Thread: What Changes need to be made in the Moors?

PLEASE READ MY ENTIRE POST BEFORE YOU ANSWER. I've been playing in the Ettenmoors for quite a while now and I think play there is at its absolute lowest point ever. I am looking for constructive solutions not a series of juvenile flames. Some of us have played both sides and can offer a fair comparison of skills and some have only played one side or the other. Accept that there will be differing views and state only your own opinion from your experience.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO RESPOND TO THIS POST please (1) quote this original post. (2) do not respond directly to another person's response and (3) answer the following questions for each suggested change:

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

First of all, I'd disagree that PvMP is at an all time low. I think you'll see why with my answers...

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

A) The changes I would make are to give freeps more reason to go to the moors. Maybe give freeps the ability to unlock higher virtue levels in the moors, a better armor set that's plausible to attain in a similar amount of time as the DG purple stuff. The only other change I would make is make the spider poop visual as big as the skill actually is. The radius is far wider than what is actually shown, why is it that way and how hard is it to just make it look like it should?

B) The first change I suggested would help bring more freeps out throughout the day and thus the population would be even more. The second change involving spider poop/slow/web or w/e it's actually called is because sticky tar from an LM appears in the same size as the area it affects, why is spider poo different? It wouldn't be something very hard to change.

C) This will improve gameplay in the moors by allowing more people to get out and have fun and not run a mile around sticky poo but still somehow manage to get it on them.

(P.S. Creeps should get a mailbox, but put it in Grothum.)

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

IF YOU ARE GOING TO RESPOND TO THIS POST please (1) quote this original post. (2) do not respond directly to another person's response and (3) answer the following questions for each suggested change:

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

A) Get rid of CJ's, but at the VERY least, get rid of spammable CJ's and/or put them on the SAME DR as all CC. I mean ALL CC.

B) Makes for more longer, funner fights without being stun locked into oblivion without any chance of a fight.

C) Read B.


I would also echo Kanotaur's comment ~ Give freeps incentive for ranks.

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

PLEASE READ MY ENTIRE POST BEFORE YOU ANSWER. I've been playing in the Ettenmoors for quite a while now and I think play there is at its absolute lowest point ever. I am looking for constructive solutions not a series of juvenile flames. Some of us have played both sides and can offer a fair comparison of skills and some have only played one side or the other. Accept that there will be differing views and state only your own opinion from your experience.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO RESPOND TO THIS POST please (1) quote this original post. (2) do not respond directly to another person's response and (3) answer the following questions for each suggested change:

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

Significantly increase cool down for War Leader skill "On your feet" and limit it to players in the war leader's fellowship Group.

Why? Four War Leaders on rotation can rez 5 creeps within range slightly less than every 2 minutes. This change should be made because it is over powered and leads to an ability to attrit freeps by avoiding the hazards that all freeps must endure to get back into combat. By bypassing the need for rez points creeps do not suffer the travel time and risks associated with having to make their way from a camped rez point or from a map point or even having to run the gauntlet of opposing NPCs in a keep.

This will change game play by decreasing the ability of Creeps to use attrition by numbers (particularly in taking keeps) even though they may be suffering staggering losses initially. Currently they can simply rez them 5 at a time and with a rotation of four WLs they can do this every 2 minutes. With the change creeps would be limited in their use and this would force more creeps out of combat by making them hoof it back to the battle as freeps currently need to do.

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

(a) return troll/ranger rolling with inf/renown for their death and let them get inf/renown for killing the opposing players and are also able to join fellowships/groups
(b) because they even up the playing filed and are incredibly fun to play just so you new people who have never played it know.
(c) people will get more renown/inf for ranger/troll kills and so will be happy with them being near raids. They also will provide some benefit for the player who is playing the troll/rangers and will have a ton of fun.


(notes to players) most of the newer players have never seen or played a troll/ranger. Here is a brief description: they are leet master session play chars that where unfortunately removed. They where tons of fun and could solo a leet master npc. They where mostly used for keep taking and sometimes helped bash freeps. They where epic fun and probably the funnest part of the game.

Originally Posted by Lendas

(a) return troll/ranger rolling with inf/renown for their death and let them get inf/renown for killing the opposing players and are also able to join fellowships/groups
(b) because they even up the playing filed and are incredibly fun to play just so you new people who have never played it know.
(c) people will get more renown/inf for ranger/troll kills and so will be happy with them being near raids. They also will provide some benefit for the player who is playing the troll/rangers and will have a ton of fun.


(notes to players) most of the newer players have never seen or played a troll/ranger. Here is a brief description: they are leet master session play chars that where unfortunately removed. They where tons of fun and could solo a leet master npc. They where mostly used for keep taking and sometimes helped bash freeps. They where epic fun and probably the funnest part of the game.

You can still get the troll quest but you have to meet certain conditions such as having the outnumbered buff and certain keeps must be under freep control. It costs 5000 destiny points to do the quest. I picked up the quest as recently as 3weeks ago creepside.

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

A) In addition to the changes listed above the Ettenmoors should be expanded upon or linked to another PvMP Area. Secondly Free peoples should be able to get some skills for all their efforts. A scaled down version of the DAoC Realm Rank skills would be very nice.

B) Making the moors larger would allow small groups and solo players the chance to avoid the massive zerg ball should they choose to do so. Allowing freeps a very small number of skills for achieving certain realm ranks ( say rank 5,10,15) would provide additional incentive for them to come to the moors (If the skill is worth while anyway).

C) It stinks to have a good small fight going and then have the zergball roll on top of you. That spoils the fun. Freeps need more incentives to come to the moors. Right now I only come when bored or a kinmate asks me to help him out.

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

A: One change, but a big one: implement a hard cap. Neither side can exceed the total number of the other by more than 10. To bad if you have to wait in a queue because there are 37 creeps trying to get renown off the 27 freeps. If 5 more freeps log into the moors, five more creeps can now have at it.

B: This change should be made because the allowance of transfers has totally screwed the original population counts of any given server. If you want to play on a heavy pop server, deal with the queue. It's free to roll a creep/freep elsewhere or transfer. That's probably what you did to get to E in the first place anyway.

C: This would improve gameplay, on E especially, because imo, the only prob that exists is balance of numbers.

Individually no creep class is OP. Freeps that are well geared put up the same caliber fight. Yes it is a infinite rock/paper/scissors between classes as to who can beat what. Wargs are nasty sure, but they can be dealt with. But not when there are more wargs alone than there are freeps in the entire group.

Facing/range issues aren't class imbalances, it an imbalance of illogical game design that is further amplified by class mechanics that is exploited by the player, not the class. Some classes are designed to take better, if not at times unfair, advantage of this.

The discrepancy imo is simply from not being outnumbered, but being totally overwhelmed by 2 to 1 odds for either side. The weight of rank for creeps vs gear for freeps is a non issue. Get rank/gear first, then complain. If you are a greenie, you have next to no chance at beating someone geared similar to me. If you are wearing lvl 58 armor in a lvl 65 cap era, seriously *** are you thinking? It's acceptable if you come out here to have fun, but if you start ranting creeps are OP while you strut around in inadequate gear you have nothing to stand on.

Example: Rk with 4500 life, Zergnaut/Swash are more than likely going to devour you before charge is expired. You aren't going to beat KG, Worgnakh is going to annoy you at the least and I doubt you'll hit big numbers against Hellnakh, Bubba or Vyxe. Carca is going to drain your power and dot you up, burrow and laugh. Yicky will do the same. There are numerous other ranked AND skilled creeps that will work you over till you are boiling mad and think creeps are just OP. They aren't; they just outnumber us by immeasurable odds, most of the time.

P.s. Any talk of removing maps/mounts/cjs from the moors is totally a brilliant idea. I think the same, but didn't want to kick a dead horse.

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

A)
1) Give freeps maps and remove mounts. on the same note, make there only be a poor and good map (20 min and 5 min) cool down.
2) Put gates on the Keeps (prevent drop pulls) or chain all npcs to the Tryant/CG so when he is 1/2 health - all npcs run to the tyrant/cg to save him.
3) Give creeps the ability to get some kind of legacy to buff corruptions (obviously balance would have to be looked at.
4) Seriously nerf armor of RK's - they are far from a "glass cannon" expecially with captain buffs on them.
5) Remove CJ's or put them on escalated DR (both sides).
6) A new map
7) Give Freeps some incentive for ranking/going to the moors (crafting materials, drops, armor that is **** for PvE but great for PvP.

B)
1) It would make playing all over the map much more effective - current situation means Stab/EC/GV hill fights cause it takes to long to ride back
2) Would make the keep takes much more fun and encourage more battles inside
3) Freeps have them and can seriously put the hurt on - balance out for creeps or eliminate LI's in the moors.
4) Stupid class (IMO - I had one and deleted) - They can move, dps, heal, slow, and are ridiculously hard to kill. In my opinion champs are easier to kill then them.)
5) multiple CJs from burgs, wargs, spiders and guardians pretty much lock down a player and there is no recovery
6) For something different and would definately bring people back to the m oors
7) Creeps get new skills so incentive for killing and ranking. There's nothing to rank or play for freeps.

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

Limit DOT stacks. Salves should give a short duration immunity to the effect they cure. DOT skills that stack should have DR that limit their damage and duration.

The target of a CJ should get full immunity to all damage during the duration of the CJ, and should only get the damage given by the CJ. CJ immunity afterwards prevents CJ and stun.

Creeps should get either a mount, or a class-specific out of combat run speed buff so they can move as fast as mounted characters. Maps should be removed from the moors, except for a map to GV / Grams.

All NPCs in an area should attack opposing forces and not stop attacking unless the opposing force retreats out of their area, or they are dead. All soldier NPCs target off the closest lieutenant NPC, and all lieutenant NPCs target off the captain NPCs, and the captain NPCs target off the CG / Tyrant. When you are attacking the CG/Tyrant, you should have every single NPC in that area trying to kill whoever the CG is trying to kill.

Allow resources to be collected for quests to build doors for all keeps and camps. Doors are substantial, and are not trivial - they should require sustained concentrated *melee* attacks by a full raid to destroy. Quest turnins for materials should be available as soon as the door is less than 100% health, to rebuild and bolster a door under attack. Doors should also require a massive effort to create. Note: Entering a door 'opens' the door, which can allow enemy forces a window of opportunity to enter. Doors should open when clicked by the side that created them, and then clicked again to close. Enemy forces caught in the door when it closes should die, instantly.

Outposts should have windows ranged classes can use to rain death on the enemy approaching the outpost.

Renown and Infamy should be scaled based on the numbers of freeps and creeps within a 50m radius. By scaled, I mean up to, and including negative amounts. Groups that succeed against a larger group should get a bonus to their infamy and renown, and groups that succeed against a smaller group should get less infamy and renown. Groups that dominate a tiny opposing force, should actually get infamy or renown deducted from their total. The larger a group is, the more renown or infamy they should get from a kill, if all things are equal and they're fighting an equivalent number of enemy.

Desperate flight needs to be returned to the moors.

Freeps and creeps should never be able to get out of range of Infamy / Renown payoff in case the target dies.

Heartseeker should no longer have a yellow crosshair.

Warg flags should no longer be visible to freeps.

Web the earth needs to have a longer cooldown, and less of an affected area.

The rank 9 horse should have 400 morale, and move 10% faster than other horses. Creeps should also get a rank-equivalent mount or run speed increase.

Freeps and Creeps should have more incentive to play. Rewards for both sides are not very good, clearly Freeps need far better available gear, rewards, rank-gated potions and even skills they earn from their effort in the Moors. Creeps need mail, and scuzzy housing in the warrens and tunnels of Mt. Grams, evil and blackened by the soot of flaming torches.

High ranked Freeps who have gained new abilities, items, and skills by their valiant efforts in the 'moors should be able to use those skills everywhere. This is Middle Earth, not PVELand and PvMPland, and there should be tangible rewards for devoting time and effort to the game, whether it is PVE, or PvMP. All skills usable in PVE should be usable in PvMP. All skills gained through effort in PvMP should be usable in PVE. Balance the game to support this, and not the players.

Open the delving. Use the existing outposts to affect the number and quality of Freep/Creep/DoF NPCs in the delving. Allowing the delving to be a viable open PvMP area should be encouraged, as it effectively adds playable area to the map, without needing to add playable area to the map.

All wounds, slows, effects, debuffs etc... should be curable, subject to diminishing returns, and should not be stackable to the moon.

Add collision detection between freeps and creeps.

Remove critical protection corruptions. Period.

Our 'Front-loaded' damage in most cases relies on crit's whereas Creep DoT is easy to apply and forget.

Conceptual difference between Potential damage VS. Applied damage, DoT's being applied.

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

A)
1) Make DPS more hit oriented; DPS is currently too focused on DoTs.
2) Take away all maps (except grams and GV) and mounts and *stealth* movement speed bonuses.
3) No one CC skill should have a CD less than 30 seconds (it's different if you have a skill that resets them..if so this skill too has to be on a very long cooldown).
4) Less npcs
5) More incentives for freeps to come to the moors.


B)
1)Most DoTs do too much damage especially for those that are ranged. If you really want to DPS someone, you should invest in hits and not take away about 1.5k to 2k morale simply from 1 DoT. More on this in answer to question C.

2) Maps are supposed to be the creep equivalent of freep mounts or a balance. However Maps give more advantages to creeps. Mounts are fast..but not that fast..wargs and reavers can outrun mounts with their sprint skills. Concerning stealth speed; "it's not enough that i can't see you but you get to be faster than a visible in stealth or comparable in speed? c'mon lol"

3) No one enjoys being stunned, knockdown or CJed multiple times in one fight by 1 person spamming 1 skill on a short cooldown.

4)NPCs means more places for both sides to "hug" or hang around. This creates a standoff until one bored/brave person makes a push to set the ball rolling.

5) There is more of an incentive to play creepside than freepside. Hence there is a greater chance of freeps being outnumbered most of the time. Or freeps not having the classes needed.

C)
1)You won't get any major dps from DoTs, so you will have to be more aggressive than just spamming a high damage DoT skill with your left pinky while holding a glass of rum in your right hand The DoT victim still gets major damage from DOTs even when he is out of line of sight. It's true that some DoTs are pottable but the CD on pots isn't fast enough to counter the cooldown on certain high damage dots. Also pots remove only 1 DOT out of the possible 7 you have on you.

2) Maps give creeps the convenience of mass mapping in on a group of freeps that have been called out. Mounts will never get you from one end of the map to another that fast. Also a raid of creeps can vanish into thin air with maps; freeps cannot do this. Mounts are also advantageous when the creep has his/her sprint on cooldown. Without movement speed bonuses in stealth, a stealthed class that wants to stay in stealth 99% of the time will do so at the expense of losing kills. Other more difficult stealth tactics will be needed rather than a bunch of stealthed burgs or wargs safely staying in stealth and ganging up on 1 freep or creep knowing that they will catch up to him easily from stealth.

3) If a fight involves you getting stunned and CJed etc. even half the time then you might as well be partially afk in this onesided fight.

4) It's probably just me, but i feel more than half of the time spent in the moors is from freeps and creeps standing near thier npcs just waiting for someone to make a move. less npcs means less places to "hug" and less standoffs because no where is safe really. This also means more action, more killing, more dying, more fun.

5) Rank 1 freep = rank 15 freep more or less. No incentive from ranking or to pvp for that matter.

LOL sry for this long post but it does really take a lot to fix the moors. There are still things i haven't touched on

review and revision of ethics and standards in regards to turbine devs/employees
understanding what a "conflict of interest" means

servers from the 90's to current date would be a good idea. 1980 servers arent capable of supporting this game as we can all see daily

apoligizing to customers about lying about "new improved response skills" and admitting to worse skill lock up and fixing it or addressing the issue

get rid of uncurable stackable bs on both sides

instead of bieng told by a gm someone is exploiting you the person exploiting should be banned and announce about doing the exploit in the first place youll be banned for doing it

taking baby steps when introducing something into the game

give the freeps something besides bragging rights

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

PLEASE READ MY ENTIRE POST BEFORE YOU ANSWER. I've been playing in the Ettenmoors for quite a while now and I think play there is at its absolute lowest point ever. I am looking for constructive solutions not a series of juvenile flames. Some of us have played both sides and can offer a fair comparison of skills and some have only played one side or the other. Accept that there will be differing views and state only your own opinion from your experience.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO RESPOND TO THIS POST please (1) quote this original post. (2) do not respond directly to another person's response and (3) answer the following questions for each suggested change:

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

1. Significantly increase cool down time on War Leader's Skill "Field Promotion" aka War Leader Bubble.

The current cool down of 2 minutes is too short and thus over powered. Just a few War Leaders on rotation can keep someone bubbled at nearly all times.

It would change the way NPC are pulled and require creeps to putt more meat on the line.

2. BPE (&M). Remove Block from all creeps excepting War Leaders. Then diminish Perry, Evade and mitigations on all creeps slightly.

Block should apply to creeps the same as it applies to freeps. Hunters had their block removed because it was kinda hard to say what the hell they were blocking with. Champs and Guards have to decide whether to equip for blocking or not and suffer a significant decrease in Block. Whereas creeps block no matter the class. Creep Perry, Evade & Mitigation is too high across the board.

This should balance play somewhat if it is done with care.

3. Diminish the effectiveness of all DOTs freep and creep.

It makes lame game play to have DoTs stacked on you all the time.

Originally Posted by elloco1

You can still get the troll quest but you have to meet certain conditions such as having the outnumbered buff and certain keeps must be under freep control. It costs 5000 destiny points to do the quest. I picked up the quest as recently as 3weeks ago creepside.

What about freep? Gimme all exact conditions and I'll be on my toes for them.

IMO, part of the problem is the players themselves in the Ettenmoors. Going to take a community effort for people to want to change. But I can't really afford more than two accounts at the moment, so what I say will likely be ignored since I hold no stake for how people play.

I want to thank everyone for their responses and I encourage you to continue responding. I am particularly impressed with the thoughtfulness and civility of your responses.

So far, the following items seem to the the condensed list of changes people would like to see in the moors. In no particular order they are:

1. Generally balance the effective fighting population in the moors though incentives to play. Encourage an increase in Freep population with carefully crafted incentives.
2. Make web the earth effective rage the same as its visual appearance.
3. Make Spider skill web the earth exactly like Lore Master’s tar. Alternatively, give diminishing returns on effects when not standing directly in the web. (Hunter's Quick Shot + Strength Stance was DR'd)
4. Fix the issue with chain CJs or eliminate all CJs in the Ettenmoors.
5. Significantly increase cool down for War Leader skill "On your feet" and limit it to players in the war leader's actual fellowship Group (not even raid wide) .
6. Ettenmoors should be expanded upon or linked to another PvMP Area or changes made with Delving so that the area can be used more frequently for combat area.
7. Seriously nerf armor of RK's - they are far from the "glass cannon” they were intended.
8. Create a gated system in the keeps to prevent keep ninjas. Create a couple of impassable barricades protected by NPCs that disappear when the NPCs are cleared. Eliminate the flag taking portion of the keep takedown.
9. Generally diminish and limit the use of DoTs. Make combat more hit oriented; DPS is currently too focused on DoTs. Limit DOT and DoT stacks. Salves & potions should give a short duration immunity to the effect they cure. DOT skills that stack should have DR that limit their damage and duration. No DoT should be incurable.
10. Creeps should get out of combat mount-like movement (including mount and dismount animation timers). Maps should be removed from the moors, except for a map to GV / Grams.
11. Desperate flight needs to be returned to the moors. Its removal stands a monument to the developer’s sympathetic ear to creeps and indifference to Freep concerns.
12. Freeps and creeps should never be able to get out of range of Infamy or Renown payoff in case the target dies.
13. Heartseeker should no longer have a yellow crosshair.
14. Inescapable traps should stop Reaver's charge.
15. Warg flags should no longer be visible to freeps.
16. Web the earth needs to have a longer cool down, and less of an affected area.
17. Add collision detection between freeps and creeps.
18. Remove critical protection corruptions. 'Front-loaded' damage in most cases relies on crit's whereas Creep DoT is easy to apply and forget. Conceptual difference between Potential damage VS. Applied damage, DoT's being applied crits aren’t landing and often times simply miss altogether.
19. Significantly increase the cool down time on War Leader's Skill "Field Promotion" aka War Leader Bubble.
20. BPE (&M). Remove Block from all creeps excepting War Leaders. Then diminish Perry, Evade and mitigations on all creeps slightly.
21. Do not allow creep transfers. If they want a creep on a server then make them start from scratch. It hurts the servers they flood and the ones they flee.
22. Reduce use of AoE power drains by range or greater cool downs.
23. Remove ever present dread effects that seem to always surround TA.

I have 3 changes that if implemented would give a true picture of balance and IMO wouldnt "nerf" anyone.

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
1) Remove Maps and Mounts from the moors.
2) Make all player and MP's immune to CJ's (in the moors) CJ's to proc a regular DR effected Stun
3) Freep Rank rewards (moors only use)

(B) Why should these changes be made?
1) Gives both sides equal access to any give fight at any given place on the map
2) CJ's give a stun without dr
3) Freeps need get a reward for rank

(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?
1) Fights would take place with the 2 groups that meet on the field and the late commers would have less effect on the outcome of a battle
2) Closer to balanced
3) More freeps would come to the moors

What comes down to for me, is a firm believe that a nerf of any kind is the reason we're in this position, thus nerfing is not the answer.

Nerfing WL bubbles, nerfing RK DPS, and god knows what everyone has come up with is not the answer. What you're creating is a pendulum effect, which means I'll be hearing the creep QQ threads again (god help me!). I'm happy to provide equivalents to some extent, but nerfnerfnerfnerf is a terrible solution, especially given the crux of the issues is numbers. We need a solution to the numbers issue.

Overall, I have a firm belief that the community in the moors, or in the game for that matter can break or make a gaming experience.

The questions we should really be asking is: -
How do we encourage freeps to come to the moors?
How do we maintain and provide incentives for those who do come out?
What do we define as balance and how do we wish for it to be maintained? (ie. 1v1, small group vs small group, raid verses raid - can't have everything)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quite simply put, to encourage new Freeps into the Ettenmoors, we need incentives and rewards. Quite frankly, the PvMP gear is absolutely terrible, and the horse still has to be bought by the player once they reach rank nine (when really it should be auto-bestowed). While I know gear is a bit of an issue that people fight over, and I know that the gear should never be better than current, top raiding gear, I would like to see a side step. By this I mean, the gear for the Ettenmoors should really be the equivalent to say BG gear, however has more PvMP benefits. So, the PvMP gear may provide far more mitigations and resistance bonuses, instead of minus to power costs. It may provide minus to root duration instead of in-combat power regeneration, etc.

Another idea that was brought up that I quite liked, though I don’t know how effective it would be to implement could be PvMP only rank bonuses to morale, power, mitigations, etc. I think to some extents if Freeps could gain advantages, even if they’re not particularly huge, it would keep a lot of people around a lot longer. Hell, lets give freeps corruptions, so they get plus to health/power/armour/resistances/etc (like the creep ones!). If nothing else, more tangible rewards for ranks is the essence of what people need – horses, housing items (shield of the Rangers of Esteldin?), proper cloaks, etc. However, I do believe that some of these should be auto-bestowed. For example there could be a deed to achieve the first five ranks, and that gives a title and a housing item, then for the next five ranks, Freeps could receive a horse with more morale (maybe the rank nine horse to gain more morale/speed with every rank, even if it is small?), and a title. Etc. .

Again, I think arenas would be a good idea. Kinship points could be fun to earn, and in the end a lot of people enjoy pre-set matches, such as one verses ones, duos, trios, etc. It gives an alternative to when one side is getting smashed to pieces, and allows for new people to see a small group fight and gain an understanding of how creep classes work together, and what their skills are.

Sorry for moving the topic off, I realize this probably wasn't what you intended, so I'll refrain from pointing out why some of the ideas are fundamentally flawed.
Sorry if this post is mangled, I'm feeling about that!

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

I want to thank everyone for their responses and I encourage you to continue responding. I am particularly impressed with the thoughtfulness and civility of your responses.

So far, the following items seem to the the condensed list of changes people would like to see in the moors. In no particular order they are:

1. Generally balance the effective fighting population in the moors though incentives to play. Encourage an increase in Freep population with carefully crafted incentives.
2. Make web the earth effective rage the same as its visual appearance.
3. Make Spider skill web the earth exactly like Lore Master’s tar. Alternatively, give diminishing returns on effects when not standing directly in the web. (Hunter's Quick Shot + Strength Stance was DR'd)
4. Fix the issue with chain CJs or eliminate all CJs in the Ettenmoors.
5. Significantly increase cool down for War Leader skill "On your feet" and limit it to players in the war leader's actual fellowship Group (not even raid wide) .
6. Ettenmoors should be expanded upon or linked to another PvMP Area or changes made with Delving so that the area can be used more frequently for combat area.
7. Seriously nerf armor of RK's - they are far from the "glass cannon” they were intended.
8. Create a gated system in the keeps to prevent keep ninjas. Create a couple of impassable barricades protected by NPCs that disappear when the NPCs are cleared. Eliminate the flag taking portion of the keep takedown.
9. Generally diminish and limit the use of DoTs. Make combat more hit oriented; DPS is currently too focused on DoTs. Limit DOT and DoT stacks. Salves & potions should give a short duration immunity to the effect they cure. DOT skills that stack should have DR that limit their damage and duration. No DoT should be incurable.
10. Creeps should get out of combat mount-like movement (including mount and dismount animation timers). Maps should be removed from the moors, except for a map to GV / Grams.
11. Desperate flight needs to be returned to the moors. Its removal stands a monument to the developer’s sympathetic ear to creeps and indifference to Freep concerns.
12. Freeps and creeps should never be able to get out of range of Infamy or Renown payoff in case the target dies.
13. Heartseeker should no longer have a yellow crosshair.
14. Inescapable traps should stop Reaver's charge.
15. Warg flags should no longer be visible to freeps.
16. Web the earth needs to have a longer cool down, and less of an affected area.
17. Add collision detection between freeps and creeps.
18. Remove critical protection corruptions. 'Front-loaded' damage in most cases relies on crit's whereas Creep DoT is easy to apply and forget. Conceptual difference between Potential damage VS. Applied damage, DoT's being applied crits aren’t landing and often times simply miss altogether.
19. Significantly increase the cool down time on War Leader's Skill "Field Promotion" aka War Leader Bubble.
20. BPE (&M). Remove Block from all creeps excepting War Leaders. Then diminish Perry, Evade and mitigations on all creeps slightly.
21. Do not allow creep transfers. If they want a creep on a server then make them start from scratch. It hurts the servers they flood and the ones they flee.
22. Reduce use of AoE power drains by range or greater cool downs.
23. Remove ever present dread effects that seem to always surround TA.

OMG,

I will finish your post for you.

1/ Cut all creeps morale enough so I can one shot them all with quick shot and pose at the same time.

2/ If a creep hits you once, give all freeps a new skill I win button. Upon pressing said button all creeps bend over apply lube and wait for it.

3/ Give all freeps Howitzers, Laser guns, Grenades, Rocket Launchers, Rocket packs, Throat lossengers, Swiss Army Knives with Aoe one shot mode or mode 2, one shot a greenie from gv to grams ability, Awacs, Orbital space stations that fire flying monkeys who bite ankles which turn Purple, your toe nails fall off and attack your eyes and Tanks.

Jesus Christ be honest in your post and just say I want a win button and I want one now. I bet you walk around your house saying nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf.

Plain to see where your allegances are mate.

signed I want a laser gun.

honestly though rk's armor sucks they get chewed up so fast if any group concentrates fire they are a null threat. If you have 10 solo creeps and only 1 focuses on the rk yes you are going pay. But, you should know better, just like freeps take out wls to avoid rezes you can take out rks to avoid the dps. Most coordinated creep raids will take out mini's and rk's first.

imo fix some of the exploits and the bugs, thats a great start. I dont know that there are staggering imbalances, minor tweeks sure, but being the numbers are so lopsided its hard to tell how apparent they would be in an even fight. Then offer rewards for freeps to come out and play. Problem with having no rewards in an mmorpg is there is no character development and being thats what a large population are playing for they dont even consider coming out.

Actually I thought the list was pretty succinct summary of the posts.

I would say this (after reading the summary) most of the posts about reducing effectiveness or extending cool downs on certain skills "appear" to be directed primarily at creep skills. I think that IF and a big IF adjustments were made, then the related skill on the opposing side should have the same restraints.

+ If Spider webbing was extended on cool down and reduced AoE, then the same should hold true for Lore master Tar.
+If cool down on WL rez is extended, then all RK, Min Capt and other in combat rezzes should be also.
+ If spider & warg, (and reaver?) DoT's are reduced, then the same holds equally true for Hunters (barbed arrow), champs, wardens, etc.
+DR is applied to CJ's then it should apply to wargs, burgs, spiders, guardians and whoever else. On the same note - shouldn't burg "tricks" be on DR also?

There in lies the problem in order to make "balance" really effective. Without classes being mirror images of themselves, there will also be people who feel another opposing class is OP. Although I think some adjustments need to be made - the larger picture of rewards for freeps to come to the moors as well as maps and keep adjustments would increase the "fun". I think if freeps had some way to "map back into" a fight sooner - they would whine less about WL rezzes (from what I saw when I was on freep side - WL rez = much more reknown cause I get to kill someone again.)

And before someone says I'm viewing this through "Creep eyes" only, I was out on my burg freep side a week ago. Although I do think it is harder than it was on freep side - I think the primary problem is still... wait for it.... wait for it

Communication and teamwork. (there was little vent usage, little intel or communication in OOC, everyone was randomly running around). When someone finally got a group organized they seemed to hold their own quite nicely. I do think the for the most part there is just a metric **** load of creeps compared to freeps 80% of the time in the moors. I think if the freeps had rewards and more incentive to come out (and they worked together) a lot of the balance issue talk would diminish. I've been PvE side leveling a new hobbit guardian (now level 24) since it's been a little boring on the action in the moors. I think a fairly easy win for the dev's to create incentive for freeps would be to roll out a "medallion" for the moors (similiar to Lothlorien and moria) that could be traded in for armor, LI's, pots or something like that. Base it upon gaining ranks in the moors (1 @ rank 1, 4 @ rank 2, or something like that) obviously the balance for time put in to rank and pay off for the work needs to be considered.

I was about to post using your 3 steps, but i honestly cant.

The problem with SoM is the gray line is paper thin between OP|balance|OP.
Quick example - 3v3 x2 DPS+healer no CDs used.
WL(r11) RvR(r11) Warg(r10) vs
Top Champ, Hunter and Cappy.

Creeps won without a fight.
We swapped out the Hunter for myself (LM)
Freeps won without a fight three times in a row.
They swapped a Defiler for WL - same result but easier for Freeps.

The balance can swap that fast in SoM compared to MoM its staggering.

IMO creeps dont need a nerf, freeps dont need a buff . Alot of events players face are due to the unpredictability of the moors. Having just 2-3 different classes in any fellow/raid fight can make all the difference on freepside between a immortal raid and a easy wipe.

That is why giving ranked freep classes some skills to start closing this gap with help the moors indefinitely. Only problem is giving too much, then those classes which once filled in those roles arnt needed, making freeps unstoppable.
Having a mini+cappy+guard+rk healing+burg+lm is virtually a unbreakable wall that creeps cannot break through, but how often do you see these combinations? Thats the problem, freeps relay on other classes when it comes to the fast pace style of the moors. In PvE a LM can become a support healer, in PvMP no way.

Giving traits and rewards for high ranked freeps is the best improvement for the moors atm. Ability to add Fire/Acid defense for mitigation's to counter stack-able dots.
Armor sets based for the moors without radiance to keep PvE players happy - also stat bonus's for there class. A bonus which will actually help instead of being an utter joke like the ones currently.

My opinion on Maps, AoE rezzs etc? Keep them, when freeps have a solid core of classes going against even number of creeps, the freeps are extremely tough to kill. But having a unbalanced freep group vs a creep group biased towards A-B-C type of class, then freeps wipe easily. Main problem is having such reliance on other classes for freeps - rewards for rank would help.

Also having such effects of Poison the Hoardale would help bring more side quests into the moors. We currently have Capture the Flag, but would like to see more of these.

Ocka.

I agree with Hell, it is a numbers thing. I have been playing my minstrel for the past week and when I get invited to groups I am thrilled.. other times I just solo and for me that is no fun.

Most of the freeps seem welcome to anyone playing out there but there are a handful that make rude comments. The handful must like the number imbalance.

A QUICK REMINDER REGARDING THE PURPOSE OF THIS POST:

The Original Poster's intent is to cause an honest and civil expression of perceived problems with PvMP & Ettenmoors play.

The requested form of the answer is to prompt thought and avoid knee-jerk reactions and flames.

Please do your best to keep to the requested response form and do not respond directly to the responses of other posters.

Lets get the perceived issues all out then in the end we'll order & rank them. When we know and rank the issues then we can turn our heads towards how to make them come about.

Originally Posted by LegOverLass

OMG,

I will finish your post for you.

1/ Cut all creeps morale enough so I can one shot them all with quick shot and pose at the same time.

2/ If a creep hits you once, give all freeps a new skill I win button. Upon pressing said button all creeps bend over apply lube and wait for it.

3/ Give all freeps Howitzers, Laser guns, Grenades, Rocket Launchers, Rocket packs, Throat lossengers, Swiss Army Knives with Aoe one shot mode or mode 2, one shot a greenie from gv to grams ability, Awacs, Orbital space stations that fire flying monkeys who bite ankles which turn Purple, your toe nails fall off and attack your eyes and Tanks.

Jesus Christ be honest in your post and just say I want a win button and I want one now. I bet you walk around your house saying nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf.

Plain to see where your allegances are mate.

At least play freepside on any toon at LEAST to rank 8 or 9 before you make those claims. It just shows how one sided you are.

The quote below is quite spot on and is what would be needed to balance the moors a little more.

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

I want to thank everyone for their responses and I encourage you to continue responding. I am particularly impressed with the thoughtfulness and civility of your responses.

So far, the following items seem to the the condensed list of changes people would like to see in the moors. In no particular order they are:

1. Generally balance the effective fighting population in the moors though incentives to play. Encourage an increase in Freep population with carefully crafted incentives.
2. Make web the earth effective rage the same as its visual appearance.
3. Make Spider skill web the earth exactly like Lore Master’s tar. Alternatively, give diminishing returns on effects when not standing directly in the web. (Hunter's Quick Shot + Strength Stance was DR'd)
4. Fix the issue with chain CJs or eliminate all CJs in the Ettenmoors.
5. Significantly increase cool down for War Leader skill "On your feet" and limit it to players in the war leader's actual fellowship Group (not even raid wide) .
6. Ettenmoors should be expanded upon or linked to another PvMP Area or changes made with Delving so that the area can be used more frequently for combat area.
7. Seriously nerf armor of RK's - they are far from the "glass cannon” they were intended.
8. Create a gated system in the keeps to prevent keep ninjas. Create a couple of impassable barricades protected by NPCs that disappear when the NPCs are cleared. Eliminate the flag taking portion of the keep takedown.
9. Generally diminish and limit the use of DoTs. Make combat more hit oriented; DPS is currently too focused on DoTs. Limit DOT and DoT stacks. Salves & potions should give a short duration immunity to the effect they cure. DOT skills that stack should have DR that limit their damage and duration. No DoT should be incurable.
10. Creeps should get out of combat mount-like movement (including mount and dismount animation timers). Maps should be removed from the moors, except for a map to GV / Grams.
11. Desperate flight needs to be returned to the moors. Its removal stands a monument to the developer’s sympathetic ear to creeps and indifference to Freep concerns.
12. Freeps and creeps should never be able to get out of range of Infamy or Renown payoff in case the target dies.
13. Heartseeker should no longer have a yellow crosshair.
14. Inescapable traps should stop Reaver's charge.
15. Warg flags should no longer be visible to freeps.
16. Web the earth needs to have a longer cool down, and less of an affected area.
17. Add collision detection between freeps and creeps.
18. Remove critical protection corruptions. 'Front-loaded' damage in most cases relies on crit's whereas Creep DoT is easy to apply and forget. Conceptual difference between Potential damage VS. Applied damage, DoT's being applied crits aren’t landing and often times simply miss altogether.
19. Significantly increase the cool down time on War Leader's Skill "Field Promotion" aka War Leader Bubble.
20. BPE (&M). Remove Block from all creeps excepting War Leaders. Then diminish Perry, Evade and mitigations on all creeps slightly.
21. Do not allow creep transfers. If they want a creep on a server then make them start from scratch. It hurts the servers they flood and the ones they flee.
22. Reduce use of AoE power drains by range or greater cool downs.
23. Remove ever present dread effects that seem to always surround TA.

Originally Posted by RGilthanas

At least play freepside on any toon at LEAST to rank 8 or 9 before you make those claims. It just shows how one sided you are.

The quote below is quite spot on and is what would be needed to balance the moors a little more.

All those things are completely one sided too, so telling sean he doesn't know what he is talking about is BS. Pretty much everything stated is a nerf to creeps, so that just shows you how one sided YOU are.

Originally Posted by Jerkan

All those things are completely one sided too, so telling sean he doesn't know what he is talking about is BS. Pretty much everything stated is a nerf to creeps, so that just shows you how one sided YOU are.

Maybe you should consider that creepside is blatantly op right now which is why those 'fixes' are needed.

Sorry, what rank are your freeps?

Originally Posted by RGilthanas

Maybe you should consider that creepside is blatantly op right now which is why those 'fixes' are needed.

Im not saying creepside isn't more powerful now than before but how does making hunters completely OP once again fix all that?

You give hunters the ability to 1 shot creeps from stealth and then DF before anyone even knows what happen and you think this would add ballance? Really? Are you that delusional?

Originally Posted by RGilthanas

Sorry, what rank are your freeps?

Sorry, what exactly does that have to do with anything? I chose not to play freepside on this server because I just plain dont like the people and can you seriously blame me for that?

Originally Posted by Jerkan

Im not saying creepside isn't more powerful now than before but how does making hunters completely OP once again fix all that?

You give hunters the ability to 1 shot creeps from stealth and then DF before anyone even knows what happen and you think this would add ballance? Really? Are you that delusional?

Seems to me that you're the delusional one sir. You seem to think it's ok for BA's not to have the crosshairs, plus have a 5 target AOE uruk heal, even though it may heal a fully healed creep, it's still very, very powerful, especially a 100% heal on the run. I will agree that freepside's frontloaded DPS needs to be scaled back a tad, especially tactical classes. Personally, I would be VERY happy to trade my minstrel's dps for the survivability of a defiler.

Originally Posted by Jerkan

Sorry, what exactly does that have to do with anything? I chose not to play freepside on this server because I just plain dont like the people and can you seriously blame me for that?

Because it shows that you've experienced both sides to give an argument properly with ALL the facts and experience. I don't like some freeps, just like I don't like some creeps, but it doesn't stop me from playing whatever side I choose.

Originally Posted by RGilthanas

Maybe you should consider that creepside is blatantly op right now which is why those 'fixes' are needed.

Sorry, what rank are your freeps?

I'm not getting into a pissing contest with you Rae, but listing 23 nerfs to creeps is way over the top. If you cant see that you have lost it mate. I dont play freep Rae because I always hated it. So many clicks and far to much drama. I admit to having not played freep on this server but I hear the **** in vent about what is said on the other side and it just sounds the same.

On an other note, I wish the poster of the 23 nerfs could put a toon at the bottom of his post that shows he even plays in the moors. Level 50 with no rank?

Originally Posted by RGilthanas

Seems to me that you're the delusional one sir. You seem to think it's ok for BA's not to have the crosshairs, plus have a 5 target AOE uruk heal, even though it may heal a fully healed creep, it's still very, very powerful, especially a 100% heal on the run.

Where did I say BA's shouldn't have cross hairs on VT? I didn't.

When does Uruk heal ever work as intended? Hardly ever.

Where do these items appear in the list quoted? Right...

Originally Posted by RGilthanas

Because it shows that you've experienced both sides to give an argument properly with ALL the facts and experience. I don't like some freeps, just like I don't like some creeps, but it doesn't stop me from playing whatever side I choose.

Your attitude of "you only know both sides if your rank 8+ on both sides" is the reason people like me dont want to freep, if you aren't a vet freep your opinion doesn't matter even if you have spend more time in the moors than half of the vet freeps out there.

what happened to the wonderful no flaming attitude in this thread?

Originally Posted by Jerkan

Your attitude of "you only know both sides if your rank 8+ on both sides" is the reason people like me dont want to freep, if you aren't a vet freep your opinion doesn't matter even if you have spend more time in the moors than half of the vet freeps out there.

Have to say Rae, the mexican has it spot on here.

Originally Posted by Fasin

what happened to the wonderful no flaming attitude in this thread?

Sorry Fasin,

I had to call bs on a poster with 23 creep nerfs and no changes to freeps in any way.

I am just another mad Irishman I guess.

Originally Posted by LegOverLass

Have to say Rae, the mexican has it spot on here.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm trying to make a point. I would think it's completely obvious that creepside does have it very well in this book.

I love Sopot, he tells like it is, which is what I like. No fluff please, unless you're a professional fluffer.

Sean, you're good in my books too.....mate.

Originally Posted by Jerkan

Your attitude of "you only know both sides if your rank 8+ on both sides" is the reason people like me dont want to freep, if you aren't a vet freep your opinion doesn't matter even if you have spend more time in the moors than half of the vet freeps out there.

Believe me, I don't like that attitude either, but when people (creeps) constantly say general comments like "no, don't nerf creeps" or "Creepside is fine" without having any long term experience on freepside to justify that argument makes me do a facepalm and headshake. It's no different than saying a Private should be a Colonel in an army, just because he has a high education, such as a Masters or a Doctorate. The point is, EXPERIENCE is vital to making proper arguments.

No one, in their right minds or ones that play a Burg/Warg, can justify that spammable CJ's are ok, without ANY chance of a fight. Well....I guess it's more directed at Wargs. Not to diminish CC in any way, which is why I love the DR, however cr*ppy it is still. I do remember the days of being locked down by a LM, watching him/her kill 4 creeps at once, solo. I don't enjoy it on freepside just as much as I didn't enjoy it back in the day.

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

A. Give the Creeps cookies.
B. So i can say come to the evil side, we have cookies!
C. umm..

Originally Posted by StrixVaria

PLEASE READ MY ENTIRE POST BEFORE YOU ANSWER. I've been playing in the Ettenmoors for quite a while now and I think play there is at its absolute lowest point ever. I am looking for constructive solutions not a series of juvenile flames. Some of us have played both sides and can offer a fair comparison of skills and some have only played one side or the other. Accept that there will be differing views and state only your own opinion from your experience.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO RESPOND TO THIS POST please (1) quote this original post. (2) do not respond directly to another person's response and (3) answer the following questions for each suggested change:

(A) What specific changes do you suggest for the Ettenmoors.
(B) Why should these changes be made?
(C) how will they improve game play in the Ettenmoors?

I honestly think that the way to revitalize pvp in our beloved game is to sandbox it. Give the freeps 6 basic classes like we have and then make them grind maps like we do and make them rank up to unlock more powerful skills just like we have too. NO MOUNTS.

Originally Posted by CandiceAurora

Again, I think arenas would be a good idea. Kinship points could be fun to earn, and in the end a lot of people enjoy pre-set matches, such as one verses ones, duos, trios, etc. It gives an alternative to when one side is getting smashed to pieces, and allows for new people to see a small group fight and gain an understanding of how creep classes work together, and what their skills are.

Sorry for moving the topic off, I realize this probably wasn't what you intended, so I'll refrain from pointing out why some of the ideas are fundamentally flawed.
Sorry if this post is mangled, I'm feeling about that!

+cookiez for this one!

Originally Posted by Jerkan

...I just plain dont like the people ...

Not even the people from the MEO days? Come on, you know you just need a group hug.

But on the subject. I don't know much about all the skills that different classes can use (I only play a guardian(PvE) and warg). So my warg tactic is just to slow/stun the freeps and once they stop start clawing at them. Therefore I have no clue what classes are OP (if any).

What surprises me when I am in the Moors is that when I hear someone calling on ventrilo that the freeps are at STAB in no time creeps join the fight. But when I die (I am pretty skilled at that) and run back I still see small groups of freeps around on other locations. Don't they use vent or do they just like to run around in small groups and get smashed by packs of creeps? Although I go into bloodrage when I smell a burglar now, I think they at least figured out how to play the game: stick together and attack. If you wait for the creeps to attack you are just reacting and therefore always one step behind. Then they take out the healers and the battle is pretty much over. The best defence is still a good offence.
From PvE I know that a lot of players have some form of grudge against one player or anothers. Do they carry that grudge to the moors? If so, you already lost. When I play my cute little warg I will try to help every creep that is getting attacked (unless it is 6vs1 because I am not that suicidal yet ) even if I don't like that person.

I do agree that freeps need more incentives to rank up. A nice looking icon next to your vitals just doesn't do it. Wouldn't it be possible to give them another set of traits which they could slot for use just in the moors? A similar setup is already used in the skirmishes, so it shouldn't be that hard to do right? Then the devs have something they can fine tune without messing with the PvE part of the game.
And let them have the same sort of maps that the creeps do. Only make them skills instead of items, because freeps tend to have pretty full bags already. Of course they would have to trade it for the use of their mounts.
These 2 changes alone might draw some more numbers which in itself goes a long way to bringing balance. If the freeps then also decide to group instead of trying to go solo they might even need to get smacked by the nerf bat. IMHO the problem is numbers and communication/teamwork. A group of 10 freeps can cause serious havoc. Focus your attack (communication), kill the healers first and don't wait for the creeps to make the first move. Because that means you will lose your healers before you even start the fight.

Just my noobish 2 cents.