I cam late to playing a Captain, having leveled every class except the warden. Most of my problems stem from the different play-style a captain requires. But I've noticed a rather strange problem with aggro.
With my LM (main) I send in my pet and it gets aggro until I've thrown a few skills and done enough damage to draw the mob to me.
With my captain my pet runs up, smacks the mob (using the threat skill) and the mob turns and runs at me. This happens most of the time, regardless of the range and regardless of my doing anything at all. It happens more often if I toss a mark (not the damaging one, any mark).
So does aggro work differently for captains? Is my presence so awesome that everything will hate me more than my pet? I've pulled aggro from my wife's 60 guard on occasion, though it takes some effort in that case.
I cam late to playing a Captain, having leveled every class except the warden. Most of my problems stem from the different play-style a captain requires. But I've noticed a rather strange problem with aggro.
With my LM (main) I send in my pet and it gets aggro until I've thrown a few skills and done enough damage to draw the mob to me.
With my captain my pet runs up, smacks the mob (using the threat skill) and the mob turns and runs at me. This happens most of the time, regardless of the range and regardless of my doing anything at all. It happens more often if I toss a mark (not the damaging one, any mark).
So does aggro work differently for captains? Is my presence so awesome that everything will hate me more than my pet? I've pulled aggro from my wife's 60 guard on occasion, though it takes some effort in that case.
Hmm. I switched to standards long ago, but don't remember this behavior.
Do you still have a heal-over-time running on your pet (e.g. from Rallying Cry on previous monster's death or Words of Courage) when the battle starts? That will get you some healing aggro and might pull the monster to you. Noble Mark, Threatening Shout, or Battle Shout will do it too, but you say not using anyone of those? The other two marks should not get you aggro as far as I know.
Ditto. Generally the herald will hold the aggro until you do something to make you look more awesome. Just standing there, the mobs don't generally acknowledge your awesomeness.
Note: All characters are *not* created equal. Some do have bugs that are in such a basic part of their programming that it's better to re-roll the character. I had a hunter that did not get the hunter run buff when the skill was on. The support folks finally admitted that the character was just flawed and I rerolled. A friend of mine had something similar happen with a LRM.
If it is continuing, and you *really* are not doing anything to distract the mobs, then you might want to start bugging it earlier than later, to avoid a re-roll at higher level.
I cam late to playing a Captain, having leveled every class except the warden. Most of my problems stem from the different play-style a captain requires. But I've noticed a rather strange problem with aggro.
With my LM (main) I send in my pet and it gets aggro until I've thrown a few skills and done enough damage to draw the mob to me.
With my captain my pet runs up, smacks the mob (using the threat skill) and the mob turns and runs at me. This happens most of the time, regardless of the range and regardless of my doing anything at all. It happens more often if I toss a mark (not the damaging one, any mark).
So does aggro work differently for captains? Is my presence so awesome that everything will hate me more than my pet? I've pulled aggro from my wife's 60 guard on occasion, though it takes some effort in that case.
Are you using a halberd, I know halberds were a little borked back in MoM, and sometimes npcs aggroed by other players in my fellow would run towards me immediately, though I don't recall getting aggro after my fellow would start healing/dpsing.
With my captain my pet runs up, smacks the mob (using the threat skill) and the mob turns and runs at me.
Are you sure you did not have Rallying Cry, Words of Courage, or Inspire ticking? The melee pets do so little damage that a tiny bit of healing will pull aggro.
Muster Courage also increases hate, so if the pet got feared and you cleared it that can also pull aggro.
Telling Mark and Revealing Mark create no hate, as evidenced by the fact that you can place them on a target and it won't pull.
Remember guys, the captain has a pet, but is not dependant on the pet. Your herald is there to assist you, not to protect you.
If the pet can't tank, it is really pretty useless (except for the archer of course). That is IMHO its main benefit over the standard, keeping a mob or two off you while you deal with the others.
I cam late to playing a Captain, having leveled every class except the warden. Most of my problems stem from the different play-style a captain requires. But I've noticed a rather strange problem with aggro.
With my LM (main) I send in my pet and it gets aggro until I've thrown a few skills and done enough damage to draw the mob to me.
With my captain my pet runs up, smacks the mob (using the threat skill) and the mob turns and runs at me. This happens most of the time, regardless of the range and regardless of my doing anything at all. It happens more often if I toss a mark (not the damaging one, any mark).
So does aggro work differently for captains? Is my presence so awesome that everything will hate me more than my pet? I've pulled aggro from my wife's 60 guard on occasion, though it takes some effort in that case.
I bolded and putted in orange the good answer.
About the aggro off your wife's guardian, it happens if you are build for threat, I stopped to use Halberd because of that issue, it was too easy to pull aggro off people, i think its because the +% on threat affect all the skills, so even our healing get that little +...
But who the hell am i.. I don't play the game atm..
If it isn't about FlameThrower, Grenade and Rocket Launcher, you're playing the wrong classes, race and game..
Heralds are so pathetic that there's no way to keep aggro off yourself unless you just stand there. They're not even worth sending in to tank something unless you have all the Leader of Men (or whatever it's called) traits set or they'll die too fast. Then you lose your herald buffs. Just use a standard and wail away on them is what I say. Short answer: yes, you are too awesome.
Heralds are so pathetic that there's no way to keep aggro off yourself unless you just stand there. They're not even worth sending in to tank something unless you have all the Leader of Men (or whatever it's called) traits set or they'll die too fast. Then you lose your herald buffs. Just use a standard and wail away on them is what I say. Short answer: yes, you are too awesome.
I disagree entirely. I have, at 65, and everywhere inbetween, quite successfully used a herald as an off tank for a single target, many, many times. Put the threat skill on autofire and don't use Inspire or Pressing Attack too early on (ideally, you should hold off healing the pet until he's gotten a second Intimidating Tactics off). He'll soak up damage from that target for a good long time without losing aggro until you do something gives yourself some fairly serious threat (Rallying cry.) and he shouldn't need more healing than Inspire can deliver unless you're trying to offtank an Elite (not generally recommended.)
You -will- run into problems if you try to offtank multiple critters with him (Though you can fake this as long as you don't need to heal him by sending him in first and then plucking targets off of him, but as soon as you heal, all but the one he's actually geneating threat on will come for you.) and it's hard for him to offtank things that are red or higher to you because he just can't HIT them to generate any threat (He's two levels lower than you, rememeber.) but for holding off singles of up to a couple levels higher than you, go for it.
The situation described in the OP sounds like a textbook case of "ooops, Rallying Cry was still pulsing on the pet when I sent him in." to me.
Hmm. I switched to standards long ago, but don't remember this behavior.
Do you still have a heal-over-time running on your pet (e.g. from Rallying Cry on previous monster's death or Words of Courage) when the battle starts? That will get you some healing aggro and might pull the monster to you. Noble Mark, Threatening Shout, or Battle Shout will do it too, but you say not using anyone of those? The other two marks should not get you aggro as far as I know.
Maybe your character is wearing a "kick me" sign?
Ok that's probably the problem. I'm still having active buffs from a previous fight. I'll double check, but I suspect that's it. Or my burglar really did put a 'Kick Me' sign on my captain (she runs in Mischief mode.)
it's hard for him to offtank things that are red or higher to you because he just can't HIT them to generate any threat (He's two levels lower than you, rememeber.)
This is a big difference too! I always forget the pet is 2 levels lower. I can eat +agi food to hit that orange mob, but it's still red to Harrold the Herald! I also wonder if level affects threat?
This is a big difference too! I always forget the pet is 2 levels lower. I can eat +agi food to hit that orange mob, but it's still red to Harrold the Herald! I also wonder if level affects threat?
Everything is harder when you are hitting a higher level mobs (as it should be easier when you are killing lower level mobs). So i guess threat would be harder to build since you will likely get your skill more resisted and miss more
If it isn't about FlameThrower, Grenade and Rocket Launcher, you're playing the wrong classes, race and game..
I have not regularly used my herald since level 50, pre-moria. This technique may be out of date. However, at level 50 I could take on 4, sometimes 5 mid-40's mobs. Also, I believe that at level 50 my herald was better at mitigating damage than I was. I don't have any hard evidence for that, it's just my general feeling. I doubt that is the case any more.
Pet on passive always. I used Ctrl-1 to order and attack, Ctrl-2 to call the herald back. No auto assisting either. The Herald's taunt was set to auto fire. The problem with using the taunt and the stun at the same time was that the herald would run out of power and not have enough left for Lend Will. Using the Herald of Victory solved the power problem, but the Herald of Hope had the most moral for tanking.
Anyway, looking at a group of 3 to 4 mobs, I'd put Revealing mark on one mob and order the herald to attack it. It's very important to wait untill the herald get into aggro range of the entire group before attacking. As soon as the group was aggroed, I'd choose a different target and attack it. No AoE's and no heals for the herald until my target was dead. Then a Rallying Cry and usually the mob that the herald was attacking would stick to the herald. The extra 1 or 2 mobs would get on me at that point. I'd kill them, and then the herald's target last.
Captains and Lore Masters definitely use thier pets in different ways. The Herald is essentially a walking buff that adds a little dps and in most situations you dont need to worry about what it is doing as long as it is doing something usefull. Less than three mobs, just set him to attack what you attack and all should end well (*warning, results may not apply when fighting much higher level mobs, micromanage that situation). If you are carefull you can fight through most areas a mob or two at a time. 3 or more mobs, send him to attack one and you use a taunt 2 other mobs, any others will find you. I see you got the tip on having a HoT running, that is the likely culprit in your scenario.
Captains don't need to worry as much about the pet tanking as LM's. LM's are squishy, cappies are not, plus we can heal ourself and the herald can heal too. I forget what level you said you were, but man-heal is obviously a must. You will see why most of us use banners in most situations, the reasons are pretty evident after 5 mins of using one, but dont completely abandon your herald after that realization. Skirimshes are the ideal pasture to set your old companion to roam on. Having a herald and soldier in the fight is great, it really makes you feel like a small army. Plus you can make your own man-elf-dwarf combo, just like the books.
Money, so they say, is the root of all evil today,
but if you ask for a rise it's no surprise that they're giving none away
Switch to a banner, the extra damage and morale from a crit banner is a HUGE improvement to the captain class, and generally enough for you to take 3-4 mobs at once without the useless twit screwing everything up.
Switch to a banner, the extra damage and morale from a crit banner is a HUGE improvement to the captain class, and generally enough for you to take 3-4 mobs at once without the useless twit screwing everything up.
I agree with this (though some swear by archer for skirmishing, and I don't do that many skirmishes). However may be my incompetence managing my herald rather than his inherent problems. Certainly in a group setting my experience is that I dislike him because he can easily die in fierce battles to AOE/other problems and you can't re-cast him until the battle is over -- yes you can then drop a standard, but any traits you have to help him out are wasted. And he can have pathing issues, and can pull aggro badly enough to wipe your group (happened once to me east of Estelden in dense orc land). Soloing at least you probably will shield brother him and that will help him out. But I've never seen the worth of it, and don't want to use my class traits to make him tougher/better.
I agree with this (though some swear by archer for skirmishing, and I don't do that many skirmishes). However may be my incompetence managing my herald rather than his inherent problems. Certainly in a group setting my experience is that I dislike him because he can easily die in fierce battles to AOE/other problems and you can't re-cast him until the battle is over -- yes you can then drop a standard, but any traits you have to help him out are wasted. And he can have pathing issues, and can pull aggro badly enough to wipe your group (happened once to me east of Estelden in dense orc land). Soloing at least you probably will shield brother him and that will help him out. But I've never seen the worth of it, and don't want to use my class traits to make him tougher/better.
One thing I also forgot to mention, the only reliable (non-response) heal that captains get is from slotting the Strength from Within trait that does NOT allow for the use of heralds. While its not a great heal (500 morale over 20s at 65 every 30s), it can help substantially.
Herald heal (lend will?) is a reliable, non-response heal.
(I don't use it mind you...but it exists )
Yeah, And all they need to do is make it about 4x bigger and it will be as good as Strength from Within.
It's kindof stupid and lame, but we've been over this ground a million times now. Heralds need fixing (Too weak compared to banners at high levels), SfW should never have gone in (Is actually BETTER than the herald heal, which is about the only thing you would otherwise have lost by not using the herald), banners were badly designed (Should NEVER have been %s) but it's too late now.
Yeah, And all they need to do is make it about 4x bigger and it will be as good as Strength from Within.
But even then, Strength from Within pretty much always works as long as MC isn't on cooldown (or disabled by some effect) or you are out of power (managable). Lend will doesn't work if things have gotten ugly and your herald is dead or out of power. Which is often when you most need a heal. Strength from Within is particularly awesome if you have the Muster Courage legacy on your LI -- which I don't yet, still hoping once I switch to my lvl 65 emblem to get it.
Only real benefit I see to non-archer guys in group work is their buff is slightly better at cap (lvl 63 vs lvl 60 banners). Heralds would need a very big upgrade before I went back to them...
Last edited by DelgonTheWise; May 11 2010 at 08:21 AM.
Herald heal (lend will?) is a reliable, non-response heal.
(I don't use it mind you...but it exists )
It isn't reliable. It depends on the herald having power and morale to spare, and it requires the herald to attack a target. I've had it fail too many times for me to rely on it.
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
I agree with this (though some swear by archer for skirmishing, and I don't do that many skirmishes). However may be my incompetence managing my herald rather than his inherent problems. Certainly in a group setting my experience is that I dislike him because he can easily die in fierce battles to AOE/other problems and you can't re-cast him until the battle is over -- yes you can then drop a standard, but any traits you have to help him out are wasted. And he can have pathing issues, and can pull aggro badly enough to wipe your group (happened once to me east of Estelden in dense orc land). Soloing at least you probably will shield brother him and that will help him out. But I've never seen the worth of it, and don't want to use my class traits to make him tougher/better.
Traited with Precision and Loyalty, the archer does bring more DPS than a lone captain fully red traited using the Banner of War. I use my archer for solo work because it's faster. I put it away and use a banner of hope for almost all group content.
Traited with Precision and Loyalty, the archer does bring more DPS than a lone captain fully red traited using the Banner of War. I use my archer for solo work because it's faster. I put it away and use a banner of hope for almost all group content.
As I said, many swear by it. If/when I decide to grind skirmishes for scrolls, I'll certainly give it a go. I tend to do at least 1 group instance when I'm on, and don't like to re-trait all the time. Accordingly for random work I'm happy to stay with my HOH setup, standards, and self heal. Soloing I up my DPS slightly by using war banner for easy trash, otherwise mostly use hope...
As I said, many swear by it. If/when I decide to grind skirmishes for scrolls, I'll certainly give it a go. I tend to do at least 1 group instance when I'm on, and don't like to re-trait all the time. Accordingly for random work I'm happy to stay with my HOH setup, standards, and self heal. Soloing I up my DPS slightly by using war banner for easy trash, otherwise mostly use hope...
I'm not trying to tell you how to play, just offer a different perspective:
I am also HoH traited solo and I dislike major retrait costs.
For groups I slot Hope, War-cry buff, and Defiance.
For solo I trait Strong Voice (replace Hope) and Loyalty and Precise Ally (replace the two yellows).
Retraiting for solo is ~25s. Retraiting for groups is ~75s. Very reasonable, usually make more than that off the group work anyway.
The fully buffed Archer is pretty bad-arsed; far superior to untraited war banner, IMO.
I'm not trying to tell you how to play, just offer a different perspective:
No problem, I'm always happy to hear ideas and input. And even try some of them.
Originally Posted by Bigtuna00
I am also HoH traited solo and I dislike major retrait costs.
For groups I slot Hope, War-cry buff, and Defiance.
I do the same ones.
Originally Posted by Bigtuna00
For solo I trait Strong Voice (replace Hope) and Loyalty and Precise Ally (replace the two yellows).
Retraiting for solo is ~25s. Retraiting for groups is ~75s. Very reasonable, usually make more than that off the group work anyway.
The fully buffed Archer is pretty bad-arsed; far superior to untraited war banner, IMO.
I find the group build OK for soloing. It is a bit slow, but is survivable against 4 or 5 on level opponents which I rather like. I'm sure the archer adds to DPS nicely compared to the 10% extra from war banner, and again I'll be sure to try that when I go on a prolonged solo skirmish endeavor. Maybe because the captain is my first real character, I'm not impatient with the DPS situation -- I'd probably feel differently if I'd started with a stronger DPS class...
As I said, many swear by it. If/when I decide to grind skirmishes for scrolls, I'll certainly give it a go. I tend to do at least 1 group instance when I'm on, and don't like to re-trait all the time. Accordingly for random work I'm happy to stay with my HOH setup, standards, and self heal. Soloing I up my DPS slightly by using war banner for easy trash, otherwise mostly use hope...
Don't get me wrong. I don't swear by the archer. I just use it for the additional DPS when i'm feeling impatient. Using the archer is a trade off, and the additional DPS is nice, but not incredible.
Originally Posted by Bigtuna00
.....
Retraiting for solo is ~25s. Retraiting for groups is ~75s. Very reasonable, usually make more than that off the group work anyway.
....
I find that as long as I don't swap out any legendary traits that my retraiting costs are pretty reasonable. I don't mes with my legendaries unless I'm going full LTC for tanking. My standard group build is HoH plus Renewed Voice and Turn the Tide, for raids it's HoH plus Captain of War and Blood of Numenor. For soloing with my archer I do 3 LTC, 2 HOH, and Preceision and Loyalty, and I don't bother swapping out Hands of Healing for another legendary.
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
....
Maybe because the captain is my first real character, I'm not impatient with the DPS situation -- I'd probably feel differently if I'd started with a stronger DPS class...
I started out with a stronger DPS class. Then they nerfed my halberd.
I cam late to playing a Captain, having leveled every class except the warden. Most of my problems stem from the different play-style a captain requires. But I've noticed a rather strange problem with aggro.
With my LM (main) I send in my pet and it gets aggro until I've thrown a few skills and done enough damage to draw the mob to me.
With my captain my pet runs up, smacks the mob (using the threat skill) and the mob turns and runs at me. This happens most of the time, regardless of the range and regardless of my doing anything at all. It happens more often if I toss a mark (not the damaging one, any mark).
So does aggro work differently for captains? Is my presence so awesome that everything will hate me more than my pet? I've pulled aggro from my wife's 60 guard on occasion, though it takes some effort in that case.
Does this happen all the time or just against certain foes? Because there are some monsters who will trigger this effect, and it is VERY aggravating. It might be a bug, i'm not certain. It happens when the herald cannot damage it's target. It's almost as if the AI depends on doing damage to read that a target is there, and if it doesn't then the target simply ceases to exist in the mind of your herald. For example:
If you send your herald after a Daywalker Beserker in a skirmish he will engage, but as soon as the Daywalker uses his immunity shield the herald will simply stop attacking and run back toward you...bringing the monster with it so it can kill you. It's frustrating, and this may be what is happening to you. If it is, I suggest commanding your herald to stay after engaging, at least that way he doesn't bring the monster back to you.
Otherwise, all I can think is happening is you either have your pet on assist and it is running back toward you to fight your target or that your herald's taunt was resisted and you have some passive aggro-creating ability in effect you don't know about.
One thing I also forgot to mention, the only reliable (non-response) heal that captains get is from slotting the Strength from Within trait that does NOT allow for the use of heralds. While its not a great heal (500 morale over 20s at 65 every 30s), it can help substantially.
I've never found that heal to help substantially and have never been impressed with it, but to each their own.
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Originally Posted by Feadel
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