Thread: Some help for a down-hearted LM

So,

I'm a returning player... was in beta and first bit of live, and newly find some time on my hands to enjoy the game again.

My effort has been poured into a lvl40 LM. Doubt about having this as my main char is starting to creep in, and I would love some perspective and inspiration from more experienced players.

Here's my dillema:

This is in no way a troll, or a gripe, I enjoy my LM, but I've run a few instances, fellowship quests, group skirms, etc. with a fantastic Kin... but I've been really challenged to find a role while I'm there. It seems to me that though I have a lot of roles to offer, none of them really measure up to having a similar focused class in that role.

I've taken a warden to +30 and am fiddling with a Guard right now... and there seems a night and day difference.

Help me understand, what can I really bring to the table that isn't already out there and done better by another more focused class?


Here's the impression I've been getting about my future as an LM:

Healing:
Mins and rk's spam heal to the point I rarely need to hit that heal button with its long cooldown. When I do, the balance of the battle is usually so far gone that it's not a gamechanger. The res is cute, and handy if you're the only squishy left.

CC:
Sure, CC is cute... and should be a gamechanger. Everyone I've seen seems to charge right thru any tactical CC, and about the only use is pausing mobs for people to beat on until the mez breaks. Read what I could find on end-game and most posts seem to indicate CC is not required. Have yet to hear anyone say "Hey LM, keep that mob stunned".

DPS:
So this is where we shine? I've read a lost of boasts about aoe damage with the game's later skills and traits... but have yet to see any chatter of a serious nature about raids and end-game power groups making sure to "bring along that LM".

Power:
The lvl 65 LM in my guild has passed along that our real role is as a power battery end-game. By "healing" power, we can keep people hitting harder, longer, and burning thru content faster.

To be honest, you've hit the nail on the head. LMs just aren't as useful (nor required) as they used to be.

There's really only one fight that *requires* an LM, and that's the hardest boss in the hardest raid. I've done every other instance without an LM successfully. Even then, one LM is more than enough for the entire BG raid, and I'll bet the LT isn't far off from being done without an LM anyway.

I've played my LM through every ounce of content that Turbine has thrown at us since the game launched (and have done so successfully), but yet to see any reason to bring one along over another DPS class for 99% of the group content that has been released.

That said, a good LM will make their presence known. Our burst AoE DPS is better than any other class in the game, and even our single-target damage can be respectable. Sure, we *can* CC stuff; sure, we *can* bring out a ninja-turtle on stilts (ie, bog lurker); sure, we *can* debuff a mob to oblivion... but like you said, all of that equals little more than "cute".

Unfortunately, it's a "bring your DPS game or take your ball home" kind of deal right now. I hope that will change soon.

Level 40 is a tough time to LMs. If you keep going it does get better. FG is much easier with an LM with the group wound removal. Also once you get your ledgendary you can trait and buff healing if you like that roll. I've healed SH numerous times and have even two-manned it with a hunter. The CC does get better as well, as does the benefits of your pet. In short, if you take the time to develope your character you will likely be very satisfied.

Originally Posted by Celdin

Level 40 is a tough time to LMs. If you keep going it does get better. FG is much easier with an LM with the group wound removal. Also once you get your ledgendary you can trait and buff healing if you like that roll. I've healed SH numerous times and have even two-manned it with a hunter. The CC does get better as well, as does the benefits of your pet. In short, if you take the time to develope your character you will likely be very satisfied.

I totally understand what with not being 65 I don't yet have all the tricks that make the class whole.

I'm struggling to make the time commitment to reach end game if I can't really put my finger on what the class is for, and I have to make that justification for others just to earn my keep.

Originally Posted by Agern

I totally understand what with not being 65 I don't yet have all the tricks that make the class whole.

I'm struggling to make the time commitment to reach end game if I can't really put my finger on what the class is for, and I have to make that justification for others just to earn my keep.

Well to be honest at level 40 you aren't going to have much of a important role, once you hit 50 and do some of the old instances it'll be much more important. (asuming you're doing it with other lvl 50s or so, if you run it with a 65 then there's not much challenge in anything. At 60 there's even more grouping and the instances/raids have much more use for a LM. Then at 65 you'll have more grouping to do. 40 is an aqward phase for a LM, just get a few more levels and you'll begin to see the light.

Just remember you'll never have a main role like tanking or healing, maybe dps on occasion, but you are quite simply a support class, you do what's needed when it's needed, if there's too Many to handle you CC (were the gods of cc unmatched by any other class), we keep the healers alive and give them power, we use our heal whenever needed (trust me there will be times when beacon of hope saves someone and gives the mainhealers a chance to take over). If you want to do a more prominant role choose a tank, healer, or heavy dps'er

I think the OP has begun to scratch a little under the surface of the present dilemma the LM class currently operates (some may substitute the word "suffers" here) under of late. To wit, our role has become rather ill-defined at the top tier of current game play.

One thing I absolutely abhor in any MMO is the pigeon-holing that takes place at high levels. The LM perhaps more so than another other class in LOTRO works under this stigma because we are so versatile, at least on paper. The powers-that-be (i.e., Turbine) have determined that crowd-control is apparently out-of-place in the end-game, so many PvE encounters include mobs that completely ignore any attempt at our strong suit. And while it has been acknowledged that debuffs (and tangentially, resists) are out of whack, there's no certainty as of this writing when or how it will be addressed. Suddenly in a sea of versatility, we've become a one-trick pony: suit up for maximum damage, or stay home. This doesn't sit well with me, for any number of reasons, not the least of which is any creativity required in bygone days to play the class has been usurped by a handful of "nuke 'em til they glow" skills, which any reasonably gifted primate of average intelligence can grasp with next to no effort.

If crowd control is no longer viable as we arrive at this stage of the game, then it would be best to remove this from our collective resume's and give us some options that will restore utility and desirability back to us without us being simply a replaceable body capable of pushing three buttons. Same holds true for debuffing and pet usage. If we are to be nothing more from here out than nukers who moonlight as a battery for the rest of the paying customers, then let those of us who aren't interested in such a narrowly-defined role know now so we can cash in our chips and be on our way.

Removing one of our class-defining roles (CC) was, frankly, the beggardly solution to making end-game content challenging. Setting us up with a large array of skills whose very design was to help control the flow of battle for fifty-odd levels, and then summarily eviscerating those very skills (only after we've invested many hours into developing our characters to that point) was cheap and lacked any of the creativity that came to be a hallmark of this game and this class in particular. I'd strongly suggest before another level cap is introduced (and the potential for more of the anemic skills introduced with the last update even crosses the minds of the developers), that you (Turbine) do a grass-roots re-assessment of the class and its role before folks start voicing their discontent with their feet and their wallets.

/rant_off

De-buffing?

From my impressions of LM especially from a raid centric orientation the biggest tool the LM brings to the table over other classes is their debuffing capabilities. As amonceleb said the maths of the debuffs are currently bugged (being fixed in the next major patch) however normally these debuffs can change a fight from being extrememly difficult to merely challenging.

DPS seems to be to be more of a class role in smaller instances, especially 3 mans with another healer and a tank, and much less useful in larger groups.

CC is still very important for sections of raids, especially in the blind one and the mistress (and to a lesser extent the LT if someone dies). Not to mention throughout BG between boss 1 and 2.

Having said that I'm still a very noob lm myself and still learning, but i do feel the class is crucial in raid situations and boss fights at high level

./2cents

The thing about LMs is that they really aren't needed for easy to moderate difficulty content but for the really tough stuff they can make or break a fight. Although our debuffs are currently less powerful than the tooltips state (being fixed in next update) when working properly they can turn a hard fight into a cake walk. We are capable of taking a mob's damage down to less than half of its normal amount. The other thing we are really prized for is power management but that is only in raids.

Of course our CC is beyond compare but these days its not needed that often. Except in PvMP that is

Originally Posted by uf001

that Said, A Good Lm Will Make Their Presence Known. Our Burst Aoe Dps Is Better Than Any Other Class In The Game (except Champions) And Even Our Single-target Damage Can Be Respectable.

Ftfy :d

/12345

Originally Posted by Amonceleb

I think the OP has begun to scratch a little under the surface of the present dilemma the LM class currently operates (some may substitute the word "suffers" here) under of late. To wit, our role has become rather ill-defined at the top tier of current game play.

One thing I absolutely abhor in any MMO is the pigeon-holing that takes place at high levels. The LM perhaps more so than another other class in LOTRO works under this stigma because we are so versatile, at least on paper. The powers-that-be (i.e., Turbine) have determined that crowd-control is apparently out-of-place in the end-game, so many PvE encounters include mobs that completely ignore any attempt at our strong suit. And while it has been acknowledged that debuffs (and tangentially, resists) are out of whack, there's no certainty as of this writing when or how it will be addressed. Suddenly in a sea of versatility, we've become a one-trick pony: suit up for maximum damage, or stay home. This doesn't sit well with me, for any number of reasons, not the least of which is any creativity required in bygone days to play the class has been usurped by a handful of "nuke 'em til they glow" skills, which any reasonably gifted primate of average intelligence can grasp with next to no effort.

If crowd control is no longer viable as we arrive at this stage of the game, then it would be best to remove this from our collective resume's and give us some options that will restore utility and desirability back to us without us being simply a replaceable body capable of pushing three buttons. Same holds true for debuffing and pet usage. If we are to be nothing more from here out than nukers who moonlight as a battery for the rest of the paying customers, then let those of us who aren't interested in such a narrowly-defined role know now so we can cash in our chips and be on our way.

Removing one of our class-defining roles (CC) was, frankly, the beggardly solution to making end-game content challenging. Setting us up with a large array of skills whose very design was to help control the flow of battle for fifty-odd levels, and then summarily eviscerating those very skills (only after we've invested many hours into developing our characters to that point) was cheap and lacked any of the creativity that came to be a hallmark of this game and this class in particular. I'd strongly suggest before another level cap is introduced (and the potential for more of the anemic skills introduced with the last update even crosses the minds of the developers), that you (Turbine) do a grass-roots re-assessment of the class and its role before folks start voicing their discontent with their feet and their wallets.

/rant_off

Fantastic summation of where where the LM finds itself at this time.

We are so versatile and a jack of many trades, master of perhaps one (CC, depending on how you are traited). We are dispensable for most group content....I would like to see us more "needed" again.

It is relatively rare that a LM is ESSENTIAL to content completion.
Other classes can usually fill the gaps.
But that is pretty much the case with ALL classes.
Due to the ability to trait our characters in different ways, for different purposes, we all can wear a number of hats.
Read these forums, or talk to any number of people in-game and you'll hear great stories of how any content can be completed with any number of class combinations.

I believe this is a strength of LoTRO. It allows players to be far more imaginative and adaptable in their approach to the content. (In fact, folks usually resent it when they feel forced into bringing an exact class combination.)

It is also a strength of the game that any class, when skillfully played, can make a huge difference.
Liffey put it well above. A good LM can most definitely make his presence known. If you learn to play your class well, you'll be in demand.

Some LMs I think concentrate too much on a perceived negation of one of our roles, CC. (though I do agree that it is very annoying that the devs see fit to "increase difficulty" by simply granting CC immunity. copout.) Yeah, in many cases, huge DPS can take the place of CC, but hey, due to players having options, the opposite is often true too. The purely DPS classes arent truly needed all the time, because there are different ways to get through content than just mowing everything down a light speed. (and even when DPS is key, non-dps classes can also trait for DPS.) It's all about options.

The difference with the LM, I think, is the comparative complexity of the skillset. Playing an LM well, maximizing our usefulness in any situation, involves more than some other classes. (it is labeled an "advanced" class after all)
To truly stand out as vaulable and important, as an LM, you've really gotta know your stuff, what you're capable of.

There are more factors to keep track of in fights.

-Watch wounds/disease carefully.
-If CC is needed, it needs to be done well. Skillfull CC should impose the least possible limits on others abilities in a fight. (ex: dont mez mobs in champs AE range, etc) And it should have minimal impact on the steady flow of the fight. It takes practice.
-Power levels need to be watched.
-Debuffs should be constantly maintained in the tougher fights.
-Our burst corruption removal can be very useful.
-Even our pet buffs/debuffs can be very helpful.
-Stun immunity maintained on the right people, at the right times
-(whoa... got a little too long-winded here. I'll stop now hehe)

Originally Posted by Agern

.....


Here's the impression I've been getting about my future as an LM:

Healing:
Mins and rk's spam heal to the point I rarely need to hit that heal button with its long cooldown. When I do, the balance of the battle is usually so far gone that it's not a gamechanger. The res is cute, and handy if you're the only squishy left.

CC:
Sure, CC is cute... and should be a gamechanger. Everyone I've seen seems to charge right thru any tactical CC, and about the only use is pausing mobs for people to beat on until the mez breaks. Read what I could find on end-game and most posts seem to indicate CC is not required. Have yet to hear anyone say "Hey LM, keep that mob stunned".

DPS:
So this is where we shine? I've read a lost of boasts about aoe damage with the game's later skills and traits... but have yet to see any chatter of a serious nature about raids and end-game power groups making sure to "bring along that LM".

Power:
The lvl 65 LM in my guild has passed along that our real role is as a power battery end-game. By "healing" power, we can keep people hitting harder, longer, and burning thru content faster.

You completely left out debuffing which is probably not a mistake. Too many players do not understand the impact the debuffing role can make. If a leader calls for some debuffs (one would naturally assume they do know), but don't know all the debuffs, that does not indicate understanding in my book. Don't be mislead by the players who claim our debuffing role is now useless. The statistics accumulated so far indicate the effects are tiering down a little really only with the elite mobs, the higher the elite the more the decrease. That is only a small part of quests and the effect is still significant.

Debuffing can make or break a fellowships success without a doubt. As well as power, as well as wounds (some of them are huge). As well as taking ranged out of a battle with mezs or pets. There are many other examples.

True much content can be rolled thru with out a problem, but then tanks aren't getting any action in that senario either for that matter.

But none of this is very flashy and a support role is not for everybody.

Originally Posted by Amonceleb

I think the OP has begun to scratch a little under the surface of the present dilemma the LM class currently operates (some may substitute the word "suffers" here) under of late. To wit, our role has become rather ill-defined at the top tier of current game play.

One thing I absolutely abhor in any MMO is the pigeon-holing that takes place at high levels. The LM perhaps more so than another other class in LOTRO works under this stigma because we are so versatile, at least on paper. The powers-that-be (i.e., Turbine) have determined that crowd-control is apparently out-of-place in the end-game, so many PvE encounters include mobs that completely ignore any attempt at our strong suit. And while it has been acknowledged that debuffs (and tangentially, resists) are out of whack, there's no certainty as of this writing when or how it will be addressed. Suddenly in a sea of versatility, we've become a one-trick pony: suit up for maximum damage, or stay home. This doesn't sit well with me, for any number of reasons, not the least of which is any creativity required in bygone days to play the class has been usurped by a handful of "nuke 'em til they glow" skills, which any reasonably gifted primate of average intelligence can grasp with next to no effort.

If crowd control is no longer viable as we arrive at this stage of the game, then it would be best to remove this from our collective resume's and give us some options that will restore utility and desirability back to us without us being simply a replaceable body capable of pushing three buttons. Same holds true for debuffing and pet usage. If we are to be nothing more from here out than nukers who moonlight as a battery for the rest of the paying customers, then let those of us who aren't interested in such a narrowly-defined role know now so we can cash in our chips and be on our way.

Removing one of our class-defining roles (CC) was, frankly, the beggardly solution to making end-game content challenging. Setting us up with a large array of skills whose very design was to help control the flow of battle for fifty-odd levels, and then summarily eviscerating those very skills (only after we've invested many hours into developing our characters to that point) was cheap and lacked any of the creativity that came to be a hallmark of this game and this class in particular. I'd strongly suggest before another level cap is introduced (and the potential for more of the anemic skills introduced with the last update even crosses the minds of the developers), that you (Turbine) do a grass-roots re-assessment of the class and its role before folks start voicing their discontent with their feet and their wallets.

/rant_off

I agree 100%.

It dosen't sit right with me that we are focused on CC and debuffs and then become second rate damage after Mirkwood. The entire.. 'trait for damage' leaves us (in my opinion) to difficult soloing and with the feeling of not being true to the classes beginings.

Originally Posted by Rthen

The entire.. 'trait for damage' leaves us (in my opinion) to difficult soloing and with the feeling of not being true to the classes beginings.

"difficult soloing"? What class are you playing? lol

To the OP -- there are a lot of quality points made above. I would add only that the LM is what you make it. A poorly played LM will add little to no value to any group, but a well-played LM is often the difference between success and a wipe. Don't assume that non-LM players know what we're up to -- much like the Burglar our contributions often fly under the radar, but are invaluable nonetheless.

I started a LM to pvmp, is now lv 32.

What would make a LM more wanted in anny part of the game is veary simple. Remove a couple of CC skill that other classe have and let this role to the LM. When you have a couple classe that can mez, root, fear what ever the cc it is, a lot of time you have anough of cc so the LM is not nessecary. But still LM looks to have the best AOE debuuf and dps stuff. Burglar have good one target debuff and dmg bonus but one target. The Lm is good when there is a bunch of monster to take care. IMO its a AOE classe that can deal DPS, debuff and CC.

I don't know what most of the people in this thread are talking about to be honest. Since when is CC useless in high level instances? CC is a useful commodity in each of BG, SG, and DN. That's the two highest level raids in the game and the highest level 6 man.

LM fills a valuable role in the highest level group content in the game right now. We bring so much to the table that it's hard not to be valuable. Debuffs, CC, Power management, stun immunity, wound removal, corruption removal, silence cure, interrupts, healing, and yes some dps. LMs are valuable in a group setting. Not required, no class is or should be required, but definitely useful.

LMs suffer from the same sorts of things that all other support classes do...most people don't really know what they can do. They get pigeon-holed into CC and being batteries because those are flashy things that people see.

Often if you are an LM in a group, no one will say a thing to you unless it is "I need power" or "mezz XXX". It's up to you to do all the other stuff that quietly makes the run successful, even if no one knows why. It's kind of funny, but so many people discount buffs and debuffs. They work silently in the background with no fanfare, but they can absolutely make or break a fight.

Similarly, most people think that LM pets are just annoying and in the way, but they can do more than just look cute (or ugly in some cases). If I remember correctly, Ravens have an interrupt skill. Given that there are SO many mobs out there that have devastating skills that can be interrupted, doesn't it make sense to have some backup for those Clobbers? Of course they all have their specific buffs as well.


In any case, LMs are still a great class, but it can be a hard sell at times. You might need to promote your abilities rather than wait for someone to tell you what to do. If you know there's a fight where one of your skills whatever is really helpful, be sure to say something. "I'm gonna put a big fire debuff on this guy, so use fire-oils if you've got them" or "I can get all the wounds in this fight, so don't waste your pots".

If the run is successful, you'll be remembered as someone who was on top of things and did stuff that helped (even if they don't understand what you did exactly). If it isn't successful, they'll know that at least you were doing something other than playing fetch with your pet.


One last piece of advice...if you are in a group with a tank (warden, guard, or champ), do NOT suggest that your bear tank. Ever.

Originally Posted by Agern

Have yet to hear anyone say "Hey LM, keep that mob stunned".

I've heard plenty say 'keep that mob locked down' and if it isn't, the fight can go bad really fast. At the level you are now, cc may not be that important, but later on, it can be very important. One less mob to fight when you have a pile on you can be most helpful. Especially if it's a summoner or healer or something of the sort that can quickly wipe a group.

Originally Posted by Agern

Power:
The lvl 65 LM in my guild has passed along that our real role is as a power battery end-game. By "healing" power, we can keep people hitting harder, longer, and burning thru content faster.

It can seem that way, but a guard or mini without power means your group can wipe very quickly. It can be a boring job, but a useful one.

Originally Posted by Kaluu

You completely left out debuffing which is probably not a mistake. Too many players do not understand the impact the debuffing role can make.

Agreed. I am still amazed at the impacts of debuffing and they're currently not WAI.

The 30's-40's can be very rough for a LM, but once you are past those, you will only get stronger. My LM does content that none of my other characters would even attempt. To put your finger on what the class is for, that's actually a lot of things. Support class would be the best description, I guess. You can debuff mobs to make the damage they are doing up to 50% less than normal (when working correctly), you can increase their miss chance, lower their armor value, slow their attacks, slow their run speed, lower a boss mob's chance to devastate, etc. That's just debuffs. You can also lock a mob down and keep it mezzed, you can spot heal, use certain pets for certain advantages depending on the fight, use your pet's flank to heal yourself, drain power and give power to fellows, root a group of mobs to only get 1 or a couple at the time instead of the whole group, stun protect, remove disease and/or wounds, etc. So just having one role is hard to narrow down - you'll have a few. A well played LM is an asset to any group IMO.

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

Ftfy :d

/12345

Our burst AoE DPS is far superior to a champion. We just can't sustain it.

Originally Posted by Agern

So,

I'm a returning player... was in beta and first bit of live, and newly find some time on my hands to enjoy the game again.

My effort has been poured into a lvl40 LM. Doubt about having this as my main char is starting to creep in, and I would love some perspective and inspiration from more experienced players.

Here's my dillema:

This is in no way a troll, or a gripe, I enjoy my LM, but I've run a few instances, fellowship quests, group skirms, etc. with a fantastic Kin... but I've been really challenged to find a role while I'm there. It seems to me that though I have a lot of roles to offer, none of them really measure up to having a similar focused class in that role.

I've taken a warden to +30 and am fiddling with a Guard right now... and there seems a night and day difference.

Help me understand, what can I really bring to the table that isn't already out there and done better by another more focused class?


Here's the impression I've been getting about my future as an LM:

Healing:
Mins and rk's spam heal to the point I rarely need to hit that heal button with its long cooldown. When I do, the balance of the battle is usually so far gone that it's not a gamechanger. The res is cute, and handy if you're the only squishy left.

CC:
Sure, CC is cute... and should be a gamechanger. Everyone I've seen seems to charge right thru any tactical CC, and about the only use is pausing mobs for people to beat on until the mez breaks. Read what I could find on end-game and most posts seem to indicate CC is not required. Have yet to hear anyone say "Hey LM, keep that mob stunned".

DPS:
So this is where we shine? I've read a lost of boasts about aoe damage with the game's later skills and traits... but have yet to see any chatter of a serious nature about raids and end-game power groups making sure to "bring along that LM".

Power:
The lvl 65 LM in my guild has passed along that our real role is as a power battery end-game. By "healing" power, we can keep people hitting harder, longer, and burning thru content faster.

Your heals, both for yourself and others, can totally make the difference between a wipe or a death vs a win. It has a long cooldown but its a large heal and, when the burglar is dying but the minst cannot swap off the tank to save him, its significant. Keep it on reserve for when its needed -- at the higher levels, in tougher content, you will often quietly throw this out and do a great deal of good for your group.

CC is critical in some places, handy in others. Yes, often the Lm has kept a mob mezzed for 120 seconds or longer in many a raid. They also have rooted huge pulls to allow a group to kill 1 or 2 mobs before the rest arrive. And, the ability to drop a mez to break an induction is powerful later in the game too.

Dps is rarely a LM's role in a group. You have strong powers for duo/trio/solo efforts but beyond that, dps is just your ability to solo nicely and is not a real job in most groups. If you are doing dps, the content you are doing is too easy.

Yes, drain power from mob transfer to others is a large part of your job. Get used to that!

Other stuff you do: cure wounds/disease (mostly, bad wounds), provide buffs (pet ICPR for example), debuff tough mobs (bosses need fire lore on them all the time, for example), keep the tanks/healers/others immune to stuns (this can be quite a chore in some fights), debuff mobs with your bear pet (armor rend? I dunno, im not a LM but I poke my head in as its my wife's main class), air lore the tanks, etc.

Put all that together and you have
CC
spot healer
debuffer
power battery
cure/prevent wound/disease/stun
pet buffs, debuffs, and supporting roles (offtank, dps, whatever)
aoe stun/interrupts
ranged strong corruption removals
potentially strong dps with aoe
to name a few things.

Its not a niche class, doing one or two things well, its a support class that does many things as needed by the group and task at hand.

It doesn't sound like you're having any difficulty playing the class, but that you feel like a fifth wheel.

Personally, LM is my favorite class to play. Here's what I'd recommend:

First, upgrade your virtues and class traits (lots of them are easy).
At 40, get the nice 3-piece set from the Trollshaws.
At 41, slot the Sword and Staff legendary.
Do some hunting in Angmar, Misty Mountains and Forochel.
At 45, get your first legendary items from Eregion.
Do some more hunting in Forochel, High Pass and Eregion.
Then head east through Moria, Lothlorien and Mirkwood.

You can throw in skirmishes too, which are a good source of experience and essential to the Mirkwood epic questline.

Lastly, spar anyone who gave you a hard time and show them just how effective the class is.

At 40 all I did was solo/small fellowship content with my pet. I didn't really start to group until I hit my mid 50s. I think you will find that as you get into the 48+ range and you start doing at-level content with a full at-level group that your skills become more necessary and useful. Carn Dum, Uru, Rift, Helegrod, all done at level with a group/raid that is at-level, you will use everything you have just to stay alive.

We did Forges in Moria last night. We had two hunters, a Guardian, a Mini, a Cappie, and my LM. I can guarantee you I didn't feel like a fifth wheel. I had to use everything I had to help the group succeed and it turned out to be a fantastic PUG.

Hang in there, this class just keeps getting better.

I played Lore-master as my main when I first started playing over 2 years ago, took a long break around the time the Rift was released, and came back several months after Moria was released.

Upon coming back to the game I switched my main to a Minstrel and I haven't had any desire to play the LM since. When I played my LM I always felt like I wasn't doing enough or I wasn't making a major contribution to the success of an instance run.

I was always asking people to modify their behavior so that I could be more effective with CC, however that wasn't necessary usually since LOTRO content doesn't really require CC outside of a few specific occasions. Usually high DPS and good healing will get you through just about anything. And many times that you are trying to do major CC you will end up having conflicts with Champions or Hunters who like to tab for targets...

I do miss the PVP aspect of a Lore-master, but with the diminishing returns that were added to the Ettenmoors I would rather stand back and just heal as a Minstrel. At least with my Minstrel the group and myself can both see tangible results from my actions.

Thank you all for taking the time to give full and reasoned responses to this.

The Jack-of-all trades nature of the class is what always appealed to me, and I'm glad to hear it actually has some utility once I get over the lvl40ish "hump". I'll stick with, learn some more, and commit to the adventure

I ran my lvl 25 LM into the Great Barrows with a group and I got to see the full spectrum of what even a lower lvl Loremaster is capable of. I was healing the tanks, curing the party of disease, having my raven interrupt bowman, pulling a single target and most importantly controlling the flow of the battle. Got three wights? No problem. I'd run in the middle of them throw up a bane flare and let the guardian, rune-keeper and wardens hammer away at each one by one. Not that I wouldn't get in a couple of shots of my own.

Originally Posted by Agern

Thank you all for taking the time to give full and reasoned responses to this.

The Jack-of-all trades nature of the class is what always appealed to me, and I'm glad to hear it actually has some utility once I get over the lvl40ish "hump". I'll stick with, learn some more, and commit to the adventure

The only trait build that weill get you groups at 65 for SH is MONF (you will need these groups since you will need the tokens for radience gear). Most SG groups you will end up in will also require MONF despite the face CC could be helpful there, but they have a burg for that usually if they want CC. Thats fine and all but its not what the LM class was designed to be. Basiclly your job more often then not will be AOE DPS and thats it. You will also sometimes be asked to re-trait for CC and wound control but I would say the split is 80% MONF and 20% wound/cc.

Despite the 20% reduction in bard costs it will still be a fiscal strain.

A few other classes have the pain of swaping trait setups a lot but not nearly this bad. its not just a trait swap its a completely different class.

Personally I hate running MONF.. but that's just me.

Originally Posted by Rthen

The only trait build that weill get you groups at 65 for SH is MONF (you will need these groups since you will need the tokens for radience gear). Most SG groups you will end up in will also require MONF despite the face CC could be helpful there, but they have a burg for that usually if they want CC. Thats fine and all but its not what the LM class was designed to be. Basiclly your job more often then not will be AOE DPS and thats it. You will also sometimes be asked to re-trait for CC and wound control but I would say the split is 80% MONF and 20% wound/cc.

Despite the 20% reduction in bard costs it will still be a fiscal strain.

A few other classes have the pain of swaping trait setups a lot but not nearly this bad. its not just a trait swap its a completely different class.

Personally I hate running MONF.. but that's just me.

This is one perspective biased by who the person runs with. My wife's lm does not do the aoe dps spec in anything larger than 3 man groups. You could, it depends on who you have around and group with, but we use champs for the aoe dps not LMs (dunno what his kin or server looks like but we have like 10 main champs to 3 LMs, or like 20 to 5 when you include alts!). But his group has a burg, with us its usually either/or but not both in one group. He is dead on about the retrait costs, a group LM has to swap legendary traits too often at 100 silver a pop, throw in the other changes as you retrait and its 200-300 per go. Not significant (one skirmish at 65 gives 200-500 silver easy) per case but over time its a ton of money, couple of gold each week adds up.

Originally Posted by forusrname

This is one perspective biased by who the person runs with. My wife's lm does not do the aoe dps spec in anything larger than 3 man groups. You could, it depends on who you have around and group with, but we use champs for the aoe dps not LMs (dunno what his kin or server looks like but we have like 10 main champs to 3 LMs, or like 20 to 5 when you include alts!). But his group has a burg, with us its usually either/or but not both in one group. He is dead on about the retrait costs, a group LM has to swap legendary traits too often at 100 silver a pop, throw in the other changes as you retrait and its 200-300 per go. Not significant (one skirmish at 65 gives 200-500 silver easy) per case but over time its a ton of money, couple of gold each week adds up.

Agreed its just one perspective, mine.

Hopefully the OPs server is different.. unless he likes MONF... /shrug

Originally Posted by Yesler

I played Lore-master as my main when I first started playing over 2 years ago, took a long break around the time the Rift was released, and came back several months after Moria was released.

Upon coming back to the game I switched my main to a Minstrel and I haven't had any desire to play the LM since. When I played my LM I always felt like I wasn't doing enough or I wasn't making a major contribution to the success of an instance run.

I was always asking people to modify their behavior so that I could be more effective with CC, however that wasn't necessary usually since LOTRO content doesn't really require CC outside of a few specific occasions. Usually high DPS and good healing will get you through just about anything. And many times that you are trying to do major CC you will end up having conflicts with Champions or Hunters who like to tab for targets...

I do miss the PVP aspect of a Lore-master, but with the diminishing returns that were added to the Ettenmoors I would rather stand back and just heal as a Minstrel. At least with my Minstrel the group and myself can both see tangible results from my actions.

And this is a problem. Great post. How many people ended up just ditching the game because of this rather then rolling another class?

Its one thing to use heavy handed tactics to balance classes when you have millions of subscibers but quite another when you have very few.

Anyways, I hope LMs get some attention in regards to viable skills or skill upgrades that will make them wanted in groups without having to constantly re-trait. At least in the next expansion.

Honestly I thought about it.. and besaides the fact I happen to like the playstyle more then any other class I have tried i really don't realish the idea of doing all that factioning, questing, and deedtrait work (still working on deeds years later lol) again. So yeah.. this is it for me, no alt.. just my LM. The bulk of the playerbase seems to have 7 toons and tons of time on their hands.. more power to you guys.

Originally Posted by ti-pere3

I started a LM to pvmp, is now lv 32.

Sorry, but lol, good luck with that. Probably the weakest class in the 'moors now too. Someone on the dev team really, really hates loremasters.