I'm not sure it would hurt Creeps because only the nubs will roll them, but it would certainly help Freeps increase renown gains. Hell, who on Freepside doesn't want a bunch of blue and green rings that are penalized by grouping with healers. No need for tanks in PvP, thats apparent by all the Guards in OP. Thumbs down on creep tank.
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Leavit - you would see much better results to this poll if it was on the General Monsterplay forum than on our server forum.
There is no real reason why a new tank class for creeps would hurt in any way.
The reasons given so far are that Warleaders and Reavers can tank - this is old news - they are off-tanks. Adding to the PvE mentality - LOL - I suppose Guards and Wardens add to the PvE mentality too? Spidey says that only noobs would roll them and that they would be too easy to kill - you can do much better than that Spidey - they haven't yet been developed so how do you know this ?
Leavit - you would see much better results to this poll if it was on the General Monsterplay forum than on our server forum.
There is no real reason why a new tank class for creeps would hurt in any way.
The reasons given so far are that Warleaders and Reavers can tank - this is old news - they are off-tanks. Adding to the PvE mentality - LOL - I suppose Guards and Wardens add to the PvE mentality too? Spidey says that only noobs would roll them and that they would be too easy to kill - you can do much better than that Spidey - they haven't yet been developed so how do you know this ?
LOL
Guards and Wardens are mainly for PVE.
In PVP, anyone can tank.
You're mindset is all wrong, man- keep PVE out of the moors. We don't need a "tank class" We already have them- spiders, wargs, reavers, WLs, Defilers, BAs. Anyone can "tank" if they have the heals to go with it.
I remember one time, Luglamluk went AFK and the freep raid decided to push on him. The creep raid rallied 'round him, healed him, and wiped the freep raid. He was a BA, and at that moment- a tank.
When he got back to the keyboard, he asked the raid: "Why do I have two stars now?" Now THAT is a tank!
Last edited by Aeginor; Jun 25 2010 at 10:58 AM.
The Original Kin Collector! Leader, Fend For Yourself Successor, Disciples of Annuminas Officer, Fellowship Of Eriador Member, Vinyara Member, Lords of the West Member, SleeplessKnights Recruit, Sons Of Durin
Leavit - you would see much better results to this poll if it was on the General Monsterplay forum than on our server forum.
There is no real reason why a new tank class for creeps would hurt in any way.
The reasons given so far are that Warleaders and Reavers can tank - this is old news - they are off-tanks. Adding to the PvE mentality - LOL - I suppose Guards and Wardens add to the PvE mentality too? Spidey says that only noobs would roll them and that they would be too easy to kill - you can do much better than that Spidey - they haven't yet been developed so how do you know this ?
Easy, Vet Creeps aren't going to want to reroll a new class that is so far behind the 8 ball compared to all the other Creeps, especially one that is penalized by grouping with healers, what can't you understand about that?
Guards and Wardens traited as tanks are useless in PvP. Do you trait your Warden for the moors as you would for BG? Of course not. Creeps can't be tanked, we are immune to threat generation. You don't even need them to take keeps. I tank CG's on my Spider. I can tank a Tyrant on my Burg or Hunter, hardly tanking classes. I got news for you, ANY class can tank if you throw enough heals at it.
Don't turn this into another thread that will be locked, I answered honestly and respectfully, please show me the same respect.
Last edited by Gladgilrian; Jun 25 2010 at 11:08 AM.
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LOL
Guards and Wardens are mainly for PVE.
In PVP, anyone can tank.
Off insulting our Guards and Wardens again Mauzak? Many creeps say that they are low priority targets because they are so tough and some say not as effective as other freep classes. As I pointed out before this is a fallacy based on their effectiveness from past books. This perception would obviously bias creeps against a new creep tank class.
You say that any creep class can currently tank....
You know it takes far less healers to heal a tank than it does other squishier classes - right?
Yes - you can tank creeps and freeps with proximity tanking. This again is old news.
Off insulting our Guards and Wardens again Mauzak? Many creeps say that they are low priority targets because they are so tough and some say not as effective as other freep classes. As I pointed out before this is a fallacy based on their effectiveness from past books. This perception would obviously bias creeps against a new creep tank class.
You say that any creep class can currently tank - duh...
You know it takes far less healers to heal a tank than it does other squishier classes - right?
How is that an insult?
All freep classes are mainly for PVE. PVP is an afterthought to turbine.
Just like all creep classes ARE for PVP. We don't need a PVE class.
QED
Just like your freep goggles have a PVE perceptional bias? Pfft
The Original Kin Collector! Leader, Fend For Yourself Successor, Disciples of Annuminas Officer, Fellowship Of Eriador Member, Vinyara Member, Lords of the West Member, SleeplessKnights Recruit, Sons Of Durin
Off insulting our Guards and Wardens again Mauzak? Many creeps say that they are low priority targets because they are so tough and some say not as effective as other freep classes. As I pointed out before this is a fallacy based on their effectiveness from past books. This perception would obviously bias creeps against a new creep tank class.
You say that any creep class can currently tank - duh...
You know it takes far less healers to heal a tank than it does other squishier classes - right?
Ummmmm, Aeginor has a 65 Warden........he didn't insult them, he stated a fact. Threat generation is useless in PvP, that leaves damage sponge for roles for tanks, if we refuse to target them then thats out the window too. I wish threat did work in PvP, say using forced taunts would lock the Creep on that target, then it would be useful and I'd be all for a Creep class that could do the same thing, but thats NEVER going to happen in this game, it would change the mechanics of the moors.
I'm done with you, its obvious that all you want to do is attack people instead of having a discussion, good luck with life.
Last edited by Gladgilrian; Jun 25 2010 at 11:26 AM.
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I don't think it would hurt or help creeps, just be basically useless, creeps have unique skills that requires not needing a tank (all the dots, fears, mezzes etc).
Ummmmm, Aeginor has a 65 Warden........he didn't insult them, he stated a fact. Threat generation is useless in PvP, that leaves damage sponge for roles for tanks, if we refuse to target them then thats out the window too. I wish threat did work in PvP, say using forced taunts would lock the Creep on that target, then it would be useful and I'd be all for a Creep class that could do the same thing, but thats NEVER going to happen in this game, it would change the mechanics of the moors.
I'm done with you, its obvious that all you want to do is attack people instead of having a discussion, good luck with life.
Spidey he continues on with saying creeps are made for PvP and freeps are made for PvE... what kind of statement is that?
There is a difference between agro tanking in PvE and and proximity tanking in PvP. You will say that creeps (or freeps) will refuse to attack an obvious tank or damage sponge. That may hold for some players but I can tell you as can Dwalin, Pharaz, etc... that it is easy to draw player fire with proximity tanking. I ranked my Warden faster than any of my other characters with proximity tanking.
I am not insulting anyone here - if you are concerned about the effect insults have (especially on kids) ... then stop cussing at people in your raids.
Spidey he continues on with saying creeps are made for PvP and freeps are made for PvE... what kind of statement is that?
Uh, a truthful one?
Why do you think they disable mounted tracking and in combat DF in the moors? Because they were made with PVE in mind.
QED
The Original Kin Collector! Leader, Fend For Yourself Successor, Disciples of Annuminas Officer, Fellowship Of Eriador Member, Vinyara Member, Lords of the West Member, SleeplessKnights Recruit, Sons Of Durin
Uh, a truthful one?
Why do you think they disable mounted tracking and in combat DF in the moors? Because they were made with PVE in mind.
QED
The idea that creeps are better suited towards PvP than creeps is a comlete fallacy. They are both built for PvE and PvP.
Are there powers that freeps have that are more applicable to PvE than PvP - sure - Song of the Dead is another example but that doesn't change a freep's effectiveness in PvP (A freep would never try to use Song of the Dead on a creep for instance). Likewise - Proximity tanking is something that is real in PvP - and it doesn't need PvE threat generation skills.
The idea that creeps are better suited towards PvP than creeps is a comlete fallacy. They are both built for PvE and PvP.
Are there powers that freeps have that are more applicable to PvE than PvP - sure - Song of the Dead is another example but that doesn't change a freep's effectiveness in PvP (A freep would never try to use Song of the Dead on a creep for instance). Likewise - Proximity tanking is something that is real in PvP - and it doesn't need PvE threat generation skills.
I did not say better suited, I said created primarily for. That is where you fail.
If I wanted to PVE all day, I'd do it on my freep. If I wanted to PVP all day, I'd do it on my creep.
Be a man and admit you were wrong, that your thinking was off, and everything will be OK.
Oh, and tossing a few apologies to the people who you defamed wouldn't go far amiss either.
The Original Kin Collector! Leader, Fend For Yourself Successor, Disciples of Annuminas Officer, Fellowship Of Eriador Member, Vinyara Member, Lords of the West Member, SleeplessKnights Recruit, Sons Of Durin
I did not say better suited, I said created primarily for. That is where you fail.
If I wanted to PVE all day, I'd do it on my freep. If I wanted to PVP all day, I'd do it on my creep.
Be a man and admit you were wrong, that your thinking was off, and everything will be OK.
Oh, and tossing a few apologies to the people who you defamed wouldn't go far amiss either.
Stay on topic - and I'll do the same.
Both freeps and creeps need to have gold and stones for pots, traits, food, etc... correct? How do both sides obtain these? Through PvE correct?
Are creeps better suited for PvE - yes they are... Why - because creeps currently have higher defenses than freeps do. Creeps can go into the delving and kill NPC's and bosses with greater ease and with fewer numbers than freeps can.
Is there more PvE content for freeps - yes.
If you want to PvMP you can either come to the moors on a Freep or Creep and they are both equally suited to do so - correct???
Both freeps and creeps need to have gold and stones for pots, traits, food, etc... correct? How do both sides obtain these? Through PvE correct?
Are creeps better suited for PvE - yes they are... Why - because creeps currently have higher defenses than freeps do. Creeps can go into the delving and kill NPC's and bosses with greater ease and with fewer numbers than freeps can.
Is there more PvE content for freeps - yes.
If you want to PvMP you can either come to the moors on a Freep or Creep and they are both equally suited to do so - correct???
You go off topic, lose the logical argument, and then beg for me to stay on topic?
I said created. You try the straw man, and you end up looking silly.
Until you can admit that creeps were created for PVP, we're done.
When creeps have have a free run in the shire or bree, then we'll talk.
The Original Kin Collector! Leader, Fend For Yourself Successor, Disciples of Annuminas Officer, Fellowship Of Eriador Member, Vinyara Member, Lords of the West Member, SleeplessKnights Recruit, Sons Of Durin
balance the current creep classes before coming out with new ones. i wasn't in favor of wardens or rk's either.
I guarantee your level 65 r0 greenie BA will contribute more to your Creep raid than my level 2 Minstrel will contribute to my Freep raid. After all, both took about 5 seconds to create.
Ummmmm, Aeginor has a 65 Warden........he didn't insult them, he stated a fact. Threat generation is useless in PvP, that leaves damage sponge for roles for tanks, if we refuse to target them then thats out the window too. I wish threat did work in PvP, say using forced taunts would lock the Creep on that target, then it would be useful and I'd be all for a Creep class that could do the same thing, but thats NEVER going to happen in this game, it would change the mechanics of the moors.
Or do it like WAR and make it so you taunt decreases their outgoing dmg to anyone but that tank and increases incoming dmg from the tank. On top of that have a constant shield wall type skill but it only absorbs a certain %. Something small but helpful? WAR made tanks ESSENTIAL for pvp. =/ Too bad other games can't do this. Also too bad WAR failed.
You go off topic, lose the logical argument, and then beg for me to stay on topic?
I said created. You try the straw man, and you end up looking silly.
Until you can admit that creeps were created for PVP, we're done.
When creeps have have a free run in the shire or bree, then we'll talk.
Mauzak I can quote your earlier posts about goggles and other stuff but then we'll be off topic.
If I were to say that creeps were only created for PvP then it would be false. NPC's have always existed in the moors correct?
The topic revolves around the wether or not a Creep Class would hurt or help creepside. There has yet to be a substantiated reason why having a new creep class would hurt creepside. Everyone agrees that Turbine's focus should be on balancing PvMP first and the majority agree that creeps have it easy this book.
An argument has been made that tanks are only needed for PvE and I pointed out that proximity tanking occurs in PvP all the time and that it is more efficient to use a tank as a damage sponge than any other class.
An argument was then made that Guardians and Wardens are really for PvE and I pointed out that creeps PvE as well and they can actually PvE better than freeps can (thus the balance issue with creep defenses) - but that doesn't preclude the need creeps have for a tank - especially since it is likely we'll see a nerf of creepside in a new update.
I have also pointed out on the original Monster Play thread that a new Creep Tank Class would likely bring out more freep melee classes (and therefore less tactical and ranged classes) in addition to helping reducing the Pew Pew problem.
If you want creepside to have more PvE content - I think most would agree with you. Gothnon has some great suggestions on this and I was probably the first on our server to introduce the concept of allowing Monster Players in skirmishes - see:
Frod - I think we've seen this same post 3 times now on different threads.
You say that you think a new Creep Tank class would hurt PvMP - but you give no reasons - care to elaborate?
The Dunlendings would not be a cavemen with a club. The thread has almost 6,000 views so they'll probably at least be a consideration for Turbine. See:
There have been many other suggestions for creep classes. I really don't think we will see a Goblin Sapper (even though it is popular among creeps) - an AoE Tactical Creep class would likely reduce the number of freep melee classes that PvMP since it will increase the Pew Pew problem with PvMP. I hope that they actually create 3 new creep classes over the multi-year plan they have for LOTRO. I think the most likely first one will be the Dunlending if PvMP is expanded late this year and into next year. Later next year (or after) we'll see Rohan (Kate has mentioned that they haven't scrapped their plans for mounted combat) - as a result - I think we'll see the second new creep class be a Goblin Warg Rider. The third new creep class would be when we are at Gondor and it'll likely be a Haradrim.
Frod - I think we've seen this same post 3 times now on different threads.
You say that you think a new Creep Tank class would hurt PvMP - but you give no reasons - care to elaborate?
The Dunlendings would not be a cavemen with a club. The thread has almost 6,000 views so they'll probably at least be a consideration for Turbine (although everyone would admit that improving PvMP isn't Turbines primary focus).
There have been many other suggestions for creep classes. I really don't think we will see a Goblin Sapper (even though it is popular among creeps). I hope that they actually create 3 new creep classes over the multi-year plan they have for LOTRO. I think the most likely first one will be the Dunlending if PvMP is expanded late this year and into next year. Later next year (or after) we'll see Rohan (Kate has mentioned that they haven't scrapped their plans for mounted combat) - as a result - I think we'll see the second new creep class be a Goblin Warg Rider. The third new creep class would be when we are at Gondor and it'll likely be a Haradrim.
6000 views? That's almost as much as Paris Hilton had of the video of her eating breakfast one morning, and it was just as relevant to LOTRO as your CLOSED thread was too.
Buhbye!
The Original Kin Collector! Leader, Fend For Yourself Successor, Disciples of Annuminas Officer, Fellowship Of Eriador Member, Vinyara Member, Lords of the West Member, SleeplessKnights Recruit, Sons Of Durin
Frod - I think we've seen this same post 3 times now on different threads.
You say that you think a new Creep Tank class would hurt PvMP - but you give no reasons - care to elaborate?
Hundreds of reasons have been given, and your only counter to them has effectively been "nah uh!". There's no reason to debate when you decided a long time ago that you know everything.
The biggest reason a creep tank would do nothing is because it does nothing to address the cause of anything. Reavers can very easily stay in and fight, but the sheer power of ranged DPS prevents them from doing so. Address the fundamental failures of the combat system, and PvP will improve greatly.
The Dunlendings would not be a cavemen with a club. The thread has almost 6,000 views so they'll probably at least be a consideration for Turbine (although everyone would admit that improving PvMP isn't Turbines primary focus).
Views =/= people. It won't get consideration because you had almost zero support for it, and never effectively countered the arguments against it. Then of course, it would need to be read by more than just the community team, and probably not being locked would help it as well. Btw, linking locked threads (besides announcement threads) is against forum rules.
There have been many other suggestions for creep classes. I really don't think we will see a Goblin Sapper (even though it is popular among creeps). I hope that they actually create 3 new creep classes over the multi-year plan they have for LOTRO. I think the most likely first one will be the Dunlending if PvMP is expanded late this year and into next year. Later next year (or after) we'll see Rohan (Kate has mentioned that they haven't scrapped their plans for mounted combat) - as a result - I think we'll see the second new creep class be a Goblin Warg Rider. The third new creep class would be when we are at Gondor and it'll likely be a Haradrim.
So your idea is to add 3 classes that.... would do nothing new? 2 melee classes and a BA with a different appearance? That's gonna do wonders for PvP...
There is absolutely NO NEED for new classes in the moors. The current classes are perfectly fine, but there a basic imbalance that isn't seen in PvE due to mobs not taking advantage of weaknesses, but is a glaring issue in PvP.
Tactical > Ranged > Melee, the exact opposite of how it should be.
Last edited by Apocalypse32100; Jun 25 2010 at 01:52 PM.
Mauzak I can quote your earlier posts about goggles and other stuff but then we'll be off topic.
If I were to say that creeps were only created for PvP then it would be false. NPC's have always existed in the moors correct?
I said created primarily. Try to nitpick all you want, but logic is still stubbornly staring at you in the face. You'll have to open your eyes sometime.
The Original Kin Collector! Leader, Fend For Yourself Successor, Disciples of Annuminas Officer, Fellowship Of Eriador Member, Vinyara Member, Lords of the West Member, SleeplessKnights Recruit, Sons Of Durin
I said created primarily. Try to nitpick all you want, but logic is still stubbornly staring at you in the face. You'll have to open your eyes sometime.
You'd be surprised how many people ignore obvious facts and logic. Some go their whole lives doing it.
Hundreds of reasons have been given, and your only counter to them has effectively been "nah uh!". There's no reason to debate when you decided a long time ago that you know everything.
I enjoy a good debate like many do - but let's stay on Topic. FYI - I have changed my mind on many issues before - as an example - I thought it was a good idea to give Defiler's a WS option - but was convinced otherwise.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
The biggest reason a creep tank would do nothing is because it does nothing to address the cause of anything. Reavers can very easily stay in and fight, but the sheer power of ranged DPS prevents them from doing so. Address the fundamental failures of the combat system, and PvP will improve greatly.
So if Reavers can't effectively tank now and if it is extremely unlikely that reducing the ranges of all ranged combat in PvMP will occur (see previous discussions) - what other ideas do you have to fix the Pew Pew problem?
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
So your idea is to add 3 classes that.... would do nothing new? 2 melee classes and a BA with a different appearance? That's gonna do wonders for PvP...
The biggest problem with PvMP besides balance is the Pew Pew fighting. How many melee classes do creeps have vs freeps. The Haradrim don't have to be another BA class.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
There is absolutely NO NEED for new classes in the moors.
Turbine is unlikely to sit on the game as it is (both PvE and PvMP). We will eventually see new creep classes and we will eventually see new maps or skirmishes for PvMP.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
The current classes are perfectly fine, but there a basic imbalance that isn't seen in PvE due to mobs not taking advantage of weaknesses, but is a glaring issue in PvP.
Elaborate on this one please.
Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100
Tactical > Ranged > Melee, the exact opposite of how it should be.
I think this may have been true in past books but no longer. Bk 6 was ruled by Hunters, Bk 7 by BA's and this book by Wargs.
Currently Tactical = Resists and Squishy classes
Originally Posted by babaju2
just wanted to say that tactical has already been nerfed to HELL. My reaver can now get like 15% tactical resist, but I seem to resist more than that. And that counts tactical debuffs too. Mobs also have very high resists now.
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Originally Posted by Anirien
Leavit - you would see much better results to this poll if it was on the General Monsterplay forum than on our server forum.
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