Thread: What Changes need to be made in the Moors?

Originally Posted by LegOverLass

On an other note, I wish the poster of the 23 nerfs could put a toon at the bottom of his post that shows he even plays in the moors. Level 50 with no rank?

Is my official LOTRO Signature not showing? Back at level 50 I was rank 9 lol. I've been self demoted since then

I was initially very impressed with all the responses. But it seems this thread has devolved into a flame with 2-5 minute intervals between posts.

I would appreciate it if you guys could go back and delete your bickering replies and offer up what constructive changes you think would improve play in the moors. If you are of the opinion that its perfect as it is state as much. Just follow it up with why it is perfect as it is.

One thing, get rid of damn CJ's

Here are some ideas I put up in another thread a while back, minus the controversial suggestion for instanced keep-takes:

- eliminate disarms from all NPCs
- make population-related buffs more dynamic, much stronger, and localized to a 50m radius
- eliminate any pve requirements for rank-gated freep gear
- make freep pvp gear not suck
- give freeps traits specific to the moors
- give creeps a legendary item system, shared storage, and mail
- give creeps deeds that actually mean something rather than just titles
- give creeps more trait, skill, and appearance customizability
- roll out a creatures-of-nature faction (morrevals, etc.)
- give freeps maps or give creeps mounts
- roll out some kind of mechanic to discourage zerg-style combat and encourage relatively even fights
- fix lag and skill lockup
- remove stab, wtab, oc, and ec from the map
- give freeps equivalent DP for equivalent creep quests (like OP flips)
- put CJs on the same DR timer as other CC
- eliminate the ability to drop-pull keeps
- implement wandering NPCs across the whole map

I also wouldn't be opposed to forced population control where it would be impossible to log into one side (or leave GV/Grams) if numbers were already, say, +10 over the other side.

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

Is my official LOTRO Signature not showing? Back at level 50 I was rank 9 lol. I've been self demoted since then

I was initially very impressed with all the responses. But it seems this thread has devolved into a flame with 2-5 minute intervals between posts.

I would appreciate it if you guys could go back and delete your bickering replies and offer up what constructive changes you think would improve play in the moors. If you are of the opinion that its perfect as it is state as much. Just follow it up with why it is perfect as it is.

Go back and add 23 nerfs to freepside on your post and I will

And people asked why I didn't make this post on the general forums vs our own general board

Originally Posted by RGilthanas

Maybe you should consider that creepside is blatantly op right now which is why those 'fixes' are needed.

Sorry, what rank are your freeps?

I think you're the one being hugely delusional Raae. In a large proportion of the fights we have had, the balance between freeps and creeps in a raid vs raid situation has been pretty good. Both sides blew everything they could, and in my opinion it was only the numbers that pushed it to one side or the other. And that was one both sides that I was on, but for starters it took a leader, and less of the lemmings attitude.

Don't go putting words in people's mouths, it isn't right and is a terrible way to argue. I'm pretty sure a lot of the rank nine uruks wouldn't mind making the uruk heal to three targets, I know a lot of reavers said they wouldn't mind taking a small damage hit etc. However that wasn't the question posed, and if you were to take a broader look at the moors, I think the real issue is the three verses twenty we have most days. Hell, freeps are so scared that we have another twenty wargs, six trolls and the nightmare from some silly horror movie below our feet that when we did actually have 17 verses 7 in their favour, they were scared! (don't blame them, just explaining).

The reason Sean, and a few others are getting angsty is because while you're saying that we aren't considering the Freep opinion, as soon as a creep opens their mouth to provide another perspective, we get shot down for wanting easymoders. If you think we enjoy only have three people on the map, or sitting down at CoT, or being forced into the delving, then you are sadly mistaken and don't know us very well.

On a final note. I hate to say this, because it goes against everything I believe in when considering the moors. If the only way to get things back to the way they used to be in the moors, is to nerf the creeps, take away all WL skills and make us use a spoon for a weapon, I will take it, sure as heck beats being bored to tears, and being constantly berated for choosing to play what we love.

The motivation is to discuss AS A COMMUNITY what changes might be effective to improve play in the Ettenmoors for everyone. I think we can all agree on the following:

1. The Ettenmoors are not as fun as they used to be. (you can drop your historical marker where you think it went wrong; mine drops at Moria release).
2. There is a significant population imbalance during most of the day on Elendilir.
3. Freeps don't much care to take keeps.
4. Play that devolves to GV or grams camping is dull and uninteresting.
5. Battle is not fun when one side has a gross advantage over the other and it becomes a mere death fest.
6. Balance in skill and population is critical.
7. There is really no reward to playing a freep in the moors other than personal satisfaction and enjoyment. (infact it is a terrible financial drain on your PvE activities.
8. We all just want to have fun.
9. we all want to win but want victory to be a challenge.

The question is how do we get there. How do we get there?

we can deride each other and have little fits about laser guns and lightsabers QQ OR we can get down to brass tacks about what each of us thinks might be an issue listen to them and discuss them and perhaps as a community make suggestions to the devs. Or we can sit back like infants and have it bottle fed to us whether we like it or not.


One final note to make:

Originally Posted by LegOverLass

Go back and add 23 nerfs to freepside on your post and I will

First, Seane you yourself said:

Originally Posted by LegOverLass

... the moors is currently at a low and as it stands Im not sure it could take warg packs as well.

http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=45 . You acknowledge there are problems, please feel free to discuss them.

Second, the list is a summary of suggestions made in the thread up to that point. They are not all my suggestions.

Second not all are nerfs to creeps. Some work on both and some on freeps alone.

Of the 23 the following are not isolated to creeps alone.

1. Generally balance the effective fighting population in the moors though incentives to play. Encourage an increase in Freep population with carefully crafted incentives.
2. Ettenmoors should be expanded upon or linked to another PvMP Area or changes made with Delving so that the area can be used more frequently for combat area.
3. Seriously nerf armor of RK's - they are far from the "glass cannon” they were intended.
4. Create a gated system in the keeps to prevent keep ninjas. Create a couple of impassable barricades protected by NPCs that disappear when the NPCs are cleared. Eliminate the flag taking portion of the keep takedown.
5. Generally diminish and limit the use of DoTs. Make combat more hit oriented; DPS is currently too focused on DoTs. Limit DOT and DoT stacks. Salves & potions should give a short duration immunity to the effect they cure. DOT skills that stack should have DR that limit their damage and duration. No DoT should be incurable.
6. Freeps and creeps should never be able to get out of range of Infamy or Renown payoff in case the target dies.
7. Heartseeker should no longer have a yellow crosshair.
8. Add collision detection between freeps and creeps.
9. Reduce use of AoE power drains by range or greater cool downs.
10. Creeps should get out of combat mount-like movement (including mount and dismount animation timers). Maps should be removed from the moors, except for a map to GV / Grams.

RK's seriously don't need an armour nerf. They're already light armour :/

Originally Posted by CandiceAurora

I think you're the one being hugely delusional Raae. In a large proportion of the fights we have had, the balance between freeps and creeps in a raid vs raid situation has been pretty good. Both sides blew everything they could, and in my opinion it was only the numbers that pushed it to one side or the other. And that was one both sides that I was on, but for starters it took a leader, and less of the lemmings attitude.

Don't go putting words in people's mouths, it isn't right and is a terrible way to argue. I'm pretty sure a lot of the rank nine uruks wouldn't mind making the uruk heal to three targets, I know a lot of reavers said they wouldn't mind taking a small damage hit etc. However that wasn't the question posed, and if you were to take a broader look at the moors, I think the real issue is the three verses twenty we have most days. Hell, freeps are so scared that we have another twenty wargs, six trolls and the nightmare from some silly horror movie below our feet that when we did actually have 17 verses 7 in their favour, they were scared! (don't blame them, just explaining).

The reason Sean, and a few others are getting angsty is because while you're saying that we aren't considering the Freep opinion, as soon as a creep opens their mouth to provide another perspective, we get shot down for wanting easymoders. If you think we enjoy only have three people on the map, or sitting down at CoT, or being forced into the delving, then you are sadly mistaken and don't know us very well.

On a final note. I hate to say this, because it goes against everything I believe in when considering the moors. If the only way to get things back to the way they used to be in the moors, is to nerf the creeps, take away all WL skills and make us use a spoon for a weapon, I will take it, sure as heck beats being bored to tears, and being constantly berated for choosing to play what we love.

I'm not being delusional at all, I'm telling how it is, hopefully without bias. I'm looking from the solo'ers perspective rather than the raid's perspective which is the point you're arguing, Hell. There haven't been many consistent raids for a long time, because of like you said, lack of leaders.

In a raid, freeps do shine more so than creeps in terms of renown vs infamy, I don't dispute that at all. However, when everyday, it seems that there are 2-3 wargs for every visible, and the popularity of creep vent, the days of soloing is out the window. What I'm also trying to say is that creeps generally do better in 1v1's and with freep's propensity for soloing it becomes glaringly obvious that creeps are enjoying this book more so than ever before. Before I get shot down again, I'm VERY happy that creeps are finally on parity with freeps, unfortunately, the pendulum has swung a little too far. I know the pendulum will go to the freep's favour again sooner or later, probably with the introduction of 1st ages. I'm pissed and embarassed not being able to leave the "safety" (lol) of NPC's without having 5 new "solo" wargs jumping me.

As for shooting down some creep's perspective, I try hard not to do that and keep an unbiased opinion, but when some of those creeps run their mouths without having experienced freepside for this book (and the last 2? 3?) then how can I possibly put any weight to their argument? Not to disrespect you, Hell, but have you been out in the moors on your minnie? Or any freep for that matter? I also don't just mean for one hour or 10. I mean try and get 100k renown, THEN you'd have a valid argument. Why? Because you have the experience. Put it this way: would you want Frelorn (I think) to only play exclusively freepside and fix the moors based on his perspective? I would be nervous to see what the outcome would be. I sincerely hope that he plays BOTH sides equally, or he should actually be fired from his job, or go wash Turbine's employee's washrooms.

Hell, I don't want Turbine to nerf creeps, they've almost just got it right this time with the exception of the CJ situation. What I want is the ability to give a good 1v1 (I don't give a sh*t if I die) as long as both sides walk away satisfied with a good, close fight without having 10 other "soloers" jumping in. I give sh*t to people who jump into an obvious 1v1 with me, with the exception of one or two people who are known for doing the same.

Originally Posted by RGilthanas

Not to disrespect you, Hell, but have you been out in the moors on your minnie? Or any freep for that matter?

Sure have, actually led two raids out there. Loved every minute of it, but to be fair most of it was with kinnies who take a similar play style as I do and we filled out the ranks with an open group a bit later. I even ranked up on her, my champ, burglar and LM. And I still pop out there on Eddie when the mood strikes me.

Originally Posted by CandiceAurora

Sure have, actually led two raids out there. Loved every minute of it, but to be fair most of it was with kinnies who take a similar play style as I do and we filled out the ranks with an open group a bit later. I even ranked up on her, my champ, burglar and LM. And I still pop out there on Eddie when the mood strikes me.

I'm glad to hear that, I wouldn't expect anything different from you.

However stick around a little longer, say, about 100k renown, rather than a raid or two here and there. I'd love to group with you again for old time's sake.

Originally Posted by RGilthanas

I'm glad to hear that, I wouldn't expect anything different from you.

However stick around a little longer, say, about 100k renown, rather than a raid or two here and there. I'd love to group with you again for old time's sake.

To be frank Raae, my experience on Freep side is generally not enjoyable, and its why I stick to myself or close friends. Like Cortes, I'm not overally fond of the community or the personalities over there, but I'll probably pop out more once finals are over, and only if I can do so with a few friends.

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

(A) There should be more incentive to join a raid particularly on the freep side. (B) This change play by creating a natural net for players first coming to the moors to observe and learn how the moors are played (or perhaps shouldn't be played). (C) This will improve game play helping new players attune to playing the moors and provide a framework for cooperation and communication (a real problem in freep play atm). It would improve the community aspect.

(A) Create a system whereby playing a creep creates a benefit for your Freep play in the moors and vise versa. (B) This would encourage freeps to play creeps and creeps to play their freeps in the moors. (C) This would create a greater respect for the opposing force (that you are aggressively killing) and strengthen the community as a whole. My experience is that its a lot more fun killing your friends than people you don't know or care about (who wants to come to my party now )

Originally Posted by CandiceAurora

... and the nightmare from some silly horror movie below our feet...
[/I]

Freddie Kruger occasionally comes along for the ride..

But creepside has such a winning community! LOL. Not liking a few people is no reason to ignore an entire part of the game, the ignore list exists for a reason.

Originally Posted by Thorandril

Not liking a few people is no reason to ignore an entire part of the game, the ignore list exists for a reason.

I think you underestimate how many people would be on the ignore list. It's also not as simple as ignoring a few people, it's a whole completely different playstyle and attitude on freepside.

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

PLEASE READ MY ENTIRE POST BEFORE YOU ANSWER. I've been playing in the Ettenmoors for quite a while now and I think play there is at its absolute lowest point ever. I am looking for constructive solutions not a series of juvenile flames. Some of us have played both sides and can offer a fair comparison of skills and some have only played one side or the other. Accept that there will be differing views and state only your own opinion from your experience.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO RESPOND TO THIS POST please (1) quote this original post. (2) do not respond directly to another person's response and (3) answer the following questions for each suggested change:

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

1. (A) I’m not a fan of nerfs, I prefer other classes get buffed unless it's a skill that is powerful enough to make people jump to that class (FotM). The only part of a skill I believe right now in this category is the knockdown of a conjunction .

(B) As CC was going through a major nerf they bought out this knockdown effect which I still don't understand the reasons behind, this needs some work done around it in the moors zone by turbine. Players endured annoying un-escapable grey bars for a long time and finally Pots and CC nerfs were implemented then all of a sudden we have unbreakable grey bars back. Seriously I couldn't believe it, what kind of reaction did Turbine expect.

(C) All CC should at the least be curable through potions to make for smoother game play and smarter strategies.


2. (A) Improved graphics on WtE and Tar to represent the actual area covered.

(B) I know it annoys me when I think I have run far enough around WtE only to see the slow de-buff appear so I imagine Creeps running around my Tar would feel the same frustration at the graphic area. I’m not sure why the graphic isn't a true representation of the area affected but I would like to know.

(C) I can check the timers on other slow de-buffs so why shouldn’t I be able to see the true area of these 2 slows, seeing the true area would help with certain decisions.


3. (A) Freep specific change: PvMP specific gear that requires little to no PvE.

(B) Incentive for Freeps? Possibly, but I think it would better utilised by Turbine as a way to "balance" classes during game changes by giving item + set bonuses PvMP related. Gear should only be usable in the moors so not to disturb the PvE side of the game.

(C) For Freeps at least the gear can bring them closer in line with their specifically built PvP counter parts. Well developed gear should provide each class with the PvP tools useful to be competitive in the moors even if it required set bonuses to change usual PvE skills into PvP skills, just as an example DF could still be usable in combat but changed to a sprint.


4. (A) DR on induction knockbacks in the PvMP zone

(B) Maybe I would be the only one for this but I use to like the longer drawn out fights over this current system which seems like fights are over before they have begun. I think the combat system change (auto attacks always firing even without animation) hurt induction classes badly especially healers, for example I hate seeing WL's (Hell and Smegs in particular) reduced to breathing on me as I can put my pet on them and basically take their healing out of a fight.

(C) If we could at least give our healers and other induction classes both sides a chance to get going then I believe we would see longer more enjoyable battles but maybe that's just me and everyone else prefers short sharp fights.

Originally Posted by Thorandril

But creepside has such a winning community! LOL. Not liking a few people is no reason to ignore an entire part of the game, the ignore list exists for a reason.

That is where I disagree. For starters I'm hardly ignoring an entire part of the game, I play over there a fair bit but I choose to keep a low profile given the crud that you get like "go back to easymoding" etc makes time less enjoyable.

It isn't just about people, like Sopot said, there is a completely different play style, attitude, and general community style. Whether that is good or bad, does not matter, because at the end of the day, since I paid my account, it is my right to enjoy my time in game. If I don't whats the point?

I have however, lately need to do some ignoring/muting creepside which I find a bit sad.

Originally Posted by Jerkan

I think you underestimate how many people would be on the ignore list. It's also not as simple as ignoring a few people, it's a whole completely different playstyle and attitude on freepside.

I agree, unfortunately. I find myself using my ignore button FAR more on freepside than creepside.

Originally Posted by Jerkan

I think you underestimate how many people would be on the ignore list. It's also not as simple as ignoring a few people, it's a whole completely different playstyle and attitude on freepside.

I'm not seeing it, enlighten me. The only difference I can tell is less freeps with targetting macro's.

This is a joke thread, right? April fools?

Er...

(A) Remove maps and mounts from the Moors.

(B) As everybody knows, fast travelling is what is causing the ZERRRRGGGG!

(C) This would improve solo/small group play because:
-it would take more time for the ZEEEERRRGG! to arrive
-lazy peeps wont get off their arses and go where the enemy group is
-no fast travelling means you have more time to regen and get ready for the next wave of enemies unless you are fighting nearby a rez circle.


Ehh, ./dream off. That'll never happen. Only things that come to mind is lack of Freep incentive and creeps DPS. Actually nevermind, Freeps have been asking for some decent PvP gear since Moria. Guess I'm still dreaming. I know the Nerfbat will eventually hit the creepies where it hurts, and the cycle will start all over again. Better get my reaver ready!