Good book...very applicable to forums, and particularly to the whole idea this thread is based on...
Won't hurt, won't help, so what's the point of wasting the resources?
What would help? Realizing that Creeps =/= Freeps and the sooner people stop trying to compare class to class the better. Creeps have strengths freeps don't and vice versa.
What would help? Changing PvP so that PvP can occur. Give each player an equal chance at both defeating and/or surviving his opponent. The current PvMP system is filled more with opposites than with comparisons. How about giving both sides equal access to CC, Damage, Healing, Resistances, Mitigations, Buffs, Debuffs, etc.? Speculate from there on how that can be done, but no one should be trying to pigeon hole any freep-to-creep or creep-to-freep class comparisons and using those as examples of OP or UP...
Frod - I think we've seen this same post 3 times now on different threads.
You say that you think a new Creep Tank class would hurt PvMP - but you give no reasons - care to elaborate?
The Dunlendings would not be a cavemen with a club. The thread has almost 6,000 views so they'll probably at least be a consideration for Turbine. .
I doubt it..
1) They'll read the many replies saying that it won't help
2) They'll see it got locked and want to know why, and actually read all of it..and they know pvp alot better than you
3) They'll probably know that your other thread for this got erased because it was getting pointless
It won't be under consideration, as there is no reason for an aggro gaining tank. They are right, the classes on freepside are MADE for pve. Not that they aren't good, but that they are MADE for pve. This game is mainly pve-based. Thats the reason why guards and other tank around. Am I saying that they are bad in pvp? No. Some are very good. But they weren't made for pvp. That is why there is no need for a true tank on creepside. They've made the classes so they don't need it. Having a class like that would just be useless fodder for freeps to farm (maybe thats what you really want )
Anyways, you're the one saying you were quoting polls, etc..this should be like candy for you..your chance to prove the your nim polls were right...they were going against it and you went back to your trolling self. And it wouldn't have made any different in this form or in general. Look at your thread, it was mainly alot of posts from this server, and you were arguing about polls from THIS server. So, try to relish in the poll...maybe it will help you
I enjoy a good debate like many do - but let's stay on Topic. FYI - I have changed my mind on many issues before - as an example - I thought it was a good idea to give Defiler's a WS option - but was convinced otherwise.
My response was on topic. On topic means talking about the same thing, not what you want to hear.
So if Reavers can't effectively tank now and if it is extremely unlikely that reducing the ranges of all ranged combat in PvMP will occur (see previous discussions) - what other ideas do you have to fix the Pew Pew problem?
Reavers CAN tank. The reason they don't is nothing is achieved when they stay in and get kited around by ranged classes that can indefinitely stay out of reach. Kinda the same fate that guards and champs find themselves in...
The biggest problem with PvMP besides balance is the Pew Pew fighting. How many melee classes do creeps have vs freeps. The Haradrim don't have to be another BA class.
I meant the warg riders as another BA. # of classes mean NOTHING. Look at yourself, you're complaining that there isn't enough melees in the moors. Not that there isn't enough diversity of the melees. If 5 reavers can do the same thing as 2 reavers, 2 cavemen, and one of these haradrim, why have the cavemen and haradrim?
Diversity causes far more problems than it solves. Work within the classes we have now, as there is no PvP role left unfilled on creepside. The only roles "lacking" are a BPE bypass (tactical) and, according to you, a "tank". Neither of those need to be filled, and neither would have a notable effect on PvMP.
Turbine is unlikely to sit on the game as it is (both PvE and PvMP). We will eventually see new creep classes and we will eventually see new maps or skirmishes for PvMP.
Eventually, yes. I, and every other sane person on this forum, can only hope that when they do come, it isn't at the cost of actually fixing the way PvP works.
Elaborate on this one please.
It was the next sentence you quoted...
I think this may have been true in past books but no longer. Bk 6 was ruled by Hunters, Bk 7 by BA's and this book by Wargs.
Currently Tactical = Resists and Squishy classes
Ok, Stealth > tactical > ranged > melee. Happy? Take wargs out of stealth and they're more than a joke and you know it. If you can see a warg coming that warg isn't going to have almost any impact, as they should be dead before they get within 20m.
Oooooh. Tactical classes hit 15% resists? That's horrible... I mean that almost equals the 12% block + 10% parry + ~8% evade that melee classes hit. Tactical classes got nerfed, yes. But they're still very much the top of the totem pole in PvP. It really doesn't matter how squishy you are if you can prevent yourself from being touched. Proof = # of 5-star guards vs 5-star burgs. Or the # of 5-star BAs vs the number of 5-star reavers.
Kiting is the most effective form of damage mitigation IN THE GAME. Tactical classes are the BEST at kiting. Doesn't matter if you can kill them in 5s if you catch them, if you can't catch them.
Reavers CAN tank. The reason they don't is nothing is achieved when they stay in and get kited around by ranged classes that can indefinitely stay out of reach. Kinda the same fate that guards and champs find themselves in...
Any class can tank but only tanks can be efficient damage sponges with proximity tanking (this is old news). You are saying the reasons why they don't stay and take out the squishy freeps (which they do all the time)... is because they kite? You forgot Reaver and Warg Hamstring, BA snare, BA/Spider Roots, Warg/Spider CJ's, Spider WtE, etc... right??
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
I meant the warg riders as another BA. # of classes mean NOTHING. Look at yourself, you're complaining that there isn't enough melees in the moors. Not that there isn't enough diversity of the melees. If 5 reavers can do the same thing as 2 reavers, 2 cavemen, and one of these haradrim, why have the cavemen and haradrim?
I think Warg Riders would be more of a double melee attack class (maul and spear thrust or even net toss). They might throw spears but it would be their weaker attack.
Freeps have plenty of diversity among melee classes and as a matter of fact - 5 of the 9 freep classes are Melee classes. Only 2 of the 6 Creep classes are melee classes (looks like creeps need a tank ).
In your example you cite that Reavers can do everything that a melee class needs to do - but this is false because none of them can tank like a true tank class can. 5 Champs can't do the same thing as 3 Champs and 1 Guard and 1 Warden right?
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Diversity causes far more problems than it solves.
Why - this makes no sense at all. The Defiler added a new dimension to Creep healing did it not? Creeps could PvP just fine when all they had were WL's for healing but this diversity improved creeps. Likewise the addition of the RK and Warden added to the diversity to freeps and also filled some gaps (and this is with 9 freep classes).
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Work within the classes we have now, as there is no PvP role left unfilled on creepside.
I just showed this to be false per above.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
The only roles "lacking" are a BPE bypass (tactical) and, according to you, a "tank". Neither of those need to be filled, and neither would have a notable effect on PvMP.
As pointed out above - A new creep class isn't imperative - balancing PvMP is more important to most (even the defiler wasn't a must). Adding diversity by adding new classes does improve PvMP from a number of perspectives (one we haven't talked about much is just getting more people interested in PvMP). To say they wouldn't have a notable effect can ONLY be determined or judged if you know exactly what the new class does and how strong they are - correct?
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Eventually, yes. I, and every other sane person on this forum, can only hope that when they do come, it isn't at the cost of actually fixing the way PvP works.
If people can hope and would like to see a new creep class then people should contribute to its possible creation. If you are in the camp that a new creep class would destroy PvMP then real reasons need to be forth to show this point of view. If you are neutral but know it will happen anyway - then why not also contribute?
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Ok, Stealth > tactical > ranged > melee. Happy? Take wargs out of stealth and they're more than a joke and you know it. If you can see a warg coming that warg isn't going to have almost any impact, as they should be dead before they get within 20m.
We disagree on this I know. This is how I see it this book (again prior books may have been different)
Stealth > tactical = ranged = melee.
However this still has no bearing at all on the issue of the Creep Tank Class. Even if you think melee is the weakest class type (I don't) - a New Creep Tank Class can end up being the most effective class of all depending on their abilities. Just because they are melee doesn't limit them so much that they can't be extremely effective if there abilities were strong enough.
I point to the Guards and Wardens as an example. They had a significant boost from last book making them much more effective than they use to be.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Oooooh. Tactical classes hit 15% resists? That's horrible... I mean that almost equals the 12% block + 10% parry + ~8% evade that melee classes hit. Tactical classes got nerfed, yes. But they're still very much the top of the totem pole in PvP. It really doesn't matter how squishy you are if you can prevent yourself from being touched. Proof = # of 5-star guards vs 5-star burgs. Or the # of 5-star BAs vs the number of 5-star reavers.
Tactical have misses in addition to resists. Many tactical's have inductions in addition to being squishy. Kiting only works when one side has no ability to CC (as per above creeps have plenty of CC). CC itself is nerfed over and over again. You can never "prevent" yourself from being touched from melee or range entirely (unless you are studying 1v1 fighting). Tactical may have been at the top of the totem pole in prior books but they are not anymore. Stars are a very bad example. Everyone knows that people with a high rating (or stars) are more concerned with staying alive than getting kills or they are leachers.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Kiting is the most effective form of damage mitigation IN THE GAME. Tactical classes are the BEST at kiting. Doesn't matter if you can kill them in 5s if you catch them, if you can't catch them.
Per above - what you think is a truism only holds.... if you study 1v1 combats.
Any class can tank but only tanks can be efficient damage sponges with proximity tanking (this is old news). You are saying the reasons why they don't stay and take out the squishy freeps (which they do all the time)... is because they kite? You forgot Reaver and Warg Hamstring, BA snare, BA/Spider Roots, Warg/Spider CJ's, Spider WtE, etc... right??
Because reavers and wargs don't get slowed or CC'd themselves...
Freeps have plenty of diversity among melee classes and as a matter of fact - 5 of the 9 freep classes are Melee classes. Only 2 of the 6 Creep classes are melee classes (looks like creeps need a tank ).
In your example you cite that Reavers can do everything that a melee class needs to do - but this is false because none of them can tank like a true tank class can. 5 Champs can't do the same thing as 3 Champs and 1 Guard and 1 Warden right?
In PvP? They effectively do the exact same thing. And the champ is best at it. Only reason you see guards and wardens more than champs is that they can still be effective without getting supported, champs cannot.
Beyond that, you're trying to "fix" the issue of reavers not standing and fighting by creating a class to stand and fight, rather than giving reavers reason to. Reavers are already capable damage sponges and tanks. No need to take that away from them.
Why - this makes no sense at all. The Defiler added a new dimension to Creep healing did it not? Creeps could PvP just fine when all they had were WL's for healing but this diversity improved creeps. Likewise the addition of the RK and Warden added to the diversity to freeps and also filled some gaps (and this is with 9 freep classes).
Wardens did nothing but encroach on guards. If they were not added, no one would have been affected in any way. Everything notable that a warden can do for a group can be done by a guardian.
Rks did nothing but step all over hunters, minstrels, and captains. If they were not added, no one would have been affected in any way.
With defilers, they were needed. WLs are burst healing, there wasn't a class designed around healing groups prior to defilers. A typical WL has TWO heals, one of which is single target. Defilers filled a severe gap in PvP- maintenance healing and out-of-combat resurrection.
This dunlending class that you're championing does not fill a PvP role that is not already filled. They would be just as uneccesary as wardens were. They would add nothing, change nothing, and just add to the amount of balance issues currently there without fixing any of them.
I just showed this to be false per above.
See, this is why people hate debating with you. You proved nothing, but now claim that my argument is invalid because you said "nah uh!".
As pointed out above - A new creep class isn't imperative - balancing PvMP is more important to most (even the defiler wasn't a must). Adding diversity by adding new classes does improve PvMP from a number of perspectives (one we haven't talked about much is just getting more people interested in PvMP). To say they wouldn't have a notable effect can ONLY be determined or judged if you know exactly what the new class does and how strong they are - correct?
They won't have an effect because they will be subject to the exact same imbalances that currently exist that go far beyond creep vs freep.
If people can hope and would like to see a new creep class then people should contribute to its possible creation. If you are in the camp that a new creep class would destroy PvMP then real reasons need to be forth to show this point of view. If you are neutral but know it will happen anyway - then why not also contribute?
I'm contributing by saying "Not that". Just because you don't want to hear it, doesn't mean it's not a contribution. A new creep class wouldn't do anything for PvMP except pull development time that could have been spent actually bettering PvP combat rather than PvP aesthetics.
We disagree on this I know. This is how I see it this book (again prior books may have been different)
Stealth > tactical = ranged = melee.
However this still has no bearing at all on the issue of the Creep Tank Class. Even if you think melee is the weakest class type (I don't) - a New Creep Tank Class can end up being the most effective class of all depending on their abilities. Just because they are melee doesn't limit them so much that they can't be extremely effective if there abilities were strong enough.
I point to the Guards and Wardens as an example. They had a significant boost from last book making them much more effective than they use to be.
More effective does not mean that they are now effective. 5 cents is more than 2 cents, but it still can't buy me something at McDonalds.
Tactical have misses in addition to resists.
Every single skill in the game can miss. Every skill has the exact same chance to miss unless specifically stated otherwise. Try again.
Many tactical's have inductions in addition to being squishy.
Many, but not all. Minstrels and Rks are more than capable of never using a single induction to kill things. Try again.
Kiting only works when one side has no ability to CC (as per above creeps have plenty of CC). CC itself is nerfed over and over again.
You contridict yourself. You say that CC is the answer, but CC has been nerfed. You see kiting in every single fight in the moors. Next champion or guard you see, ask them how often a WL kites them around. Try again.
You can never "prevent" yourself from being touched from melee or range entirely (unless you are studying 1v1 fighting).
This is true, the first target will always die, but if you're smart about it, you can easily avoid being targeted and stay out of range of the people that can kill you. Also, any class dies when FF and not able to break LoS on, regardless of armor value. Try again.
Tactical may have been at the top of the totem pole in prior books but they are not anymore.
Tactical classes still have the highest effective damage, lowest chance of not hitting their target, best mobility, and the best slows. Try again.
Stars are a very bad example. Everyone knows that people with a high rating (or stars) are more concerned with staying alive then getting kills or they are leachers.
Actually, that's why they're the perfect example. If squishy vs hvy armor meant so much, leechers and people that avoid death would be on classes that are exceedingly hard to kill. A guard can leech just as well as a hunter can, and is much harder to kill, but are not used as starfarming toons. Try again.
Per above - what you think is a truism only holds.... if you study 1v1 combats.
Talk to a few more champions and reavers then. I see them get kited non-stop in raid v raid situations. Try aga.... Hmm, it appears you're out of attempts.
Nice Debate Dag
I'm enjoying myself. Personally, I'm finding this debate is easier than playing a warg this book
Last edited by Apocalypse32100; Jun 25 2010 at 06:01 PM.
The other thread was locked for a reason, Ani... Nice way to turn a poll thread into a full on debate continuation from a locked thread...
Are you all insane, how many fkng times can u rehash a bunch of BS,
Stop the Insanity Please!
Thank you Geal.
And because I'm bored, here it goes.
Freeps have plenty of diversity among melee classes and as a matter of fact - 5 of the 9 freep classes are Melee classes. Only 2 of the 6 Creep classes are melee classes (looks like creeps need a tank ).
In your example you cite that Reavers can do everything that a melee class needs to do - but this is false because none of them can tank like a true tank class can. 5 Champs can't do the same thing as 3 Champs and 1 Guard and 1 Warden right?
Okay, from that count you're including Burglars and Captains. There's 2 problems with that - Burglars are a stealth class, and most captains (should, most don't, but in a perfect situation) will be healing. That's 2 melee classes out of the question. Thus leaving 3/9. Creeps have 2/6? What are you counting as their 2nd? WLs? Spiders? Neither of those are true melee classes and you know it.
Reavers - Mitigations, Morale, and BPE of tanks. ST DPS comprable to champs. Significant threat from Blood of Fire and straight up DPS. Are you saying Reavers are not proper tanks due to the lack of taunts? By my definition, a tank is a class that is capable of holding aggro without being too much of a burden on healers. Thus, by my definition, captains and champions are tanks - which they are, they both have trait lines for it. Okay, so reavers function as tanks, and DPS. So do champs. Argue all you want that creeps were not made for PvP. I'll tell you now you're wrong.
Ever wonder why creeps only have quests and areas to gain skills earned through PvP rank? Or why they have so many fewer skills than freeps? Why there's so much less customization?
Creeps are simple and effective - exactly what you need for PvP. They exist because Turbine thought to throw in PvP and the moors as an afterthought. The moors map is VERY simple geographically compared to other zones. Creeps are simple. The rewards are junky and haven't ever been able to stand toe to toe with Rift gear in SoA. They were worth using in SoA, yes, and they were nice, but the Rift set still beat them, most of the time.
If the moors hadn't existed, there would be no creeps. No creeps, means no PvP. There's creeps, and there's the moors. Creeps are the opposing force to battle. They cannot leave the moors. They were designed for PvP.
Your argument of "proximity tanking" (did I get the term right?) has some merit, yes, though not much honestly. Reavers will Charge right past you and BAs/Spiders will just tab over you to get the squishies in the back. Oftentimes unless the heavy is well known and a juicy target, they will get overlooked unless they're dishing out major DPS.
As for your 5 champ thing. If we're talking PvE, I'd rather have the 5 champs. Same in the moors. How they do it would be different, but it all comes down to this - they'd kill stuff.
Your argument that creeps need a tank is as such, invalid. Freeps do the same thing as creeps. Creeps were not designed for PvE, so they have Reavers to tank, and if they have enough of them, WLs can tank if they trait DPS and threat (not sure if the threat portion is right). Freeps were designed for PvE, thus they have 2 tanks.
Also, your assumption is way off. Dagstruction had it right, honestly, or pretty close. Personally I'd put Stealth = Tactical > Ranged > Melee. Though honestly it's so situational. Keep takes I'd want champs. TA camps I'd want Ranged. EC camps I'd want tactical. Stealth is useful at EC camps also, less so at TA and keep takes. Honestly if we're talking Raid vs Raid I'd say stealth is better for scouting than actual combat.
And... Tacticals. I get a single miss once in a blue moon on the RK, same with the LM. Same with the champ's crafted horn (which I believe is tactical, may be wrong). Resists are more common, but everybody has ways to lower their resists. RKs have more than most, but there are ways.
RK = Legacy, Chisel, Master of Connotation, Scribe's Spark Buff. (2 of those are traits) (Legacy = Penetrate Resist Target Skills or something along those lines.)
LM = Legacies (2) (Fire Skills? And Physical Resist)
Minstrel = Legacies (2) (Ballad and Call to War Skills) Why a mini would need those outside of 1v1 though... /shrug.
(too lazy to dig through and multi-quote you, deal with the wall of text )'
So... yeah. My 2c. And this will be my first and last post on this topic - it's gotten out of control, as have the Slither debates in glff.
Tactical classes don't know anything about inductions hurting them..ask hunters about inductions. Then see if they whine -.-
Btw anirien, this debate was stopped twice. Don't bring it up again. The mod's already decided it was over by the fact they locked your one thread and erased the other.
I want a little goblin (lone Lands) that shouts "die, die, die, die, die heheheheheeheh". Give him all the exact same skills as RK's have except epic conclusion would be he explodes and hits for 3 to 6.5k with crits. Now this class would be fun
Im not saying they don't have them..just saying..hunter's have long inductions for basically all of our skills for dps...LM's are main dps..and fire runekeeps still have alot of fire skills with decent induction if I can remember right...
I remember one time, Luglamluk went AFK and the freep raid decided to push on him. The creep raid rallied 'round him, healed him, and wiped the freep raid. He was a BA, and at that moment- a tank.
When he got back to the keyboard, he asked the raid: "Why do I have two stars now?" Now THAT is a tank!
Ahahaha, I remember that. I was leading on my reaver and he went afk in the little pocket outside east TA. He got 2 bubbles during the fight and concentrated heals and i don't think anyone else even took any damage except from AoEs.
Originally Posted by de4thm4ge411
Tactical classes don't know anything about inductions hurting them..ask hunters about inductions. Then see if they whine -.-
That's one of the funniest things I've heard. Ask Frost how much inductions don't matter when he spars me.
Because reavers and wargs don't get slowed or CC'd themselves...
Sure they do - unless all they are doing is darting combat on cooldowns.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
In PvP? They effectively do the exact same thing. And the champ is best at it. Only reason you see guards and wardens more than champs is that they can still be effective without getting supported, champs cannot.
Your contradiction shows why diversity works in PvMP. Not to mention Guards Shield Wall, Wardens Ambush, fear, etc... they have very different effects on PvMP.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Beyond that, you're trying to "fix" the issue of reavers not standing and fighting by creating a class to stand and fight, rather than giving reavers reason to. Reavers are already capable damage sponges and tanks. No need to take that away from them.
No - I am not trying to fix reaver's issue of not standing and fighting (as oppose to charging in and out). Likewise I am not trying to fix the warg's ability to dart away with sprint or HIPS. Behavior may change fighting styles but how a class is designed is what is at issue here. Reavers and Wargs are designed to do darting fighting - so why shouldn't they? No one is saying they shouldn't use their abilities. We are creating a fix to darting fighting (even if its only one part of a potential larger fix) by creating a True Creep Tank class that isn't designed for darting fighting. The Freep melee classes need some heavy infantry clashes to come back out to the moors and have fun.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Wardens did nothing but encroach on guards. If they were not added, no one would have been affected in any way. Everything notable that a warden can do for a group can be done by a guardian.
Not true. In PvE and in PvP proximity tanking. Wardens are better tanks when they can siphon (otherwise Guards are better). A Warden being an avoidance tank is harder to initially hit than a Guard but a Guard can take more damage if hit (this makes a big difference in PvP especially with CC). Self Heals, Heavy Shield, Ambush, Shield Wall, etc....
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Rks did nothing but step all over hunters, minstrels, and captains. If they were not added, no one would have been affected in any way.
Not true again. Hunters have greater range and greater ranged CC, Minstrel's do better group healing and buffs (RK's do better single target healing over time and debuffs), ... captains - confused about how they step over captains other than maybe a captain is a secondary healer (and primary buff) and a RK is a primary healer or DPS or debuffer.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
With defilers, they were needed. WLs are burst healing, there wasn't a class designed around healing groups prior to defilers. A typical WL has TWO heals, one of which is single target. Defilers filled a severe gap in PvP- maintenance healing and out-of-combat resurrection.
PvP worked just fine (as per your argument) - with just more WL's healing but I agree with you that Defilers did add more diversity.... just like Wardens and RKs do. A freep raid with Guards and Mini's functions significantly different from a freep raid with Wardens and RKs.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
This dunlending class that you're championing does not fill a PvP role that is not already filled. They would be just as uneccesary as wardens were. They would add nothing, change nothing, and just add to the amount of balance issues currently there without fixing any of them.
As I pointed out you can't make that assessment without understanding what the fully developed Dunlending can do. As I showed above - Wardens and RKs - they have added a new dimension without stepping on other classes.
Lets study what Dunlendings might do. After they nerf CJ's - the Dunlending will be able to lock down a freep longer than any other creep - with the Ambush, Bear Hug, and Head Butt combo. They also have the ability to throw a freep (as seen in other games) back into the main creep force. They can take more damage than any other creep class and they can adopt stances to change how they perform. They can also Self Rez. None of these abilities are even close to what creeps now have and they are not really a copy of anything in the game as it is now.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
They won't have an effect because they will be subject to the exact same imbalances that currently exist that go far beyond creep vs freep.
You are assuming that specific class types are more effective than others - this is not true anymore with the only exception being stealth classes (which happen to be melee classes).
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
A new creep class wouldn't do anything for PvMP except pull development time that could have been spent actually bettering PvP combat rather than PvP aesthetics.
This was an old debate. Remember most people would place PvMP balance first, Freep Rewards second, New Map third and a new Creep Class fourth in terms of priority but that doesn't mean that all of them can't happen even at one time (if not over time).
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
More effective does not mean that they are now effective. 5 cents is more than 2 cents, but it still can't buy me something at McDonalds.
If you created a game where there was 1 creep and 1 freep class you would still have PvMP right? Both sides can still defeat each other... but do you have a fun game with diversity? Don't you think over time people would want to see and play new classes if they are going to continue to play the same game?
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
You contridict yourself. You say that CC is the answer, but CC has been nerfed. You see kiting in every single fight in the moors. Next champion or guard you see, ask them how often a WL kites them around. Try again.
CC is the answer to kiting and you know it and wether it has been nerf'd or not is not relavant to this fact (it is just not as effective as it once was). In your example the WL just needs to be slowed with a hamstring or other type of CC from the freeps and that's the end of the WL kiting effectiveness.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
This is true, the first target will always die, but if you're smart about it, you can easily avoid being targeted and stay out of range of the people that can kill you. Also, any class dies when FF and not able to break LoS on, regardless of armor value. Try again.
This is all conditional - your example below is better.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Tactical classes still have the highest effective damage, lowest chance of not hitting their target, best mobility, and the best slows. Try again.
Try again - Hunter's have the highest effective damage and lowest chance of not hitting their target if in Precision Stance and the greatest range. Best Mobility (with no sprint, make haste or ambush charge?) - they get hit more often (with low armor and b/p/e) from BA snares, warg pounces, etc... Best Slow - not true again (with the exception of a mini's Call to War traited) - Hunter's have a 40m quick shot slow and Wardens have an on the run Hampering Javeling which are more effective than RK Chilling Rhetoric - once target is hit (even if traited) and LM's burning embers.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Actually, that's why they're the perfect example. If squishy vs hvy armor meant so much, leechers and people that avoid death would be on classes that are exceedingly hard to kill. A guard can leech just as well as a hunter can, and is much harder to kill, but are not used as starfarming toons. Try again.
Leeching is a behavioral problem not a class problem.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Talk to a few more champions and reavers then. I see them get kited non-stop in raid v raid situations. Try aga.... Hmm, it appears you're out of attempts.
All it takes is a CC or two on the target and Reaver and Champs can make short work of their victim - especially squishy tacticals. On my Reaver all it takes is a Hamstring and a couple of hits with 1 DS and its over for a tactical (with so low of morale it doesn't take much to bring them below half health).
---
Dagalace - I'll get to your post in a separate response.
Okay, from that count you're including Burglars and Captains. ...
I also included Champs, Guards and Wardens as freep melee classes. Wargs and Reavers for Creeps.
Originally Posted by huntermaniac
Reavers - Mitigations, Morale, and BPE of tanks....
According to their character sheets Reavers are suppose to have the equivalent to Medium Armor with WL's the equivalent to Heavy Armor. Reavers like Champs are not suppose to take as much damage as a tank. WL like captains usually function as support classes (heals, buffs, bubbles, snaps, banners, etc...)
Originally Posted by huntermaniac
Ever wonder why creeps only have quests and areas to gain skills earned through PvP rank? Or why they have so many fewer skills than freeps? Why there's so much less customization?
Freeps usually don't use more powers than what the creeps have for their disposal in a fast paced PvP combat - but I support Gothnon's idea to change this for the creeps.
Originally Posted by huntermaniac
Creeps are simple and effective - exactly what you need for PvP. They exist because Turbine thought to throw in PvP and the moors as an afterthought. The moors map is VERY simple geographically compared to other zones. Creeps are simple. The rewards are junky and haven't ever been able to stand toe to toe with Rift gear in SoA. They were worth using in SoA, yes, and they were nice, but the Rift set still beat them, most of the time.
See my post in this thread for a response to this as well...
Your argument of "proximity tanking" (did I get the term right?) has some merit, yes, though not much honestly. Reavers will Charge right past you and BAs/Spiders will just tab over you to get the squishies in the back. Oftentimes unless the heavy is well known and a juicy target, they will get overlooked unless they're dishing out major DPS.
Thanks for recognizing this - but your point is an "ideal". Everyone knows that Dwalin and Pharaz are probably some of the hardest freeps to take down but they'll attract fire from many creeps with proximity tanking. Freeps can clearly see what target the raid is calling out to be burned down but its easy to see a number of them don't go after that called target and instead go after the damage sponge. Ask them.
Originally Posted by huntermaniac
As for your 5 champ thing. If we're talking PvE, I'd rather have the 5 champs. Same in the moors. How they do it would be different, but it all comes down to this - they'd kill stuff.
5 champs can produce more DPS than 3 champs and 1 guard and 1 warden but the diverse combo is more effective in most PvP situations. An example would be a warden doing an ambush to be the first one in to proximity tank, the guard then can shield wall the warden while the warden does an AoE fear for CC and the champs AoE DPS. It is more likely that the 5 champ party would loose one of their champs before the more diverse party and likewise the CC that the more diverse party did will cause less of the creeps an option to get away from the fight.
Originally Posted by huntermaniac
Your argument that creeps need a tank is as such, invalid. Freeps do the same thing as creeps. Creeps were not designed for PvE, so they have Reavers to tank, and if they have enough of them, WLs can tank if they trait DPS and threat (not sure if the threat portion is right). Freeps were designed for PvE, thus they have 2 tanks.
See my reply just above this one - I just gave you a very specific example why freeps would need a tank. Creeps are no different. A Dunlending would serve a similar function as the warden did in this example (with an even longer lock down). This specific example shows that adding a creep tank is valid.
Originally Posted by huntermaniac
And... Tacticals. I get a single miss once in a blue moon on the RK, same with the LM. Same with the champ's crafted horn (which I believe is tactical, may be wrong). Resists are more common, but everybody has ways to lower their resists. RKs have more than most, but there are ways.
Increased creep mitigations has also had a big impact on lessing Tactical's effectiveness as has diminishing returns. I pointed out that a hunter in Precision stance does more real damage than any tactical class does since a hunter typically won't miss in this stance and also has a longer range with a greater variety of DPS attacks.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
I've more than made my point. You've begun repeating yourself using defeated arguments, and have lost what credibility you still had.
Enjoy never understanding just how long ago you lost.
-Dag
Dag - a person debating with another doesn't have to tell the other that they lost - all they need to do is to present an example that the other can't refute... to disprove the other's argument. I just gave you specific examples of classes and their specific powers for much of your last post that have not been repeated before
Dag - a person debating with another rational person doesn't have to tell the other rational person that they lost - all they need to do is to present an example that the other can't refute... to disprove the other's argument.
Fixed it for you Ani. There's a reason he brings it up.
I see you haven't refuted the fact that creeps were created primarily for PVP. Keep ignoring it junior.
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Fixed it for you Ani. There's a reason he brings it up.
I see you haven't refuted the fact that creeps were created primarily for PVP. Keep ignoring it junior.
Rational people know why the creeps were created and rational people know why free people were created. Rational people also know that freeps can PvP just as well as creeps and visa versa - your point?
That's one of the funniest things I've heard. Ask Frost how much inductions don't matter when he spars me.
It was a bit of a joke :P Don't worry, I have a baby rk (only lvl 31), and I even know by then that fire inductions are a pain :P But at least theres also some nice really fast induction skills that are awsome :P
Rational people know why the creeps were created and rational people know why free people were created. Rational people also know that freeps can PvP just as well as creeps and visa versa - your point?
The point is that, while a tank class, like guardians, can act very well in the moors, the only reason why they are in existence, as a tank class like that, is because of pve.
The point is that, while a tank class, like guardians, can act very well in the moors, the only reason why they are in existence, as a tank class like that, is because of pve.
So what... Does this make them a class that is not effective in PvP...? Or is this the reason why some creeps have a perception that melee is supposedly a less effective class in the moors?
If this is your supposition - I already debunked it with an example that can't be refuted above... see the 5 champ team vs 3 champs + a Warden + a Guard example.
This thread is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. Of course creepside doesn't need a tank class. What class isn't a tank class on creepside? The only reason this thread exists and why the other thread is kept alive is because you friggin' losers are so obsessed with Anirien. Get the F over it. If you don't like him, move on. I keep forgetting the majority of you are children.
In the 'moors, if I'm tying to survive but you're killing me anyway, you're probably not an ally. Say NO! to killing me!
Ani, let it die. Just let it die. Instead of attempting to contribute to ideas to fix the current state of the moors you are still trying to argue the theory that creeps need a tank class. That theory has been dismantled many times by different people, freep and creeps.
This is a poll thread, not a discussion. Y/N then move on. General opinion becomes self-evident pretty quickly lacking a long-winded, circular argument to fan it.
"There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them."
Leavit, I just wanted to say that I feel bad that you're thread got turned into this stupid mess..as a consolation I'll attempt to return this thread to what it was meant to be.
Do I think that a new Monsterplay class..this "Tank" class, would hurt or help PvMp?
-Hurt-
Thank you.
If this is your supposition - I already debunked it with an example that can't be refuted above... see the 5 champ team vs 3 champs + a Warden + a Guard example.
I like cake, do you like cake? Y/N. I like pie also.....discuss
Creeps are obviously in no need of cake, what creep doesn't have cake?
If you give a creep a piece of cake.... at least give the freeps some pie.
Pie > Cake
Mediocre minds are always jealous, and inclined to surround themselves with persons of little ability, fearing the reputation of being led...
Creeps are obviously in no need of cake, what creep doesn't have cake?
If you give a creep a piece of cake.... at least give the freeps some pie.
Pie > Cake
Creeps are obviously in no need of cake, what creep doesn't have cake?
If you give a creep a piece of cake.... at least give the freeps some pie.
Pie > Cake
OMG!!!!! You are so wrong!!!!!11111 Freeps don't need pastries, look at all the fat Dwarves and Hobbitesess!!!!! PIE > CAKE??!!! ARE YOU INSANE!!!!! You are obviously a trolling, QQing NOOB!!!!11111
PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD!!!!1111
Last edited by Gladgilrian; Jun 26 2010 at 10:49 AM.
Now appearing daily with 2 shows on weekends in GW2
The idea that creeps are better suited towards PvP than creeps is a comlete fallacy. They are both built for PvE and PvP.
Are there powers that freeps have that are more applicable to PvE than PvP - sure - Song of the Dead is another example but that doesn't change a freep's effectiveness in PvP (A freep would never try to use Song of the Dead on a creep for instance). Likewise - Proximity tanking is something that is real in PvP - and it doesn't need PvE threat generation skills.
funny you say that, you trait for threat generation =p
*Say YES to healing in the moors
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