Read them once.

Read them again.

Read them a third time, just to be sure.

Read them a fourth time if your bored.

There are a Guardians who don't know where their skills actually do other than: "The pointy end goes thata way --|------>

For me, at least, i find it impossible to believe that guards have trouble holding aggro post 60. With absolutely everything you need available to you by level 60, I just can't believe, other than lack of reading your skills, that guards fail, at anything.

Aside from learning how to build aggro, many guardians don't know what their opponent does or can do or what is capable of. As a Guardian, if you are not cognazant of everything around you, including multiple mobs, your positioning during a battle (turn bosses for frontal, plant your back against a wall if boss punts), what debuff a mob is going to put on you, which debuffs to cure in preference (if you have a fear and a wound, cure the fear with pots, and wound with Ignore the Pain). You must be aware of your life, your fellows lives, who the mobs are hitting, what skills to trigger in an emergency. There is alot more to do than hit 121212121312131 or some #### like that. You must know, react and be the *leader* of your group. After all, the group will be looking to you to run into a group of mobs and pull them, if you are not sure of what to do, figure it out fast, because the group is not going to assume you rolled up your guard yesterday.

If all goes wrong in a group, you will be the first to be scrutinized (even though we all know it was the hunters/champs fault). There is so much you as a tank need to manage that one little mistake will cost a group a wipe (sometimes). And its because of teh many things we need to be aware of that we are the first to be blamed. And if all goes right and at the end of the day people say "great group everyone" they are really saying: "Hey! That guard did ok! We lived (or didn't wipe as badly as they imagined)."

Very rarely we get thanked. Take what praise you can get. Because from 30-60 hunters and champions will make you cry. Groups are almost always a diverse mixture of high and low level, with you often being at the low end and your DPS being the higher end. Hold tight, take some xanax and keep pushing through, once at 60, life eases up a bit and at 65, even hunters will be less intimidating.

Most people tell me that once you get to higher levels, guards get more fun, but right now I dislike them so much, so I deleted mines in favor of a Runekeepr and a Champion. Some people told me that was a bad idea but after only having 3 aggro skills, one of them needing to block to use, at level 24, it kinda bothered me. Well, I like my Champion anyways so .

Originally Posted by Drakojan

Most people tell me that once you get to higher levels, guards get more fun, but right now I dislike them so much, so I deleted mines in favor of a Runekeepr and a Champion. Some people told me that was a bad idea but after only having 3 aggro skills, one of them needing to block to use, at level 24, it kinda bothered me. Well, I like my Champion anyways so .

My first class was a champion, and I love them, and it really helped me to prepare to be a guardian.

At level 24, you haven't even really matured as a GUardian yet, what everyone told you was true. And worst off, if you only have 3 aggro skills at 24, you didn't trait harrasser (or didn't bother to cmplete the deed). Yes, one of them (2-3 really, at your level) require the block chain. This makes me think you went 2H (OP stance) to level up. You should really only do this after level 30 or so when your comfortable knowing what skills generate threat and your place in a group. OP stance is not for groups, its for solo play, and it in itself is pretty powerful. I could take out 3-4 mobs at a time in ND in OP stance. It was fun.

Shield Swipe, while single target, still generates threat. As does shield taunt, as does Bash, and shield smash (gained later through legendary traits). If it s ashield skill, it generates threats. Again, learn and read what your skills do, you'll find you are missing quite a few things.....

I'd re-roll your guard once you get a handle on teh champ. It will be an eye opener on just how *durable* you are.

I'll think about it thanks. I only went overpower when I soloed, and the only deed I completed was the Sting one, and i did have only 3 aggro skills. ShieldBash (need to block), Challenge (was my favorite skill despite CD), and that other one where i hit them with my shield. My friend told me RKs got nerfed bad a while ago but I didn't know about it, can someone tell me which is better RK vs. Warden vs. Guardian.
Like how complex they are, easy to learn, hard to master, stuff like that.
I like to pew pew stuff before they even get near me so I'm thinking thats RK but I dunno. I also want a class thats wanted in groups all the time. (Like a hunter, even though there are billions of them, just go in LFF, 35 Hunter wants to do GA, invite in like 2 seconds )

And no, I'm not a ####### :P. Ok maybe I sort of am. Well... I'm trigger crazy.
I'm a trigger crazy hunt-verysmartperson.

This thread is about tips for new guardians. And I will state again.

READ WHAT YOUR ABILITIES DO!

Drak, you were missing about 3 abilities that get aggro. PLus, you are missing about 2 or 3 almost required traits. (I mentioned harrasser).

And Drak, I'd stick to the hunter if I were you.

About sticking to hunter, I'm def doing that. But I was wondering if there are any classes that you think I would enjoy, or that you enjoy? And I guess I did have more aggro skills but didn't read as you said, and I'll most likely try Guard again at a later time. Right now trying to get Burn (hunt) through Book 4 and into Angmar.

This thread has been great. I have to say that after usually playing a dps role in most mmo's (and in a text-based game a buffer/raiser of dead.), I decided to try a guardian.. AND I LOVE IT.

The only problem is, is that I am so afraid that I will let people down in a fellowship by failing utterly at tanking. I don't want to get yelled at, but I know eventually (I am at level 27 and have managed to not do a GB run...yet.) I will have to tank.

I have practiced in skirmishes with my shield bashes, swipe, taunts and I think I do an okay job. My question is, what do I do if I fail utterly at tanking? And what should I be aware of?

What I have gotten from this thread so far is.

My job is threat, not dps -- Check!
Face mobs away from her fellows -- Check!
If you are in a group with a warden take to off-tank to protect squishy healers -- Check!

So, any other advice?

Originally Posted by Viridian82

So, any other advice?

Understand that you will fail before you succeed.

The first time I ever tanked a level 60 instance in Moria with a pug group, the group disbanded when the leader said "We wont be able to do it with this group.", I knew he actually meant we wouldn't be able to do it with me tanking it.

But I learned from my mistakes and knew I would get better. Not to boast but now my friends in-game come to me when they need a tank to run an instance. I have even had puggers tell me I was good at tanking with my Guardian.

If you're determined to get better, you will.

Originally Posted by Viridian82

This thread has been great. I have to say that after usually playing a dps role in most mmo's (and in a text-based game a buffer/raiser of dead.), I decided to try a guardian.. AND I LOVE IT.

The only problem is, is that I am so afraid that I will let people down in a fellowship by failing utterly at tanking. I don't want to get yelled at, but I know eventually (I am at level 27 and have managed to not do a GB run...yet.) I will have to tank.

I have practiced in skirmishes with my shield bashes, swipe, taunts and I think I do an okay job. My question is, what do I do if I fail utterly at tanking? And what should I be aware of?

What I have gotten from this thread so far is.

My job is threat, not dps -- Check!
Face mobs away from her fellows -- Check!
If you are in a group with a warden take to off-tank to protect squishy healers -- Check!

So, any other advice?

Don't be afraid. I know that sounds counter productive to what you said about being afraid, but that is not what I mean.

You wear heavy armor, only two other classes will do that and at those levels, are no where near competent to tank, so don't be afraid to just prance right into that horde of mobs and hit challenge. Once they are all hitting you, *trust* in your healer/s and do *your* job. If you die, its not through any fault of your own so don't stress over dying, just concentrate on performing your role and TANK.

IT's like the old joke goes: HOw do you get to Carnegie Hall?

Practice.

And read your skills and what they do.

Read them.

Originally Posted by lilearthdragon

Positioning, positioning, positioning!

One of the pillars of being a good guardian is all about player positioning relative to the mob. In a group, you want to face the mob away from the group. This way any frontal AoE the mob does is only hitting you the tank, and the fellow will only get damaged by full 360 AoEs.

A nice side effect of this, is that the fellowship (especially burglars) will do more damage to a mobs backside.

I do this on my guard for a different reason (using my frontal AoEs,) but you make a better argument for this tactic.

*hopes burglar friend logs on in the near future*

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...80#post5764580

A post that I made giving my perspective on threat and aggro management.

Something i wrote a year ago for absolute beginnners - most of it still applies. If I'd known this when i first started, it would have saved so much trouble :

Tanking 101
-----------

Your absolute priority in a grouped situation is to protect the healer .

Minstrels and Rune Keepers have an almost unlimited supply of heals they can cast to keep people alive. However, they cannot cast heals while moving and getting hit interrupts the casting. Captains can also heal, they can do so while running and can't be interrupted. However captains cannot heal themselves.

Every mob has his own agro table, a list of people they are in combat with, and a number denoting how much they hate each person. Doing damage to that mob , or taunting that mob, increases his hate for you. However, healing generates threat on every mob the group is in combat with, even if they are rooted, stunned, or a long way away.

example -

Elite boss hate table

1. guardian 1000 hate
2. hunter 800 hate
3. minstrel 400 hate

Melee add hate table

1. guardian 600 hate
2. minstrel 400 hate
3. hunter 0 hate

Ranged add hate table

1. minstrel 400 hate
2. guardian 0 hate
3. hunter 0 hate


In this case the boss and the melee add are attacking the guardian. The enemy archer is 15m away, out of range of the guardian's skills, so he has no hate for the guardian. The hunter is not attacking him , so he has no hate for him either, so he defaults to attacking the minstrel, who is generating threat by healing.

So, as a tank you need to spread your threat across all the mobs, so that even the ones no-one is hitting do not go for your healer . This may mean you generate less threat on the group's primary target, and it might peel off and start hitting the hunter. This is a price worth paying. Although they are not really meant to tank, a minstrel can easily keep a hunter alive while the boss beats on him, and heal you in their spare time, provided you keep the rest of the trash away so the minnie can work uninterrupted.


Ranged Mobs
==========

These guys are a problem. If they are too far away from you, then you won't build any threat and they will target your healer.

1. the best approach is to have a loremaster or burglar stun him at the start of the fight. Planning = win

2. alternatively , drag the melee mobs over to the ranged guy and fight him in melee with the others. This can be difficult, it's harder to generate threat while running and if the group don't ease up, they might pull the agro off you.

3. get a hunter to range tank it. Better it shoots at the hunter than have it interrupt your healer.


AOE mobs
=======

Some elites do frontal AOE damage - basically, all trolls. If you are fighting trolls, tell your fellowship to stand behind them at all times, anyone stood in front will take damage even if they dont have agro.

eg. Guardian is doing a perfectly good job holding agro on a troll, but 2 champions are stood alongside the guardian, taking a beating. Your minstrel has to heal 3 times as much damage (actually more than three times as much, as champions cannot block evade or parry in fervour, and have a -30% incoming healing penalty). Get behind them and hit them, champs!

eg. Guardian is holding agro on a group of 4 mobs. hunter pulls agro on one of them ( a troll) and it runs up to him. Minstrel is stood next to hunter. Minstrel starts getting interrupted by the aoe hits, group wipes. Minstrel or hunter needs to move!

Stunned Mobs
==========

Stunned mobs are not being hit, so they tend to agro the healer. So, unless it is a particularlly troublesome ranged mob, healer, or summoner, don't stun unless you have to. If you have a stunned mob, bear in mind you can still build agro on them with shield taunt and fray the edge without waking them. When you get your agro copy skill (engage) you can also use this on a stunned mob without breaking the mezz.


Skill Usage
========

Your optimum tanking skills are completely different from the optimum soloing ones.

Your main priority is skills that generate aoe threat. After that, skills that generate aoe damage (if fighting multiple mobs). After that, skills that generate single target threat.

Skills that do good single target damage, and self heals, come way down the list. These are mainly for solo.

Insta-cast skills -

Shield Blow, Fray the Edge - nice single target threat
Vexing blow (with harasser trait) modest aoe threat

block reactives -

Litany of Challenge (level 60 ) is just awesome AOE threat. Before level 60, you will need to use Shield Swipe to unlock -

Shield Taunt - nice aoe threat skill (8m range)

Parry Reactives

Whirling Retaliation always. All you other parry skills are single target dps. This is a modest dps aoe and also a threat transfer. So it's the only parry skill to use when tanking.


Don't forget to use guardian's ward every 10 seconds. This buffs your block and parry rate, reducing incoming damage and giving you access to your reactive skills more often.

Blowing Cooldowns
==============

Challenge.

This is a force taunt. It forces 3 opponents to attack you for 10 seconds, regardless of who is actually top of their hate list. It does not actualyl generate any threat by itself. So don't spam it keep it for an important moment

1) at the start of the fight

forcing 3 opponents to attack you for 10 seconds will unlock some block/parry skills, which helps you to build threat. Should not be needed if the group lets you hit the mobs for a few seconds before wading in though.

2) when the healer is getting hit

keep your eye on the minstrel's health bar. It should be full at all times, if it is not, something is hitting them, and you need to do somethig about it fast!

Guardian's Pledge
=============

A newbie error i used to make was to keep this skill for when my health was getting low. In practice, it only ever got low because my healer was dead.

Far better to pop this skill when you feel you healer might be in danger of drawing agro by healing too much. Example, while you are fighting a pair of mobs, when a patrol of 3 mobs comes along the road and agros the group. It's going to take a few seconds to build good agro, so pop pledge to stop your healer getting agro in the transition and being killed.


Target Switching
=============

This is very important , especially in the early days when you don't have many aoe skills.

You can do it manually by clicking on the mob with a mouse, or by using the [next target] hotkey.

An easier method is to assign the [select nearest target] key to [tab] or something near you W A S D movement keys, then strafe from side-to-side or circle around your minstrel, tapping [select nearest target] with the same hand you use for the movement buttons. This guarantees you hit all of the mobs at some point. The drawback is server lag dulls the speed of the target swithcing sometimes.

Go to combat options/target of my target and ensure it is ticked. This means you can see who the mob you are targeting is agroed on , which gives you an idea of how well you are doing.

Practice these skills on some low level mobs, it could save your life one day.


Backpedaling
==========

If you have agro on multiple melee mobs they will tend to form a circle around you. You cannot block or parry attacks from behind which means more damage and fewer reactives, and they aren't getting hit by your frontal aoe attacks either. So , keep moving backwards, you can even use obstacles like trees or pillars to funnel them in front of you.

As you move, the currently targeted mob could find himself at the back of this crowd of mobs that want to see you, preventing you from firing melee skills, or causing your charcter to make pointless ranged autoattacks that miss because you aren't standing still. De-equip your bow or go to combat options and uncheck "skills can enable default attack" to prevent this. However, you should also be trying to change target so that you are targted on whoever is now closest to you as well.

DPS Assist
========

Consider the situation where the group is fighting 5 mobs. You are target switching and using aoe rather than single target threat skills, so all 5 of these mobs have more hate for you than they do for the healer. However, you have 3 hunters, all shooting a different mob.

The result -

1. The mobs take longer to die , your group is fighting 5 mobs for longer.

2. Because you are spreading your threat thinner, you can't hold agro over a hunter going full bore. So each of the mobs being targeted by a hunter, peels off to the hunter. Now 3 mobs are being tanked by hunter, and only 2 by guardian. This increases the damage incoming to the group.

What is needed is for the group to nominate a "DPS assist". One of the hunters chooses the mob to the hit, and all the other hunters target the DPS assistant. If they have "target forwarding" turned on in their combat options panel, their shots will automatically target his target.

so, now we have 4 mobs on a guardian, and one going to the hunter. As one of the hutners crits, the mob will waste time running after that one, then change direction again when a different hunter pulls his agro with a critted shot. And he won't live long. The remaining mobs will stay on the guardian. The guardian will have built plenty of agro on the remaining mobs while the first was being killed, so they won't peel off.

@Nemulas

Rep added. =D

Recently tanking skirmish raids I have found that we seem to have a clique of "Challenge" tanks. Like Nemulas has pointed out, Challenge is not a skill to spam every time it comes out of cooldown. That is especially important when sharing tanking duties with another tank and when tanking several boss-type mobs that are best kept apart.

I've had several occasions lately where the other tanks have pressed Challenge at the most unfortunate times and brought several AoE bosses straight into the group causing a nice bit of havoc. Same with trash pulls - I've been happily tanking the lot until the other guard does a pointless Challenge, forcing all mobs turn to him for the duration and then back to me (because they're not actually working enough on generating aggro).

Lately I've just given up in such cases and switched to OP instead, until a shield is needed again. I've thrown protection on the other tank and in most cases I'm still getting the mobs back on me when their Challenge wears off. It seems OP tanking is still somewhat possible, except against the minority of players who actually know how to DPS. Post-RoI I've seen maybe 2-3 champs and 1-2 hunters who have been able to make life hard for a tank (shield or OP).

Every guardian worth their salt should take pride in generating real aggro, instead of using Challenge at every possibility.

I am a level 24 Guardian and I don't have, and can't find, some of the skills mentioned here.

I don't have Catch a Breath, Shield Taunt, Challenge, Thrust, or Whirling Retaliation. My trainer does not have them listed.

Where did I go wrong?

Originally Posted by Happyoldguy

I am a level 24 Guardian and I don't have, and can't find, some of the skills mentioned here.

I don't have Catch a Breath, Shield Taunt, Challenge, Thrust, or Whirling Retaliation. My trainer does not have them listed.

Where did I go wrong?

Three possible issues I can imagine.
But I'm no veteran exactly so I may be way off.

1. Some trainers in the really low level zones, such as Archet, may not be able to teach you skills above level 8 or 10 or so.
Make sure you are talking to a trainer in a major town such as Bree or Thorins hall.

2. You might not be high enough level to train them.
There is a box at the top you can check to show/hide untrainable skills, if you have them shown they should say wich level they become available.

3. They might be gated by a class quest wich usually comes in the mail and points you to talk to a specific trainer.
Other trainers will as I recall also give you the same quest, wich would make this letter irrelevant.

At level 24 you should have all of those skills already. You can see the Guardian's skills, along with the levels at which they can be trained, at this site: http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Guardian.

Make sure you go to a trainer in a main town like Bree, as the poster above me says, and have selected the Active Skills tab in the training screen. If you've been playing without all those skills, I think you'll find it makes a huge difference when you get them!

Also make sure you havent trained them allready !

You can open you character sheet in-game by pressing "C" or clicking on the small icon on the bar.
From there you should be able to navigate to the skills tab (located below the image of your character) and there you can see what skills you posess.
It may be that you trained them, but they didnt show up on your bars due to lack of empty spaces and somesuch.

I couldnt agree more with the former posts "read skills", "practise" , "test" and "threat beats dps"

I think there is one thing to remember for all new guards. Before you really get a fair chance to test your skills you need to get lev 56-58 and do the treasury and Grand Stairs instances in Moria. I know there are other pre moria areas where fs quests need guards buth truth is its very seldom you get to do them without a lev 75 in the group and then it gets hard for you to outtank them as your more than 20 levels lower. So get your tank up there. Get your deeds done. Do the class quests, learn the techniques and use some 2hander to get it going faster now and then. The "REAL" tanking first begins at end game. That is where tanks really are needed. If there is an unbalance in the game that is it. The Guards is really first needed in end game. Heals and DPS are more useful trough the whole LOTRO content. Never the less i love tanking :-) and im still learning..... (hmm)

Give the Guardian a threat transfer skill so that off tanks such as wardens take some damage

Good advice everyone.

A few things I would add:
Remember to put protection on your healer when you get it.

Originally Posted by teviko

If all goes wrong in a group, you will be the first to be scrutinized (even though we all know it was the hunters/champs fault).

This is so true. Don't be afraid to be the "leader" and ask hunters especially to hold off a bit at first. They will thank you for it. Champions are not usually a problem because they have heavy armor and can take some damage and not die but Hunters and I would add Runekeepers can't either.

My best advice would be to encourage your group to let you or the main assist/off-tank keep aggro. If anyone else is getting attacked it cuts into your heals. A healer can keep you alive if you keep them alive. If you are trying to get aggro from a "squishy" (medium and light armor classes) that means you might not be able to keep guys off the healer. If "squishies" are being attacked it means they are taking a lot of damage per hit and needing even more healing. This means less healing for you. Do yourself and the healer a favor and encourage the "squishies" to not get aggro.

Whirling Retaliation gets and ability (I think) that transfer aggro from fellows to you IF they are within 10M. HUnters usually attack farther away than that. If the boss doesn't have AoE attacks encourage your fellowship to stay closer, this will heal with your AoE Threat skills to if they do pull aggro.

I have run 6 man groups were the Tank and main assist are the only ones taking damage and it made the whole run easy because the healer only had two people to heal and could keep up with no problem.

I would also recommend looking at Parry/Evade/Block bonuses. If you are tanking these will add up way faster than a little bit of in-combat morale regen or +50 morale. I'd take high stats in these areas over more health any day. The less a healer heals the less aggro they generate, the easier your job it. (Except for the Hunters and DPSing Runekeepers)

I also like to quick slot my shied, 1h weapon, 2h weapon, Overpower stance, and my Aggro Stance (Guardian's Threat).

Once you Finish A Shield Maiden Song using Guardian's Threat is a big bonus. You can't beat the +20% perceived threat and you can get more through traits.

You should also be the first to attack. This means you need to be in front which makes you a leader. Being a leader and tanking with your guardian go hand in hand. Leaders can't be afraid to lead by giving advice and encouraging the group. This includes telling the hunters to layoff the attacks so they don't die. This can be accomplished by encouraging the healer to only heal you and the main assist/off-tank.

LAST POINT: Many players don't understand threat and aggro. As a Tank you need to and you may also need to help explain it to the group so you can beat that challenging boss.

Don't know If this was covered, but there are time in a fellowship when you will loss arggo to a dps. Don't swet it when it happens. Challenge and Fray the edge will pull it back. Just remember it's a learning procces am I'm still learning.

Originally Posted by Jaunt

Test, test, test.

If you think getting power back on parries is good, test how many parries you get in the average fight, and how much power you get back. If you think returning damage on blocks is good, see how much damage it is, and how often you block, and what kind of increase to your dps it is. If you think Guardian's Threat vastly increases your thread output, test it and make sure. It was broken for two years before I finally found it and it was fixed.

Test, test and test some more. I know it sucks to have your class's main mechanic an invisible number you can't see, but that just makes the numbers can see all the more important. There are a lot of bad guardians, and you have no easy way to tell the good ones from the bad ones. You have to come to your own conclusions, and if you rely on gut feelings, you're going to be one of those bad guards.

This is very true! Gaurds really need to test out their skills and find what skill order actually WILL gather the most threat, etc.

Just wanted to say thank you all so much! I've read this thread through a few times, as well as the other tips and stuff on the guardian forum. Just did my first GB run last night (took me forever to get around to it) as tank. Afterward, the other people in the fellowship said I was beast, so that's good. Knowing what I know about my own class, I did see some stuff I need to work on (I'm not that good with more than about 3 mobs and I keep forgetting to use pots and power/morale healing skills), but I didn't mention any of that, of course. Just a /bow and move on. But thanks to this thread I think I did pretty well for a first-timer.

Thanks so much and keep it coming!

Long time player returning recently. Here's a few solid general tanking tips that have helped me across many MMO's over the years

1) in addition to knowing your skills, also make sure you know where they are on your hotkeys. If you don't use hotkeys at this point, it would be beneficial to learn. It is a much faster and easier approach then skill clicking (though clicking works, it isn't as fast...there's actually some decent research on this out there as well). and don't switch them up too often...the last thing you want to do is have to look in a fervor for that one skill you need while an orc is pounding on your defenseless healer who just oom'ed. On a similar line, get used to using your mouse to turn with, not the keyboard. in the length of time it takes you to keyboard turn to face a mob that just aggroed your healer, your healer could easily die. turn with your mouse, initiate skills with your keys. Even if it feels weird at first, it is DEFINITELY WORTH IT. start early if you have to.

2) in addition to knowing your hotkeys, Know the visual queues that turbine has in place for your parry and block reactives. These are critical for tanking (as well as DPS), and so knowing the visual queues will save you from having to glance down at your skills every second to see if your reactive chains are open.

3) Situational Awareness. It's a term I've coined for all the general awareness skills a tank needs that a DPS or healer does not. DPS will usually not go past their main target in relation to being aware (some don't even get that far!), and the healers will often have 95% of their attention on health bars (what I call the "Healing Zone"). Unfortunately, that means that someone needs to pay attention to everything else that's going on. having quick(er) reactions is a big plus in this (which is why #1 is so important).

Here's a few ways to increase your Situational Awareness outside of a group. The reason I developed these for new tanks is its a frustrating experience to have to "learn" tanking skills under the pressure of being in the lead of a group for the first time. Much better to have those skills down, or at least comfortable with them, so you can deal with the more global challenge of group interaction and communication. It's VERY easy to "zone in" when tanking initially...it's the stree reaction under pressure. so you want to break that zoning habit as soon as possible by getting used to "zoning out" when your tanking mob. These steps can help a great deal. so onto those tips:

First off, practice panning your camera around while your fighting solo mobs. By default holding down the left click and moving your mouse can accomplish this without turning your guard (this is key...don't turn away from the mob hehe). Practice identifying other objects in the field of view as your doing this....while your fighting! Those objects should be anything from non combat visual details (pots, stones, etc), to possible roaming mobs. What your trying to accomplish here is to get used to using your skills while keeping track of whats going on. this can be tough at first, especially if your also breaking the habit of keyboard turning or skill clicking. but just like those items, it's a critical step in becoming a better tank.

next, do the same thing but pull in more then one mob (solo). This time also add in cycling through the mobs and alternating skill use. as an example, you may hit mob A with sting and ward, then click on mob B and hit it with shield blow and vexing blow, then on mob C you may hit it with sting and retaliate, then back to mob A, etc. the key here is to get used to one, dealing with multiple mobs...two, getting used to spreading out your threat skills as well as dealing with holding aggro on multiple mobs, and 3, getting used to doing all of this while SCANNING THE ENVIRONMENT. being able to identify all that stuff that's going on around you is key to being an effective tank.

Last step is to learn how to position multiple mobs while doing all of the above. so basically do the same thing you did in step two above, but now try to herd the mobs into a group. take a few steps back, and rotate as you step back so the mobs follow you and "cone in". this can be really helpful if you want to hit a group of mobs with something like traited vexing blow, or sweeping cut. both of those skills hit in a smaller arc in front of you. By pulling back, the mobs temporarily funnel in towards you in a perfect arrangement for those skills! great way of organizing and controlling mobs. I'll even do this with groups that I know have solid AoE DPS skills (like champs and RK's). use this process to gather the mobs up, and let them go to town! (saving your AoE taunt for this really helps as well). But either way, get used to controlling the mobs byt pacing them and directing them this way.

NOTE: outside of those awareness tips above, if your still having problems breaking the "Zone in" tendency, then apply a concept I learned in real life Close quarters combat training. KEEP YOUR EYES MOVING. do not let them just sit on one aspect of the screen. force your eyes to move from one target to the next. there is evidence through research that the eyes are physiologically linked to the brains activities...simply forcing them to move can actually get your brain engaged and working faster! so if your having problems zoneing in on the mob in front of you, force yoru eyes to look at your healer...or the mob pounding them...or look one at a time at all the mobs you are fighting. If it helps, you can temporarily reduce the graphical animations on the screen in your graphics tab so theres not so much "busy stuff" going on on the screen (sometimes with all the spell animations, it's tough to see whats going on).

Situational Awareness is probably one of the most critical concepts that a tank can learn. I can always tell a tank thats new based on their reactions to whats going on around them...especially with multiple mobs. I ran GB the other day on a new RK as healer...there wasn't one fight where i didn't have at least one mob on me. the champion was actually holding threat on most the mobs...and the guardian spent most his time slowly spinning in place (keyboard turner) and fighting one mob at a time..usually not the one the DPS were hitting. it was a difficult group, but there were many things the tank could have done better if he would have been aware of what was going on. but his lack of situational awareness meant he was alwasy one step behind. I felt for him actually....you really feel bad in those situations, because most tanks WANT to do a good job. but without understanding how to gain those skills, many often just get frustrated and gie up. Hope this helps.

Great read.

I actually am coming back to playing my guard after 3 or 4 years... I left when the cap was 50 (and I had been at it for a while). Lots of re-learning to do... used to be a very solid tank... time to remember how again haha.