Thread: How is champ tanking?

Compared to a guardian or a warden, how well can champs tank? How easily can they hold agro and how is their survivability?

May I direct you to this thread.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=325220

You may, but that thread exists in a bubble and offers no comparison to wardens or guardians.

A good champ can tank every piece of content in the game, except the latest Raid, Barad Guldur. A great champ could (and probably many have) main tank that as well. I know we have used a champ as the "2nd tank" for BG.

Champ tanking is a lot of fun, but requires some good decision making and definetely good gear. Tanking on a champ is about tradeoffs. You hold aggro through DPS, but the things you do to increase DPS decrease your survivability (fervour, using no shield etc.). As long as you have a good healer, you can just go all out DPS and keep alive for most things but if the group is weak or the content hard you have some important choices to make.

Personally I stopped leveling my Guardian in favor of my champ because I can tank any of the content I am interested in (newer 3/6 mans, older raids) and do more DPS at the same time.

Originally Posted by cdhollan

Compared to a guardian or a warden, how well can champs tank? How easily can they hold agro and how is their survivability?

If the gear, traits, etc are even, a guardian definitely tanks better than a champ. Guardians generate threat via taunts and reactive skills, whereas a champ generates threat through pure dps. If a good champ is going balls-out with dps, it's pretty hard for somebody else to pull the aggro from him. Champs also have access to aggro management skills (Rising Ire and Ebbing Ire) which they can use to either take aggro from someone you don't want to have it (usually mini/rk/hunter) or slough it off to the main tank.

That being said, guards are the better tanks because their defense and mitigations are better. A healer doesn't have to work quite as hard to keep a guardian alive as he would a champ, which means he also has more time and power to heal the rest of the group.

As for wardens, I don't have any personal experience. However, having grouped a lot with them, I can say that:

1) wardens need more time to generate aggro than either guards or champs,
2) the group has to understand this and let the warden get in a few swings to build up threat before they start blasting,
3) wardens have morale leeches and other defensive buffs to increase their survivability, and
3) if a warden isn't traited for threat, he's not gonna keep aggro.

Wardens may disagree with #4, but in my experience it's true 99% of the time. It's also true that warden is a very advanced class with a huge skill curve. A properly geared/traited warden who plays the class well is almost *impossible* to steal aggro from.

So, as with guards, a champ can't take quite as big a beating as a warden, all else being equal. But, their aggro generation is bigger and faster.

Champ tanking is a blast, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that champs are the preferred tanks for 3-man content. The combination of durability and raw dps is perfect for those instances. But if you plan to roll a champ to tank, don't. The first, best love of a champ is dishing out beatdowns to as many mobs as possible, and if you're worried about staying alive you're not embracing the shing-shing.

Originally Posted by orccrusher

As for wardens, I don't have any personal experience. However, having grouped a lot with them, I can say that:

1) wardens need more time to generate aggro than either guards or champs,
2) the group has to understand this and let the warden get in a few swings to build up threat before they start blasting,
3) wardens have morale leeches and other defensive buffs to increase their survivability, and
3) if a warden isn't traited for threat, he's not gonna keep aggro.

Wardens may disagree with #4, but in my experience it's true 99% of the time. It's also true that warden is a very advanced class with a huge skill curve. A properly geared/traited warden who plays the class well is almost *impossible* to steal aggro from.

i would disagree with #4, but there is no #4. Very few warden's actually trait for threat, its just not worthwhile versus other lines. Warden's don't really need the bonus threat, if they know what they are doing. Force taunt != generating aggro, btw. OP should take your "experience" with a really big grain of salt.

Originally Posted by sunaris

i would disagree with #4, but there is no #4. Very few warden's actually trait for threat, its just not worthwhile versus other lines. Warden's don't really need the bonus threat, if they know what they are doing. Force taunt != generating aggro, btw. OP should take your "experience" with a really big grain of salt.

Don't hate. You'll notice I also said a warden "who plays the class well is almost *impossible* to steal aggro from". Really good wardens are even better tanks that guards, in my opinion. It just seems like there are very few really good wardens out there.

Originally Posted by orccrusher

Don't hate. You'll notice I also said a warden "who plays the class well is almost *impossible* to steal aggro from". Really good wardens are even better tanks that guards, in my opinion. It just seems like there are very few really good wardens out there.

touche......

but just so you know, very few warden's trait the fist(threat) line.

my question is why tank on a champ when you can shing shing?

Because there are plenty of times when a guardian or a warden simply isn't an option.

Well, I'd like to offer a counter to a statement/idea that I saw several times in the above posts: Champions gain and hold agro through pure DPS

While that is true for everything but BG, you are misrepresenting champ tanking at its highest, most difficult level.
This is typical champ mindset speaking, but if you want to tank the hardest content with your champ you need to drop your typical champ mindset and start thinking like a tank.

In BG, you should not be using DPS to tank if you are the main or 2nd tank. There is little to no reason for this. Your job is not to dps, your job is to get and keep agro.
We have this wonderful stance called Glory which gives you +60% threat.
THAT is how you gain and hold agro in end-game content. Also through the use of Ferocious Strikes, Raging Blades and traited Wild Attack, all of which create extra threat beyond just their damage. You also have rising ire to use on a dps class or healer in your group.
But you don't do it with DPS. (Again, I'm talking about hardest content here, don't be bringin up SG please). Also note that martial bonus champ challenge generates some threat as well. Don't burn your challenge on initial pulls if you can avoid it, bow shot it and WA it real quick instead and save the challenge for emergencies. And trust me, a single quick champ challenge saved for the right moment can be the difference between a wipe and Lt HM kill.

You are making yourself a liability if you are trying to Fervour tank a Fire-sword in BG. You will die faster than even your best healers can heal you, unless all the healers are focusing on you, which leaves the other tank with no heals, so again, its counterproductive.

I off tank BG weekly on my champ and since that is the more important role for me as a champ these days, I've really focused on being the best I can in this area. When full traited and geared I have as much or more morale as our guards or warden.
I have capped melee defense, but the bigger deal is crit defense. This is where Guardians have a big advantage over Champs. I have pretty much the max amount of crit defense a champ can get (Lormath + Glory is pretty much it). But Guards have legacies for it. So while I'm sitting at something like 7%, roughly, he's up at 13% at least. Thats less crits and far less consecutive crits, which is what will kill you even in a good group.

Power will be a bigger issue when champ tanking and again, Guardians have a big advantage in this area as a Guardian can be pretty much self-sufficient in power in the Lt fight even without icpr thanks to their Catch a Breath skill (I think thats the one)

Not going to try and say much about Warden, don't know a lot other than they are better at getting and keeping agro than anyone, especially with lots of mobs. Champs are good at this too thanks to Raging Blades if you're not concerned about stuns in range. I would say this is one of the few spots a Guardian is slightly weaker when it comes to an initial pull and agro on 5+ mobs, but a good Guard can easily get it all with just a few more seconds.

But the biggest thing I wanted to make sure was said was that you shouldn't be trying to DPS tank the hardest content, things will go faster and easier if you just suck it up and go glory with a heavy shield. I'm going to get flak from 1337 champs now telling me that I and my kin must suck since we can't let me Fervour tank, but just use your own mind, reason and logic with the mindset of TANKING in order to come to the best conclusion. Can or can't do not = should or shouldn't.

Our survivability is still 3rd on the list of tanks thanks to our lower crit defense and the lack of self heals like the warden. But its not like we're far behind. There isn't anything you can't tank on a good champ except maybe the Lt, but even then I expect we'll see champs able to do that once raids' radiance and experience increase as a whole and with a little bit of ingenuity with the strat.
And if you're doing what I talked about above, threat should never be a problem for a champ tank unless you're running out of power or have another tank competing for it (or your RK just crit 6k twice in a row early on your mob....)

EDIT: To respond to WHY bring a champ? Well beyond the obvious explanation of availability, having a champ be the 2nd tank along with a second champ for dps you can clear the Gauntlet quickly, have plenty of heavies for Durchest and still have enough melee dps for the twin sisters upstairs. The champ can easily swap to Fervour and dps weapon when you're down to 1 trash mob on the other tank for greater dps. All with the same group makeup. Whereas stacking 2 guards + champ can be a slower guantlet and twins

Originally Posted by TurinThalion

Well, I'd like to offer a counter to a statement/idea that I saw several times in the above posts: Champions gain and hold agro through pure DPS

While that is true for everything but BG, you are misrepresenting champ tanking at its highest, most difficult level.
This is typical champ mindset speaking, but if you want to tank the hardest content with your champ you need to drop your typical champ mindset and start thinking like a tank.

In BG, you should not be using DPS to tank if you are the main or 2nd tank. There is little to no reason for this. Your job is not to dps, your job is to get and keep agro.
We have this wonderful stance called Glory which gives you +60% threat.
THAT is how you gain and hold agro in end-game content. Also through the use of Ferocious Strikes, Raging Blades and traited Wild Attack, all of which create extra threat beyond just their damage. You also have rising ire to use on a dps class or healer in your group.
But you don't do it with DPS. (Again, I'm talking about hardest content here, don't be bringin up SG please). Also note that martial bonus champ challenge generates some threat as well. Don't burn your challenge on initial pulls if you can avoid it, bow shot it and WA it real quick instead and save the challenge for emergencies. And trust me, a single quick champ challenge saved for the right moment can be the difference between a wipe and Lt HM kill.

You are making yourself a liability if you are trying to Fervour tank a Fire-sword in BG. You will die faster than even your best healers can heal you, unless all the healers are focusing on you, which leaves the other tank with no heals, so again, its counterproductive.

I off tank BG weekly on my champ and since that is the more important role for me as a champ these days, I've really focused on being the best I can in this area. When full traited and geared I have as much or more morale as our guards or warden.
I have capped melee defense, but the bigger deal is crit defense. This is where Guardians have a big advantage over Champs. I have pretty much the max amount of crit defense a champ can get (Lormath + Glory is pretty much it). But Guards have legacies for it. So while I'm sitting at something like 7%, roughly, he's up at 13% at least. Thats less crits and far less consecutive crits, which is what will kill you even in a good group.

Power will be a bigger issue when champ tanking and again, Guardians have a big advantage in this area as a Guardian can be pretty much self-sufficient in power in the Lt fight even without icpr thanks to their Catch a Breath skill (I think thats the one)

Not going to try and say much about Warden, don't know a lot other than they are better at getting and keeping agro than anyone, especially with lots of mobs. Champs are good at this too thanks to Raging Blades if you're not concerned about stuns in range. I would say this is one of the few spots a Guardian is slightly weaker when it comes to an initial pull and agro on 5+ mobs, but a good Guard can easily get it all with just a few more seconds.

But the biggest thing I wanted to make sure was said was that you shouldn't be trying to DPS tank the hardest content, things will go faster and easier if you just suck it up and go glory with a heavy shield. I'm going to get flak from 1337 champs now telling me that I and my kin must suck since we can't let me Fervour tank, but just use your own mind, reason and logic with the mindset of TANKING in order to come to the best conclusion. Can or can't do not = should or shouldn't.

Our survivability is still 3rd on the list of tanks thanks to our lower crit defense and the lack of self heals like the warden. But its not like we're far behind. There isn't anything you can't tank on a good champ except maybe the Lt, but even then I expect we'll see champs able to do that once raids' radiance and experience increase as a whole and with a little bit of ingenuity with the strat.
And if you're doing what I talked about above, threat should never be a problem for a champ tank unless you're running out of power or have another tank competing for it (or your RK just crit 6k twice in a row early on your mob....)

EDIT: To respond to WHY bring a champ? Well beyond the obvious explanation of availability, having a champ be the 2nd tank along with a second champ for dps you can clear the Gauntlet quickly, have plenty of heavies for Durchest and still have enough melee dps for the twin sisters upstairs. The champ can easily swap to Fervour and dps weapon when you're down to 1 trash mob on the other tank for greater dps. All with the same group makeup. Whereas stacking 2 guards + champ can be a slower guantlet and twins

Well put, but I'm afraid this will fall on 1337 pairs of deaf ears.

Originally Posted by TurinThalion

When full traited and geared I have as much or more morale as our guards or warden.

How much morale do you have buffed again?

Originally Posted by sunaris

touche......

but just so you know, very few warden's trait the fist(threat) line.

my question is why tank on a champ when you can shing shing?

Because as long as you can survive, the group is better off with 2 champs rather than a champ+warden/guardian for killing speed. I've tanked SG on my champ more times than I can count and I don't think I've ever wished to trade the DPS I bring for the survivability of a guard/ward.

Now for harder content, or less experienced groups that would be different.

Originally Posted by princekobi

Well put, but I'm afraid this will fall on 1337 pairs of deaf ears.

I can hear what he's saying at least, but maybe I'm not elite.

Good points, Gorrauk - when I've had to be the main or off-tank in BG, I give up most of my pretty red and white traits and trait Martial Champion, replace my off-hand with Loramath, and concentrate on staying alive and holding threat through FS, WA, and Rising Ire. If I'm tanking BG, I'm not a DPS class any more.

(So for the OP, Champs can make good tanks, but they're only third-best at that role. If you want to be primarily a tank, maybe Champion isn't for you. If you'd just like to do it sometimes, enjoy Champdom).

Oh, and back to Gorrauk - I call shenanigans on you having more buffed morale than your kin's Guardians or Wardens, unless they're just undergeared.

Originally Posted by kiltymcb

How much morale do you have buffed again?

Full buff (including temporary RK ones) I just hit 10,532 last night when I tanked Durchest. Having 175 radiance helps.
I didn't say more than all of them, but thats a couple hundred more than a couple guards, not sure about the warden he's still new to us and only tanked with him a couple times. Think he's around 10kish though. And our main and best tank was hitting 11k at the same time. He's not full rad gear yet, but close. But yes, I do have at least 10 more rad than them.

The key is in focusing on +morale stuff and letting your raid's buffs get your vitality up. I only run with 550ish vit when tanking since I get 50 from IDOME and +55 from food alone. If the mini is running +vit stance I could even drop to less. Sealed setting of morale is your friend. Have a tanking weapon with it.

Thanks for seeing some reason though and I hope the OP gets the most out of it to be the best champ tank he can be. Personally, its things like this that are why I love the champ. We're one of the most versatile classes and we can adapt to just about anything.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
EDIT: added a pic so you'll believe me and updated a couple numbers.

I have tanked the first two bosses on HM of BG using my sprinting weapon(common damage).

Originally Posted by Orlandu

I have tanked the first two bosses on HM of BG using my sprinting weapon(common damage).

Good point, tanking weapons don't really need to be all that special in legacies or have special damage type...

Originally Posted by cdhollan

How easily can they hold agro and how is their survivability?

Rising Ire

Originally Posted by TurinThalion

Full buff (including temporary RK ones) I just hit 10,532 last night when I tanked Durchest. Having 175 radiance helps.
I didn't say more than all of them, but thats a couple hundred more than a couple guards, not sure about the warden he's still new to us and only tanked with him a couple times. Think he's around 10kish though. And our main and best tank was hitting 11k at the same time. He's not full rad gear yet, but close. But yes, I do have at least 10 more rad than them.

The key is in focusing on +morale stuff and letting your raid's buffs get your vitality up. I only run with 550ish vit when tanking since I get 50 from IDOME and +55 from food alone. If the mini is running +vit stance I could even drop to less. Sealed setting of morale is your friend. Have a tanking weapon with it.

Thanks for seeing some reason though and I hope the OP gets the most out of it to be the best champ tank he can be. Personally, its things like this that are why I love the champ. We're one of the most versatile classes and we can adapt to just about anything.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
EDIT: added a pic so you'll believe me and updated a couple numbers.

Okay - I can see that. Wish your picture hadn't cut off the rest of the buffs, though - I'm wondering how many RK Mending Verse buffs are there, since you used the plural when you referenced them.

I'm also curious as to what I could get to now, but I'll probably have to bribe at least one of our RKs to temporarily trait the Mending Verse trait.

Originally Posted by TurinThalion

Well, I'd like to offer a counter to a statement/idea that I saw several times in the above posts: Champions gain and hold agro through pure DPS

While that is true for everything but BG, you are misrepresenting champ tanking at its highest, most difficult level.
This is typical champ mindset speaking, but if you want to tank the hardest content with your champ you need to drop your typical champ mindset and start thinking like a tank.

In BG, you should not be using DPS to tank if you are the main or 2nd tank. There is little to no reason for this. Your job is not to dps, your job is to get and keep agro.
We have this wonderful stance called Glory which gives you +60% threat.
THAT is how you gain and hold agro in end-game content. Also through the use of Ferocious Strikes, Raging Blades and traited Wild Attack, all of which create extra threat beyond just their damage. You also have rising ire to use on a dps class or healer in your group.
But you don't do it with DPS. (Again, I'm talking about hardest content here, don't be bringin up SG please). Also note that martial bonus champ challenge generates some threat as well. Don't burn your challenge on initial pulls if you can avoid it, bow shot it and WA it real quick instead and save the challenge for emergencies. And trust me, a single quick champ challenge saved for the right moment can be the difference between a wipe and Lt HM kill.

You are making yourself a liability if you are trying to Fervour tank a Fire-sword in BG. You will die faster than even your best healers can heal you, unless all the healers are focusing on you, which leaves the other tank with no heals, so again, its counterproductive.

I off tank BG weekly on my champ and since that is the more important role for me as a champ these days, I've really focused on being the best I can in this area. When full traited and geared I have as much or more morale as our guards or warden.
I have capped melee defense, but the bigger deal is crit defense. This is where Guardians have a big advantage over Champs. I have pretty much the max amount of crit defense a champ can get (Lormath + Glory is pretty much it). But Guards have legacies for it. So while I'm sitting at something like 7%, roughly, he's up at 13% at least. Thats less crits and far less consecutive crits, which is what will kill you even in a good group.

Power will be a bigger issue when champ tanking and again, Guardians have a big advantage in this area as a Guardian can be pretty much self-sufficient in power in the Lt fight even without icpr thanks to their Catch a Breath skill (I think thats the one)

Not going to try and say much about Warden, don't know a lot other than they are better at getting and keeping agro than anyone, especially with lots of mobs. Champs are good at this too thanks to Raging Blades if you're not concerned about stuns in range. I would say this is one of the few spots a Guardian is slightly weaker when it comes to an initial pull and agro on 5+ mobs, but a good Guard can easily get it all with just a few more seconds.

But the biggest thing I wanted to make sure was said was that you shouldn't be trying to DPS tank the hardest content, things will go faster and easier if you just suck it up and go glory with a heavy shield. I'm going to get flak from 1337 champs now telling me that I and my kin must suck since we can't let me Fervour tank, but just use your own mind, reason and logic with the mindset of TANKING in order to come to the best conclusion. Can or can't do not = should or shouldn't.

Our survivability is still 3rd on the list of tanks thanks to our lower crit defense and the lack of self heals like the warden. But its not like we're far behind. There isn't anything you can't tank on a good champ except maybe the Lt, but even then I expect we'll see champs able to do that once raids' radiance and experience increase as a whole and with a little bit of ingenuity with the strat.
And if you're doing what I talked about above, threat should never be a problem for a champ tank unless you're running out of power or have another tank competing for it (or your RK just crit 6k twice in a row early on your mob....)

EDIT: To respond to WHY bring a champ? Well beyond the obvious explanation of availability, having a champ be the 2nd tank along with a second champ for dps you can clear the Gauntlet quickly, have plenty of heavies for Durchest and still have enough melee dps for the twin sisters upstairs. The champ can easily swap to Fervour and dps weapon when you're down to 1 trash mob on the other tank for greater dps. All with the same group makeup. Whereas stacking 2 guards + champ can be a slower guantlet and twins

I say, leave the tanking to tanks, unless we die.
Also, we can hold aggro on 10 mobs without a problem

Originally Posted by mrgiles

I say, leave the tanking to tanks, unless we die.
Also, we can hold aggro on 10 mobs without a problem

It depends on the content. "Real tanks" are much better for difficult content. For easy stuff they just slow things down compared to a champ.